Christianity must change or die

[Mister Emu]

If we look at the statistics just for the United States, we can see that more liberal forms of Christianity are growing faster, while conservative forms are slowly passing.

Where are you getting your data from? The 2011 Yearbook had the Episcopalians dropping almost 2 and half percent, the Evangelical Lutherans dropping almost 2, and the PC(USA) dropping over 2 and half. The UCC is almost down 3 percent, the largest of any major denomination. These are the four largest drops; all from liberal churches.

The four fastest growing churches among those of the 25 largest in the U.S. who reported membership numbers? SDA, Jehova's Witnesses, Mormons and Catholics.

I think the statistics, at least in the case of the U.S. not only refute the contention that the church needs to be more liberal, but turns it on its head. If Christianity is to survive, much less thrive, it will be as a religion counterposed to modern moral relativistic notions, not as one that acquiesces to the mob.

More so, that really is missing the point of what I was saying.

When you make a point I would agree with I tend to think you are tilting at the proverbial windmill. For instance, no Christian Church(that I have ever heard of) proposes or endorses the idea that the faithful are "good enough to be worthy of all of God's love".

But if I missed your point, and it was not that Churches need to become more liberal, such as accepting homosexuality, female ordination and other beliefs(as valid paths?), then I did miss it. That is what I got out of your piece.

 

[Mister Emu]

Haven't at least one Pope put the issue of women in the clergy on the table? I believe the last Pope did.

No, Blessed John Paul II did not put the issue of female ordination on the table... He definitively closed it with Ordinatio Sacerdotalis: "I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful"

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

No, and the Bishop either didn't know, or turned a filthy blind eye to it.









http://www.ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/VATBAN.TXT

The fact is that it has been decided on. And if you try and teach against it, then you are not Catholic. One can not be Catholic and teach against the Magisterium.

Don't get me wrong. I do not want to sound like "holier then thou", though I am sure I sound like that alot to some folk, but womens ordination and Homosexual marriage goes against Catholicism. And its simple. You either accept the teachings with humility, or you leave like the rest have done in the past. Some of these liberals seem as if they would have been an Apostle, they would have tried to argue with Christ himself.

In it's pronouncement the Catholic Church has split itself into two parts.
there is no indication that those supporting women priests has recanted at all.
Over time those of liberal and conservative views will redistribute their support to the two wings of the Church.

This is not a question of good or bad... just fact.
those on each side are equal in faith.

History tends to the view that change is inevitable and necessary for continued growth.

 

[Villager]

No, Blessed John Paul II did not put the issue of female ordination on the table... He definitively closed it with Ordinatio Sacerdotalis: "I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful"

Lack of authority never stopped the Vatican before, surely. Surely Herr Ratzinger has not forgotten that he is 'Christ's Vicar on earth', and can do as he pleases.

But the point here is that, in democracies, and for whatever reason, the RCC, the CoE and the Plymouth Brethren, old Uncle Tom Cobley and all can make whatever regulations they think fit, even if they are for sordid political reasons- as they often are, imv. Regulations for their own members, not for anyone else. It is for everyone else to ignore what Uncle Tom Cobley says, and get on with their lives.

 

[JacobEzra.]

In it's pronouncement the Catholic Church has split itself into two parts.
there is no indication that those supporting women priests has recanted at all.
Over time those of liberal and conservative views will redistribute their support to the two wings of the Church.

This is not a question of good or bad... just fact.
those on each side are equal in faith.

History tends to the view that change is inevitable and necessary for continued growth.

No there is only one side. There is no liberal Church, for the liberals who believe gay marriage, womens ordination and abortion have put themselves outside of the church.

Like I said, you can not be a Catholic and go against the magestirum at the same time. Impossible.

Only thing History shows is the same thing happening. A group of prideful heretics rise against the hierarchy and become schismatic groups. Only difference with modern times, is the heretics are to lazy to leave.

 

[JacobEzra.]

Haven't at least one Pope put the issue of women in the clergy on the table? I believe the last Pope did.

It's not teaching against it, it is questioning it. Catholicism does get challenged by Catholics, and it does change because of these challenges.

Yeah, read the link. Bl. John Paul II said something about it.....that is that womens ordination will never be allowed.

 

[Villager]

No there is only one side. There is no liberal Church, for the liberals who believe gay marriage, womens ordination and abortion have put themselves outside of the church.

So are the names of baptised Catholics whose beliefs or practices oppose official policy deleted from the official list of Catholics? Maybe there aren't as many Catholics as advertised. Including priests!

 

[Vasiel]

Yeah, read the link. Bl. John Paul II said something about it.....that is that womens ordination will never be allowed.

Never is a long time. Things change. I'm sure that humanity believed that slavery or women's rights (outside of the church) would "never" happen either. But eventually they did.

The Pope is only human. One day you may have a Pope that supports women's rights, and then Ordination will be allowed for women. In fact, one day you may end up with a female Pope... then you'll all be in trouble.

Don't use absolutist words like "never". Because if you say that, you end up looking silly when things do change. And nobody deserves to look silly.

 

[Vasiel]

End of slavery* sorry

 

[-Peacemaker-]

if you decide to ignore this entire post could you just answer me this one question?

in a world where 1/3 of its population is christian and in a country where practically 80% is christian, who hasn't already heard about jesus?

i would wager more people know who jesus is than they know who john boehner is...

Sure people have heard of Jesus. How many of those who rejected him really understand his message? He literally came to usher in the Kingdom of Heaven. The reign and rule of God can start in this life, we don't wait until the next to start enjoying Heaven's blessings. Most people that reject Jesus do so because they have false conceptions of him such as he came to ruin the party and put everyone under the rule of a tyrant. Usually people who reject Jesus don't believe it's God's will for them to be satisfied more than they could ever dream. They believe he's going to let them starve.

 

[waitasec]

Sure people have heard of Jesus. How many of those who rejected him really understand his message?

but in the great commission
he also said, shake the dust off of your feet

He literally came to usher in the Kingdom of Heaven. The reign and rule of God can start in this life, we don't wait until the next to start enjoying Heaven's blessings. Most people that reject Jesus do so because they have false conceptions of him such as he came to ruin the party and put everyone under the rule of a tyrant.

are you saying you do not trust god is capable to reveal himself to them?

Usually people who reject Jesus don't believe it's God's will for them to be satisfied more than they could ever dream. They believe he's going to let them starve.

have you considered that those who reject belief in god/jesus is because they just don't buy it?

so leave the unbelievers alone and stop shoving your beliefs on to other people...
live as jesus asked you to and trust god to work through you...
let god do all the talking.


they are unbelievers for a reason....
it isn't your responsibility to uncover who jesus really is, because there are a lot of conflicting revelations of god and along with that many conflicting interpretations of the bible....
so really who is going to know the true god

 

[fallingblood]

No, Blessed John Paul II did not put the issue of female ordination on the table... He definitively closed it with Ordinatio Sacerdotalis: "I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful"

Wrong Pope. My mistake. Pope John XXII was the one who was open to the idea. He is also the one that initiated some pretty big changes with Vatican II.

 

[krsnaraja]

Wrong Pope. My mistake. Pope John XXII was the one who was open to the idea. He is also the one that initiated some pretty big changes with Vatican II.

My two sons, Marco & Matthew, graduated high school at Pope John XXIII ( John Vianney ) Seminary. But they did not pursue the priesthood.

 

[fallingblood]

Where are you getting your data from? The 2011 Yearbook had the Episcopalians dropping almost 2 and half percent, the Evangelical Lutherans dropping almost 2, and the PC(USA) dropping over 2 and half. The UCC is almost down 3 percent, the largest of any denomination. These are the four largest drops; all from liberal churches.

The four fastest growing churches among those of the 25 largest in the U.S. who reported membership numbers? SDA, Jehova's Witnesses, Mormons and Catholics.

I think the statistics, at least in the case of the U.S. not only refute the contention that the church needs to be more liberal, but turns it on its head. If Christianity is to survive, much less thrive, it will be as a religion counterposed to modern moral relativistic notions, not as one that acquiesces to the mob.

More Americans tailoring religion to fit their needs This definitely says otherwise. Most interesting is the decline in people thinking that God is all knowing, all powerful, and that the Bible is infallible.

This shows that in general, Christianity is declining: Religious identification in the U.S. It also shows that Catholicism has declined.

When you make a point I would agree with I tend to think you are tilting at the proverbial windmill. For instance, no Christian Church(that I have ever heard of) proposes or endorses the idea that the faithful are "good enough to be worthy of all of God's love".

Did I say that?

But if I missed your point, and it was not that Churches need to become more liberal, such as accepting homosexuality, female ordination and other beliefs(as valid paths?), then I did miss it. That is what I got out of your piece.

That was my point, the Churches need to update (not necessarily become more liberal), and become less intolerant.

 

[fallingblood]

Yeah, read the link. Bl. John Paul II said something about it.....that is that womens ordination will never be allowed.

I was wrong with the Pope. It was a previous Pope.

 

[Mister Emu]

This definitely says otherwise

I disagree... in fact it is logical. The denominations that stress the community and the church have more people stay in the membership than those that are liberal and teach that it doesn't really matter.

It also shows that Catholicism has declined.

It has declined proportionally... and no surprise, the Church is going through one of its greater periods of turmoil, many hierarchs having been caught at the worst of offenses. Still it has a positive total growth, the Church is not losing members, it grows slower than the total population.

Unlike the liberal churches I mentioned that are actually losing numbers...

2011 Church Membership: Southern Baptists Decline; Jehovah Witnesses Increase, Christian News

This information comes directly from the churches.

Did I say that?

Fair enough, but you did say Christians need to stop believing it... The percent of the Christian population who believes they are so good is not very high, close to nil in my experience.

That was my point, the Churches need to update (not necessarily become more liberal), and become less intolerant.

Then I fail to see how I did not address your point. Conservative Churches are the ones fastest growing, "tolerant" churches the fastest shrinking.

 

[fallingblood]

I disagree... in fact it is logical. The denominations that stress the community and the church have more people stay in the membership than those that are liberal and teach that it doesn't really matter.

So, a rise in people not believing that God is all powerful or all knowing supports your case? And a rise in people not seeing the Bible as infallible supports your position? I don't think so.

More so, since when did liberal churches claim that community doesn't matter? They never did.

Finally, the article said in general, people are going to church less. Your statements simply are not supported by the article, and really are argued against.

It has declined proportionally... and no surprise, the Church is going through one of its greater periods of turmoil, many hierarchs having been caught at the worst of offenses. Still it has a positive total growth, the Church is not losing members, it grows slower than the total population.

Unlike the liberal churches I mentioned that are actually losing numbers...

2011 Church Membership: Southern Baptists Decline; Jehovah Witnesses Increase, Christian News

In the United States, the Catholic Church has declined in numbers. That is what is shown in the source I provided. Yes, it may be growing elsewhere, but I am not talking about that. I am talking about here, in the United States, where Catholicism is declining.

As for your source: "Ten of the 25 largest churches, however, did not provide updated membership figures for this year's edition." That seems a little important.

This information comes directly from the churches.

Some of which didn't respond. Some that have controversial ways of determining membership, and at least one that a new way of counting membership showed that they had a 50% decline. There are problems with that information, and the link you provide even state so.

Fair enough, but you did say Christians need to stop believing it... The percent of the Christian population who believes they are so good is not very high, close to nil in my experience.

I said that they needed to stop believing that their way was the only way.

Then I fail to see how I did not address your point. Conservative Churches are the ones fastest growing, "tolerant" churches the fastest shrinking.

That isn't true. Churches in general are decreasing. When Christians are asked, we do see that a growing number label themselves as liberal.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

but in the great commission
he also said, shake the dust off of your feet


are you saying you do not trust god is capable to reveal himself to them?



have you considered that those who reject belief in god/jesus is because they just don't buy it?

so leave the unbelievers alone and stop shoving your beliefs on to other people...
live as jesus asked you to and trust god to work through you...
let god do all the talking.


they are unbelievers for a reason....
it isn't your responsibility to uncover who jesus really is, because there are a lot of conflicting revelations of god and along with that many conflicting interpretations of the bible....
so really who is going to know the true god

Ministry and Evangelism isn't mind reading. Are there some who understand exactly who God/Jesus is and reject him anyways? Yes, among them is Satan who experienced the fullness of God yet wanted to do his own thing instead. My guess is that such people are in the minority. IMO most people reject Jesus/God because they believe a lie about him. Many of them embrace that lie out of ignorance. That's the biggest reason for asking questions and engaging in conversation about this type of stuff, because some people have never heard the TRUTH about Jesus even though they've think they know all about him.

 

[waitasec]

Ministry and Evangelism isn't mind reading.

what did you mean when saying the following...

Most people that reject Jesus do so because they have false conceptions of him such as he came to ruin the party and put everyone under the rule of a tyrant. Usually people who reject Jesus don't believe it's God's will for them to be satisfied more than they could ever dream. They believe he's going to let them starve.

and

IMO most people reject Jesus/God because they believe a lie about him. Many of them embrace that lie out of ignorance.

these are baseless judgments you made...

Are there some who understand exactly who God/Jesus is and reject him anyways? Yes,

and what does that have to do with your lack of faith that god will reveal himself to them?
you don't trust god, it seems.

That's the biggest reason for asking questions and engaging in conversation about this type of stuff, because some people have never heard the TRUTH about Jesus even though they've think they know all about him.

conversations about this stuff is all good
however voting against someone's inalienable rights or subjecting people to your religious views isn't...

that is and has been what i am trying to convey...

 

[-Peacemaker-]

what did you mean when saying the following...

and

these are baseless judgments you made...


and what does that have to do with your lack of faith that god will reveal himself to them?
you don't trust god, it seems.


conversations about this stuff is all good
however voting against someone's inalienable rights or subjecting people to your religious views isn't...

that is and has been what i am trying to convey...

Part of how God reveals himself and his character is through his Word which he's given his followers to preach. The baseless judgements you accuse me of making are based on my years of doing evangelism. Believe me when I say I've done alot of it. Perhaps I could've prefaced that statement about people who reject Jesus with "In my experience"