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"Christian Nationalism is Not Christianity"

joelr

Well-Known Member
Bias? "Until he took an honest look"? So, translated, you agree with Bart and any other scholar that disagrees are not honest? As you can see, you are showing your bias.

I don't see how you are reaching that conclusion? You are continually attempting to put me into a box that fits your beliefs and apologetics.
Ehrman was a fundamentalist Christian, he himself claims he had to take an honest look at what the evidence presented which did not agree with apologetics and supported the Gospels being a mythology.
Why would you call me or any scholar dishonest? Your translation is completely wrong and completely unjustified? Now scholars may have some disagreements about the evidence regarding Jesus being an actual human man vs the entire story being a myth, all historians view the savior demigod narrative as a mythology. No evidence supports that any more than does evidence for Islam or Hinduism.

Again (how many times do I have to say this?) my bias is towards what is true. Scholars use evidence. But Ehrman isn't looking for the source of the mythology, he doesn't care where the theology originates from. If Paul was using Hellenism or making it all up from his imagination he doesn't seem to care. None of them disagree about the Gospels being true. They disagree about the evidence for Jesus being a real human or being made up wholecloth.
The mythicist stance is growing among scholars because the evidence is strong.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Even among scholars that deny Jesus or certain aspects of Jesus disagree, however:

According to scholar Marcus Borg, the following facts are agreed upon by most New Testament scholars:

  • Jesus was born sometime just before 4 B.C. He grew up in Nazareth, a small village in Galilee, as part of the peasant class. Jesus’ father was a carpenter and he became one, too, meaning that they had likely lost their agricultural land at some point.


That is definitely not true. First Borg is not a historian. Theologians have shown MASSIVE bias towards the Gospels stories being true just as an Islamic theologian considers the Quran the absolute and final word of God and miraculous in it's conception, wording and content. We both know that simply is not true. Demonstrating theologians can have massive bias towards something that is 100% false.

"Marcus Joel Borg was an American New Testament scholar and theologian"

The healing, visions, and especially his followers experiencing him after his death are not supported by evidence any more than Muhammad speaking to Gabrielle is. No historical scholar believes Krishna, Muhammad or Jesus were in any way divine, supernatural beings or associated with any supernatural event. Those are myths.

The basic historicity is more like this:

"Scholars differ about the beliefs and teachings of Jesus as well as the accuracy of the biblical accounts, with two events being supported by nearly universal scholarly consensus: Jesus was baptized and crucified.[16][17][18][19] Historical Jesus scholars typically contend that he was a Galilean Jew and living in a time of messianic and apocalyptic expectations.[20] Some scholars credit the apocalyptic declarations of the gospels to him, while others portray his "Kingdom of God" as a moral one, and not apocalyptic in nature"


Historical Jesus - Wikipedia. HISTORICAL JESUS

However among historical scholars, who have far more knowledge about writing styles, literary devices, sources, comparative religion, actual historical writings, all of the Christian texts and much more, many are jumping to supporting mythicism because the evidence favors that. Here are 5 out of the 26 listed, not all historians either, some are Professors of religious studies.


List of Historians Who Take Mythicism Seriously

List of Historians Who Take Mythicism Seriously • Richard Carrier

There are legitimate reasons to doubt Jesus existed, even as a mundane man whose legend became exaggerated (which is, definitely, always plausible too). These reasons have survived peer reviewtwice. And yet a common fallacy deployed against this fact is that “no relevant experts take this seriously.” This is already a fallacy. Once there is a multiply-corroborated peer-reviewed challenge to a consensus, that means it’s substantial enough that the consensus needs to be re-examined on the new evidence and analysis presented. It might survive that examination. But you still have to do it. You can’t just say “no one takes it seriously” as an excuse to not even conduct that examination (see my remarks on this in What I Said at the Brea Conference).

Nevertheless, here I will dispatch the mere premise of this argument, the claim that “no one takes it seriously.” I will maintain here an ongoing list of all those bona fide exerts—scholars with actual and relevant PhDs (many of them even sitting or emeritus professors of the subject)—who do take it seriously. I previously had maintained this list in response to Bart Ehrman’s deployment of this fallacy. But the number of scholars who meet even his absurdly narrow criteria—and even more so any genuinely pertinent criteria—has grown so large it needs its own page now. So here it is.

  1. Thomas Brodie. A now-retired professor of biblical studies who confessed his doubts in Beyond the Quest for the Historical Jesus: Memoir of a Discovery (Sheffield Phoenix 2012); see my discussion in Historicity News and Brodie on Jesus.
  2. Richard Carrier (myself). An independent scholar with a PhD in ancient history from Columbia University and multiple peer-reviewed publications, including the academic study On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reasons for Doubt (Sheffield Phoenix 2014). My colloquial summary, Jesus from Outer Space, outlines in simple terms the underlying logic of that peer-reviewed study. My anthology Hitler Homer Bible Christ includes all my pertinent peer-reviewed journal articles up to 2014. And my study of the methodology, which was peer-reviewed by professors of both mathematics and biblical studies (a requirement I set in my contract), is Proving History: Bayes’s Theorem and the Quest for the Historical Jesus (Prometheus 2012).
  3. Raphael Lataster. An independent scholar with a PhD in religious studies from the University of Sydney, who explained his doubts in his peer-reviewed assessment of the debate in Questioning the Historicity of Jesus (Brill 2019).
  4. Robert M. Price. An independent scholar with two pertinent PhDs, in Systematic Theology and New Testament Studies. He has multiple publications explaining his doubts, e.g. The Christ-Myth Theory and Its Problems (American Atheist 2012).
  5. Thomas Thompson. A retired yet renowned professor of biblical studies and second-temple Judaism, who originated the now-consensus doubts about the historicity of Moses and the Patriarchs, and explained his similar doubts about Jesus in The Messiah Myth: The Near Eastern Roots of Jesus and David (Basic Books 2009) and Is This Not The Carpenter? The Question of the Historicity of the Figure of Jesus (Routledge 2017).
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Bias.... "Virtually all historical scholars believe the Bible is the mythology" - correctly said would be "I have a list that supports my beliefs that...."



It's like you want to be wrong? Uh, no a current PhD in Biblical historicity who just did the 6 year Jesus historicity study ending in a 700pg scholarly monograph and is as familiar with the field as any current scholar said ALL non-fundamentalist scholars agree the Gospel Jesus is a myth? When you call someone "bias" for literally stating the truth......well I guess that means what I said is correct. I have a bias to the truth!


"


Historicity Big and Small: How Historians Try to Rescue Jesus

BY RICHARD CARRIER ON APRIL 25, 201827 COMMENTS




When the question of the historicity of Jesus comes up in an honest professional context, we are not asking whether the Gospel Jesus existed. All non-fundamentalist scholars agree that that Jesus never did exist. Christian apologetics is pseudo-history. No different than defending Atlantis. Or Moroni. Or women descending from Adam’s rib.


No. We aren’t interested in that.


When it comes to Jesus, just as with anyone else, real history is about trying to figure out what, if anything, we can really know about the man depicted in the New Testament (his actual life and teachings), through untold layers of distortion and mythmaking; and what, if anything, we can know about his role in starting the Christian movement that spread after his death. Consequently, I will here disregard fundamentalists and apologists as having no honest part in this debate, any more than they do on evolution or cosmology or anything else they cannot be honest about even to themselves."


Historicity Big and Small: How Historians Try to Rescue Jesus • Richard Carrier
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
So? That is interpretation of what is read not what was written.


Face palm. What is written CAN BE INTERPRETED IN MANY WAYS? Any new sect leader can also claim personal revelations. Do you turn the other cheek when ISIS attacks? Do you insist women remain silent in church unless speaking prophecy? Did you marry? It's better not to. Matthew - faith will make you whole, ask and you shall recieve. Christian Science members don't use medical help with illness. That is their interpretation.

Unfortunately the American Cancer Society documented over 200 cases of children with curable cancer who died as a result of this group.

Faith Healing



So you just corrected yourself. What you just said was that "some scholars believe this and others believe that".


What you have to read are dissenting views to your position.


No, and now there are 2 issues. First I still don't know what you mean by "history says otherwise"? I haven't said anything different than what the position of scholarship has been saying for many decades? You are so worried about catching small deviations that you are unable to even have a conversation. But you don't seem to realize you are making no point whatsoever. As usual because you have no interest in what is true and learning the historicity of a religion you actually believe in. I don't fully blame you because none of it supports the myths being actually true.

All of the evidence points to Genesis is a myth. But there are 2 sources that it has been narrowed down to. One is 6BC and one is 5 BC, this is how honest scholarship works. Until there is enough evidence to be certain they leave room for both possibilities.


Science is not apologetics. They don't decide what is true and affirm it based on what they want to be true, emotions, feelings and anecdotal stories.






Again, you just corrected yourself "More recent thinking" - means "other people believe differently"


Bias.


That's a first for me. Seeing a modern person who thinks the gaining of knowledge from archaeology and studies of original sources and newly found ancient text is some sort of "bias"? Not only that but doesn't understand that history is an ongoing study and as information is found scholars can update their knowledge?


What is known for a fact is Genesis has multiple authors, different text use different Hebrew - Archaic, standard, late, Israelian. Each writer also uses different terms and writing styles. It is largely re-workings of Mesopotamian texts. There are 4 main authors and those are the Yahwist, the Elohist, the Deuteronomist and the Priestly source.

They also have the same stories written by each author in alternate texts.


The Yahwist source was dated to 6BC, others 5BC, this is the reason for different dates.

Hebrew Bible scholar Van Seeters writes about this topic for one, there is a lot of information to. understand on this one topic

I am currently reading The Composition of the Pentateuch by Joel Baden on the advise of Dr Josh Bowen, youtuber and Assyriologist he claims this is a very good book to understand these issues. I found a copy online.

None of this is "bias" or contains any "gotcha" material. This is how scholars do honest scholarship. Sitting on the sidelines knowing literally zero and looking for surface discrepancies is a bad look and is really demonstrating the true bias here. A bias that insists on one and only one truth, backed by no evidence and pure word of mouth, indoctrination and emotional attachment. As well as buying into apologetics written by non-experts who buy any Google truth that aligns with what they want to be true.




44:01
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I don't see how you are reaching that conclusion? You are continually attempting to put me into a box that fits your beliefs and apologetics.
Ehrman was a fundamentalist Christian, he himself claims he had to take an honest look at what the evidence presented which did not agree with apologetics and supported the Gospels being a mythology.
Why would you call me or any scholar dishonest? Your translation is completely wrong and completely unjustified? Now scholars may have some disagreements about the evidence regarding Jesus being an actual human man vs the entire story being a myth, all historians view the savior demigod narrative as a mythology. No evidence supports that any more than does evidence for Islam or Hinduism.

Again (how many times do I have to say this?) my bias is towards what is true. Scholars use evidence. But Ehrman isn't looking for the source of the mythology, he doesn't care where the theology originates from. If Paul was using Hellenism or making it all up from his imagination he doesn't seem to care. None of them disagree about the Gospels being true. They disagree about the evidence for Jesus being a real human or being made up wholecloth.
The mythicist stance is growing among scholars because the evidence is strong.
But you haven't established "what is true".

I am not asking you to believe what I believe... I'm just saying you haven't given anything but a viewpoint.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
That is definitely not true. First Borg is not a historian.

Appeal to authority fallacy.

As if scholars and theologians can't read history.

sorry... all you have is opinions.

To settle this... you will believe what you want to believe. I believe what was written. You have the fruit of your belief and I enjoy the fruit of my belief.

In context of my faith, I subscribe to: Luke 24:25 And he said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!

As well as: Matthew 13:58 He didn't do many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

So while you rationalize away the benefits, I will still enjoy them.

Or like Moses said:
Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,

Of course, I speak in context of my signature, I'm sure you subscribe to a different worldview
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
But you haven't established "what is true".

I am not asking you to believe what I believe... I'm just saying you haven't given anything but a viewpoint.


Right and evolution is just a viewpoint. Quantum mechanics is just a viewpoint. The history of the Roman Empire is just a viewpoint.

Why is it so hard to understand these viewpoints are based on huge amounts of evidence (and not viewpoints?)? Meanwhile you believe something based on no evidence and massive evidence it's borrowed mythology/theology. By taking established history and refusing to accept it and only call it "a viewpoint" you are doing typical apologetics.

It's an undeniable fact that the concepts used by early theologians are Platonic ideas. It's a fact that the NT is Hellenistic theology from saviors, salvation, heaven, baptism, eucharist, Logos and much more. Those are facts. 2nd century apologists said it plain.
Genesis is written is 4 different Hebrews from different time periods and there are 4 different versions, the stories are slightly different each contains some stories and not all. These were pieced together to form the version now known. How they are dated I'm reading more on that.
There are not "viewpoints". No one is saying "hey my view is that Genesis is probably copying something older". Older creation myths were found and experts in literary comparison found what even a plain reading demonstrated. One of the Proverbs is even verbatim an Egyptian text of wisdom. They borrowed stories. Hellenism has a huge impact on all the surrounding religions and changed them all in the same way. Dr Carrier points this out in the source I provided and timestamped.

I don't believe just what people believe. I believe what the evidence presents. I am just scratching the surface of evidence. Carriers book alone is 700 pgs and has 42 pages of just listing his sources. The book on the Pentateuch has 21 pages of sources. There is a peer-review process to catch any errors. Which you were asking about - proper sources - a few weeks back.

You are just leaning on falsifiability here, another apologist trick. If someone believed in Thor and I said Thor is just a Germanic myth adopted by Marvel comics and expanded, they could play this game all day. "Yeah but you haven't proven he isn't true". We haven't proven Muhammad wasn't telling the full truth or Joe Smith or alien abductees or Bob Lazar either.
But there is evidence that suggests none of them are real and the evidence against literal theology is vast. The historical evidence is strong enough the entire field considers religion to be a myth. Even fundamentalists had to admit they were wrong. Not just Ehrman. Dr Bowen and several others as well. Possibly Lataster, now a mythicist.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
You are just leaning on falsifiability here, another apologist trick. I
#266

You are a free-will spiritual agent. God, in my view, gives us the right to choose what we want to believe and receive results thereof.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Appeal to authority fallacy.

As if scholars and theologians can't read history.

Again, they can, except they DON'T. They read apologetics revision of history, not real historians. Even worse, in the case you are talking about, he posted ALL INCORRECT HISTORY. So you are so wrong here it's pitiful.

In fact, let's look at his "historical " statements

1)Borg - "The pagan worldview despised the concept of resurrection"



Well, scholar Mary Boyce PhD demonstrated that the culture who occupied he Hebrew nation for the longest before Christianity, the Persians, did have a resurrection myth:

Revelations


but Zoroaster taught that the blessed must wait for this culmination till Frashegird and the 'future body' (Pahlavi 'tan i pasen'), when the earth will give up the bones of the dead (Y 30.7). This general resurrection will be followed by the Last Judgment, which will divide all the righteous from the wicked, both those who have lived until that time and those who have been judged already. Then Airyaman, Yazata of friendship and healing, together with Atar, Fire, will melt all the metal in the mountains, and this will flow in a glowing river over the earth. All mankind must pass through this river, and, as it is said in a Pahlavi text, 'for him who is righteous it will seem like warm milk, and for him who is wicked, it will seem as if he is walking in the • flesh through molten metal' (GBd XXXIV. r 8-r 9). In this great apocalyptic vision Zoroaster perhaps fused, unconsciously, tales of volcanic eruptions and streams of burning lava with his own experience of Iranian ordeals by molten metal; and according to his stern original teaching, strict justice will prevail then, as at each individual j udgment on earth by a fiery ordeal. So at this last ordeal of all the wicked will suffer a second death, and will perish off the face of the earth. The Daevas and legions of darkness will already have been annihilated in a last great battle with the Yazatas; and the river of metal will flow down into hell, slaying Angra Mainyu and burning up the last vestige of wickedness in the universe.


Ahura Mazda and the six Amesha Spentas will then solemnize a lt, spiritual yasna, offering up the last sacrifice (after which death wW be no more), and making a preparation of the mystical 'white haoma', which will confer immortality on the resurrected bodies of all the blessed, who will partake of it. Thereafter men will beome like the Immortals themselves, of one thought, word and deed, unaging, free from sickness, without corruption, forever joyful in the kingdom of God upon earth. For it is in this familiar and beloved world, restored to its original perfection, that, according to Zoroaster, eternity will be passed in bliss, and not in a remote insubstantial Paradise. So the time of Separation is a renewal of the time of Creation, except that no return is prophesied to the original uniqueness of living things. Mountain and valley will give place once more to level plain; but whereas in the beginning there was one plant, one animal, one man, the rich variety and number that have since issued from these will remain forever. Similarly the many divinities who were brought into being by Ahura Mazda will continue to have their separate existences. There is no prophecy of their re-absorption into the Godhead. As a Pahlavi text puts it, after Frashegird 'Ohrmaid and the Amahraspands and all Yazads and men will be together. .. ; every place will resemble a garden in spring, in which


there are all kinds of trees and flowers ... and it will be entirely the creation of Ohrrnazd' (Pahl.Riv.Dd. XLVIII, 99, lOO, l07).


Mary Boyce,


Zoroastrians-Their-Religious-Beliefs-and-Practice

Wow that sounds familiar? It's also the first known use of - Apocalypticism is the religious belief that the end of the world is imminent, even within one's own lifetime.
Arising initially in Persian Zoroastrianism, apocalypticism was developed more fully in Judaic, Christian, and Islamic eschatological speculation.[1][4][5][6][7]
Apocalypticism - Wikipedia

yes exactly, it was borrowed by Christians and put in the NT. The Church would definitely call the Zoroastrians "pagan". So, Revelation is 100% pagan and your apologist is 100% WRONG. See how apologetics just lies like crazy? "The pagan worldview despised the concept of resurrection"
Uh, no sorry the Christians learned it from them.


Appeal to authority fallacy.

As if scholars and theologians can't read history.

Then Borg's "history" asks - Where did this “copycat” interpretation originate?"

Uh, well how about 2nd century apologists who ADMITTED IT?????

Saint Justin Martyr (110-165)



Dialogue with Trypho daialogue 69


"“Be well assured, then, Trypho,” I continued, “that I am established in the knowledge of and faith in the Scriptures by those counterfeits which he who is called the devil is said to have performed among the Greeks; just as some were wrought by the Magi in Egypt, and others by the false prophets in Elijah’s days. For when they tell that Bacchus, son of Jupiter, was begotten by [Jupiter’s] intercourse with Semele, and that he was the discoverer of the vine; and when they relate, that being torn in pieces, and having died, he rose again, and ascended to heaven; and when they introduce wine into his mysteries, do I not perceive that [the devil] has imitated the prophecy announced by the patriarch Jacob, and recorded by Moses? And when they tell that Hercules was strong, and travelled over all the world, and was begotten by Jove of Alcmene, and ascended to heaven when he died, do I not perceive that the Scripture which speaks of Christ, ‘strong as a giant to run his race,’ has been in like manner imitated? And when he [the devil] brings forward Æsculapius as the raiser of the dead and healer of all diseases, may I not say that in this matter likewise he has imitated the prophecies about Christ? "

yes, Jesus was clearly like all the other Greek demigods. Because Satan went back to the future and fooled everyone. Whatever.

 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Appeal to authority fallacy.


As if scholars and theologians can't read history.


How about his dying/rising demigod history that he "read"



Apologist -

Osiris

He was one of the most important deities of ancient Egypt. He was the god of fertility and the dead. The earliest full account of Osiris comes from Plutarch (“Concerning Isis and Osiris”), which dates to the second century AD. In the account, Osiris’ brother (Set) buries him a sarcophagus, drowning in the Nile River. Set dismembers Osiris’ dead body “into anything from fourteen to forty-two parts.”[43] He goes on to rule in the kingdom of the dead.[44]


Osiris was not resurrected. As argued above, he lived after death in the Egyptian Netherworld—not on Earth. Walter Burket (a professor of classics at the University of Zurich) writes, “Not even Osiris returns to life, but instead attains transcendent life beyond death.”[45]




Scholar -

Osiris


Not only does Plutarch say Osiris returned to life and was recreated, exact terms for resurrection (anabiôsis and paliggenesia: On Isis and Osiris 35; see my discussion in The Empty Tomb, pp. 154-55), and also describe his physically returning to earth after his death (Plutarch, On Isis and Osiris 19), but the physical resurrection of Osiris’s corpse is explicitly described in pre-Christian pyramid inscriptions! Osiris was also resurrected, according to Plutarch, on the “third day,” and died during a full moon, just like Christ: Passover occurs during the full moon; and in Plutarch, On Isis and Osiris 39 and 42, Osiris dies on the 17th of Athyr, the concluding day of the full moon, and is raised on the 19th, two days later—thus three days inclusively, just like Jesus.


Plutarch writes that “Osiris came to Horus from the other world and exercised and trained him for the battle,” and taught him lessons, and then “Osiris consorted with Isis after his death and she became the mother of Harpocrates.” It’s hard to get more explicit than that. Contrary to Ehrman, there is no mention of Osiris not being in his resurrected body at that point. To the contrary, every version of his myth has him revive only after Isis reassembles and reanimates his corpse. As Plutarch says, “the soul of Osiris is everlasting and imperishable, but his body Typhon oftentimes dismembers and causes to disappear, and that Isis wanders hither and yon in her search for it, and fits it together again” (On Isis and Osiris 54).


And indeed, carved on the walls of the pyramids centuries before Christianity began were the declarations of the goddess Isis (or Horus, or their agents), “I have come to thee…that I may revivify thee, that I may assemble for thee thy bones, that I may collect for thee thy flesh, that I may assemble for thee thy dismembered limbs…raise thyself up, king, [as for] Osiris; thou livest!” (Pyramid Texts 1684a-1685a and 1700, = Utterance 606; cf. Utterance 670); “Raise thyself up; shake off thy dust; remove the dirt which is on thy face; loose thy bandages!” (Pyramid Texts 1363a-b, = Utterance 553); “[As for] Osiris, collect thy bones; arrange thy limbs; shake off thy dust; untie thy bandages; the tomb is open for thee; the double doors of the coffin are undone for thee; the double doors of heaven are open for thee…thy soul is in thy body…raise thyself up!” (Pyramid Texts 207b-209a and 2010b-2011a, = Utterance 676). That sure sounds like a physical resurrection of Osiris’s body to me. (As even confirmed by the most recent translation of James P. Allen, cf. pp. 190, 224-25, 272. The spells he clarifies are sung to and about the resident Pharaoh, but in the role of Osiris, receiving the same resurrection as Osiris, e.g. “there has been done for me what was done for my father Osiris on the day of tying bones together, of making functional the feet,” “do for him that which you did for his brother Osiris on the day,” etc.)


Plutarch goes on to explicitly state that this resurrection on earth (set in actual earth history) in the same body he died in (reassembled and restored to life) was the popular belief, promoted in allegorical tales by the priesthood—as was also the god’s later descent to rule Hades. But the secret “true” belief taught among the initiated priesthood was that Osiris becomes incarnate, dies, and rises back to life every year in a secret cosmic battle in the sublunar heavens. So in fact, contrary to Ehrman (who evidently never actually read any of the sources on this point), Plutarch says the belief that Osiris went to Hades was false (On Isis and Osiris 78); and yet even in that “public” tale, Osiris rules in Hades in his old body of flesh, restored to life. Hence still plainly resurrected. But as Plutarch explains (On Isis and Osiris 25-27 & 54 and 58), the esoteric truth was that the god’s death and resurrection occurs in sublunar space, after each year descending and taking on a mortal body to die in; and that event definitely involved coming back to life in a new superior body, in which Osiris ascends to a higher realm to rule from above, all exactly as was said of the risen Jesus (who no more remained on earth than Osiris did). The only difference is that when importing this into Judaism, which had not a cyclical-eternal but a linear-apocalyptic conception of theological history, they converted the god’s dying-and-rising to a singular apocalyptic event.


And that’s just Osiris. Clearly raised from the dead in his original, deceased body, restored to life; visiting people on earth in his risen body; and then ruling from heaven above. And that directly adjacent to Judea, amidst a major Jewish population in Alexandria, and popular across the whole empire. But as Plutarch said in On the E at Delphi 9, many religions of his day “narrate deaths and vanishings, followed by returns to life and resurrections.” Not just that one. Plutarch names Dionysus as but an example (and by other names “Zagreus, Nyctelius, and Isodaetes“). And we know for a fact this Dionysus wasn’t the only example Plutarch would have known. Plutarch only names him because he was so closely associated with Osiris, and the most famous.






apologist

Dionysus

Dionysus was not resurrected. Dionysus was dismembered, eaten, and then sewn into the thigh of Zeus, where he was reborn from Zeus thigh. The comparison here doesn’t at all seem to square with the story of Jesus, and the similarities are vaguely connected at best. Edward Winston (of the Skeptic Project) writes, “Dionysus died each winter and was resurrected in the spring.”


Scholar -

Dionysus


Dionysus (also popularly known as Bacchus) had many different tales told of him, just as Osiris did. But in one popularly known, he was killed by being torn apart as a baby (Justin Martyr, Apology 1.21; Plutarch, On Isis and Osiris 35; Diodorus, Library of History 5.75.4 and 3.62.6); he was then resurrected by a human woman (Semele) conceiving a new body for him in her womb after drinking a magic slushy made from bits of his corpse (Hyginus, Fabulae 167). This is a literal resurrection again, just by an elaborate mechanism. The god definitely dies, and then returns to life by acquiring the same kind of body he once had, assembled and “regrown” from parts of his old one. In this version of his myth, he is a full god (son of Zeus and Persephone) but still mortal (capable of being killed by dismemberment, like a vampire); he then is “reborn” a demigod (from the womb of a fully mortal human woman). He was the savior god central to the Bacchic mysteries, one of the most widely known and celebrated in the Western world at that time. Those baptized into his cult received eternal life in paradise; and just like Christians (1 Corinthians 15:29), Dionysians could even baptize themselves on behalf of deceased loved ones, and thus rescue those already dead.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
sorry... all you have is opinions.


I haven't posted one single opinion. I stick to the evidence presented by scholars who are the experts in the field. Meanwhile you haven't posted one single piece of scholarship and have been giving entirely opinions? Your worldview is literally an opinion and you try to make it like it's a bad thing? It's your ONLY THING???


So that doesn't make any sense? But I'm still not using opinion. When ever have I offered my opinion. I am offering knowledge. You realize that historical knowledge, even when it shows your beliefs are not what you thought they were, is still knowledge?





To settle this... you will believe what you want to believe. I believe what was written. You have the fruit of your belief and I enjoy the fruit of my belief.


A lot was written. The Quran was written. Genesis was written several times. Greek myths were written. The Logos was written by Plato. Then it was written by John.


Knowledge and truth are their own rewards. I want to know what is true.




In context of my faith, I subscribe to: Luke 24:25 And he said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!


Ancient religions claiming they have the truth should not be compelling in this day. Those are myths. The Quran says it as well. Does that make it true about Allah? This goes for you as well, you are an unbeliever of Allah. See how poitless quoting archaic claims are?


The most holy Quran - Cattle

6:109 And they swear a solemn oath by Allah that if there come unto them a portent they will believe therein. Say; Portents are with Allah and (so is) that which telleth you that if such came unto them they would not believe.

6:110 We confound their hearts and their eyes. As they believed not therein at the first, We let them wander blindly on in their contumacy.





As well as: Matthew 13:58 He didn't do many mighty works there because of their unbelief.


So while you rationalize away the benefits, I will still enjoy them.


This is a great topic and by simple statistics it can be shown that religious people still get cancer and experience terrible things at the exact same rate as secular, Islamic, whatever.

So that is a delusion. However your own religion teaches you this, you are just focusing on what you want to be true. Its in Matthew and the writer took it from the Greek version of Job:


He makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust”


More evidence that the Gospels are fiction written using the Septuigant.







When the fundamentalist loses they curse your children. Or passive-aggressively threaten your children (typical of your posts)


Of course we can look to any childrens hospital and see mostly religious families suffering the worst of the worst. I have been there. Christians experience the worst of the worst just like secular people. So your mumbo-jumbo witchcraft is BS.


But Allah has the same to say about your offspring,


The Quran - Cattle


6:87 With some of their forefathers and their offspring and their brethren; and We chose them and guided them unto a straight path.

6:88 Such is the guidance of Allah wherewith He guideth whom He will of His bondmen. But if they had set up (for worship) aught beside Him, (all) that they did would have been vain.

6:89 Those are they unto whom We gave the Scripture and command and prophethood. But if these disbelieve therein, then indeed We shall entrust it to a people who will not be disbelievers therein.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
#266

You are a free-will spiritual agent. God, in my view, gives us the right to choose what we want to believe and receive results thereof.

And you are still leaning on the falsifiability argument. No one can prove Santa Clause or Yahweh isn't true with 100% accuracy.

No one gives us the right to chose what to believe when it comes to truth. If you see a bus headed down a street you are about to cross you have no choice but to believe it. If you see a mountain you will have no choice but to believe in mountains.

You DO have a choice as to which modern fiction you believe. You can accept the emotional attachment and the release of fear of death to follow an ancient story. But you can also choose to face the truth and investigate the claims. The people who make that choice to find truth no matter what always become secular. Always. How you view Islam is how secular people view Christians as well. It's an old story, completely made up. No foundation in truth or reality. If it is I invite you to demonstrate the evidence. Rather than make claims about how it's an "opinion".
Do you think your views on Islam are "opinion" or are you sure that isn't real? And you don't even have the historical facts to back it up. You just know.

Believe this story and get the afterlife. Biggest red flag ever. Proven myths, that are not in the OT, Greeks show up in Israel, it's their myth, then it's Christian. Not. Real.
 
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Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
And you are still leaning on the falsifiability argument. No one can prove Santa Clause or Yahweh isn't true with 100% accuracy.

False equivalency. (Unless we are speaking of Saint Nicholaus - a real person). We just have different world-views.

Joeir, let's face it. You will hold onto what you believe to be true and I will hold onto what I know to be true. We aren't changing and that, in reality, is OK.

We can live together with love.

:)

shalom?
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
False equivalency. (Unless we are speaking of Saint Nicholaus - a real person). We just have different world-views.

It isn't false equivalency? You said "still doesn't prove it isn't true". This is the falsifiability argument. It's impossible to completely show any deity, supernatural entity, aliens, Big Foot..doesn't exist. It's not about that. It's about looking at evidence.

Joeir, let's face it. You will hold onto what you believe to be true and I will hold onto what I know to be true.

This is incorrect. I don't "hold on" to anything and this isn't about "my beliefs". I follow what evidence presents. Just as I don't believe Muhammad actually spoke to a divine being (and angels are fiction) I don't believe your religious claims either. Both are based on evidence. Many types of evidence.
For someone who "knows" something is true you haven't presented one bit of evidence? Are completely unfamiliar with every aspect of historicity. The Jehovah's Witnesses also "know" that you are going to hell when the rapture comes (it's coming soon). Muslims "know" their religion is true and you will suffer a "painful doom" as an un-believer.
Every religious fundamentalist in every religion "knows" what is true. And they are all completely different. Let's not forget the Jewish Haredi who's wives support them (along with money from the state) and the men only study the Torah all day. They also "know what is true".

Scientists also know things that are true. But when you go to Israel it's THE SAME periodic table they use. It's the same quantum mechanics where ever you go. The ghost stories, all different.



We can live together with love.

shalom?

We already do that. I don't hold any real ill-will towards discussion partners. That isn't the issue. A debate forum is the place to examine beliefs and ask questions.

We aren't changing and that, in reality, is OK.


That isn't the aim. I don't expect that when talking to a Muslim or a Christian I am going to change their beliefs? Emotional attachments to beliefs that provide identity and worldview cannot be changed with facts. That is known by science:

"If you’ve ever had an argument with a friend who has an opposing view on a polarizing topic, you know this to be true. Even if you present them with facts and logical arguments that debunk their views, the more they defend their stand vigorously. If you have ever wondered why this is so, it turns out that the inner workings of our brain are responsible for why we tend to cling to our initial positions even in the face of contrary evidence.

This article will explore the various reasons why facts don’t change our minds. By recognizing our own biases and knowing how our brain responds to stimuli, one can avoid falling into the trap of faulty thinking patterns and assess information objectively.

Why Facts Don’t Change Our Mind: Table of Contents
  1. Science Denial: Some Harmful Examples
  2. Belief Perseverance
  3. Confirmation Bias
  4. Avoidance of Complexity
  5. Causality and the Ignorance Gap
  6. Emotions and Assessing Risk
  7. Convincing Others to Change Their Minds
  8. Clinging to and Changing Beliefs"
  9. Why Facts Don’t Change Our Minds and Beliefs are so Hard to Change? | Research.com
I have two goals, one to see if the person can present some information that is actually valid that I have not considered so I can debunk it or see if it counts in favor of their position and also to promote rational, skeptical and empirical fact based thinking for people who are still on the fence or actually open minded. Information that they can follow up on and make their own choices.
I was Christian and was never exposed to history, comparative religion, philosophy, literary analysis, the Biblical historicity and archaeology field and didn't know words written by an apologist might not be what is actually true. Didn't know rational or empirical thinking and that it can be applied to all things. Can it tell us everything? No. There could be some intelligence behind reality. But Zeus and his son (also mortal woman), probably not real. Yahweh and later Greek myths added on, probably not real.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
LOL... yes? :confused:
I prefer "Conditionally accepting what the overwhelming evidence points to." If I want to believe that the Tooth Fairy exists, that doesn't mean that the Tooth Fairy actually exists.

However, she does. :)
 
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