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Christianity must change or die

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
I think a lot of it is just tradition, and not ex-cathedra. When it comes right down to it, the only thing Christians have to do is follow the words of Jesus, and Peter. And Paul usurped Peter, so Peter really has nothing important to say in Christianity. Christianity is not Christianity, it is Paulism. How that actually came to be is a mystery to me, except it must have come from the Council of Nicaea and subsequent councils, which I think were only the musings of men. Men who could not agree on very much. Example, St. Nicholas losing his temper at a council and punching a fellow bishop's lights out.
 

JacobEzra.

Dr. Greenthumb
I think a lot of it is just tradition, and not ex-cathedra. When it comes right down to it, the only thing Christians have to do is follow the words of Jesus, and Peter. And Paul usurped Peter, so Peter really has nothing important to say in Christianity. Christianity is not Christianity, it is Paulism. How that actually came to be is a mystery to me, except it must have come from the Council of Nicaea and subsequent councils, which I think were only the musings of men. Men who could not agree on very much. Example, St. Nicholas losing his temper at a council and punching a fellow bishop's lights out.

Thats absurd
 

Vasiel

The Seeker
I think a lot of it is just tradition, and not ex-cathedra. When it comes right down to it, the only thing Christians have to do is follow the words of Jesus, and Peter. And Paul usurped Peter, so Peter really has nothing important to say in Christianity. Christianity is not Christianity, it is Paulism. How that actually came to be is a mystery to me, except it must have come from the Council of Nicaea and subsequent councils, which I think were only the musings of men. Men who could not agree on very much. Example, St. Nicholas losing his temper at a council and punching a fellow bishop's lights out.

I do agree with you (sadly). I think it became Paulism the moment that men realised his more "legalistic" attitude was easier to systematise and easier to use as a guideline. Sure they may have had good intentions initially. But the problem with systems is that humanity always finds a way to tangle them up and make a mess of things.

Usually the mess is made centuries after the original "blueprint" was put into action. Usually by men who are far more inclined to try and push their individual agendas on others. See they may try and do that with Christ's teachings, but it's so much more difficult then using Paul's "do this" and "do that" mentality.
 

Shermana

Heretic
It's great to see others who understand that modern Christianity is more "Paulism" than its original Messianic Jewish message (a Jewish sect that believed that Yashua was the prophecied Moshiach). Do they even know what "Christ" means? Do they know what the Messianic Prophecies are? Do they understand the purpose of the Guilt offering, or what it means in Jeremiah about having the "Law written on their hearts"? Perhaps more Jews will realize that Yashua truly was the Christ as the gentile heresies get exposed for what they are in the age of the internetz. Truly astounding is that many of the heresies that abound were specifically warned about in the scriptures, particularly those who claim to know Christ but refuse to obey the commandments.

"Christianity" away from its Messianic Jewish origins is nothing but a spiritual death trap for the soul, the "Lawless" who claim to know Christ are "liars" as 1 John call them, but few of them care about 1 John. Or James. Or Jude. Or Jesus. It's amazing how many think you don't even have to obey Jesus' teachings!
 

JacobEzra.

Dr. Greenthumb
It's great to see others who understand that modern Christianity is more "Paulism" than its original Messianic Jewish message (a Jewish sect that believed that Yashua was the prophecied Moshiach). Do they even know what "Christ" means? Do they know what the Messianic Prophecies are? Do they understand the purpose of the Guilt offering, or what it means in Jeremiah about having the "Law written on their hearts"? Perhaps more Jews will realize that Yashua truly was the Christ as the gentile heresies get exposed for what they are in the age of the internetz. Truly astounding is that many of the heresies that abound were specifically warned about in the scriptures, particularly those who claim to know Christ but refuse to obey the commandments.

"Christianity" away from its Messianic Jewish origins is nothing but a spiritual death trap for the soul, the "Lawless" who claim to know Christ are "liars" as 1 John call them, but few of them care about 1 John. Or James. Or Jude. Or Jesus. It's amazing how many think you don't even have to obey Jesus' teachings!

You are just as clueless as thous you accuse to be clueless
 

Shermana

Heretic
Calling me clueless is not exactly a replacement for a worthy rebuttal.

The issue of Paul preaching a radically different religion than Yashua and James and Jude is hardly new. The Ebionites certainly didn't consider Paul an apostle, and Yashua warned that even the Elect would be deceived by false prophets and teachers.
 

-Peacemaker-

.45 Cal
no but he said nero was appointed by god.

Leviticus 19:15 "'Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly."

Proverbs 31:9 "Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy."

We're not supposed to stand by idly while whoever in charge advocates evil
 

Shermana

Heretic
Leviticus 19:15 "'Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly."

Proverbs 31:9 "Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy."

We're not supposed to stand by idly while whoever in charge advocates evil

So that would go right against what Paul actually said, and if you're saying that Paul meant to imply only Governors that are righteous and doing G-ds will you are

A) Reading something into Paul's text that's simply not there

B) out of luck finding a single government in history that fits this criteria
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
So that would go right against what Paul actually said, and if you're saying that Paul meant to imply only Governors that are righteous and doing G-ds will you are

A) Reading something into Paul's text that's simply not there

B) out of luck finding a single government in history that fits this criteria

What criteria? (B)
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
So that would go right against what Paul actually said, and if you're saying that Paul meant to imply only Governors that are righteous and doing G-ds will you are

A) Reading something into Paul's text that's simply not there

B) out of luck finding a single government in history that fits this criteria

If you're talking about this:

Leviticus 19:15 "'Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly."

Proverbs 31:9 "Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy."

I'm afraid that you don't know anything about the history of government. Secular government is a very, very new idea, and you can just about put your hand over your eyes and pick a government from history and find something like this in their law.

I chose, at random, the Code of Hammurabi:

I have in Babylon the city where Anu and Bel raise high their head, in E-Sagil, the Temple, whose foundations stand firm as heaven and earth, in order to bespeak justice in the land, to set- tle all disputes, and heal all injuries, set up these my precious words, written upon my memorial stone, before the image of me, as king of righteousness.
 

Shermana

Heretic
I'm at a loss as to how that reply actually is relative to what I said in relation to what Paul said about always obeying the government especially in my previous post about things like Jews should have handed themselves to the Nazis in such logic, what does that have to do with Secular governments being recent? Perhaps you can weigh in on how you interpret what Paul said about always obeying the government and how they are G-d's tools of preserving Justice.
 
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Vasiel

The Seeker
It's great to see others who understand that modern Christianity is more "Paulism" than its original Messianic Jewish message (a Jewish sect that believed that Yashua was the prophecied Moshiach). Do they even know what "Christ" means? Do they know what the Messianic Prophecies are? Do they understand the purpose of the Guilt offering, or what it means in Jeremiah about having the "Law written on their hearts"? Perhaps more Jews will realize that Yashua truly was the Christ as the gentile heresies get exposed for what they are in the age of the internetz. Truly astounding is that many of the heresies that abound were specifically warned about in the scriptures, particularly those who claim to know Christ but refuse to obey the commandments.

"Christianity" away from its Messianic Jewish origins is nothing but a spiritual death trap for the soul, the "Lawless" who claim to know Christ are "liars" as 1 John call them, but few of them care about 1 John. Or James. Or Jude. Or Jesus. It's amazing how many think you don't even have to obey Jesus' teachings!

What I find most astounding (not to gloat or anything certainly) is that it's a lot of the non-believers that are picking up on the "Paulist" doctrine in the churches. Many non-believers still have a lot of respect for Jesus, but they have little to no respect for Paul.

Therefore, wouldn't it make more sense for Christians to actually be... well Christian? Instead of continually pushing the doctrine of Paul on their believers, and on the non-believers who clearly do not agree with, and do not like... Paul?

I'm just throwing food out for thought. I know it's off topic.. but yeah.
 

Villager

Active Member
What I find most astounding (not to gloat or anything certainly) is that it's a lot of the non-believers that are picking up on the "Paulist" doctrine in the churches. Many non-believers still have a lot of respect for Jesus, but they have little to no respect for Paul.

Therefore, wouldn't it make more sense for Christians to actually be... well Christian? Instead of continually pushing the doctrine of Paul on their believers, and on the non-believers who clearly do not agree with, and do not like... Paul?
It's not really off topic, because it relates to the 'change' that many feel is necessary.

In order to understand the apparent difference between Jesus and Paul, it is necessary to realise that they addressed very different constituencies. Jesus was born into the unique tradition that had been started with Abraham- by Jesus- in order to create the context for his mission and ministry. That spiritual and moral context was the characteristic of a culture that had been intended to inform other cultures (including Babylonia, Egypt, Greece and Rome) of the nature of deity, and of the nature of mankind; and also that a Messiah was promised for mankind.

His identity was an integral part of that mission, and the culture he created was the context for his ministry. He made no attempt to reach beyond it, leaving it to his followers to do that. The most prominent of these was Paul of Tarsus, doubly qualified as a 'professional' of the Messianic culture, and intimately familiar with the contemporary, Graeco-Roman world- as well as holding Roman citizenship. This 'pagan' world had very different moral standards, that in some cases were notorious even within itself. By contrast, those of the Messianic one, one might say, hopefully without giving offence, had produced those who had been 'house-trained'; so part of Paul's task was to ensure that those outside the Messianic culture were made fully aware of what was required of them morally. Paul stayed very close to the Messianic 'hymn sheet' in this, citing or quoting it very frequently to justify his standards as being not his own, and only very rarely stipulating anything that was not directly attributable to the Messianic culture.

So Paul differed in no way whatever from Jesus, who also cited and quoted the same hymn sheet (the OT/Tanakh), though he had no need to remind his own highly legalistic culture on many moral issues. Paul, otoh, was explicit, listing all the evils he could think of, because addressing a 'pagan' culture as ours is; so he is frequently seen as enjoining a stricter morality than that of Jesus. But this is a myth, and one that is, one suspects, deliberately cultured to try to persuade Christians into changing their views on moral issues.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Leviticus 19:15 "'Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly."

Proverbs 31:9 "Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy."

We're not supposed to stand by idly while whoever in charge advocates evil
yet, "... there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God."
 
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Walkntune

Well-Known Member
What I find most astounding (not to gloat or anything certainly) is that it's a lot of the non-believers that are picking up on the "Paulist" doctrine in the churches. Many non-believers still have a lot of respect for Jesus, but they have little to no respect for Paul.

Therefore, wouldn't it make more sense for Christians to actually be... well Christian? Instead of continually pushing the doctrine of Paul on their believers, and on the non-believers who clearly do not agree with, and do not like... Paul?

I'm just throwing food out for thought. I know it's off topic.. but yeah.
Being a Christian is not a matter of following the teachings as they are written in a book and thinking one can make changes from what Paul or Jesus says.That makes a religion but Christianity is not a religion.A true Christian has the Holy Spirit dwelling inside of them and the Spirit convicts the heart of what is truth.The laws are written in the heart of man and cannot be changed.
 

Walkntune

Well-Known Member
So Paul differed in no way whatever from Jesus, who also cited and quoted the same hymn sheet (the OT/Tanakh), though he had no need to remind his own highly legalistic culture on many moral issues. Paul, otoh, was explicit, listing all the evils he could think of, because addressing a 'pagan' culture as ours is; so he is frequently seen as enjoining a stricter morality than that of Jesus. But this is a myth, and one that is, one suspects, deliberately cultured to try to persuade Christians into changing their views on moral issues.
Eaxtly!
 

Heathen Hammer

Nope, you're still wrong
That makes a religion but Christianity is not a religion.A true Christian has the Holy Spirit dwelling inside of them and the Spirit convicts the heart of what is truth.The laws are written in the heart of man and cannot be changed.
Bull. It's a religion.
 
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