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"Christian Nationalism is Not Christianity"

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
We well know what the Trump team was trying to do, as the evidence shows Guiliani, Eastman, and some others at the Willard Hotel in their "war room", and we also now know that there were conversations between them and Donald Jr. with Trump himself being on the phone with his son at times [I can't remember if Eric was there or was in contact]. We also now know they were in contact with the Proud Boys, and we know that the at least a couple in the latter have testified that they were given the OK to assault the Capitol from the "war room".

IOW, it was certainly not some impromptu assault on the Capitol.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Abraham and Moses are literary creations. The early OT is from the wisdom literature era. Genesis is Mesopotamian and Babylonian

With our foundational position at such odds... I doubt if we can make any headway here.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
"Jewish" is a nationality, not a religion. "Judaism" is the religion. Also, a reminder that eretz Israel was often punished by YHWH according to the Tanakh for not following the [613] Jewish Laws.

Let's bring it back here, and let me ask you this question: Is capital punishment today in this supposedly "Christian nation" moral under the Gospel? Just yes or no, please.
I think we are arguing about semantics.
Jew
noun
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\ ˈjü \
Definition of Jew


1: a person belonging to a continuation through descent or conversion of the ancient Jewish people
2: one whose religion is Judaism

did it cease being of the faith of Judaism, which makes the Jews - Jewish, The country is still Jewish.

obviously the answer is they did not. (I though I would help you with the answer)

So... we are Christian even if the majority have different gods.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
Yes as I already explained, a planned systematic sin is different than a crime of passion.

It is. Though one could sin from passion or one could sin systematically. Or a group (mob) could sin from passion, or a group(institution) could sin systematically. There is nothing practically between the four possibilities that is different in either nature or effect. The only difference lay in scope.

Why did Jesus say that one sin was greater than another?
Pilate didn't plot against the Kingdom of heaven deliberately, like the ones who delivered Jesus to Pilate did. He was just caught between a rock and hard place, and trying to make the best of a bad situation. He still sinned by not freeing Jesus, but again, he wasn't plotting evil, he was trying to please everyone and keep his job.
I am talking about the everyday humans, who like yourself claim to be Christian and thr actions of a subset of those humans who attempt to coerce the humans humans who do not claim to be Christian. Unless you consider Jesus to be some any old random jerk, just like the rest of us I reject your analogy.
 
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Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
We well know what the Trump team was trying to do, as the evidence shows Guiliani, Eastman, and some others at the Willard Hotel in their "war room", and we also now know that there were conversations between them and Donald Jr. with Trump himself being on the phone with his son at times [I can't remember if Eric was there or was in contact]. We also now know they were in contact with the Proud Boys, and we know that the at least a couple in the latter have testified that they were given the OK to assault the Capitol from the "war room".

IOW, it was certainly not some impromptu assault on the Capitol.
As a Christian I believe in the dogma Vox Populi. Vox Dei.
If a nation, united, needs to set up a revolution, it is God's will.
This is my thought. And in such cases, when an entire nation is wildly angry with the governing elites, they will be sided by the army. The army is armed. The elites are unarmed. So the army will win.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
I do not know what you mean by 'also' in this context.
This is a religious thread, not a political one.:)
Religiously...the governors owe loyalty to the populace.
If the governing bodies betray this confidence, the populace can rise up. Regardless of the motivations.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
If a nation, united, needs to set up a revolution, it is God's will.
Including the revolutions that toss out God?
This is a religious thread, not a political one.:)
Religiously...the governors owe loyalty to the populace.
If the governing bodies betray this confidence, the populace can rise up. Regardless of the motivations.
I cannot quite tell. This sounds like yes, but you never quite say. Nevermind.

Suppose a small portion of the populace claim that they are betrayed, then rebel, and successfully become a oppressive regime due to the fact that although they are a minor faction of the population, they control most of the critical resources? Whose side is God on then?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
You said, "OK... I just see it differently. If you continue telling your child who stole, "you are a thief" they will become a thief. If you continuously tell your child "you're no good", they will become no good"
You can disagree until your face turns blue, but there is no text in your post that addresses the difference between a thief and a theft. The only thing in your text is a claim about the negative impact of constantly berating a child.
The difference is years ago I did commit several acts of theft. That did make me a thief. But that was years ago. If you're still going to call me a thief you might as well still call me a Christian.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
I cannot quite tell. This sounds like yes, but you never quite say. Nevermind.

Suppose a small portion of the populace claim that they are betrayed, then rebel, and successfully become a oppressive regime due to the fact that although they are a minor faction of the population, they control most of the critical resources? Whose side is God on then?
I meant the majority of the population.
Vox Populi Vox Dei refers to the overwhelming majority of a nation.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
With our foundational position at such odds... I doubt if we can make any headway here.

Well it isn't my position. I'm listening to historical scholars who are the people who study this.
As the Pastor/historian from Centre Place lectures points out, literary criticism, (study , evaluation and interpretation of biblical literature) reveals several lines of evidence Genesis was written in the 6th century.


11:13 By the time Ezra read the law to the Judeans who returned from exile, the Pentateuch was likely assembled init’s present form.

Jews and Christians after Ezra frequently allude to characters and stories in Genesis (for example Paul frequently alludes to Adam, Abraham and Moses)

However the earliest prophetic authors in the Bible (300 years before Ezra) were apparently unfamiliar with key Genesis stories like Adam and Eve.

Original Isaiah frequently talks about David and Abraham but fails to mention Adam and Eve, Cain & Abel, Noah. These are likewise omitted by all other pre-exilic prophetic authors.

17th century critics pointed out numerous anachronisms. Analysis shows multiple authors. When separated each source has it’s own coherence 46:10


But as I also pointed out from worldhistory and Professor Stavrakopoulou the Mesopotamian, Babylonian and Egyptian sources in the OT are undeniable. In her latest book she uses the original Hebrew to show the way Yahweh was written about and things he says are exactly the same as all Gods going back to the Sumerians.

Francesca Stavrakopoulou Discusses Her Latest Book,

3:15 Yahweh is the same as older Greek gods. Anthropormorphic, dynamic, colorful, emotional, vivid, changeable, masculine, real body parts. In "God: An Anatom



literary criticism, access to Mesopotamian mythology was not available until recent centuries. We didn't know one of the proverb books was a copy of an Egyptian book of wisdon:
"The third unit, 22:17–24:22, is headed "bend your ear and hear the words of the wise". A large part of this section is a recasting of a second-millennium BCE Egyptian work, the Instruction of Amenemope, and may have reached the Hebrew author(s) through an Aramaic translation. "
or that this literature was actually common way before the Hebrew Bible
"The "wisdom" genre was widespread throughout the ancient Near East, and reading Proverbs alongside the examples recovered from Egypt and Mesopotamia reveals the common ground shared by international wisdom."
Book of Proverbs - Wikipedia

Also people didn't know that the NT was Greek theology and philosophy, including scholars because Greek wasn't available to most people. The early theologians had studied under people who were Neo-Platonist.

Also no church used the 4 gospels until the 3rd century. The 40 gospels were spread out among sects in the 2nd century and there were no "offical" beliefs. Each considered the others heretics.

I don't know how the speaker for the Centre Place lectures (who is a pastor) compartmentalizes and structures his beliefs or even what exactly he believes but he is well versed in history in the lectures I have seen so far.

I am interested in knowledge, not claims not supported by evidence. I am not interested in chemistry teachers telling historical scholars they are ALL WRONG because his extremely limited beliefs say so.
I am just following the evidence. Any good evidence is welcome.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Well it isn't my position. I'm listening to historical scholars who are the people who study this.
As the Pastor/historian from Centre Place lectures points out, literary criticism, (study , evaluation and interpretation of biblical literature) reveals several lines of evidence Genesis was written in the 6th century.

The problem I have with scholars are various:
  1. sometimes they are approaching it through their own bias
  2. scholars are all over the place.
  3. Some are downright wrong such as "Genesis was written in the 6th century" when history says otherwise.

11:13 By the time Ezra read the law to the Judeans who returned from exile, the Pentateuch was likely assembled init’s present form.

Jews and Christians after Ezra frequently allude to characters and stories in Genesis (for example Paul frequently alludes to Adam, Abraham and Moses)

However the earliest prophetic authors in the Bible (300 years before Ezra) were apparently unfamiliar with key Genesis stories like Adam and Eve.

Original Isaiah frequently talks about David and Abraham but fails to mention Adam and Eve, Cain & Abel, Noah. These are likewise omitted by all other pre-exilic prophetic authors.

17th century critics pointed out numerous anachronisms. Analysis shows multiple authors. When separated each source has it’s own coherence 46:10


But as I also pointed out from worldhistory and Professor Stavrakopoulou the Mesopotamian, Babylonian and Egyptian sources in the OT are undeniable. In her latest book she uses the original Hebrew to show the way Yahweh was written about and things he says are exactly the same as all Gods going back to the Sumerians.

This is where I find intelligence is a hindrance.

Notice the word "likely". Translated, "We don't know for sure but this is my viewpoint" and from that point they begin talking like their viewpoint is true and make judgment calls based on an opinion until it the "viewpoint" is forgotten and acted on as if it was definitely true.

Another example would be " However the earliest prophetic authors in the Bible (300 years before Ezra) were apparently unfamiliar with key Genesis stories like Adam and Eve."

Here, again, they offer an opinion and from there make statements as if their opinion is true.

It is like they are saying "The MUST mention stories lie Adam and Eve for my personal satisfaction". versus, "this prophet is zeroing into a subject that has nothing to do with Adam and Eve".

Francesca Stavrakopoulou Discusses Her Latest Book,

3:15 Yahweh is the same as older Greek gods. Anthropormorphic, dynamic, colorful, emotional, vivid, changeable, masculine, real body parts. In "God: An Anatom

literary criticism, access to Mesopotamian mythology was not available until recent centuries. We didn't know one of the proverb books was a copy of an Egyptian book of wisdon:
"The third unit, 22:17–24:22, is headed "bend your ear and hear the words of the wise". A large part of this section is a recasting of a second-millennium BCE Egyptian work, the Instruction of Amenemope, and may have reached the Hebrew author(s) through an Aramaic translation. "
or that this literature was actually common way before the Hebrew Bible
"The "wisdom" genre was widespread throughout the ancient Near East, and reading Proverbs alongside the examples recovered from Egypt and Mesopotamia reveals the common ground shared by international wisdom."
Book of Proverbs - Wikipedia
.

I'm not sure what is the point here. Let me offer a different perspective (one that I have used before).

Daniel Boone was a real figure. Let's assume he wrote an autobiography and it went down his generation. Meanwhile others heard and interacted with Daniel Boone and the stories began to get exaggerated and someone wrote their books on what they believed was true.

All would have some truth to it yet only one would be true. So, assuming there is indeed one God, time would cause viewpoints to change yet they would still be similar in some fashion. But similarity doesn't translate into "one got it from another".

The impact of Greece didn't come into existence until about 330BC. The Hebraic scriptures were written way before that so the "Greek gods" had no association to YHWH. IMV

Also people didn't know that the NT was Greek theology and philosophy, including scholars because Greek wasn't available to most people. The early theologians had studied under people who were Neo-Platonist.

Also no church used the 4 gospels until the 3rd century. The 40 gospels were spread out among sects in the 2nd century and there were no "offical" beliefs. Each considered the others heretics.

I don't know how the speaker for the Centre Place lectures (who is a pastor) compartmentalizes and structures his beliefs or even what exactly he believes but he is well versed in history in the lectures I have seen so far.

I am interested in knowledge, not claims not supported by evidence. I am not interested in chemistry teachers telling historical scholars they are ALL WRONG because his extremely limited beliefs say so.
I am just following the evidence. Any good evidence is welcome.

I disagree that the NT was Greek theology and philosophy. I would also disagree that Greek wasn't available to most people. Like English is today, Greek was available because it was a world Empire as was Latin during the Roman Empire.

To rephrase what you said, "The 4 Gospels were canonized labeled as the Moratorian Canon 170AD" To say that it wasn't used is to ignore what was done.

So I relegate that position as someone's personal bias.

Then someone repeats it until, further down the line, people think it is true.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Definition of Jew


1: a person belonging to a continuation through descent or conversion of the ancient Jewish people
2: one whose religion is Judaism

If one converts to Judaism they must be regarded as being Jewish by others in Judaism per the Tanakh. When I converted to Judaism roughly 25 years ago, I had to be considered Jewish at our synagogue. If one is not in Judaism, they may or may not be considered Jewish.

did it cease being of the faith of Judaism, which makes the Jews - Jewish, The country is still Jewish.
Not really. Secular Jews and those of other faiths together actually comprise a majority of those living in Israel.

So... we are Christian even if the majority have different gods.
You and I are, but clearly our country is not Christian legally, and one can argue also religiously.

Have a Most Blessed Lord's Day.


BTW, I noticed that you didn't answer my question on capital punishment on post #216, and I did actually believe that you wouldn't because it may well put you in a bind. No surprise here.:D
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
As a Christian I believe in the dogma Vox Populi. Vox Dei.
If a nation, united, needs to set up a revolution, it is God's will.
This is my thought. And in such cases, when an entire nation is wildly angry with the governing elites, they will be sided by the army. The army is armed. The elites are unarmed. So the army will win.
I don't believe in it unless it clearly falls under defense per the "Just War Theory" that has been long taught going all the way back to Augustine and reinforced by Aquinas. What can be sticky, however, is specifically what defines "defense"?
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
I don't believe in it unless it clearly falls under defense per the "Just War Theory" that has been long taught going all the way back to Augustine and reinforced by Aquinas. What can be sticky, however, is specifically what defines "defense"?

The issue here is that the perpetrators feel like the victims.

Only God can restore justice...he will sever the perpetrators from the victims. The perpetrators will be with their own master, Satan, in the afterlife. The victims, with Jesus.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The issue here is that the perpetrators feel like the victims.

Only God can restore justice...he will sever the perpetrators from the victims. The perpetrators will be with their own master, Satan, in the afterlife. The victims, with Jesus.
Frankly, I have no reason to believe that God takes sides when it comes to wars.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
I meant the majority of the population.
Vox Populi Vox Dei refers to the overwhelming majority of a nation.
Not in any practical sense. As you pointed out earlier, it refers to the subset of the population that controls the army. That "overwhelming majority" is really just the overwhelming majority of violent force. .Vox Populi Vox Dei is the equivalent of Might makes Right, with a little marketing spin.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Not really. Secular Jews and those of other faiths together actually comprise a majority of those living in Israel.

But it is still classified as a Jewish nation. :)

You and I are, but clearly our country is not Christian legally, and one can argue also religiously.

Have a Most Blessed Lord's Day.

Thank you. I guess we can agree to disagree in as much as I still believe it is the "United" of individual an sovereign "States" - and each State specifically recognizes the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

BTW, I noticed that you didn't answer my question on capital punishment on post #216, and I did actually believe that you wouldn't because it may well put you in a bind. No surprise here.:D

LOL - I did, but not for reasons you may think. :) I thought it was irrelevant.

BUT - to answer your question:


A

VERY

DEFINITE..

....


....

....

Maybe. :D
 
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