Christianity vs Baha'i

[Trailblazer]

And you believe it? And you investigated the truth of this for yourself? And you had no questions? I would still call it "Baha'is make the fictional character Adam a manifestation because their prophet said so." Did Krishna come before Adam? If not how about the other incarnations of Vishnu that came before Krishna? Was Adam over 900 years old when he died? What religion did he found? Nothing, none, zero... he's a character in the many characters in the Jewish Bible. They don't make him into a manifestation of God, so why do Baha'is? I know, because Baha'u'llah said so. Did Jesus? Did Moses? Did Muhammad? King David was the "Lord's Anointed" why not make him a manifestation? He even wrote some God inspired things?

There is no way to prove any of that and it does not matter to me. I investigated the Baha'i Faith so I believe that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God, so I know that whatever He wrote is true.

 

[Trailblazer]

Revelation implies that the Lamb is Jesus and that it is Jesus, as the Lamb of God, that is returning. Read it. Revelation isn't that long.

No, that is not what it implies, it is what Christians want to believe.

Jesus will never return unless Jesus lied in the following verses or the Bible is in error, and if the following to verses are in error, then how can we trust anything else in the New Testament?

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

If Jesus finished the work God gave Him to do, why would He return, to play golf with President Trump?
Get real.

 

[Redemptionsong]

That mediator is Christ, the Holy Spirit.

That is how Jesus is the first and the Last, not the body, the Spirit Jesus was Annointed with and known as Christ.

Regards Tony

The mediator on earth must be BOTH flesh and Holy Spirit.

If Jesus was not fully man (as well as being fully God [Holy Spirit]) then Jesus could not have been the Lamb, the sacrifice of flesh and blood.

This is why the mediator between God and men must be fully man and fully God.

Consequently, the Comforter cannot refer to flesh, to Muhammad or to Baha'u'llah. The Comforter is the Holy Spirit, for, as Jesus said, 'That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.'

 

[Trailblazer]

It seems to me that you have created dispensations that have no justification within scripture.

I did not create the Dispensations, God created them by sending another Messenger.

If Baha'u'llah was a mediator, was he also sinless? Did he die for the sin of mankind? Does mankind need a second Lamb?

Baha'u'llah was sinless in God's Eyes. Baha'u'llah did not die for the sin of mankind, that was not His mission. That was the mission of Jesus. Mankind does not need a second Lamb to die for our sins because that has already been done:

John 19:28-30 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst. Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth. When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

But mankind did need another Messenger to complete the work Jesus started, and that is why God sent Baha'u'llah.

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.

We can well perceive how the whole human race is encompassed with great, with incalculable afflictions. We see it languishing on its bed of sickness, sore-tried and disillusioned. They that are intoxicated by self-conceit have interposed themselves between it and the Divine and infallible Physician. Witness how they have entangled all men, themselves included, in the mesh of their devices. They can neither discover the cause of the disease, nor have they any knowledge of the remedy. They have conceived the straight to be crooked, and have imagined their friend an enemy.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

 

[Trailblazer]

The mediator on earth must be BOTH flesh and Holy Spirit.

If Jesus was not fully man (as well as being fully God [Holy Spirit]) then Jesus could not have been the Lamb, the sacrifice of flesh and blood.

This is why the mediator between God and men must be fully man and fully God.

Nobody can be fully man and fully God because that is impossible.
The Holy Spirit is not God, it is the Bounty of God.
Jesus brought the Holy Spirit.

 

[Trailblazer]

Consequently, the Comforter cannot refer to flesh, to Muhammad or to Baha'u'llah. The Comforter is the Holy Spirit, for, as Jesus said, 'That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.'

According to Baha'i beliefs, the Comforter is a Title for the man who brings the Holy Spirit, but the Comforter can also be thought of as the Holy Spirit since it is the Bounty of God that comforts people. God sent the Comforter/Holy Spirit when He sent Jesus and Baha’u’llah. Jesus was a Comforter and Baha'u’llah was another Comforter who the Father sent in Jesus' name.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

It makes logical sense that the Comforter must be associated with a man, because a “disembodied” Holy Spirit cannot do any of the following things that it says the Comforter and Spirit of truth will do in these verses: John 14:26; John 15:26; John 16:8,13,14

• Teach you all things
• Call to remembrance what Jesus said
• Testify of Jesus
• Glorify Jesus, receive of Jesus, and shew it unto you
• Guide you into all truth
• Speak what He hears and shew you things to come
• Reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment

John 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Just as Jesus promised, Baha’u’llah glorified Jesus and testified of Jesus.
Referring to Jesus as the Son of Man, Baha'u'llah wrote:

“We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 86

 

[Redemptionsong]

I did not create the Dispensations, God created them by sending another Messenger.

Baha'u'llah was sinless in God's Eyes. Baha'u'llah did not die for the sin of mankind, that was not His mission. That was the mission of Jesus. Mankind does not need a second Lamb to die for our sins because that has already been done:

John 19:28-30 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst. Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth. When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

But mankind did need another Messenger to complete the work Jesus started, and that is why God sent Baha'u'llah.

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.

We can well perceive how the whole human race is encompassed with great, with incalculable afflictions. We see it languishing on its bed of sickness, sore-tried and disillusioned. They that are intoxicated by self-conceit have interposed themselves between it and the Divine and infallible Physician. Witness how they have entangled all men, themselves included, in the mesh of their devices. They can neither discover the cause of the disease, nor have they any knowledge of the remedy. They have conceived the straight to be crooked, and have imagined their friend an enemy.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

How does Baha'u'llah complete the work that Jesus began? What has Jesus Christ failed to accomplish? Can Baha'u'llah forgive sin? Can Baha'u'llah baptise with the Holy Spirit? Where is Baha'u'llah now?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Nobody can be fully man and fully God because that is impossible.
The Holy Spirit is not God, it is the Bounty of God.
Jesus brought the Holy Spirit.

Not impossible according to scripture.

Is God not Spirit, and holy? Was this Spirit not also upon Jesus? Is the Spirit of Christ not also in the Church, the temple of God?

 

[Trailblazer]

How does Baha'u'llah complete the work that Jesus began? What has Jesus Christ failed to accomplish? Can Baha'u'llah forgive sin? Can Baha'u'llah baptise with the Holy Spirit? Where is Baha'u'llah now?

Jesus did not fail to accomplish anything He set out to do. Jesus already forgave sin, so why would Baha'u'llah have to do that? Baha'u'llah came to reveal the "many things" that we were not ready to hear 2000 years ago, the things that will be necessary to build the Kingdom of God on earth, as Jesus told us to pray for.

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Baha'u'llah is in the spiritual world (heaven) with Jesus and God and all the other Messengers of God.

 

[CG Didymus]

The thing about the Bahai faith, and indeed, Islam, is that they both make claims about the Bible, and about Jesus, that are not consistent with the biblical message as a whole. But only a careful and thorough study of the text of the Bible makes this apparent.

The Second Coming of Christ is said to be mentioned 318 times in the 260 chapters of the New Testament and it occupies one in every twenty-five verses from Matthew to Revelation. [R.A.Torrey]

What appears to take place at the Second Coming is a return in two phases. In the first phase, the Lord descends from heaven on the clouds [See Acts 1:11; Matthew 24:30]. This is followed by a 'rapture' of the dead and living saints, taking them away from the vengeance that occurs on earth. At a time unspecified, following God's vengeance, the Lord then descends to earth with his saints. This is why the Second Coming is likened to the days of Noah and to the days of Sodom.

It may well be that Christ in his glory has not the exact appearance of the man Jesus. It says in Zechariah 14:1-4 that 'his feet shall stand that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the East', but it is possible that this is metaphorical, given that Christ in resurrection has a spiritual body.

What cannot be claimed legitimately is that Christ has come back to Jerusalem already. If He had come already then there would have been a judgment on the earth. In Isaiah 61:2, the work of the suffering servant is followed by 'the day of vengeance', something that Jesus intentionally avoided mentioning in the synagogue in Nazareth [see Luke 4:18,19]. Why? Because the vengeance belongs to the return, or Second Coming, following a period of mercy and grace [2 Peter 3:9,10].

Baha'is have nothing to do with Jerusalem or the Mt. of Olives. Can you quote any Messianic or second-coming verses that state that the Messiah will appear in Jerusalem, the Mt. of Olives or Zion? Also, since Baha'is claim that Christ has already returned, it there any verses that say that the Messiah will come, and die, and tribulations will continue? I've argued with Baha'is that in Revelation all the bad things happen prior to Jesus coming back, and then, at that time, he does away with the evil doers and establishes his kingdom.

 

[Redemptionsong]

According to Baha'i beliefs, the Comforter is a Title for the man who brings the Holy Spirit, but the Comforter can also be thought of as the Holy Spirit since it is the Bounty of God that comforts people. God sent the Comforter/Holy Spirit when He sent Jesus and Baha’u’llah. Jesus was a Comforter and Baha'u’llah was another Comforter who the Father sent in Jesus' name.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

It makes logical sense that the Comforter must be associated with a man, because a “disembodied” Holy Spirit cannot do any of the following things that it says the Comforter and Spirit of truth will do in these verses: John 14:26; John 15:26; John 16:8,13,14

• Teach you all things
• Call to remembrance what Jesus said
• Testify of Jesus
• Glorify Jesus, receive of Jesus, and shew it unto you
• Guide you into all truth
• Speak what He hears and shew you things to come
• Reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment

John 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Just as Jesus promised, Baha’u’llah glorified Jesus and testified of Jesus.
Referring to Jesus as the Son of Man, Baha'u'llah wrote:

“We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 86

The Holy Spirit is not 'disembodied' because the Holy Spirit comes to dwell within all those who repent and believe in Jesus Christ.

The Comforter does not restrict his dwelling to one or two people. At Pentecost a hundred and twenty were in the upper room when the Spirit descended. It was not Muhammad that descended! It was not Baha'u'llah that descended!

The Spirit in a believer is able to do all the things that you listed.

 

[Trailblazer]

Not impossible according to scripture.

Is God not Spirit, and holy? Was this Spirit not also upon Jesus? Is the Spirit of Christ not also in the Church, the temple of God?

Scripture does not say that Jesus was fully man and fully God, that is a Christian doctrine.
Scripture says that Jesus was a Manifestation of God.

1 Timothy 3:16 King James Version (KJV)

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

God is Spirit and holy, and this Spirit was also upon Jesus since Jesus was One with the Father.

Jesus was the Son of God, and although the Son is not the Father, the Father is in the Son.

Jesus was a clear mirror, and God became visible in the mirror. This is why Jesus said, “The Father is in the Son” (John 14:11, John 17:21) meaning that God is visible and manifest in Jesus.

“I and my Father are one” (John 10:30) means that the Manifestation of God, in this case Jesus, and God are one and the same, so whatever pertains to the Manifestation of God, all His acts and doings, as well as whatever He ordains and forbids, is identical with the Will of God Himself.

 

[Trailblazer]

The Spirit in a believer is able to do all the things that you listed.

Then why, after over 2000 years, they have not been done?

Have Christians reproved the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment?

 

[CG Didymus]

Jesus never promised to return Himself.

Rev 22:12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”​

Who is talking here? I don't know what you're seeing but it sure sounds like Jesus to me. And you've been shown this verse and others, but you do the Baha'i wiggle to squirm out of them. Which is fine. Reinterpret it anyway you want but don't say Jesus never promised to return himself.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Baha'is have nothing to do with Jerusalem or the Mt. of Olives. Can you quote any Messianic or second-coming verses that state that the Messiah will appear in Jerusalem, the Mt. of Olives or Zion? Also, since Baha'is claim that Christ has already returned, it there any verses that say that the Messiah will come, and die, and tribulations will continue? I've argued with Baha'is that in Revelation all the bad things happen prior to Jesus coming back, and then, at that time, he does away with the evil doers and establishes his kingdom.

Zechariah 8:3. 'Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.'

Zechariah 14:4,5. 'And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east.....'

 

[Redemptionsong]

Then why, after over 2000 years, they have not been done?

Have Christians reproved the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment?

That's exactly what individual Christians do when they preach Christ!

 

[CG Didymus]

I believe that Jesus Christ has a spiritual body, but spiritual bodies do not exist on earth, they exist in heaven, which is a spiritual world. Spiritual bodies do not come back to earth.

So when the Bible says that angels have appeared to people they are lying? When Baha'is say they have seen Abdul Baha. That was not a spirit body? It was what... a vision? If so, a vision of what... doesn't it appear to be the body of Abdul Baha? Except it is not a physical body, so why couldn't it be a spirit body?

 

[CG Didymus]

Christ was not prophesied to return to Jerusalem.

So there is zero verses that say the Messiah will return to Jerusalem? And you've studied and read the Bible and determined this on your own? No, wait, it's good old Bill Sears again. Like he's not bias towards each and every verses he can find to prove that Baha'u'llah is the Christ. Please, check for yourself. Christians didn't get it out of thin air. And then, what about Jews, where do they say the Messiah will return to?

 

[Trailblazer]

Rev 22:12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”​

Who is talking here? I don't know what you're seeing but it sure sounds like Jesus to me. And you've been shown this verse and others, but you do the Baha'i wiggle to squirm out of them. Which is fine. Reinterpret it anyway you want but don't say Jesus never promised to return himself.

Jesus did not write the Book of Revelation. Those verses do not refer to Jesus. Jesus said He was not coming back to this world.

Why does everyone fail to respond when I post these verses over and over and over again?

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

 

[Trailblazer]

So there is zero verses that say the Messiah will return to Jerusalem?

I looked and I could not find any such verses but let me know if you find any.