Christian Magic?

[Rainbow Mage]

then tell me what? dont just say ohh your closeminded and leave it at that without even attempting to explain why im wrong.

Christians dont like magic because it manipulates and distorts Gods creation, to humanities own ends, we believe its unatural to Gods creation. If your not talking about something like this then YOU are just as close minded as me not trying to figure out why we (christians) dont like magic and then applying it your belief. If its merely symoblic then I see no more harm in it than other religions however if it manipulates Gods world then yes it is wrong.

The fact is you do magic. You pray for things, which is the exact same thing. You call on a divine presence to grant you favours, etc. That is magic. I have never met any Christians yet who don't baptize in water. That also is magic. Water is one of the four base elements of nature, it carries powerful magic and life energy of the planet itself.

 

[blackout]

I guess they would difine magic as something humans do while conversing with demons or spirits, Miracles are something done by God, so let me put it by this way

Magic, construct of man to gain power for himself and play the role of God
Miralce, God

Or maybe magic is just the way of the UniVerse.

 

[logician]

I was watching an Easter sermon of some kind with my dad on TV. I was barely paying attention to it, at any rate, they were talking about the blood of Jesus and all this stuff. Isn't this whole blood of Jesus deal just very powerful blood magic? I mean even if Jesus didn't intend to give his life for people, just the fact that millions believe he did constitutes very powerful magic. Does anyone else agree?

No, "bandwagon" theories really prove nothing.

 

[Vasilisa Jade]

Not according to roman catholic christians.

Right.

"In Roman Catholic theology, "transubstantiation" (in Latin, transsubstantiatio, in Greek μετουσίωσις (metousiosis)) means the change of the substance of bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ in the Eucharist, while all that is accessible to the senses (accidents) remains as before..."

-Wiki

We learned this in college while studying Roman Catholicism. This is the only acceptable form of cannibalism.

erm, yeah, youll find no even most of them believe its the actual blood and body of Jesus Christ

This belief is a fundamental part of roman Catholicism whether or not the individuals agree with it or really believe it. Most church goers across the board are only "Sunday Christians" anyway, and pick and choose what to believe in their organization they chose. This isn't unique to catholicism or even christianity for that matter.

Christians dont like magic because it manipulates and distorts Gods creation, to humanities own ends, we believe its unatural to Gods creation.

Right.... :sarcastic

It's unnatural cause we can naturally do it. I think it is the organized religions of submission who attempt to take something naturally given and pervert it into the opposite.

If its merely symoblic then I see no more harm in it than other religions however if it manipulates Gods world then yes it is wrong.

Well, someone has to be proactive.

About that....

[youtube]ajJBwiZzc5M[/youtube]

The fact is you do magic. You pray for things, which is the exact same thing. You call on a divine presence to grant you favours, etc.

I agree. Lazy magic, but still magic. My view is that they simply don't realize what they are doing, in focusing their intent on a being formed through their collective subconscious who I think... took on a sentience of it's own, but still Self created by the collective members over many years. They have no idea what they have done I think.

All this time they think it is God granting their will, but I think it is really a byproduct of their own energy being poured out.

Still thinking on this...

 

[tarasan]

The fact is you do magic. You pray for things, which is the exact same thing. You call on a divine presence to grant you favours, etc. That is magic. I have never met any Christians yet who don't baptize in water. That also is magic. Water is one of the four base elements of nature, it carries powerful magic and life energy of the planet itself.

we pray for God to do it, WE DO NOTHING, and he doesnt have to do anything if he doesnt want to, we arnt manipulating anything. although I have read the wiki on magick (admittedly not the best soruce but no one here seemed to correct me in how i defined it therefore i decided to go and see for myself.

for my own benefit and for this conversation, what does Aliester Crowley means by "Change" and "the Will"
because I think if im understanding wiki and if it can actually be trusted then this could be how we differ.

dont yell if i caught the wrong end of the stick this "magick" doesnt "at least in how you view it" seem to be exactly the kind of thing we see in the bible.

 

[Mister Emu]

Prayer is no more magic than asking your neighbor for a cup of sugar... and if you want to call asking your neighbor for a cup of sugar "magic", then just about everything must be magic and the term loses meaning...

 

[tarasan]

Prayer is no more magic than asking your neighbor for a cup of sugar... and if you want to call asking your neighbor for a cup of sugar "magic", then just about everything must be magic and the term loses meaning...

thank you for saving me mister emu!!!

.....my hero......

 

[Rain Drops]

If you believe in magic/spirituality and believe it impacts the material world... then what do you make of the largest and most powerful religion in the world?

Of course we could turn away like the atheist and poo-poo it all.

 

[Mr Cheese]

communion has no magical power, it is merely a symbolic ceremony when we remeber what Christ did for us. It has no powers and it isnt meant to do anything other than let us reflect.

not to catholics...

and really not to anglicans either...but there

.............

In Roman Catholic theology, "transubstantiation" (in Latin, transsubstantiatio, in Greek μετουσίωσις (metousiosis)) means the change of the substance of bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ in the Eucharist, while all that is accessible to the senses (accidents) remains as before.[1][2]
Some Greek confessions use the term "transubstantiation" (in Greek, metousiosis), but most Orthodox Christian traditions play down the term itself, and the notions of "substance" and "accidents", while adhering to the holy mystery that bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ during Divine Liturgy. Other terms such as "trans-elementation" ("metastoicheiosis") and "re-ordination" ("metarrhythmisis") are more common among the Orthodox.

............

 

[Mr Cheese]

And what is the difference?
What is a miracle if not a 'type'(form) of Maigck.

well magick specifically is a form of manipulation....

this is how mysticisma nd magic differ...

magic is like a man with a UV torch that goes around ripening tomatoes before their time

mysticism is like a man who goes around waiting for the sun to ripen the tomatoes, hoping that by setting up certain conditions the tomatoes will ripen.

There is a subtle difference

But I understand the mystics in this forum dont really understand magic, and the magicians in this forum tend to see everythign as magic.... as a general rule

 

[Mr Cheese]

The fact is you do magic. You pray for things, which is the exact same thing. You call on a divine presence to grant you favours, etc. That is magic. I have never met any Christians yet who don't baptize in water. That also is magic. Water is one of the four base elements of nature, it carries powerful magic and life energy of the planet itself.

christians can indeed participate in subtle forms of magic, without or with realising it....

however, the general summary was correct.

Baptizing in water is a ritual of initiation.... its not really magic...

next we'll be getting into those silly ideas that everythign including taking a poop is magic....

Of course this si further confused by the fact that very much of occultism within the past few centuries has been Christian based
with huge or small undertones (or overt overtones) of Hermeticism

 

[Mr Cheese]

Or maybe magic is just the way of the UniVerse.

I knew magic would become the same as pooping...

 

[Azakel]

well magick specifically is a form of manipulation....

this is how mysticisma nd magic differ...

magic is like a man with a UV torch that goes around ripening tomatoes before their time

mysticism is like a man who goes around waiting for the sun to ripen the tomatoes, hoping that by setting up certain conditions the tomatoes will ripen.

There is a subtle difference

But I understand the mystics in this forum dont really understand magic, and the magicians in this forum tend to see everythign as magic.... as a general rule

lol I agree with you. I think I was think more of the Jesus turning 'Water to Wine' when I post that. Christian call it a 'miracle', but it is manipulation like you said ^_^
That what I thought of.

 

[blackout]

christians can indeed participate in subtle forms of magic, without or with realising it....



Baptizing in water is a ritual of initiation.... its not really magic...

Magic can be defined as ritual that initates something.
Some change... or TransFormation... of Self... View... Vision... Understanding...Reality.

What exactly is the participant initating in baptism?

Initiate
1 : to cause or facilitate the beginning of : Set going

(though I'm sure you'll point to some other definition )

 

[Herr Heinrich]

*gasp* It's not magick!! It's a miracle!! Also the changing of bread into flesh and wine into blood has a scientific name!! Transubstantiation!! So there!



p.s.

 

[Moonstone]

I think you'll find yourself running into people making a bunch of arbitrary distinctions between divine intercession/miracles and magic/sorcery when you ask this kind of question.

When it comes down to it, the difference seems to be "well, ours is different and okay because its ours!"

I couldn't have said it better.

Agreed!

 

[Perfect Circle]

The fact is you do magic. You pray for things, which is the exact same thing. You call on a divine presence to grant you favours, etc. That is magic. I have never met any Christians yet who don't baptize in water. That also is magic. Water is one of the four base elements of nature, it carries powerful magic and life energy of the planet itself.

What are you talking about? That's not magic. Magic is a very vague term used to describe what people do in vegas entertainment, harry potter movies, and world of warcraft. Baptism, rosaries, prayer, and the eucharist are not magic... If they are, then what isn't magic?

This is the same problem you run into when talking about the existence of "god". When people define "god" as everything from an old man in the sky to pure love... then obviously there's no use in arguing about it because you don't know what the hell it is.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Magic can be defined as ritual that initates something.
Some change... or TransFormation... of Self... View... Vision... Understanding...Reality.

What exactly is the participant initating in baptism?

Initiate
1 : to cause or facilitate the beginning of : Set going

(though I'm sure you'll point to some other definition )

entry into a tradition...

at a mundane level, it acts like a secret hand shake, you gain a secret decoder ring and have joined a club....

at another level it is a signification of a pact

at a non physical level it can be a recognition and ackowledgement to invisible forces

etc

Please note, the dictionary is rather worthless when it comes to discussing actual esoteric issues, often anyway.

 

[Mr Cheese]

You know. You really are an ***.
No wonder you are so consumed with poop.

well the danger of saying everythign is magic is that the act of pooping becomes magic

the act of picking your nose becomes magic....

strictly speaking yes they are....

but really its a little bit more complicated than that...

magic involves manipulation of the imagination and ritual pattern making

.........

I'm not consumed with poop, I just find it an easy metaphor that anyone can understand....I could use other terms, but why hide behind flowery lingo that only a few would understand?

I guess I blame kabbalistic allusions to "hell" or Klipploth (shells) which one writer in my early learning years,....likend these emenations as God's poop....
Klipploth is the tree of evil or death...the one that most LHP kabbalists dabble in...

My apologies if I have offended you

 

[Mr Cheese]

What are you talking about? That's not magic. Magic is a very vague term used to describe what people do in vegas entertainment, harry potter movies, and world of warcraft. Baptism, rosaries, prayer, and the eucharist are not magic... If they are, then what isn't magic?

This is the same problem you run into when talking about the existence of "god". When people define "god" as everything from an old man in the sky to pure love... then obviously there's no use in arguing about it because you don't know what the hell it is.

you forgot the bunnies...

what isnt magic= eating custard pies

solve et coagula
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