Christian: Do you deserve to go to heaven?

[tomspug]

"All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." - Romans 3:23

So Christians, does this mean that none of us deserve to go to heaven, no matter what we've done in life?

If so, then that means that Jesus dying for our sins was a sacrifice on God's part. He wasn't giving us anything we deserved but gave us salvation anyways out of love.

Why do we continue to entertain the notion that some people are better than others (or are more deserving of heaven then others) if this is the case? If God loves Osama bin Laden just as much as Mother Theresa (and they both fell short of the glory of God), why should we love them differently? Does Mother Theresa deserve heaven more than Osama bin Laden?

 

[Reverend Rick]

1. None of us deserve to go to heaven.
2. Not all of us will be in heaven.

 

[madhatter85]

"All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." - Romans 3:23

So Christians, does this mean that none of us deserve to go to heaven, no matter what we've done in life?

If so, then that means that Jesus dying for our sins was a sacrifice on God's part. He wasn't giving us anything we deserved but gave us salvation anyways out of love.

Why do we continue to entertain the notion that some people are better than others (or are more deserving of heaven then others) if this is the case? If God loves Osama bin Laden just as much as Mother Theresa (and they both fell short of the glory of God), why should we love them differently? Does Mother Theresa deserve heaven more than Osama bin Laden?

yes, I am sure he loves those two just as much as he loves you and me. God is no respecter of persons, both will have the same opportunity and chance to accept the truth, repent, and follow Christ. Who knows? Mother Teresa may not be in heaven, Only Heavenly Father knows the intentiosn fo epople. Maybe Mother Teresa's intent was for popularity and making people love her rather than loving God. When Osama Bin Laden may never have had the chance to hear the truth yet, or maybe he is brainwashed by his parents into his situation so he may have an easier time repenting that soemone who knew better.

We do not know. We are not to Judge.

As long as i do all that i can do faithfully. I know I will see heavenly Father's Face again and he will say to me "Well done my faithful servant."

 

[Reverend Rick]

The true test of a Christian, could you forgive Osama Bin Lauden?

 

[ChristineES]

According to my faith, no one is good enough to go. Jesus made that possible by His sacrifice.

 

[Katzpur]

"All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." - Romans 3:23

So Christians, does this mean that none of us deserve to go to heaven, no matter what we've done in life?

Based solely on how we've lived our lives, that's exactly what it means. LDS scriptures put it even more strongly. They say, "God cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance." In other words, it's not a matter of whether our good deeds outweigh our bad deeds. God intends to make no allowances whatsoever for sin. Where there is sin, there is a debt to be paid, and we are incapable of paying it.

If so, then that means that Jesus dying for our sins was a sacrifice on God's part. He wasn't giving us anything we deserved but gave us salvation anyways out of love.

This hypothetical conversation between Jesus and me explains how I see it. (It's from the book "Believing Christ" by Stephen E. Robinson.)

Me: But why would You do this for me?
Jesus: Because I love you.
Me: But it doesn't seem fair.
Jesus: That's right. It's not fair at all -- it's merciful. It is, after all, a gift.
Me: But how can I possibly deserve such a gift?
Jesus: Don't be silly. You can't. You don't. This gift is offered because I love you and want to help you, not because I owe it to you.
Me: But how can I ever repay You?
Jesus: There you go again. Don't you get it yet? You can't repay me, not you or all the billions like you. Gifts of this magnitude can never be repaid. For what I've done out of love for you, you can only love me back, and seek to become what I am -- a giver of good gifts.

Why do we continue to entertain the notion that some people are better than others (or are more deserving of heaven then others) if this is the case?

Because some people sincerely appreciate the gift and make a genuine commitment to their Savior, and others don't. Some people are truly remorseful when the fall short. They try every day to live their lives in such a way that it is clear to Jesus Christ that they love him. Others do nothing more than offer lip service to Him.

If God loves Osama bin Laden just as much as Mother Theresa (and they both fell short of the glory of God), why should we love them differently? Does Mother Theresa deserve heaven more than Osama bin Laden?

God may love them equally, but I don't believe that means He is equally pleased with them. As a matter of fact, I think it's absolutely crazy to imagine that He is. Why on earth would Jesus have spent His entire ministry telling us how we should live if it doesn't matter to Him? Why did He say that He would "reward every man according to His works" if He didn't mean it?

 

[!Fluffy!]

"All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." - Romans 3:23

So Christians, does this mean that none of us deserve to go to heaven, no matter what we've done in life?

If so, then that means that Jesus dying for our sins was a sacrifice on God's part. He wasn't giving us anything we deserved but gave us salvation anyways out of love.

Why do we continue to entertain the notion that some people are better than others (or are more deserving of heaven then others) if this is the case? If God loves Osama bin Laden just as much as Mother Theresa (and they both fell short of the glory of God), why should we love them differently? Does Mother Theresa deserve heaven more than Osama bin Laden?

No! I do not deserve to go to heaven.
No one does.
All are unworthy.
All are bankrupt.
All need salvation.
Salvation is offered to all.
Salvation is refused by some.
As for who will be judged and how that shakes out, that's not my job. Or anyone else's but God's.

 

[madhatter85]

The true test of a Christian, could you forgive Osama Bin Lauden?

i don't know him personalyl, and i'm sure he is just a confused person. does that justify hsi actions? no. does it make me indifferent to him? yes. Like, If i met him, i would shake his hand and wouldn;t be a jerk or have any hard feelings because nothing he has done has really affected me on a personal level.

 

[tomspug]

I think what Rick meant was, could you forgive Osama bin Laden for what he has done. Even if you don't know him personally, his deeds are known, and they have affected the lives of many Americans.

So, naturally, if you have been harmed by the acts of Osama bin Laden in a certain way (like if someone you knew was killed in 9/11), the Bible teaches that we are obligated to forgive him. That doesn't give HIM anything, because only God can forgive sins, but we must do it because we are commanded to love others: the greatest commandment.

 

[madhatter85]

I think what Rick meant was, could you forgive Osama bin Laden for what he has done. Even if you don't know him personally, his deeds are known, and they have affected the lives of many Americans.

So, naturally, if you have been harmed by the acts of Osama bin Laden in a certain way (like if someone you knew was killed in 9/11), the Bible teaches that we are obligated to forgive him. That doesn't give HIM anything, because only God can forgive sins, but we must do it because we are commanded to love others: the greatest commandment.

very correct you are.

D&C 64:

10 I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.

 

[Mister Emu]

A) No one is deserving of heaven...

B) On a personal level, I could forgive Osama...

 

[Jon²]

In no way is it for me to decide whether I am worthy or not to go to heaven.

 

[cardero]

"All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." - Romans 3:23

So Christians, does this mean that none of us deserve to go to heaven, no matter what we've done in life?

No, it means that trying to live one's life accordong to the expectations of another entity is a futile effort and a unrealistic endeavor.

 

[ChristineES]

If Bin Laden were to repent and be sorry, then we would be obligated to forgive.

 

[tomspug]

Hmm, interesting argument. Do you have a Biblical reference? Peter asked, "How many times should I forgive my brother?" Jesus answered, "Seventy-times seven (interpretations vary)." Basically, a lot.

However, if someone hurt you deeply that it affected you psychologically, don't you need to forgive that person in your heart before you can truly 'get over it'? It seems that there is a necessity to forgive, for your own sake, not just for others.

 

[Katzpur]

If Bin Laden were to repent and be sorry, then we would be obligated to forgive.

I know what you're saying, but these verses have always made me wonder if that's right.

Matthew 6:14-15 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

It makes sense that we would only have to forgive those who repent, but if we're going to be Christlike in how we live, we are obligated to forgive even the unrepentent. Remember, while dying on the cross, He asked His Father to forgive His murderers and they certainly weren't repentent.

 

[Mr. Peanut]

The dialogue from Katzpur's post said it well:

Me: But why would You do this for me?
Jesus: Because I love you.
Me: But it doesn't seem fair.
Jesus: That's right. It's not fair at all -- it's merciful. It is, after all, a gift.
Me: But how can I possibly deserve such a gift?
Jesus: Don't be silly. You can't. You don't. This gift is offered because I love you and want to help you, not because I owe it to you.
Me: But how can I ever repay You?
Jesus: There you go again. Don't you get it yet? You can't repay me, not you or all the billions like you. Gifts of this magnitude can never be repaid. For what I've done out of love for you, you can only love me back, and seek to become what I am -- a giver of good gifts.

Because God loves us, he freely saves us by grace, which actually IS undeserved, unearned favor/merit. Opening post said the wages of sin is death. Jesus took care of that, he died. Every sin of every person in this world, including Bin Laden's has already been paid for, the one condition of this or any free gift is to accept it by believing in Christ, trusting that he has, in fact paid for all of our sins and chalked up to our account his righteousness where ours was bankrupt. It is possible, but I seriously doubt Bin Laden will ever place his trust in Christ for salvation, for by his actions he seems to have shown a hardened, impenitant heart of unbelief, but if he does, he will be saved just like any other undeserving sinner.

 

[Katzpur]

Because God loves us, he freely saves us by grace, which actually IS undeserved, unearned favor/merit. Opening post said the wages of sin is death. Jesus took care of that, he died. Every sin of every person in this world, including Bin Laden's has already been paid for, the one condition of this or any free gift is to accept it by believing in Christ, trusting that he has, in fact paid for all of our sins and chalked up to our account his righteousness where ours was bankrupt.

I agree with everything you've said, but would like to add one thing. I believe that our belief in Christ and our recognition of what He has actually done for us is only genuine when we repent of our sins to the best of our ability. If we don't do that, I don't think that believing "in" Christ will do us much good. A lot of people claim to believe that Christ has paid for their sins, and yet they seem to feel that they have no responsibility at all to try to live by His example. I like how you used the anology that even though our account is bankrupt, He has covered what we lack by His own righteousness. I try to look at His Atonement from this perspective. I know that my account is in the overdraft. I know He will pay the debt I've incurred, but I want very much to not go any further in the hole than necessary, so I'm going to try to live in such a way that I don't take advantage of His love and mercy.

It is possible, but I seriously doubt Bin Laden will ever place his trust in Christ for salvation, for by his actions he seems to have shown a hardened, impenitant heart of unbelief, but if he does, he will be saved just like any other undeserving sinner.

I agree again with what you have said, but would like to ask how you feel about another example. Osama bin Laden is so full of hate that it's hard to imagine that he could change. He and those who have aligned themselves to his cause are not stupid. Many of them have lived in countries where there is freedom of religion. They have personally known people of other faiths, such as Christianity. They could have seen, if they had been the slightest bit open-minded, that we are not an enemy to be distroyed. They are neither stupid or naive. They knew what they were doing and what they are continuing to do, and have no desire to change.

But what of the millions of people in Iraq and other countries where Islam is the only religion one is permitted to practice? What of the millions of children who are taught, practically from the time they are old enough to talk, that Christians are their enemies and must be destroyed. They sit in schools and chant together for hours on end until their hatred for everything we stand for is just all-consuming. They've never really had an opportunity to believe in Christ and to trust him. They may never have that chance. What do you believe their eternal fate to be?

 

[Mr. Peanut]

I agree with everything you've said, but would like to add one thing. I believe that our belief in Christ and our recognition of what He has actually done for us is only genuine when we repent of our sins to the best of our ability. If we don't do that, I don't think that believing "in" Christ will do us much good. A lot of people claim to believe that Christ has paid for their sins, and yet they seem to feel that they have no responsibility at all to try to live by His example. I like how you used the anology that even though our account is bankrupt, He has covered what we lack by His own righteousness. I try to look at His Atonement from this perspective. I know that my account is in the overdraft. I know He will pay the debt I've incurred, but I want very much to not go any further in the hole than necessary, so I'm going to try to live in such a way that I don't take advantage of His love and mercy.

Hi, we absolutely want to live a life that pleases God. As far as salvation is concerned, this debt is already paid, and the righteousness of Christ already added to our bankrupt account. All because of God's love, which is our motivation to grow in grace as we yield to the Spirit. Besides when we do sin it only backfires and makes us more miserable anyway, huh?

agree again with what you have said, but would like to ask how you feel about another example. Osama bin Laden is so full of hate that it's hard to imagine that he could change. He and those who have aligned themselves to his cause are not stupid. Many of them have lived in countries where there is freedom of religion. They have personally known people of other faiths, such as Christianity. They could have seen, if they had been the slightest bit open-minded, that we are not an enemy to be distroyed. They are neither stupid or naive. They knew what they were doing and what they are continuing to do, and have no desire to change.

But what of the millions of people in Iraq and other countries where Islam is the only religion one is permitted to practice? What of the millions of children who are taught, practically from the time they are old enough to talk, that Christians are their enemies and must be destroyed. They sit in schools and chant together for hours on end until their hatred for everything we stand for is just all-consuming. They've never really had an opportunity to believe in Christ and to trust him. They may never have that chance. What do you believe their eternal fate to be?

I cannot imagine but that God in his infinite mercy will show complete fairness, mercy, justice, and the word the Old Testament uses, I believe I said this before, equity. I trust God, who is good, to judge with equity. Just how that plays out, God knows. It has to do with just how much light shined into their darkness and their response to their conscience and etc. To put it simply, I just trust God is fair, his ways are above our ways and understanding. As far as children, the Kingdom of God is made up of such. I must go now, sorry for such a short answer.

 

[tomspug]

Katzpur I disagree. The phrase "repenting to the best of our ability" doesn't sound like repentance at all. It sounds like it's all about how 'well' you can repent, even though the whole point of repenting is that it is IMPOSSIBLE to repent ENOUGH. Repentance is admitting that you have absolutely no control over your salvation because no matter how sorry you are, you still deserve hell.

Hence, grace. Grace is the most important Christian belief because of the human dilemma. And grace can never be earned.

Repentance is only something you do once because it is admitting that you deserve hell. How can you do that more than once? That's why a doctrine of multiple levels of heaven isn't in the Bible, because salvation is only ONE choice and it is available to EVERYONE from Mother Theresa to Osama bin Laden.