Christianity must change or die

[waitasec]

Part of how God reveals himself and his character is through his Word which he's given his followers to preach.

the bible is one of the most printed books....
so again, who hasn't heard of jesus?

The baseless judgements you accuse me of making are based on my years of doing actual evangelism.

then you should listen more...

and i will repeat what i said:

conversations about this stuff is all good
however voting against someone's inalienable rights or subjecting people to your religious views isn't...

 

[angellous_evangellous]

You told me you were an Evangelical in a previous thread. We were talking about how to do ministry and I kept quoting Paul and John the Baptist among other people and you kept saying how we're not Paul or John the Baptist and that they're not valid examples for Christians to follow when it comes to some issues. The issues in question were things like biblical rebuke as well as church discipline. You felt that they had some authority to be able to perform these church functions things that Christians today don't have.

here's what you said about Evangelicalism

I posted this:" And finally we see the source of our disagreement. I'm an Evangelical. I've been taught to read Scripture as if God is speaking to his whole church throughout the ages through both the OT and NT."

You replied in post 28 by quoting and highlighting the words "I'm an Evangelical" with this: "I am too."

It was in this thread about how to do ministry
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...1-christians-how-should-we-do-ministry-3.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by Junglej25
And finally we see the source of our disagreement. I'm an Evangelical. I've been taught to read Scripture as if God is speaking to his whole church throughout the ages through both the OT and NT.

I am too.

Smiley for sarcasm, my friend.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Smiley for sarcasm, my friend.

What a bizarre time to pull out the sarcasm. You know they actually have a sarcasm emoticon among the choices.

 

[JacobEzra.]

I was wrong with the Pope. It was a previous Pope.

As in a Pope before Bl. John Paul II? Who would that be then? I know you can not mean Pope Benedict XVI!

 

[angellous_evangellous]

What a bizarre time to pull out the sarcasm. You know they actually have a sarcasm emoticon among the choices.

Yes, because only one possible expression can be used to indicate sarcasm.

You realize that to catch sarcasm, you need to be paying attention. I understand that sarcasm is more difficult to catch, but seriously, you'd really have to have your head stuck in your *** to mistake me for an Evangelical. Yes, even on that thread.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Yes, because only one possible expression can be used to indicate sarcasm.

You realize that to catch sarcasm, you need to be paying attention. I understand that sarcasm is more difficult to catch, but seriously, you'd really have to have your head stuck in your *** to mistake me for an Evangelical. Yes, even on that thread.

Believe me I'm not surprised by this revelation. The last thing you've sounded like is an Evangelical. Your usage of sarcasm was so bizarre that I don't think many people could've picked up on it unless perhaps they knew you inside and out. After that "revelation" I simply assumed you were from a radical fringe movement inside Evangelicalism.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Believe me I'm not surprised by this revelation. The last thing you've sounded like is an Evangelical. Your usage of sarcasm was so bizarre that I don't think many people could've picked up on it unless perhaps they knew you inside and out. After that "revelation" I simply assumed you were from a radical fringe movement inside Evangelicalism.

Ah, that's insulting enough. I might pass for some weird fringe Evangelical.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Ah, that's insulting enough. I might pass for some weird fringe Evangelical.

I would find it fascinating to learn your take on Evangelicalism including any criticisms you have of it. Not because I feel defensive but because one of my many weaknesses is a lack of knowledge about different branches of Protestantism. I find you can learn alot about yourself from hearing an outside POV as self reflection seems to allow alot to slip past our radars. Perhaps I should start a new thread in a same faith forum.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I would find it fascinating to learn your take on Evangelicalism including any criticisms you have of it. Not because I feel defensive but because one of my many weaknesses is a lack of knowledge about different branches of Protestantism. I find you can learn alot about yourself from hearing an outside POV as self reflection seems to allow alot to slip past our radars. Perhaps I should start a new thread in a same faith forum.

Go for it.

It would be helpful if in the OP you defined "Evangelicalism" or pointed to some authority for a definition so we're talking about the same thing.

 

[fallingblood]

As in a Pope before Bl. John Paul II? Who would that be then? I know you can not mean Pope Benedict XVI!

I was talking about Pope John XXIII.

In addition to that though, he also partially saw a major reformation on the Catholic Church (Vatican II).

Paul also thought women had a right to be in leadership roles within the church.

Basically, the Catholic Church has also changed quite a bit and really, it has become more liberal in the last century. It just needs to continue that way, and hopefully with leaps and bounds.

On a side note, four women were recently ordained. They will probably be excommunicated, along with the Bishop, as the current Pope is quite conservative and has even excommunicated another Bishop for just talking about the idea, but we do see some major steps forward.

 

[Mister Emu]

Wrong Pope. My mistake. Pope John XXII

I think you missed an "I", John XXIII was the Pope that instigated Vatican II. Do you have any documentation that he supported or even more passively didn't oppose female ordination? I did a cursory search and couldn't come up with anything.

 

[Mister Emu]

So, a rise in people not believing that God is all powerful or all knowing supports your case? ... I don't think so.

Yes. The liberal churches are becoming less true to Christianity and are losing members to both apathy and paths that more hold firm to the truth.

More so, since when did liberal churches claim that community doesn't matter? They never did.

I will acknowledge some amount of ignorance, but what I have gathered from liberal Christians is that it doesn't really matter: what you believe, who you commune with, and whether you go to church or not. These three teachings would be detrimental to church attendance and membership.

Finally, the article said in general, people are going to church less. Your statements simply are not supported by the article, and really are argued against.

There is no extrapolation of "people in general are going to church less" to "people are going to x church less". The particular church statistics show that there is a disproportionate loss among liberal membership as compared to conservative.

Though some conservative churches are losing members, others are growing, especially Mormons, SDA, and JW.

In the United States, the Catholic Church has declined in numbers. That is what is shown in the source I provided

It didn't from 2008-2009, it grew .57%

Secondly, your link to the ARIS polls says that Catholicism has shrunken in proportion to the total American population from 1990 - 2008(26.2% to 25.1%), but has grown in proportion from 2001 to 2008(24.5% - 25.1%)

Yes, it may be growing elsewhere, but I am not talking about that.

My link was for Canada and the U.S.

There are problems with that information, and the link you provide even state so.

Indeed, some churches didn't provide membership information... that doesn't mean we can't talk about the churches that did respond.

I said that they needed to stop believing that their way was the only way.

You said, and I quote: "What is needed is for Christians to stop being so arrogant, so self-centered, that they believe only they are good enough to be worthy of all of God's love."
No, we don't need to stop being so arrogant that we believe we are good enough to be worthy of God's love, because we aren't.

On a side note, four women were recently ordained. They will probably be excommunicated, along with the Bishop, as the current Pope is quite conservative and has even excommunicated another Bishop for just talking about the idea, but we do see some major steps forward.

No, they weren't. They went through a ceremony playing at ordination, there is a difference.

Also, they won't "probably" be excommunicated. They already are. Pretending to ordain a woman incurs an automatic excommunication.

 

[JacobEzra.]

I was talking about Pope John XXIII.

AS Mister Emu asked, what proof of this do you have?

Paul also thought women had a right to be in leadership roles within the church.

Paul as in St. Paul from the bible? Or Bl. John Paul II? I have already shown you where Bl. John Paul II had made it clear womens ordination was out of the question.

On a side note, four women were recently ordained. They will probably be excommunicated, along with the Bishop, as the current Pope is quite conservative and has even excommunicated another Bishop for just talking about the idea, but we do see some major steps forward.

Well, considering Bl. John Paul II said women couldn't be ordained, and womens ordination has been trashed as heretical and non-Catholic, then yes, of course the Bishop should and will get a formal excommunication. He technically has already excommunicated himself, now he will be formally, which is good.

 

[Mister Emu]

He technically has already excommunicated himself, now he will be formally, which is good.

It wasn't a he, it was a woman. There wasn't even a bishop present this time(praise be to God).

 

[JacobEzra.]

It wasn't a he, it was a woman. There wasn't even a bishop present this time(praise be to God).

Ah, Fallinblood is misleading because he added a bit about the bishop possibly being excommunicated. Is there a link around about this story?

And a women ordaining other women? I don't see how fallinblood can even try and say it was Catholic. No lay, even faithful, have the power to ordain.

 

[Vasiel]

Ah, Fallinblood is misleading because he added a bit about the bishop possibly being excommunicated. Is there a link around about this story?

And a women ordaining other women? I don't see how fallinblood can even try and say it was Catholic. No lay, even faithful, have the power to ordain.

It's one of the few reasons I do actually dislike the Catholic system. Because you rely on the Pope for every decision, even though he is human and therefore imperfect and the fact that you rely on fallible humans to dictate what they "believe" God wants.

A rather biased/flawed system in my opinion

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Ah, Fallinblood is misleading because he added a bit about the bishop possibly being excommunicated. Is there a link around about this story?

And a women ordaining other women? I don't see how fallinblood can even try and say it was Catholic. No lay, even faithful, have the power to ordain.

If you read the Didiche you will see that the early church congregations were empowered to elect their own priests.

Soon the Anglican churches will be ordaining women Bishops. It has gone through all the necessary stages.

The Roman Church is very ambivalent about how it sees the Anglican Priesthood. One moment the Pope attends services with the Archbishop of Canterbury With women priests officiating, and the next it is denying that Anglican priest have authority.

Church statistics are notoriously unreliable.
Churches do know how many are baptised, married and have funerals performed. ( for some these are the only services they attend) some know how many communicants receive the sacrament, service by service, but they do not know who they were, if they were members, or how often they attend.
No church knows their actual active membership, or how many attending services are actual members.

 

[Mister Emu]

Is there a link around about this story?

Catholic | Women Catholic priests: Ordination ceremony held in Maryland - Baltimore Sun

 

[fallingblood]

I think you missed an "I", John XXIII was the Pope that instigated Vatican II. Do you have any documentation that he supported or even more passively didn't oppose female ordination? I did a cursory search and couldn't come up with anything.

I was presented this in a class I took, so I will have to dig through my notes and find it.

 

[JacobEzra.]

It's one of the few reasons I do actually dislike the Catholic system. Because you rely on the Pope for every decision, even though he is human and therefore imperfect and the fact that you rely on fallible humans to dictate what they "believe" God wants.

A rather biased/flawed system in my opinion

No, you sir just dont know what your talking about try again