Christianity offers wings not weight

[Heneni]

Sigh... I've had many religious experiences. I can assure you I believed. But doubts start to creep in and I began to question things. This wasn't an over night thing. It took years for me to have the guts to really question things. I didn't want to give up religion, despite what it did to me, since I was affraid of hell and I didn't want to lose that source of comfort. It's like looking at the floor and finding there's nothing holding you up, you think you're going to fall, but then you start to use your reason, "There has to be a floor or I'd be falling" and the floor appears.

How do I know this isn't another deception? I suppose I don't 100%. But if this is a deception and god allows such deceptions then how the hell are any of us meant to know the truth. This is why I simply don't care whether there's a god or not.

He either doesn't exist or doesn't care whether or not I believe in him... works for me.

I question things to death myself! LOL. I understand that completely. Im not trying to convert you or anything I understand that my treasure does not constitute value to you unless you had the same treasure.

You are a smart man, I know that you know that. Questioning isnt wrong. Im just thankfull that I have reached the point that to doubt some things would be kind of awkward. And im still learning. Maybe my understanding of God has grown somewhat to understand that questioning isnt wrong, but doubting the answer is. We are not expected to have blind faith, we are expected to have faith that is rooted in something concrete. And God is that for me. Someone stable, always the same, always willing to teach always willing to explain, always willing to forgive. Even for many christians it is a daunting process to learn how to trust in that which they cannot see. But we do this everyday. We trust the train driver we cant see, we trust the chef preparing our food, we trust MacDonalds burgers and yet we cannot see them doing their jobs, we just buy the food, we climb on the train and think nothing more of it.

There seems to be a stampede of christians out of christianity. And in the end, I am not responsible for that, but neither is God. We all have to find our own treasure.

As far as hell goes, earth is hell. The trick is to get out of it. LOL. There is a lake of fire coming that is true, but the torture in there wont be because god is an angry maniac, the torture is self-induced. An evil heart wants to do evil, and if the power to do evil is taken away, it will be frustrating to many. Even satan will be sent there, and obviously if the lake of fire is a place where evil can be executed, it wont be much torture for him will it? I mean evil is the name of his game. He would fit right in. Evil is dead without the power to execute it. So....that is what god is planning on destroying, the power to do evil. But a change of heart happens only when we see that gods way is the better way.

Anyway. The fear of hell is really the fear of loosing power to do what we want. Loosing control. And that is why christians are told to become like children. A state of mind where GOD is the one in control, and that is OK with us. To let go and let god, is liberating. Cause afterall what DO I really know about eternity and the grand scheme of things? For me, i might not know all that my Father is doing, but I know its for my good.

God is good. Something that many people have terrible problems accepting.

God bless and keep on searching!

Heneni

 

[Heneni]

Maybe they read their Bibles.

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
​

The cross is not a physical cross im sure you agree with it. The cross is that place where we give up our lives for the sake of others. Like Jesus did on his. We deny ourselves all that we would like to have and in exchange seek for all that God has for us. We deny ourselves our own rights, our own hopes and dreams our own understanding, and instead crucify it to the cross. By doing that we enter into a life eternal, a life free from the worries of this world, knowing that even if we had to give up all, we have gained the surpassing honour to know God personally.

And we also know that nailing ourselves, our hopes and dreams, our ambitions to the cross, we die to the world, but are resurrected into a new life. A life free from worries and burdens that this world brings.

So the cross is a symbol of our hope. A hope that we will live, forever, free from the weight of the world.

Heneni

 

[Mr Cheese]

Part of growing up is learning to rely on yourself.

God shouldn't be a looked at as a crutch....

wa:do

amen.....

but part of relying on yourself is knowing there is no self....

this is different to "being a puppet"....

There is a difference between totally giving the self to God, and simply being a puppet.
Being a puppet allows one to say, God did it, it was satan's fault my kitten got run over by a car.
By being puppets we act as automatons, mindless soulless beings... like zombies...
The alternative, participation is acting within the will of God, or in the process.

In Judaism we have the idea of vessels and light.
God is the giver and gives light.
Man is the receiver and the vessel.
Thus there is nothign else but give and receive and the interaction between these "forces"

“Christ will not be visible to the world in His Church except in
proportion as Christians seek peace and unity with one another and with
all men. But since conflict is inevitable, unity cannot be maintained
except in great difficulty, with constantly renewed sacrifice, with
lucid honesty, openness, humility, the readiness to ask forgiveness and
to forgive. Christian life is a perpetual conversion, a turning to God
and to the Church of pardon.”

–Thomas Merton
.......
Don’t rest on your Laurels
It’s neither “bad,” at this time, nor is it “good.”
Don’t cut part of yourself off to make a patch,
Don’t react like this to make a change…

–Kuan Yin -The Quatrains (65)

 

[Mr Cheese]

As far as hell goes, earth is hell.

The Miracle is not to fly in the air,
or to walk on the water:
but to walk on the earth.
–Chinese proverb

It is also heaven....

there is nothign to escape
nowhere to leave

You are already with God; you just have to perceive it, if you can't
........


In the ancient days, when the first quiver of speech came to my lips, I ascended the holy mountain and spoke unto God, saying, “Master, I am thy slave. Thy hidden will is my law and I shall obey thee for ever more.”

But God made no answer, and like a mighty tempest passed away.

And after a thousand years I ascended the holy mountain and again spoke unto God, saying, “Creator, I am thy creation. Out of clay hast thou fashioned me and to thee I owe mine all.”

And God made no answer, but like a thousand swift wings passed away.

And after a thousand years I climbed the holy mountain and spoke unto God again, saying, “Father, I am thy son. In pity and love thou hast given me birth, and through love and worship I shall inherit thy kingdom.”

And God made no answer, and like the mist that veils the distant hills he passed away.

And after a thousand years I climbed the sacred mountain and gain spoke unto God, saying, “My God, my aim and my fulfilment; I am thy yesterday and thou are my tomorrow. I am thy root in the earth and thou art my flower in the sky, and together we grow before the face of the sun.”

Then God leaned over me, and in my ears whispered words of sweetness, and even as the sea that enfoldeth a brook that runneth down to her, he enfolded me.

And when I descended to the valleys and the plains God was there also.

–Kahlil Gibran

 

[Heneni]

amen.....

but part of relying on yourself is knowing there is no self....

this is different to "being a puppet"....

.......
Don’t rest on your Laurels
It’s neither “bad,” at this time, nor is it “good.”
Don’t cut part of yourself off to make a patch,
Don’t react like this to make a change…

–Kuan Yin -The Quatrains (65)

Many people dont like this idea that they are just a puppet. And perhaps i need to explain that part better.

God has a sovereign will and a revealed will. His sovereign will does not require us to go along if we so wished. He does what he does without our concent and without our input. When god has decided to do something there is nothing we can do to change his sovereign will.

However, there is also the revealed will of god. The will of god that requires us to act on it, or not to act. That we can choose to do or not to do. In that sense we are not puppets, god requires our co-operation.

The sovereign will of god does not require our decision to co-operate, god simply uses people or events or circumstances to bring about his perfect plan. You wont know if you have been a puppet in a situation. You might even think that you made it happen when in fact you had little to do with it and god was the one behind it.

God sovereign will shall be done, whether we agree with it or not. Mostly we dont know the sovereign will of god, he keeps it hidden so that we wont be tempted to think that we are just puppets and he doesnt love us he just uses us. For me...I find comfort in his sovereign will because if he is using me as a puppet he must be using me for something that is good.

On the other hand, the revealed will of god does require our determined decision to co-operate. We learn a great deal by being obedient to the revealed will of god. We learn by experience that gods way is the best way by either doing or not doing what he requires.

There is none of us who can twart gods final plan from coming to fruition. But we can by being obedient or not to the revealed will of god, (the sovereign will is often the secret will), change the depth of our relationship we have with Him.

The bible is clear that some will be saved as if snatched out of the fire, and others have been chosen and predestined to conform into the image of his son. Two different kinds of people. The one makes it by the skin of his burning teeth, and the other does not 'make' it, the other becomes like his son jesus.

Heneni

 

[Mr Cheese]

How do you know that you have now been able to see things for the way they really are, and have not fallen into another deception or perhaps the only deception? Just trying to understand.

I have spoken to countless people who have 'tried' christianity and it did not work for them. I mean there are SO many people like this. But with furthur investigation you will find that when they were following the faith, christ was not the most treasured possession of their soul. And unless christ is the most treasured possession of the soul, nothing in this religion called chirstianity will 'work'.

Im not saying this to discourage anybody but rather to encourage in the sense that, what you feel was hog wash in the end, was perhaps! There is more to it that you experienced or you understood. I have never in my lifetime come across any man or women who treasured christ as the most precious posession of their soul to turn around and say it was all balony.

Naturally a wishy washy chirsitianity will result in torn hearts and souls in no time. But the kind of religion im talking about is a complete captivation of the soul by the greatness of god. And would sell all they have to keep it if they had to. That is real christianity. Nobody would willingly give up their most precious possession if they knew the value of it. They would rather sell all they have to buy it in the first place!

I feel terrible for so many people who have resigned their quest for god, simply because they havent found him yet.

There is a saying: There are none so deluded as those who take comfort in a god they simply dont possesses. And its these people who make our faith look terrible. The atheists give it their best shot as well.

Heneni

Everything has its place
When a person is ready, the teacher will arrive.
Some are only ready to eat pizza, others can eat nutritous meals

Even the lowly dung beetle has its place.
Just because someone does not "get it" by your perception does not mean that they should be "called out"

“DETACHMENT from things does not mean setting up a contradiction between “things” and “God” as if God were another “thing” and as if His creatures were His rivals. We do not detach ourselves from things in order to attach ourselves to God, but rather we become de-tached from ourselves in order to see and use all things in and for God. This is an entirely new perspective which many sincerely moral and ascetic minds fail utterly to see. There is no evil in anything created by God, nor can anything of His become an obstacle to our union with Him. The obstacle is in our “self,” that is to say in the tenacious need to maintain our separate, external, egotistical will. It is when we refer all things to this outward and false “self” that we alienate ourselves from reality and from God. It is then the false self that is our god, and we love everything for the sake of this self. We use all things, so to speak, for the worship of this idol which is our imaginary self. In so doing we pervert and corrupt things, or rather we turn our relationship to them into a corrupt and sinful relationship. We do not thereby make them evil, but we use them to increase our attachment to our illusory self.


Those who try to escape from this situation by treating the good things of God as if they were evils are only confirming themselves in a terrible illusion. They are like Adam blaming Eve and Eve blaming the serpent in Eden. “Woman has tempted me. Wine has tempted me. Food has tempted me. Woman is pernicious, wine is poison, food is death. I must hate and revile them. By hating them I will please God. . .”

These are the thoughts and attitudes of a baby, of a savage and of an idolater who seeks by magic incantations and spells to protect his egotistical self and placate the insatiable little god in his own heart. To take such an idol for God is the worst kind of self-deception. It turns a man into a fanatic, no longer capable of sustained contact with the truth, no longer capable of genuine love.

In trying to believe in their ego as something “holy” these fanatics look upon everything else as unholy.”

--Thomas Merton

 

[Mr Cheese]

Many people dont like this idea that they are just a puppet. And perhaps i need to explain that part better.

God has a sovereign will and a revealed will. His sovereign will does not require us to go along if we so wished. He does what he does without our concent and without our input. When god has decided to do something there is nothing we can do to change his sovereign will.

However, there is also the revealed will of god. The will of god that requires us to act on it, or not to act. That we can choose to do or not to do. In that sense we are not puppets, god requires our co-operation.

The sovereign will of god does not require our decision to co-operate, god simply uses people or events or circumstances to bring about his perfect plan. You wont know if you have been a puppet in a situation. You might even think that you made it happen when in fact you had little to do with it and god was the one behind it.

God sovereign will shall be done, whether we agree with it or not. Mostly we dont know the sovereign will of god, he keeps it hidden so that we wont be tempted to think that we are just puppets and he doesnt love us he just uses us. For me...I find comfort in his sovereign will because if he is using me as a puppet he must be using me for something that is good.

On the other hand, the revealed will of god does require our determined decision to co-operate. We learn a great deal by being obedient to the revealed will of god. We learn by experience that gods way is the best way by either doing or not doing what he requires.

There is none of us who can twart gods final plan from coming to fruition. But we can by being obedient or not to the revealed will of god, (the sovereign will is often the secret will), change the depth of our relationship we have with Him.

The bible is clear that some will be saved as if snatched out of the fire, and others have been chosen and predestined to conform into the image of his son. Two different kinds of people. The one makes it by the skin of his burning teeth, and the other does not 'make' it, the other becomes like his son jesus.

Heneni

While I agree with you in principle
I cannot agree that we ae born dirty
Earth is hell
Satan will kill kittens if I am bad

Predestination if taken to its logical conclusion also states that some are saved, and the rest are just going through the motions and will end up in eternal hell fire...

While I agree with you, I tend to see through a more esoteric lense than one where we must obey or we get punishment. The clarity of the bible that you profess seems to me not much more than a carrot dangling on the end of a stick. Behave, or else...
Although I do not think that is fully what you are saying, it would appear that is a large part of your message.

God is not external to anyone,
but is present with all things,
though they are ignorant that he is so.

–Plotinus

 

[Heneni]

While I agree with you in principle
I cannot agree that we ae born dirty

I know that unless a child is given guidance and not left to his own devices they often end up being very different to what we would think of as a 'saint'. In the same way the children of god need guidance and He does not leave us to our own devices but instead intervenes so that we can learn the ways of god.

When we are born naturally there is something in us that just seems to want to go in the opposite direction to god. And that is why God has to draw us to him. If we were naturally drawn to him, we would not need him to do the drawing.

Everybody has gone astray, all have gone their own way at some point. How did that happen? If we are born with the instinct to go gods way, would we have ended up going the other way? The nature of a shephard is to go looking for his lost sheep. And to keep them together. So i would say that there is no reason to assume that we are born with the ability to go the right way. We need a shephard to find us, we need a god to draw us and we need intervention to remain in the fold. Naturally atheist find comfort in finding their own way. All 'ways' lead somewhere though and atheist believe that their path end when they die. Naturally then they would want to be the king of their own castle.

If the commandment of god is to love him, and we are born with the natural ability to do so, why dont more people love him.

I wouldnt say that we are born dirty, we are just born with no natural desire to remain clean.

Mankind if left to their own devices have done the most terrifying things. And even today there is a huge drive to exclude god from all our descisions and lawmaking procedures because man feels they know how to do things right. I think our track record indicates otherwise . Many of our laws are actually based on the bible, like 'do not murder' and 'dont steal'.

Who on this earth is really the king of his own castle though. Who on this earth is completely free from the dicates of man in some form or another? Even presidents have to listen to and submit to somebody or something. No man on this earth is outside the scope of being told what to do in some form or another. Some people just dont want the controllig power in their lives to be god, but they have to submit to other men anyway. So who is really free? Man keeps mankind captive.

The children of god are free. We dont submit to man we submit to god. We are free from men but we are not free from god. And that is cool! Id rather be chained to god, than go down with man.

Sure we have to obey the laws of the land, but only in as far as it doesnt go against the laws of god. So really we only have one ruler and king. God. Not god and man. That takes a great deal of weight from us. Our interests are not divided. Our God is our judge. If mankind were our judges we would be far worse off! If we follow men, we have to share in their fate whatever that might be. If we follow God, we will share in his fate.

Anyway I think I have gone of the point a little. Thanks for your imput.

Heneni

 

[Heneni]

Everything has its place
When a person is ready, the teacher will arrive.

Xexon.

 

[Mr Cheese]

I know that unless a child is given guidance and not left to his own devices they often end up being very different to what we would think of as a 'saint'. In the same way the children of god need guidance and He does not leave us to our own devices but instead intervenes so that we can learn the ways of god.

When we are born naturally there is something in us that just seems to want to go in the opposite direction to god. And that is why God has to draw us to him. If we were naturally drawn to him, we would not need him to do the drawing.

Everybody has gone astray, all have gone their own way at some point. How did that happen? If we are born with the instinct to go gods way, would we have ended up going the other way? The nature of a shephard is to go looking for his lost sheep. And to keep them together. So i would say that there is no reason to assume that we are born with the ability to go the right way. We need a shephard to find us, we need a god to draw us and we need intervention to remain in the fold. Naturally atheist find comfort in finding their own way. All 'ways' lead somewhere though and atheist believe that their path end when they die. Naturally then they would want to be the king of their own castle.

If the commandment of god is to love him, and we are born with the natural ability to do so, why dont more people love him.

I wouldnt say that we are born dirty, we are just born with no natural desire to remain clean.

I think some people are more to do this than others....
The problem I find, is the concept of original sin
Many christians feel this idea is a way to look from a perspective of dirty, filthy and straying from God as opposed to aligned with God. At worst this becomes a doctrine of Women are evil, snakes are satanic and we should beat ourselves with sticks as we are sinners

I understand what you are saying, but I think viewing that we begin from "negativity" does not make for a psychologically healthy person

Mankind if left to their own devices have done the most terrifying things. And even today there is a huge drive to exclude god from all our descisions and lawmaking procedures because man feels they know how to do things right. I think our track record indicates otherwise . Many of our laws are actually based on the bible, like 'do not murder' and 'dont steal'.

I think you'll find not murdering and stealing predate the bible...
The problem with "including God" in our decisions is that there are so many opinions on God, and what is meant by God's "laws", especially in america....

It comes down to letting one group have more say in things than another, because they believe their book and their interpretation of their book is correct, while others are not.

Many Christians for example believe other christians of another group, are not christians. Many Christians for example think catholics are not christians.

Who on this earth is really the king of his own castle though. Who on this earth is completely free from the dicates of man in some form or another? Even presidents have to listen to and submit to somebody or something. No man on this earth is outside the scope of being told what to do in some form or another. Some people just dont want the controllig power in their lives to be god, but they have to submit to other men anyway. So who is really free? Man keeps mankind captive.

The children of god are free. We dont submit to man we submit to god. We are free from men but we are not free from god. And that is cool! Id rather be chained to god, than go down with man.

Sure we have to obey the laws of the land, but only in as far as it doesnt go against the laws of god. So really we only have one ruler and king. God. Not god and man. That takes a great deal of weight from us. Our interests are not divided. Our God is our judge. If mankind were our judges we would be far worse off! If we follow men, we have to share in their fate whatever that might be. If we follow God, we will share in his fate.

Anyway I think I have gone of the point a little. Thanks for your imput.

Heneni

 

[Mr Cheese]

Xexon.

Pardon?

 

[richardlowellt]

But we do this everyday. We trust the train driver we cant see, we trust the chef preparing our food, we trust MacDonalds burgers and yet we cannot see them doing their jobs, we just buy the food, we climb on the train and think nothing more of it.

EXACTLY, BUT THE BIG DIFFERENCE IS THAT YOU ARE TRUSTING SOMETHING OR SOMEONE ROOTED IN REALITY, NOT A FICTITIOUS BEING THAT BEARS NOT A SHRED OF EVIDENCE.



There seems to be a stampede of christians out of christianity.

THEY HAVE ALL SEEN THE SMOKE AND MIRRORS OF WHAT CHRISTIANITY HAS TO OFFER, A HIDDEN GOD, A DEMON GOD THAT WOULD TORTUE FOR THE SMALLEST VIOLATION OF HOS LAWS, A WATCHFUL DICTATOR PEERING INTO OUR PRIVATE THOUGHTS, THE OBLIGATION TO FEEL LIKE A MISERABLE SINNER, NO WONDER THEY ARE LEAVING, I'M SURPRISED IT HAS TAKEN AS LONG AS IT HAS.



As far as hell goes, earth is hell.


WHAT A SORRY STATEMENT, I REALLY DO FEEL SORRY FOR ALL WHO BELIEVE AS YOU. I BELIEVE YOU HELL WILL COME WHEN UPON YOUR DEATH, YOU FIND OUT THERE IS NO ETERNAL AFTERLIFE, AND KNOWING YOU HAVE WATED YOU PRECIOUS TIME ON THIS WONDERFUL PLANET.

Anyway. The fear of hell is really the fear of loosing power to do what we want. Loosing control. And that is why christians are told to become like children.


YES, LITTLE LOST CHILDREN, ALWAYS LOOKING TO DADDY FOR GUIDANCE, LOST SHEEP, CHILDREN OF GOD, PRAY FOR HELP, THE ONLY PROBLEM IS PRAYERS ARE NEVER ANSWERED, ASK THE AMPUTEES WHO HAVE PRAYED FOR THE RESTORATION OF MISSING LIMBS, NEVER HAS GOD GRANTED THAT, WHY DOES YOUR GOD SO HATE AMPUTEES?

God is good. Something that many people have terrible problems accepting.

God bless and keep on searching!

Heneni[/QUOTE]

 

[Heneni]

Many christians feel this idea is a way to look from a perspective of dirty, filthy and straying from God as opposed to aligned with God. At worst this becomes a doctrine of Women are evil, snakes are satanic and we should beat ourselves with sticks as we are sinners

Although I believe that we are naturally inclined to not align ourselves with god, i think that the beating ourselves with sticks when we dont would serve no purpose but to draw us away from god. To repent one needs to understand the gravity of the situation or the seriousness of the offense. Beating oneself with a stick would indicate that we believe we are our own punishers.

Some would say that there is nothing to be fixed. It doesnt quite look like that when you look at the booksales of self-help books which are making a killing all over the world. LOL...people know there is something 'wrong' and they take steps to 'fix' themselves.

Now our relationship with god is what needs fixing. And for that reason Jesus came to reconcile us to god. To make peace between us and him. The other 'fixing' happens as we have fellowship with god as part of gods workmanship in us. Self-help the bible says is no help at all. Many people in the world go for various courses and read various books to try and change the way they think and behave. Why would they do that? They feel like they are broken and need to be 'fixed'. A christian does not have that weight on their shoulders. The change that god brings about in our lives happens as we get to know him, not as we try and fix ourselves.

I understand what you are saying, but I think viewing that we begin from "negativity" does not make for a psychologically healthy person

As I have explained above, there are really a lot of people who feel this 'negative' state of being all by themselves. And some self-help programs and courses then tells the person to look in the mirror and say, 'i am ok, i am ok'. Does that fix them?

I think you'll find not murdering and stealing predate the bible...
The problem with "including God" in our decisions is that there are so many opinions on God, and what is meant by God's "laws", especially in america....

Gods opinion counts. We cannot make descisions based on what man tell us, we have to make descisions by using the knowledge we have of right from wrong which we have acquired from god to make our decisions right?

It comes down to letting one group have more say in things than another, because they believe their book and their interpretation of their book is correct, while others are not.

And again...there is no pressure on a christian to do as man says.

Many Christians for example believe other christians of another group, are not christians. Many Christians for example think catholics are not christians

There is only one true christian. He/she is the one that reflects the glory of god, in however small amount it might be present in the beginning.

Christianity is christ-centered not denomination or dogma centred.

PS: Never mind the xexon...i was thinking that i have spoken to you before under a different screen name. Sorry my mistake. Besides you are english he was american. :rainbow1:

Heneni

 

[Heneni]

EXACTLY, BUT THE BIG DIFFERENCE IS THAT YOU ARE TRUSTING SOMETHING OR SOMEONE ROOTED IN REALITY, NOT A FICTITIOUS BEING THAT BEARS NOT A SHRED OF EVIDENCE

.
Of course it would be fictitious...unless it wasnt. LOL. What one man calls a fairy tale the other calls his life. Cinderella has never done anything for me. God on the other hands has done a great deal for me. Which im terribly thankfull for. My faith does not need the approval of others to survive. I know its real, just as you know cinderella is NOT real. That leaves us with nothing much in common.

THEY HAVE ALL SEEN THE SMOKE AND MIRRORS OF WHAT CHRISTIANITY HAS TO OFFER, A HIDDEN GOD, A DEMON GOD THAT WOULD TORTUE FOR THE SMALLEST VIOLATION OF HOS LAWS, A WATCHFUL DICTATOR PEERING INTO OUR PRIVATE THOUGHTS, THE OBLIGATION TO FEEL LIKE A MISERABLE SINNER, NO WONDER THEY ARE LEAVING, I'M SURPRISED IT HAS TAKEN AS LONG AS IT HAS.

There was a time in my life, where i felt like i had to somehow appologise for being a christian. Not only that i felt like i had to excuse and stand up for christians who behave badly. I dont have that desire any longer. I can only share what i know and i can only be true to myself if i dont pretend that god isnt real.

WHAT A SORRY STATEMENT, I REALLY DO FEEL SORRY FOR ALL WHO BELIEVE AS YOU. I BELIEVE YOU HELL WILL COME WHEN UPON YOUR DEATH, YOU FIND OUT THERE IS NO ETERNAL AFTERLIFE, AND KNOWING YOU HAVE WATED YOU PRECIOUS TIME ON THIS WONDERFUL PLANET.

I feel that you need to get personal and talk in a manner that would try to degrade me and my faith. I wont do the same to you, but i do feel that there is a little anger there that i cannot help you with.

YES, LITTLE LOST CHILDREN, ALWAYS LOOKING TO DADDY FOR GUIDANCE, LOST SHEEP, CHILDREN OF GOD, PRAY FOR HELP, THE ONLY PROBLEM IS PRAYERS ARE NEVER ANSWERED, ASK THE AMPUTEES WHO HAVE PRAYED FOR THE RESTORATION OF MISSING LIMBS, NEVER HAS GOD GRANTED THAT, WHY DOES YOUR GOD SO HATE AMPUTEES?

Again...i certainly could spend many hours trying to convince you that god is good, but really god will do that in the end. So I'll just pass on that one. What I can say however, is that my hope is securely fixed on God. And I am the first to acknowledge that if god is not real, i of most people are to be pitied. And because i know this, i have endeavoured to make myself sure of the fact, and god has honoured that by making himself real to me.

God bless!
Heneni

 

[Mr Cheese]

Although I believe that we are naturally inclined to not align ourselves with god, i think that the beating ourselves with sticks when we dont would serve no purpose but to draw us away from god. To repent one needs to understand the gravity of the situation or the seriousness of the offense. Beating oneself with a stick would indicate that we believe we are our own punishers.

Some would say that there is nothing to be fixed. It doesnt quite look like that when you look at the booksales of self-help books which are making a killing all over the world. LOL...people know there is something 'wrong' and they take steps to 'fix' themselves.

Now our relationship with god is what needs fixing. And for that reason Jesus came to reconcile us to god. To make peace between us and him. The other 'fixing' happens as we have fellowship with god as part of gods workmanship in us. Self-help the bible says is no help at all. Many people in the world go for various courses and read various books to try and change the way they think and behave. Why would they do that? They feel like they are broken and need to be 'fixed'. A christian does not have that weight on their shoulders. The change that god brings about in our lives happens as we get to know him, not as we try and fix ourselves.

I agree, but you have to understand for many, it is difficult to admit we have done wrong.... by doing wrong we have gotten angry for no apparent reason, stolen something, had envy, commited adultery etc.

I see nothing wrong with admitting that we simply make mistakes...
many of course do not see these things as mistkaes
because of the language potrayed by christians many see this as obeying some tyrant, when really it is all common sense.

Common sense:
If you sleep with your neighbor's wife... he may beat you out of anger
not a good thing

if you steal siomething... you are taking the property of another without honestly paying for it. You could argue no one owns anything, but still we need to give each other enough to eat.... "If you do not work, you will not eat"

I am in heaven if I seek to be, those trapped in hell are there also

While we may feel this negative state our selves, I dont think it helps to declare this same state exists with God...

Obviously that state exists due to denial (at least from my perspective) denial of how things are, all IS God.... Christianity generally as I said follows that we are imperfect and we have to "get something"

From my perspective, we are already perfect, we just dont know it
The caterpillar cannot fly until it has wings....but the caterpillar and the butterfly are still the same being.

Can man grow wings by himself? Well many would say yes, I, like you would argue not...

before we "know" God, there is duality...
I and we, God and me

after we know God, there is only God

The main christian mistake, many make is to see God as some lofty thing we need to obtain, that we need to "leave" earth, leave "hell"

Really there is nowehre to go. We are like children, asleep.
We are to be like adults, awake...
When we awaken we see differently to when we slumbered.

The time of action does not differ at all from my time of prayer;
I possess God as tranquilly in the bustle of my kitchen
–where sometimes several people are asking me different things at one time
—as if I was on my knees before the blessed sacrament…
It is not necessary to have great things to do.
I turn my little omelet in the pan for the love of God;
when it is finished, if I have nothing to do,
I prostrate myself on the ground and adore my God,
who gave me the grace to make it, after which I rise,
more content than a King. When I cannot do anything else,
it is enough for me to have lifted a straw from the earth
for the love of God.

–Brother Lawrence

As I have explained above, there are really a lot of people who feel this 'negative' state of being all by themselves. And some self-help programs and courses then tells the person to look in the mirror and say, 'i am ok, i am ok'. Does that fix them?




Gods opinion counts. We cannot make descisions based on what man tell us, we have to make descisions by using the knowledge we have of right from wrong which we have acquired from god to make our decisions right?



And again...there is no pressure on a christian to do as man says.



There is only one true christian. He/she is the one that reflects the glory of god, in however small amount it might be present in the beginning.

Christianity is christ-centered not denomination or dogma centred.

PS: Never mind the xexon...i was thinking that i have spoken to you before under a different screen name. Sorry my mistake. Besides you are english he was american. :rainbow1:

Heneni

The problem is, no one can agree fully on what God's opinions are....
You say there is a universality. I would agree. I would go further than saying there is only one true christian. I would say there are no Christians, no Hindus, no Muslims....

There is just God

Until we as a people understand this, there will always be bickering, arguing, over who is right.

Division.

He who wherever he goes is attached to no person
and to no place by ties of flesh;
who accepts good and evil alike,
neither welcoming the one nor shrinking from the other
take it that such a one has attained Perfection….


–The Gita

 

[slave2six]

Would you care to clarify what exactly you mean by people like me? Are you referring to theists? Or perhaps you mean non Christians who respond to Christian themed threads?

Your statement was, "I'm glad I have Krishna, otherwise all of those things would be very hard." What I meant was that I don't understand people who take comfort in something that is invisible, exclusively personal, and unquantifiable in any physical terms. I mean, I can understand the comfort of a friend who simply sits with you while you are grieving and says nothing or the comfort of talking to people who have had similar difficult experiences but I can't understand comfort in someone that I can neither see nor hear nor experience at all with the senses by which human beings interact with other people and/or things. At least a brick wall can be touched even if it cannot speack or move of its own accord.

 

[Heneni]

From my perspective, we are already perfect, we just dont know it
The caterpillar cannot fly until it has wings....but the caterpillar and the butterfly are still the same being.

I agree that christians are already perfect in a certain sense but perhaps not for the same reasons. Did you mean everybody or the children of god? I believe we are perfect because we are perfectly loved by God. Our recreated spirit, is also perfect, but need to grow in understanding. What is not perfect and by nature tends to want move away from god, is our human nature. But our identity lies within our spirit, which is the only thing that can respond positively towards god if god quickens it.

before we "know" God, there is duality...
I and we, God and me

after we know God, there is only God

I dont agree with this premise. If what you mean is that we are god.

The main christian mistake, many make is to see God as some lofty thing we need to obtain, that we need to "leave" earth, leave "hell"

God is certainly in my mind a lofty and prescious treasure. Here again comes the importance of becoming like children. Children love treasure.

If there really is only God, and nothing else, then God died for no reason. He would have died for himself. Therefore there has to be me and god. Else the idea of a relationship would be pointless, and the idea of forgiveness too. If we are all god, then god does not need to forgive himself because he cannot act contrary to who he is.

If god did not want me and him, he would not have created me seperate from him. However even though i am a seperate being, the life force that flows through my spirit is from him. That is what connects us as one. But I am still me, and he is still god. If it wasnt so, i would be justified in worshipping myself. Love finds its delight not in worshipping oneself, but extending honour and glory to the object of your affection. God is love, to share that love he would have to create something other than himself in order to share that love. Everybody is born with this desire...to be loved. And we hold our hearts out like little cups wanting to fill it up with love which is the food for the heart. Christians choose to fill up their hearts with the love of god. Other people might want to fill it up with the love of money, or the love of success, or the love of men.

The creation is not god. That is my understanding so far. If i bake a cake the cake is seperate from me. Its not me, but certainly it is my handy work. So part of my personality or taste would go into baking the cake. But its still not me. My energy went into making it , just like gods energy went into making the universe. But the universe is not god. He fills everything everywhere with evidence of himself. Just like the baked cake would be evidence that there must have been someone who made it and the look and taste of the cake would maybe say something about what i prefer. But they are still seperate things.

Heneni

 

[Mr Cheese]

Your statement was, "I'm glad I have Krishna, otherwise all of those things would be very hard." What I meant was that I don't understand people who take comfort in something that is invisible, exclusively personal, and unquantifiable in any physical terms. I mean, I can understand the comfort of a friend who simply sits with you while you are grieving and says nothing or the comfort of talking to people who have had similar difficult experiences but I can't understand comfort in someone that I can neither see nor hear nor experience at all with the senses by which human beings interact with other people and/or things. At least a brick wall can be touched even if it cannot speack or move of its own accord.

have you ever transcended the 5 senses?

 

[Mr Cheese]

I agree that christians are already perfect in a certain sense but perhaps not for the same reasons. Did you mean everybody or the children of god? I believe we are perfect because we are perfectly loved by God. Our recreated spirit, is also perfect, but need to grow in understanding. What is not perfect and by nature tends to want move away from god, is our human nature. But our identity lies within our spirit, which is the only thing that can respond positively towards god if god quickens it.



I dont agree with this premise. If what you mean is that we are god.



God is certainly in my mind a lofty and prescious treasure. Here again comes the importance of becoming like children. Children love treasure.

If there really is only God, and nothing else, then God died for no reason. He would have died for himself. Therefore there has to be me and god. Else the idea of a relationship would be pointless, and the idea of forgiveness too. If we are all god, then god does not need to forgive himself because he cannot act contrary to who he is.

If god did not want me and him, he would not have created me seperate from him. However even though i am a seperate being, the life force that flows through my spirit is from him. That is what connects us as one. But I am still me, and he is still god. If it wasnt so, i would be justified in worshipping myself. Love finds its delight not in worshipping oneself, but extending honour and glory to the object of your affection. God is love, to share that love he would have to create something other than himself in order to share that love. Everybody is born with this desire...to be loved. And we hold our hearts out like little cups wanting to fill it up with love which is the food for the heart. Christians choose to fill up their hearts with the love of god. Other people might want to fill it up with the love of money, or the love of success, or the love of men.

The creation is not god. That is my understanding so far. If i bake a cake the cake is seperate from me. Its not me, but certainly it is my handy work. So part of my personality or taste would go into baking the cake. But its still not me. My energy went into making it , just like gods energy went into making the universe. But the universe is not god. He fills everything everywhere with evidence of himself. Just like the baked cake would be evidence that there must have been someone who made it and the look and taste of the cake would maybe say something about what i prefer. But they are still seperate things.

Heneni

Nothign dies.... it merely transforms

Human nature is the false idea that we are seperate from God, and as such, yes it is in error, the I, the id, the ego.... that which must be conquored

The artist is inseperable from their painting...

If we look to science we know, all thigns are connected... physically.
Nothign exists seperatly from another thing

If we look to religion:

One day as Manjusri stood outside the gate,

the Buddha called to him,

“Manjusri, Manjusri, why do you not enter?”

Manjusri replied,

“I do not see myself as outside. Why enter?”

...........

We see things as we are
Not as they are

--Kahlil Gibran

 

[Heneni]

Nothign dies.... it merely transforms

Human nature is the false idea that we are seperate from God, and as such, yes it is in error, the I, the id, the ego.... that which must be conquored

The artist is inseperable from their painting...

If we look to science we know, all thigns are connected... physically.
Nothign exists seperatly from another thing

If we look to religion:

One day as Manjusri stood outside the gate,

the Buddha called to him,

“Manjusri, Manjusri, why do you not enter?”

Manjusri replied,

“I do not see myself as outside. Why enter?”

...........

We see things as we are
Not as they are

--Kahlil Gibran

Then we have to agree to disagree.