Christian: Crazy doctrine

[sojourner]

Sorry you over my head on that one. Your gonna have to "dumb" that one down for me. hehe

Someone goes blind. For years they want their sight back. It's a handicap to them. Then, through their blindness, they discover some spiritual truth about themselves that they would not have discovered, had they not been blind. Their blindness has served as a vehicle for grace. In that case, can the handicap really be a handicap?

 

[Katzpur]

I believe in something very similar. Maybe its the same. God's elect will be teaching the undecided/uninformed of Gods word in the time before they are judged.

Yes, that sounds quite a bit like my belief. :yes:

 

[Enoch07]

Someone goes blind. For years they want their sight back. It's a handicap to them. Then, through their blindness, they discover some spiritual truth about themselves that they would not have discovered, had they not been blind. Their blindness has served as a vehicle for grace. In that case, can the handicap really be a handicap?

Not always. I think more handicapped people have turned what we would consider "weakness" into strengths, than not. Like the guy (dont remember his name) who had no feet, but developed those spring like (dont grill me I can remember names well) feet to run with. He got dq'ed from the regular Olympics because they say it gave him an unfair advantage. Even though he was "handicapped" and had no feet!

But it has nothing to do with spiritual body I was talking about. Whether you like it or not you are given a fully "healthy" perfect spirit body in Heaven. If I am not mistaken.

 

[Heneni]

Dunno what your point is exactly Heneni. Correct me if I am stepping on your toes here. But if you had one eye destroyed in life, then die later on. You will have both eyes in the afterlife. Same goes for limbs. Because God made us in His own image ( this is spiritually and physically). In our spirit bodies we are free of any defects, which include birth defects, amputations, mental handicaps, etc.

The point is, that if its possible to enter the kingdom of heaven with one eye, then the kingdom is here on earth (as well as in heaven), and then the same goes for hell. Hell is on earth, and the lake of fire is also real. You are thrown into hell, when you are thrown out of the kingdom of heaven here on earth, so you are either in the one or the other at any given time here on earth. You dont physically have to be 'thrown' into the kingdom of hell as in fall into it. You only need to step out of the kingdom of heaven here on earth and you find yourself in hell. Did i make myself more understandable this time?

Heneni

 

[emiliano]

I believe the departed souls of the believers will be spreading the gospel to the departed souls of the unbelievers.

What makes you think that? Is there a scripture that support this belief?

 

[emiliano]

I believe the departed souls of the believers will be spreading the gospel to the departed souls of the unbelievers.

Mat 12:41
The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah [is] here.
​

Mat 12:42
The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon [is] here.
​

 

[emiliano]

Do we? Seems that Jesus had (at least by some scriptural accounts) a very physical post-resurrection body...

What we are studying is where do the souls of the departed go and what do they do?
Consider that the resurrection does not happen immediately after their departure, where they are and what form is the question that we are addressing.

1Cr 15:52
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. ​

Corruptibility is a characteristic of material/physical bodies so if the dead will rise incorruptible they are not physical matter.

1Pe 1:4
to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, ​

 

[emiliano]

For those citing Mat 5:29-30 may I direct you to fact that this is an allegory, “If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast [it] from you” does not means that the Lord is suggesting that if you are tempted to sin because what the eye show your mind as desirable you should mutilate your self in order to gain entrance to the Kingdom of heavens “I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her” What you have to cast out of you in this instance is the lust that the eye show as a desirable thing. This passage des not indicate that we will have a physical body right after death.

 

[Enoch07]

The point is, that if its possible to enter the kingdom of heaven with one eye, then the kingdom is here on earth (as well as in heaven), and then the same goes for hell. Hell is on earth, and the lake of fire is also real. You are thrown into hell, when you are thrown out of the kingdom of heaven here on earth, so you are either in the one or the other at any given time here on earth. You dont physically have to be 'thrown' into the kingdom of hell as in fall into it. You only need to step out of the kingdom of heaven here on earth and you find yourself in hell. Did i make myself more understandable this time?

Heneni

kk got it. I don't necessarily agree with it. But I can respect your view.

 

[LittleNipper]

The point is, that if its possible to enter the kingdom of heaven with one eye, then the kingdom is here on earth (as well as in heaven), and then the same goes for hell. Hell is on earth, and the lake of fire is also real. You are thrown into hell, when you are thrown out of the kingdom of heaven here on earth, so you are either in the one or the other at any given time here on earth. You dont physically have to be 'thrown' into the kingdom of hell as in fall into it. You only need to step out of the kingdom of heaven here on earth and you find yourself in hell. Did i make myself more understandable this time?

Heneni

It is not possible to enter heaven with one eye. CHRIST was using a form of Jewish sarchasm to make HIS point. HEAVEN is to be preferred to anything HELL has to offer.

 

[Heneni]

It is not possible to enter heaven with one eye. CHRIST was using a form of Jewish sarchasm to make HIS point. HEAVEN is to be preferred to anything HELL has to offer.

Your right, it is not possible to enter heaven with one eye. But it is possible and even commendable to enter the kingdom of god here on earth with one eye than be in hell which is also on earth with both your eyes.

. I never thought of jesus being sarcastic and all....

Heneni

 

[Heneni]

For those citing Mat 5:29-30 may I direct you to fact that this is an allegory, “If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast [it] from you” does not means that the Lord is suggesting that if you are tempted to sin because what the eye show your mind as desirable you should mutilate your self in order to gain entrance to the Kingdom of heavens “I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her” What you have to cast out of you in this instance is the lust that the eye show as a desirable thing. This passage des not indicate that we will have a physical body right after death.

I understand this as well, though i think the allergory about having one eye missing is also important. Having one eye missing, would mean you are imperfect. So Jesus was making sure that we understand that the kingdom of heaven is not only in heaven it is on earth as well, and the same thing goes for hell.

And yes the eye represents the sins of the eye, your spot on.

 

[LittleNipper]

Your right, it is not possible to enter heaven with one eye. But it is possible and even commendable to enter the kingdom of god here on earth with one eye than be in hell which is also on earth with both your eyes.

. I never thought of jesus being sarcastic and all....

Heneni

He was a jokster also. The word play with Peter's name is rather comic. If one really looks at some of the animals GOD made one will have a good laugh.

 

[emiliano]

I understand this as well, though i think the allergory about having one eye missing is also important. Having one eye missing, would mean you are imperfect. So Jesus was making sure that we understand that the kingdom of heaven is not only in heaven it is on earth as well, and the same thing goes for hell.

And yes the eye represents the sins of the eye, your spot on.

I am not getting this, heaven is on earth?

Rev 12:10
Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.
Jhn 3:3
Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see thekingdomofGod."​

It seems to me that the Lord was speaking of some kind of spiritual eyes that is required to enter God’s Kingdom; the physical eyes is not the members that one uses to see the Kingdom.

Jhn 3:5
Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.​

Again, your legs are not the members that one uses to enter the Kingdom of God

 

[Heneni]

I am not getting this, heaven is on earth?

Rev 12:10
Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.
Jhn 3:3
Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see thekingdomofGod."​

It seems to me that the Lord was speaking of some kind of spiritual eyes that is required to enter God’s Kingdom; the physical eyes is not the members that one uses to see the Kingdom.

Jhn 3:5
Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.​

Again, your legs are not the members that one uses to enter the Kingdom of God

The kingdom is on earth and in heaven.

 

[LittleNipper]

The kingdom is on earth and in heaven.

I would suggest that the kingdom of CHRIST is not yet on earth. That seems to happen when CHRIST returns with HIS caught away CHURCH and sets up the MILLENNIUM Kingdom. During that time satan will be locked up.

Presently satan, who was the most beautiful perfect Cherub placed in charge of the earth, is still the ruler(See Isaiah 14:3-20). Metaphorically, the word Lucifer applied to the King of Babylon (Isaiah 14:12).

Though his days are numbered, Lucifer is still rules over the earth. GOD of course sees the finished project and so one could say...

 

[Heneni]

I would suggest that the kingdom of CHRIST is not yet on earth. That seems to happen when CHRIST returns with HIS caught away CHURCH asn sets up the MILLENNIUM Kingdom. During that time satan will be locked up.

Yes i agree with you here. Also...The kingdom of god is in you. And so as long as you are here the kingdom is here. But by your presence here you are bringing a foreign kingdom to earth, which is really under the control of satan. So he does not have full control here now, just like christians dont either. So this earth here is really a mixture and clashing of two kingdoms. But in the new millenium when the new earth has been created there will only be one kingdom on earth.

 

[emiliano]

I would suggest that the kingdom of CHRIST is not yet on earth. That seems to happen when CHRIST returns with HIS caught away CHURCH and sets up the MILLENNIUM Kingdom. During that time satan will be locked up.

Presently satan, who was the most beautiful perfect Cherub placed in charge of the earth, is still the ruler(See Isaiah 14:3-20). Metaphorically, the word Lucifer applied to the King of Babylon (Isaiah 14:12).

Though his days are numbered, Lucifer is still rules over the earth. GOD of course sees the finished project and so one could say...

We are getting into more problems here because if we believe this it would mean that Jesus lied when He said, it is finished.

Jhn 17:4
I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.
Jhn 19:30
So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit. ​

The name Lucifer is mention only by Isaiah the rest of the scriptures call him Satan.

This makes me think that the rebellious Angel cast down from heavens is Satan and he is not Lucifer. What could it be meant by son of the morning start? “I will ascend above the heights of the clouds? I will be like the Most High.” As far as can see in the scripture the only ones ever to conceived such an idea were Adam and Eve at the instigation of Satan, so it get complicated does it? Who is the morning start?

Isa 14:16
"Those who see you will gaze at you, [And] consider you, [saying]: '[Is] this the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms, ​

I believe that Satan is not a man but a spirit. So this would point out to yet another character, a powerful king.
Satan was utterly defeated at the day of the Calvary.

 

[emiliano]

Yes i agree with you here. Also...The kingdom of god is in you. And so as long as you are here the kingdom is here. But by your presence here you are bringing a foreign kingdom to earth, which is really under the control of satan. So he does not have full control here now, just like christians dont either. So this earth here is really a mixture and clashing of two kingdoms. But in the new millenium when the new earth has been created there will only be one kingdom on earth.

Good one Heneni, now I get it! I should have done that earlier as I am very fond of the writing of ST Augustine and I am studying the City of God. Thanks. I still have a problem because the Lord said that He finished the work at the cross or as you said earlier “Who ever got saved got saved that day on the cross” So it cannot be that there is any work for us to do after our departure, but to worship and praise God and as the Catholic believe also pray to God for our still living loved ones, interceding prayer for God to have Mercy on them.

 

[opuntia]

The afterlife represents the kinds of people we find here today and all through the ages past and future.

There are essentially three levels. The top level is occupied by those whose spirituality was exceeding here. The second level is occupied by those who weren't spiritually high but did not go about committing crimes, just ordinary people. The third level is occupied by those who did not treat their neighbors with love but robbed them, killed them or did anything even we humans find offensive.

At the resurrection, each will receive a body that is either of the first, second or third level quality. God is fair and just, He can only give you what you earned--no more, no less. Judgement is about what you as an individual deserves. Of course you are not going to worry about anybody else's judgment except your own. Too many people think in black and white terms and do not think there is more to it than just the basic views we hold about the beyond.

"It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." (Proverbs 25:2: KJV).

Only those who are willing to seek and find out these matters will obtain them. Prayer was established for that purpose. Are you capable of finding out these things?