Christian: Crazy doctrine

[Katzpur]

Hmmm...ok...the thing is...that the bible says that it is appointed for a man do die once and then be judged. So lets say i die today...then i need to be judged, but then when im resurrected, i would live again, and then have lived twice before i am judged.

When you "die," your spirit leaves your body but does not cease to exist. It's your body that dies, and it's a one-time thing. The judgment that immediately follows death is a general, broad-stroke kind of move. It's not the "final judgment," which the Bible clearly states takes place after Jesus returns for His millennial reign. When you are resurrected, that's when your physical body is given new life and your spirit rejoins it. That's when you are judged worthy of Heaven. Or not. If you were to go to Heaven immediately after death, you'd still have to stand before God at the "final judgment" before your body was resurrected. What would be the point of that if you'd already spent a few hundred or even a few thousand years in Heaven? Would it be God's chance to say, "Oops! How did you slip into Heaven? You should have been sent to Hell right off the bat. Get outta here!!"

If we die and go to jesus, then we already have bodies that we can happily use to be with jesus, and would not need to be resurrected to get another body again.

I'm confused. As you saying that you don't believe our bodies are resurrected?

It doesnt make sense that if a christian dies they hang around 'somewhere' and or get to 'sleep' while the rest of the christians have to bear the brunt of persecution on this earth. The bible says that if you endure to the end you will be saved (not talking about salvation on the cross), but rather saved from out of the world, when it is destroyed. Now is someone dies and lazes about in paradise, heaven or floating around somewhere here on earth, they would not be working in the kingdom.

I don't recall saying anything about "hanging around somewhere." If you endure to the end, you will be saved, as the Bible says. But what about those who didn't have the same opportunity as you did here on earth? If you are in the Spirit World teaching the gospel of Jesus Christ, I can assure you that you will be doing the greatest work you can conceive of. You definitely won't be "lazing about." You'll be helping to spread the word to millions who died without knowing about their Savior.

What are we suppose to do? Work in the kingdom right? So if we have to work in the kingdom, then we ALL have to work in the kingdom. Would god let some work and not others. I tend not to think so.

I couldn't agree more. That's why we're working now to spread the gospel here on earth. It's why we will continue to do so in the Spirit World, right up until the Final Judgment. That's why Jesus said that the gates of Hell could not overthrow His Church. The gates of Hell would have been nothing more than a reference to the abode of the dead to Christ's Apostles. It would have been clear to them that He was saying that even death would not stop people from hearing of Him.

 

[Charity]

Except there was no faith mentioned in the thread header.

It appears to me that just the term "same faith debates" would be a clue for you....

 

[Luminous]

And this is the SAME FAITH section of the forum...do you mind?
Heneni

Are you not agnostic, especially on this subject? Besides, Mystery is a mystery to me.
but if you do not want me to post, then i wont; don't worry, you'll ''miss'' me.

 

[sojourner]

I don't think the NT writers had a clear, cohesive idea of the afterlife. Each writer presents death and resurrection from a different POV. Additionally, the Hellenistic ideas (which permeated Xy) are completely different from the Hebraic ideas presented in the OT. Therefore, anything we have to offer, based upon "what the Bible says," can only be conjecture.

It's enough for me to have faith that God has already taken care of everything for God's children, and get back to the business of living.

 

[Heneni]

It's your body that dies, and it's a one-time thing.

If we die once and that is it...then it is safe to say that jesus will be coming back for his bride, and ALL of his bride will have to be on this earth when he returns. That means, that if we died tomorrow and jesus did not come back by tomorrow, we wont be the bride. If he returns WITH the bride, then everybody that has died and gone to heaven will be the bride. Does the bible indicate that half of the bride comes with jesus and the other half is on this earth? It seems to indicate that jesus waits for his bride to ready herself. How does she ready herself? By being in heaven or being on earth? There is no reason to believe that some christians will escape the tribulation. IF we shared in his suffering we will also share in his glory. How many christians to you know, have died without any suffering? Will they share in the glory? I dont think so. It is appointed to ALL of us to suffer for the kingdom. Suffering is part and parcel of who we are. A christian who has died and gone to heaven, and who has never taken up their cross and followed him through various trials and tough times, could not have done what jesus said we must ALL do. Take up our own cross.

The judgment that immediately follows death is a general, broad-stroke kind of move. It's not the "final judgment," which the Bible clearly states takes place after Jesus returns for His millennial reign.

Also...can you explain what you mean by a 'broad stroke' judgment when we die?

When you are resurrected, that's when your physical body is given new life and your spirit rejoins it.

So what form do you have in heaven when you die? Only a spiritual form? If that be the case, did jesus drop his physical body after resurrection, somewhere between earth and heaven?

That's when you are judged worthy of Heaven.

Fear not...jesus said...its gods good pleasure to give you the kingdom. We are citizens of heaven already...only we have not gone through the gates yet.

If you were to go to Heaven immediately after death, you'd still have to stand before God at the "final judgment" before your body was resurrected.

Judgement based on?

What would be the point of that if you'd already spent a few hundred or even a few thousand years in Heaven? Would it be God's chance to say, "Oops! How did you slip into Heaven? You should have been sent to Hell right off the bat. Get outta here!!

Im not sure i follow...but it sounds funny.

I'm confused. As you saying that you don't believe our bodies are resurrected?

Yes our bodies will be resurrected. But we need to rethink this body thing. If we died when we were three years old, then are we resurrected as three year olds? What if we had a limb missing, do we get resurrected with a missing limb. Some people believe that if a baby dies it goes to heaven. If it is resurrected will it be resurrected as a baby?

I think resurrection also works like a seed that is placed in the ground. You sow one body into the ground, and get another one when it is raised. The old plant and new plant have similarities, it has the same form, but the new plant is new. So...the plant that died, is not the plant that springs up again. It is a completely NEW plant with a different yet similar body. God will construct our bodies out of atoms. But it wont be this body you will have. But it will look like a body.

I don't recall saying anything about "hanging around somewhere." If you endure to the end, you will be saved, as the Bible says. But what about those who didn't have the same opportunity as you did here on earth? If you are in the Spirit World teaching the gospel of Jesus Christ, I can assure you that you will be doing the greatest work you can conceive of. You definitely won't be "lazing about." You'll be helping to spread the word to millions who died without knowing about their Savior.

I agree that we are not to laze around...but i dont think that we stop working when we die. We stop working when night comes. And what kind of work is there to do in heaven? Or in paradise?

 

[ChristineES]

If I look from the outside at the doctrine I believe in, I can see why atheists my find it a bit... unusual.
1. I believe that a man was born, grew up, spread his word, died and then rose again and told his followers to keep his words going.
2. I believe this man is/was God
3. I pray daily to someone (thing?) that can not be seen with the eyes, heard with the ears (except those times I was alone and heard my name called and they have no reason to believe that). and so on.
It makes perfect sense to me, but I can see why atheists would think it illogical.
And on top of that, they have 4 gospels, written by 4 completely different people from different points of view.

 

[Katzpur]

Heneni, before I answer your questions, I need to know if you understand that I do not believe that Heaven is the same place as Paradise or that Hell is the same place as the Spirit Prison, because your questions imply that you are using some of these words interchangeably.

 

[Heneni]

Heneni: Do you know Dante Alighieri's poetry on the afterlife?

Inferno
Purgatory

They're interesting depictions. Inferno is horrible even, perhaps more telling about the condition of the minds of men who have toyed around with the concept of "hell". "Hell" is the Inferno with no end. I personally don't accept the idea of "hell". If Jesus suffered the sins of men, then Jesus would himself be in "hell", and God would have failed to be the savior of men. Apokatastasis is more likely. Dante didn't most likely himself believe in it, considering his writings, but in some ways, it echoes Dante's own passage through Inferno and Purgatory to Paradise. It's the path from imperfection to perfection ("theosis").

Well, that didn't really deal with "hades/sheol", but hopefully it's of some interest.

Hello. Nice to meet you. Im curious what an ARAIN christian is?

Jesus did come to hell. So did satan. This earth became hell when it was cursed way back in genesis. And there is an underworld here. There is a spiritual realm here that we cannot see with our natural eyes.

This earth is a grave. Our bodies are simply garments, like shirts we put on to give our spirits a natural form. What is inside that garment is what matters. Jesus was not born from a natural father, therefore he had his origin from another world, and was born into a foreign land, this earth, hell, to save his people out of it.

Previously heaven was a place where all of gods creatures lived happily ever after until there was iniquity found in some of them. The same thing is happening on this earth, in reverse. This earth is the dwelling place of the living dead, and in among them are creatures who are righteous. Whereas before the wicked infiltrated the heavenlies, now the righteous are infiltrating the world. Like a little leaven in heaven corrupted the heavenlies, so a little mustard seed of a christian can grow up to infiltrate the world. The whole world is under the control of the wicked one, like the whole of the heavenlies were under the control of god. And since there was an insurrection there, there is now an insurrection on this earth as well.

Satan would rather the whole bunch of gods children leave, and let him get on with being the boss of this earth. He is not able to have full control of the earth as long as there are those pesky christians who wont submit under his rulership. Pretty much the same he did to god in heaven. He wouldnt submit under gods rule.

Yet he has been brilliant at construction a new way of ruling the world. Under the guise of christianity. Its called the KINGDOM NOW philosophy, where christians believe that god has ordained for them to take over this world. It would be no more fitting to take over this world, than it would have been for satan to take over heaven.

This earth does not belong to satan. He did not create it therefore he does not own it. He is here as a prisoner of war so to speak, but in his exile he has determined to rule and reign his prison of darkness. When his world, this earth, is destroyed he has nowhere to go. The only other place we know he is destined to go is to the lake of fire. The lake of fire is not away from the presence of god (I believe) but rather very close to the presence of god. Satan did not fancy being in heaven with god there and so it would be no torture to be seperated from god for eternity, it would be a blessing. Instead being in the presence of god, will bring him much pain and suffering, since holiness is rather disturbing to pure evil.

Thanks for the links. Its great to share information and i always appreciate a good read.

God bless
heneni

 

[Heneni]

Heneni, before I answer your questions, I need to know if you understand that I do not believe that Heaven is the same place as Paradise or that Hell is the same place as the Spirit Prison, because your questions imply that you are using some of these words interchangeably.

I agree that heaven and paradise is not the same thing. And that the universe out there through a telescope is also heaven, but not the heaven that god is in.


I believe that earth is hell, and that the spirit prison is on this earth. Jesus went to the spirit prison to take the keys of it away from satan. If he did not take the keys, there would never have been an open door out of this world, back to heaven.

But when you have time, perhaps you can explain fully what you see the difference to be between heaven and paradise, and hell and spirit prison.

God bless
Heneni

 

[Katzpur]

But when you have time, perhaps you can explain fully what you see the difference to be between heaven and paradise, and hell and spirit prison.

Well, I believe that Heaven is where God is -- literally. I don't believe He's "everywhere at once" although I believe His power and influence can be felt everywhere He wants it to be. I believe that Heaven is where the vast, vast majority of everyone who has ever lived will ultimately end up.

I believe that Hell is better described as "Outer Darkness." It is the place so totally removed from God that none of His glory and majesty can be found there. It's a place of utter misery and despair, but fortunately it's a place where very few will go. As a matter of fact, the only people who will end up in Outer Darkness are those who essentially hate God so much that it is their choice to spend eternity as far away from his presence as possible. I'm not even talking about the people most of us think of as "wicked." I believe there is even a part of Heaven reserved for them. Those who end up in Hell are in a class all by themselves. They have a perfect knowlege of what they're choosing to reject and choose it anyway.

Paradise and the Spirit Prison are both part of a realm which is invisible to human eyes, but where the spirits of the dead reside until they are resurrected. I, too, believe the Spirit Prison is here on Earth, as is Paradise. It might be helpful to think of them as states of mind rather than physical locations since a spirit cannot be physically contained. When a person dies, his spirit is immediately received into a state of existance determined by the way in which they lived his life. For the righteous, this state is one of peace, joy and rest -- Paradise. For the wicked, it is a state of anguish, sorrow and mental torment. The wicked can be released from this torment, however, by repenting and accepting the gospel of Jesus Christ prior to the resurrection.

No one goes to either Heaven or Hell (Outer Darkness) until the resurrection and Final Judgment.

 

[Lucian]

Hello. Nice to meet you. Im curious what an ARAIN christian is?

Hey. It's a term for a theological position, also called Subordinationism. I probably explained it the best in this post:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/1284415-post20.html

To add to my previous post, I wrote this a long time ago, and I still agree with it:
"Whether those who end up in Gehenna perish or are reconciled in the end I do not know, but most of the Christians were Apokatastasists in the 3rd and 4th centuries."

I guess my philosophy that I try to go by is that it's best to try to remain open to different ideas yet still have a healthy amount of criticism.

 

[Enoch07]

Ok..ill be the first to admit that i sometimes have strange ideas. But i have heard some strange doctrine in my days. Here is an example: Of course it is not preached like this...but its hiding inbetween the fancy footwork.

Am i the only one who finds all of this a bit odd:

Let me explain. Lets say a wicked person dies...where do they go? People believe hell. So then...if hell is their punishment then there they are burning their chops, and weaping and wailing and the works.

But that is not quite enough...God then resurrects them. Well according to paul, who said that he was confident that there would be the resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. So..i guess now God takes them out of hell and places them infront of his judgement throne, the judgement of the LAST day. Then they are judged. The judgement is you go to hell...again. HE HE!!!!! At least this time you know why...

You have things a bit twisted. So I will try to explain as simply as I can. When you die you go to Heaven regardless if you are wicked or righteous. Why you ask? Because you cannot be judged to hell or be allowed into the Kingdom of Heaven until you have been judged first. To be judged you must stand before God. Heaven is wherever God is so therefore, to be judged all must go to Heaven first. From the day Christ was crucified and until the end of the world (judgement day) all souls must wait to be judged. Which is not a biggie since Heaven is outside of time.

Also Dante had a vivid imagination his book is not to be taken seriously. Hell is not a place of eternal torment. To be judge to hell is to be consumed by God, blotted out from existence and all memory, put out of your misery.

 

[Heneni]

You have things a bit twisted

.


No kidding sherlock. :cover: Though if you read carefully...it never was MY ideas. Though the everybody goes to heaven to await judgement bit you added to the 'crazy doctrine' sure seems just a tad 'twisted'.

But before i simply dismiss it...perhaps you would like to give scripture to explain why you say everybody goes to heaven when they die?

Heneni

 

[Enoch07]

.


No kidding sherlock. :cover: Though if you read carefully...it never was MY ideas. Though the everybody goes to heaven to await judgement bit you added to the 'crazy doctrine' sure seems just a tad 'twisted'.

But before i simply dismiss it...perhaps you would like to give scripture to explain why you say everybody goes to heaven when they die?

Heneni

Well I cannot point to all the scripture that you asked for because are so many, these forums don't have enough room haha. I will just list a few. To be judged you must stand before God. To stand before God therefore means your in heaven. It really is that simple.

God is judge:
Psalms 50: 6 Let the heavens declare His righteousness, For God Himself is Judge.

God is in heaven:
Mathew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

If you accept the scripture. Then yes all go to heaven to be judged by God. But this is probably the point where you deny the bible because you don't believe in it. Which makes no sense because you asked for scripture. If that's the case my signature proves its point and I bid you good day.

 

[blackout]

If you accept the scripture. Then yes all go to heaven to be judged by God. But this is probably the point where you deny the bible because you don't believe in it. Which makes no sense because you asked for scripture. If that's the case my signature proves its point and I bid you good day.

(Enoch's signature)

:banghead3 Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.

You KNOW I would step in here to defend you Hen.
(and I truly would... as I enjoy so many of your posts... and ideas...
and enjoy a connection with you I can't quite explain)

but as it's a same faith debate and all... :cover:

(and I am Occultic Christian after all...
as opposed to Arian or RC or LDS or evangelical...or fill in the blank.)

 

[Heneni]

Well I cannot point to all the scripture that you asked for because are so many, these forums don't have enough room haha. I will just list a few. To be judged you must stand before God. To stand before God therefore means your in heaven. It really is that simple.

God is judge:
Psalms 50: 6 Let the heavens declare His righteousness, For God Himself is Judge.

God is in heaven:
Mathew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

If you accept the scripture. Then yes all go to heaven to be judged by God. But this is probably the point where you deny the bible because you don't believe in it. Which makes no sense because you asked for scripture. If that's the case my signature proves its point and I bid you good day.

Its also possible that by just being on the earth, we stand before him, like anything that exists is before him.

When we die, we are reincarnated, we come back to earth. Well most of us do, not all. SOoooooo...I guess thats going to make me crazy in your books.

But your theory about being in heaven when we die, has one problem, it must be terribly crowded by now. From the time when time began up to today, how many people do you think have come and gone?

Its far more likely to me, that people who have not learnt the lessons that they should have learnt for their own spirtual progress will come back to earth to grow. How do you judge someone who has barely had the time to live?

Heneni

 

[Enoch07]

Its also possible that by just being on the earth, we stand before him, like anything that exists is before him.

When we die, we are reincarnated, we come back to earth. Well most of us do, not all. SOoooooo...I guess thats going to make me crazy in your books.

But your theory about being in heaven when we die, has one problem, it must be terribly crowded by now. From the time when time began up to today, how many people do you think have come and gone?

Its far more likely to me, that people who have not learnt the lessons that they should have learnt for their own spirtual progress will come back to earth to grow. How do you judge someone who has barely had the time to live?

Heneni

Yes to your first question. If God is here on earth Heaven comes with him. I can totally respect your view on the afterlife. I have actually considered it a possibility myself in the past. I currently do not believe in it, but you have the right to believe whatever makes sense to you, and no one has any rights to force you to think otherwise.

 

[Enoch07]

Bah also I think I heard on Discovery Channel or something that if you took every human born from the beginning of our race to modern day times and put them in one place they would fit on...........


The Isle of Man is located geographically in the middle of the northern Irish Sea, close to the geographical centre of the British Isles. The island lies closest to Scotland followed by England, Ireland and Default PLESK Page.
Approximately 32 miles (51 km) long and between 8 miles (13 km) and 15 miles (24 km) wide, the island has an area of around 221 square miles (570 km2).


Whether or not that is true I dont know. But if God is infinite I am sure Heaven is too. So available space shouldnt be a problem.

 

[Heneni]

Bah also I think I heard on Discovery Channel or something that if you took every human born from the beginning of our race to modern day times and put them in one place they would fit on...........


The Isle of Man is located geographically in the middle of the northern Irish Sea, close to the geographical centre of the British Isles. The island lies closest to Scotland followed by England, Ireland and Default PLESK Page.
Approximately 32 miles (51 km) long and between 8 miles (13 km) and 15 miles (24 km) wide, the island has an area of around 221 square miles (570 km2).


Whether or not that is true I dont know. But if God is infinite I am sure Heaven is too. So available space shouldnt be a problem.

LOL!!! I wasnt exactly trying to make this a logistics problem. But well done for solving the space issue.:bow:

Id rather wanted to make a point about the pointlessness of having trillions of people 'float around', 'hang around' 'be suspended' ummmm...'collected in jars' up in heaven. What good is that doing? When you think about the time from adam to today, and you think about all the people who have died and been born all over the world for all these centuries....well...i think it would be not only a waste of space to keep them in heaven, but a waste of a perfectly good opportunity to learn more back here on earth.

What you say?

 

[Enoch07]

I hear ya, and that would be a shame if everyone was just in a suspended state of animation or something. Personally I believe Heaven will be what you enjoyed most in life. If you like racing cars/working on cars, then that will be your "specific" heaven. I plan on exploring the universe, flying thru the middle of suns, gaseous planets, whatever and just marvelling at the universe up close and personal. I do not have any scripture to prove this, its just a gut feeling.