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Christianity must change or die

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
Yes. The liberal churches are becoming less true to Christianity and are losing members to both apathy and paths that more hold firm to the truth.
That's not true. The churches that I have gone to, which are liberal, are growing noticeably. Christianity is evolving, and many liberal churches see that.
I will acknowledge some amount of ignorance, but what I have gathered from liberal Christians is that it doesn't really matter: what you believe, who you commune with, and whether you go to church or not. These three teachings would be detrimental to church attendance and membership.
What you believe does matter. At least for most liberal churches. I've gotten into a number of debates with church officials debating about what was accepted beliefs.

Who you commune with may not be as important. But I don't see what that is important.

As for going to church, most liberal churches do suggest and try to push it.
There is no extrapolation of "people in general are going to church less" to "people are going to x church less". The particular church statistics show that there is a disproportionate loss among liberal membership as compared to conservative.

Though some conservative churches are losing members, others are growing, especially Mormons, SDA, and JW.
If we look at church attendance, we will see something quite different. There is a rise in small rural churches closing as they no longer have the numbers to support them.

Church attendance is more important here than whether church membership is growing. The two are quite different, and membership generally is much more than attendance. Especially when one can be a member of a conservative church, but attend a liberal church, or hold liberal ideas.

The article I provided did not specify from what churches though that people hold those beliefs. They gave examples of both liberal and conservative members.
It didn't from 2008-2009, it grew .57%

Secondly, your link to the ARIS polls says that Catholicism has shrunken in proportion to the total American population from 1990 - 2008(26.2% to 25.1%), but has grown in proportion from 2001 to 2008(24.5% - 25.1%)
No, the poll said that it declined from 1990-2008. So in total, there was a decline. And if we look at participation in the sacraments, they are all down.

And I think looking at the participation in the sacraments is probably a bigger indicator of Catholic membership. Also, most polls also show that Catholics are becoming more liberal, at least in the United States. A rising number find contraceptives to be okay, abortion to be okay in certain circumstances. We see a number arguing for women priesthood, and that number is increasing.
Indeed, some churches didn't provide membership information... that doesn't mean we can't talk about the churches that did respond.
But it does mean that we have to be careful about those numbers.
You said, and I quote: "What is needed is for Christians to stop being so arrogant, so self-centered, that they believe only they are good enough to be worthy of all of God's love."
No, we don't need to stop being so arrogant that we believe we are good enough to be worthy of God's love, because we aren't.
That has to be taken in context of everything else that I said. My main point, concerning that, was regarding the idea that "my way is the only way." That suggests that only those following the one true way are truly loved by God, as he is going to send all else to hell.
No, they weren't. They went through a ceremony playing at ordination, there is a difference.
It may not have been an official ordination, but it was the same for them.
Also, they won't "probably" be excommunicated. They already are. Pretending to ordain a woman incurs an automatic excommunication.
That doesn't make them less Catholic though. Sure, they are not recognized by the official leadership, but they still recognize themselves as Catholic. Maybe a splinter cell, but they still identify as such.

And really, I don't see why such a fight against changing. The Catholic Church, in just the last century, has undergone some major changes. And even recently, they have made some significant steps forward (as well as backwards). Such as allowing condoms to stop the spread of HIV.
 

JacobEzra.

Dr. Greenthumb
If you read the Didiche you will see that the early church congregations were empowered to elect their own priests.

Soon the Anglican churches will be ordaining women Bishops. It has gone through all the necessary stages.

The Roman Church is very ambivalent about how it sees the Anglican Priesthood. One moment the Pope attends services with the Archbishop of Canterbury With women priests officiating, and the next it is denying that Anglican priest have authority.
.
And? Attending a service does not mean complete acceptance.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
romans 13:1
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

so then obama has been ordained by god to eradicate the discrimination against homosexuals...

hop on board and side with whom god has ordained to govern you, then maybe just maybe you can save your church from dying ...
 

Vasiel

The Seeker
romans 13:1
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

so then obama has been ordained by god to eradicate the discrimination against homosexuals...

hop on board and side with whom god has ordained to govern you, then maybe just maybe you can save your church from dying ...

Just because I've been watching too much of the Last Samurai and one of the lines suits what you just wrote:

"I come to the place of my ancestors and I realise, that like these blossoms... we are all dying"
- Katsumoto

In short, the old homophobia will eventually die out... and the old sexist forms of church leadership will also die out. Nothing lasts forever (no matter how much we may want it too).

The thing that amuses me is that just because a group is under the banner of religion, they can get away with such a blatant disrespect for the equality of their members.

But then whose the bigger fool? The church for not giving the equality? Or the members for staying part of a clearly ancient and biased system?

Anyway, that's my two cents. Oh, and in case you didn't get why I put the quote there... it represents a very simple fact about human nature and society.

"Nothing Lasts Forever"

Peace!
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Just because I've been watching too much of the Last Samurai and one of the lines suits what you just wrote:

"I come to the place of my ancestors and I realise, that like these blossoms... we are all dying"
- Katsumoto

In short, the old homophobia will eventually die out... and the old sexist forms of church leadership will also die out. Nothing lasts forever (no matter how much we may want it too).

The thing that amuses me is that just because a group is under the banner of religion, they can get away with such a blatant disrespect for the equality of their members.

But then whose the bigger fool? The church for not giving the equality? Or the members for staying part of a clearly ancient and biased system?

Anyway, that's my two cents. Oh, and in case you didn't get why I put the quote there... it represents a very simple fact about human nature and society.

"Nothing Lasts Forever"

Peace!

i agree.
however you will be met with..."god's eternal word"

i just wanted to use their source as a mirror...
cheers.
 

-Peacemaker-

.45 Cal
romans 13:1
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

so then obama has been ordained by god to eradicate the discrimination against homosexuals...

hop on board and side with whom god has ordained to govern you, then maybe just maybe you can save your church from dying ...

You can't be serious. Are you actually going to use the argument that God has chosen the specific people who hold political offices all around the world. Surely you see the holes in that, Hitler and Stalin come to mind. I won't argue that the institution of government is of divine origins.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
You can't be serious. Are you actually going to use the argument that God has chosen the specific people who hold political offices all around the world. Surely you see the holes in that, Hitler and Stalin come to mind. I won't argue that the institution of government is of divine origins.

so how else do you interpret this inspired word from god through paul?
 

Shermana

Heretic
That particular passage from Romans is one of many reasons I (and many other Messianic Jews) don't consider Paul's epistles canon. By this logic, we should have handed ourselves over to the Nazis, and gone State Atheist as per Stalin's order, or been Anti-Zionist as per the Soviet Council position. We should have supported the French government against Dreyfuss too. In fact, Christians who believe Paul's epistles are divinely inspired should be honest to their beliefs and admit that they must view State persecution of Jews as rightful if this logic is to be uniform.

And ALL Your taxes are going for good causes whether you agree or not.
 
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JacobEzra.

Dr. Greenthumb
That particular passage from Romans is one of many reasons I (and many other Messianic Jews) don't consider Paul's epistles canon. By this logic, we should have handed ourselves over to the Nazis, and gone State Atheist as per Stalin's order, or been Anti-Zionist as per the Soviet Council position. We should have supported the French government against Dreyfuss too. In fact, Christians who believe Paul's epistles are divinely inspired should be honest to their beliefs and admit that they must view State persecution of Jews as rightful if this logic is to be uniform.

And ALL Your taxes are going for good causes whether you agree or not.
To be fair, if you read the whole chapter, it would seem Paul is talking about a leader who is moral and a minister to God. Not to mention Jesus said "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."

Isaiah 45
[6] That they may know who are from the rising of the sun, and they who are from the west, that there is none besides me. I am the Lord, and there is none else: [7] I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.


God is in control of everything. Even evil and can stop it. But doesn't. With your attitude I am surprised you just don't plainly hate God.
 

JacobEzra.

Dr. Greenthumb
And not attending service, and not following the basic tenants of Catholicism, does not mean one is a Catholic, even though many such individuals are counted in Church membership.
Correct, it doesn't mean one is a Catholic. It means one is not a Catholic. The many individuals who call themselves Catholics are being fooled and need help.
 

Walkntune

Well-Known Member
A Modern Reformation of Christianity Articles « Belzian Educational Foundation

Christianity is a religion that has survived and flourished for nearly two thousand years. Through these years, it has changed, branched off, and evolved into what can be described as multiple Christianities. At the same time, much of Christianity has become stuck in the past, unwilling to change or improve. In the name of Christianity, atrocities are still committed, and intolerance justified. There are some forms of Christianity that has set out to rectify these wrongs; however, there are also those that refuse to make the changes that they need to. These forms of Christianity are now at a cross roads, in which they can choose to change for the better and continue into the 21st century, as respectable institutions, or they can slowly die out, leaving behind a legacy of intolerance, and disgust.

Before moving further though, it has to be realized that there is no single, defining form of Christianity. The religion, as would be expected, has changed many times throughout the course of its life, evolving into something better defined as multiple Christianities. Within this spectrum of Christianities, we see a vast variety of beliefs. We have on one side, those who see the Bible as infallible, the very word of God, and their form of Christianity as the only way. On the other side, we have those who see the Bible as an important historical or literary work, written by various different men for different reasons, and their form of Christianity only being one among many true ways.

This is important to realize as Christianity is extremely diverse. One form of Christianity does not define another form. What one group of Christians believe, is not necessarily what all Christians believe. By grouping all Christians together, one does an injustice to those Christians actively trying to make a difference, as well as isolate others who would have otherwise been willing to try to make matters better.

When I use the term Christianity in rest of this essay, I am referring to Christianity in general terms. I recognize that many Christians, and various forms of Christianities have already began changing for the better. I am not addressing those forms when I use the term Christianity. Instead, I am referring to the forms of Christianity that refuse to change, and insist of justifying intolerance, narrow mindedness, and unquestioning blind faith.

It should then be obvious as to why Christianity must change. The justification of intolerance is more than enough reason for a change to be made. It should be no surprise then that we see one of the major complaints about Christianity being that it is an intolerant religion. I see no better example than the consistent protests that are seen in European countries when the Pope visits. Without fail, we see charges of intolerance being leveled at the Church with each visit. Intolerance towards homosexuals, and the intolerance towards women (in the form of refusing to ordain women), are issues that are brought up repeatedly when the Pope goes to visit. This is clearly a sign that there is a major backlash against this intolerance that is being condoned and justified by a religion.

It is not just the intolerance towards groups of individuals that is the problem though. It is also the narrow minded thinking that many Christians, and in general the religious, are guilty of. The idea that “my way is the only right way” needs to be abandoned. The condemnation of an eternity in hell, for those who choose to believe in a way different than ones own, needs to be abandoned. Such a position is arrogant, and foolish. It shows the exact opposite of what Jesus said was one of the most important commandments; that is to love one's neighbor. One can not truly love their neighbor and at the same time condemn them to hell.

To have a god that condemns the vast majority of individuals to hell simply is not a loving god. It is a god full of hatred, and simply is pitiful. God does not have to be that way. One can truly believe in an all loving God, and still be true to their religion. One can believe in a God who is not so spiteful that it would send those who do not believe in it to hell for eternity (even though that God refuses to supply any evidence for it's existence, but relies on the follower to have faith). What it really comes down to though is the acceptance of others. It is becoming a little more humble, and acknowledging that they are not some extremely special individual that has been granted one of the few places in heaven. What is needed is for Christians to stop being so arrogant, so self-centered, that they believe only they are good enough to be worthy of all of God's love. Really, it means maturing.

It also means though that one should feel free to challenge their beliefs, and not just simply follow them blindly. When a religion is so easily used to justify atrocious acts, that religion needs to be questioned, and challenged. But even more so, the leaders, and member of that religion that allow their religion to be violated in such a disgusting manner, need to be challenged, and possibly removed from any form of power.

Christianity needs to be challenged. It needs to be questioned. It needs to change. For too long individuals have been allowed to hide behind a religion in order to justify their own intolerant beliefs. That is simply unacceptable, and should not be allowed any longer. And the people who must change this are other Christians. Christians can no longer allow others to sully the name of the faith they follow as well. They need to be the ones who instigate this change, that is long over due. It is no longer acceptable to simply stand aside and allow other Christians to continue to portray Christianity as a disgusting, and perverse belief system.
I guess if you are going to serve out of your own intellect you might as well create what you like right? After all you are only creating a religion.
I choose to walk by the laws that God puts in my heart.God never changes.
We are supposed to change into the image of Christ not the other way around.

Its hard to see black and white when so much appears to be grey.
With no faith in the absolute it's no wonder the standard will stray.

I don't believe the resistance that is growing from intollerances in Christianity and the secular world are threatening to the survival of Christianity,but I do believe we are marching on into the war of Armageddon!
 
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Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
That's not true. The churches that I have gone to, which are liberal, are growing noticeably. Christianity is evolving, and many liberal churches see that.
The Southern Baptist Church I occasionally attend with my family has also grown recently, but Southern Baptist membership as a whole is down 1%.

What you believe does matter. At least for most liberal churches.
As I acknowledged, some ignorance exists. But I've always heard the "as long as you love and do good, God will save you" from liberal Christians...

Who you commune with may not be as important. But I don't see what that is important.
I didn't mean who you are friends with... I meant liberals care less about whether you go to a Buddhist, Hindu, etc. worship when compared to conservatives.

As for going to church, most liberal churches do suggest and try to push it.
Suggestion is well and good, but many conservative churches require it/make an article of faith out of it.

Church attendance is more important here than whether church membership is growing.
Both are important, ideally you want both to improve.

When membership is in decline that is a bad sign for the church...

Especially when one can be a member of a conservative church, but attend a liberal church, or hold liberal ideas.
One can just as easily do the opposite.

No, the poll said that it declined from 1990-2008. So in total, there was a decline.
Yes, the poll said from 2001-2008 there was an increase. Both statements are true... and I even already noted that from 1990-2008 was a decrease.

And I think looking at the participation in the sacraments is probably a bigger indicator of Catholic membership.
Ehh... many Catholics who consider themselves so and would argue with you if you said they weren't, don't go to mass that often(holidays/special occasions)...

It is very hard for me to get to the nearest E.C. church to attend Divine Liturgy, and since the closest Latin parish moved I tend not to make it to many masses either. I'm still a Catholic, thank you very much.

Also, most polls also show that Catholics are becoming more liberal, at least in the United States. A rising number find contraceptives to be okay, abortion to be okay in certain circumstances. We see a number arguing for women priesthood, and that number is increasing.
The Catholic Church is becoming more polar, not more liberal. The shift is away from the middle as more Catholics are also becoming "ultra-conservative".

But it does mean that we have to be careful about those numbers.
We have to be careful with all numbers.

My main point, concerning that, was regarding the idea that "my way is the only way." That suggests that only those following the one true way are truly loved by God, as he is going to send all else to hell.
No, it doesn't. That is not a Christian suggestion/idea. The only place you will hear anything resembling the second sentence is the WBC.

It may not have been an official ordination, but it was the same for them.
You can have a non-official ordination, that is called illicit.

This was invalid, no ordination happened.

That doesn't make them less Catholic though. Sure, they are not recognized by the official leadership, but they still recognize themselves as Catholic. Maybe a splinter cell, but they still identify as such.
They are automatically kicked out of the Church... that is what excommunication means. Until/unless they repent they are not Catholic.

And really, I don't see why such a fight against changing. The Catholic Church, in just the last century, has undergone some major changes. And even recently, they have made some significant steps forward (as well as backwards). Such as allowing condoms to stop the spread of HIV.
No, the Church did not sanction condoms to stop HIV.
 
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waitasec

Veteran Member
You can't be serious. Are you actually going to use the argument that God has chosen the specific people who hold political offices all around the world. Surely you see the holes in that, Hitler and Stalin come to mind. I won't argue that the institution of government is of divine origins.
i would also like to add...
when paul wrote this letter, nero was in charge...
apparently god's word has many many holes to fill.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/biblical-debates/123111-romans-13-1-7-governing-authority.html
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
It's one of the few reasons I do actually dislike the Catholic system. Because you rely on the Pope for every decision, even though he is human and therefore imperfect and the fact that you rely on fallible humans to dictate what they "believe" God wants.

A rather biased/flawed system in my opinion

In defense of Catholics and Catholic doctrine :facepalm: the pope is infallible only when speaking ex-cathedra, "from the chair", referring to the chair of St. Peter.
 

Villager

Active Member
In defense of Catholics and Catholic doctrine :facepalm: the pope is infallible only when speaking ex-cathedra, "from the chair", referring to the chair of St. Peter.
In that case, Catholics do not have to go to confession or Mass, recognise a priest or bishop, or even recognise a pope! All they have to do is believe certain (exceedingly doubtful) things about Mary, because that lady is the only subject of the two infallible statements in the 1600 years of the history of the RCC. It would appear that the only thing that Catholics have to do is adore Mary.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
In that case, Catholics do not have to go to confession or Mass, recognise a priest or bishop, or even recognise a pope! All they have to do is believe certain (exceedingly doubtful) things about Mary, because that lady is the only subject of the two infallible statements in the 1600 years of the history of the RCC.
Church Councils are also equally authoritative.
 
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