Christianity vs Baha'i

[Trailblazer]

That was not a spirit body? It was what... a vision?

Yes, it was a vision. Spirits do not live on earth but they can appear on earth.

 

[CG Didymus]

@CG Didymus

Bahais believe Adam was a historical person. He was the first human, who started the Adamic Cycle. The Adamic Cycle was 6000 years, and ended by manifestation of the Bab. When Baha'u'llah came, He started a new cycle, which will be 500,000 years. Just as Adam was a very unique manifestation in the sense that He started a new cycle, likewise Bahaullah is special, because He began a new cycle, after the previous cycle ended.
Bible starts speaking from the time of Adam, as beginning of that world. But before Adam, there were other Worlds (cycles).

And tell me the true story about Adam. What did he say? Where did he live? When did he live? 6000 years ago? If he was the first human, then there were no "manifestation" prior to Adam? Or there were but they looked like Chimpanzees or something? But wait a second, there were no humans before 6000 years ago? Are you sure that's what Baha'is believe?

 

[Trailblazer]

That's exactly what individual Christians do when they preach Christ!

Then why is there still so much sin in the world?

 

[CG Didymus]

But even as a spiritual being, Christ was on earth in the midst of men.

1 Corinthians 10:3,4. 'And [Moses and the Israelites] did all eat the same spiritual meat;
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.'

Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus. But I'm sure Baha'i don't believe that really happened.

 

[paarsurrey]

Nobody can be fully man and fully God because that is impossible.
The Holy Spirit is not God, it is the Bounty of God.
Jesus brought the Holy Spirit.

I agree with one.
Applying Religious Method:

1. There is no claim from Jesus of being "fully man and fully G-d".
2. Jesus never gave any reason in support of this claim.

Both requirements are not fulfilled. Right, please?

Regards

 

[CG Didymus]

I looked and I could not find any such verses but let me know if you find any.

Redemptionsong found a couple. I'll do a quick search of a Jewish website and see what they say.

Zechariah 8:3. 'Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.'

Zechariah 14:4,5. 'And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east.....'

 

[paarsurrey]

The mediator on earth must be BOTH flesh and Holy Spirit.

If Jesus was not fully man (as well as being fully God [Holy Spirit]) then Jesus could not have been the Lamb, the sacrifice of flesh and blood.

This is why the mediator between God and men must be fully man and fully God.

Consequently, the Comforter cannot refer to flesh, to Muhammad or to Baha'u'llah. The Comforter is the Holy Spirit, for, as Jesus said, 'That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.'

" Jesus said. 'That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.' "

Jesus did not say it, it is a third person claim that Jesus said it. Right, please?

Regards

 

[Trailblazer]

Zechariah 8:3. 'Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.'

Baha'u'llah did dwell in the midst of Jerusalem.

Isaiah prophesied that the Plain of Sharon and the holy mountain, Carmel, would both be centres for the light and presence of the ‘Glory of the Lord’ in the last days. He said:

“The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.” (Isaiah 35:1).

“It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.” (Isaiah 35:2).

“And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.” (Isaiah 35:10).

Again in the chapter preceding the one in which he, Isaiah, promises that God will raise up a ‘righteous man from the East’, he foretells:

“And the Glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of God hath spoken it.” (Isaiah 40:5).

"In that same year (1890) Bahá’u’lláh’s tent, the “Tabernacle of Glory,” was raised on Mt. Carmel, “the Hill of God and His Vineyard,” the home of Elijah, extolled by Isaiah as the “mountain of the Lord,” to which “all nations shall flow.” Four times He visited Haifa, His last visit being no less than three months long. In the course of one of these visits, when His tent was pitched in the vicinity of the Carmelite Monastery, He, the “Lord of the Vineyard,” revealed the Tablet of Carmel, remarkable for its allusions and prophecies. On another occasion He pointed out Himself to ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, as He stood on the slopes of that mountain, the site which was to serve as the permanent resting-place of the Báb, and on which a befitting mausoleum was later to be erected." (God Passes By, p. 194)

William Sears, Thief in the Night

The Baha’i World Centre is on Mount Carmel... How do you explain that?

Above Haifa, Israel, stands Mt. Carmel, proclaiming the Glory of the Lord has come.

 

[Trailblazer]

I agree with one.
Applying Religious Method:

1. There is no claim from Jesus of being "fully man and fully G-d".
2. Jesus never gave any reason in support of this claim.

Both requirements are not fulfilled. Right, please?

Regards

Right.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

And tell me the true story about Adam. What did he say? Where did he live? When did he live? 6000 years ago? If he was the first human, then there were no "manifestation" prior to Adam? Or there were but they looked like Chimpanzees or something? But wait a second, there were no humans before 6000 years ago? Are you sure that's what Baha'is believe?

Hehe, Manifestations looked like Champanzees?

I don't know really. I wasn't there, to see how the manifestations before Adam looked like. But as long as there were human on earth God sent them prophets or Manifestations.

 

[CG Didymus]

I looked and I could not find any such verses but let me know if you find any.

Wow, Jews are so different than both Christians and Baha'is. This is from Judaism 101...
What Will the Mashiach Do?
Before the time of the mashiach, there shall be war and suffering (Ezekiel 38:16)

The mashiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15).

The term "mashiach" literally means "the anointed one," and refers to the ancient practice of anointing kings with oil when they took the throne. The mashiach is the one who will be anointed as king in the End of Days.

The word "mashiach" does not mean "savior." The notion of an innocent, divine or semi-divine being who will sacrifice himself to save us from the consequences of our own sins is a purely Christian concept that has no basis in Jewish thought. Unfortunately, this Christian concept has become so deeply ingrained in the English word "messiah" that this English word can no longer be used to refer to the Jewish concept. The word "mashiach" will be used throughout this page.

Some gentiles have told me that the term "mashiach" is related to the Hebrew term "moshiah" (savior) because they sound similar, but the similarity is not as strong as it appears to one unfamiliar with Hebrew. The Hebrew word "mashiach" comes from the root Mem-Shin-Chet, which means to paint, smear, or anoint. The word "moshiah" comes from the root Yod-Shin-Ayin, which means to help or save. The only letter these roots have in common is Shin, the most common letter in the Hebrew language. The "m" sound at the beginning of the word moshiah (savior) is a common prefix used to turn a verb into a noun. For example, the verb tzavah (to command) becomes mitzvah (commandment). Saying that "mashiach" is related to "moshiah" is a bit like saying that ring is related to surfing because they both end in "ing."

The Mashiach
The mashiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5). The mashiach is often referred to as "mashiach ben David" (mashiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments (Isaiah 11:2-5). He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15). But above all, he will be a human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being.

 

[CG Didymus]

Hehe, Manifestations looked like Champanzees?

I don't know really. I wasn't there, to see how the manifestations before Adam looked like. But as long as there were human on earth God sent them prophets or Manifestations.

6000 years ago isn't that long ago for a first human. I thought Baha'u'llah said that there were other manifestations but the records of them have long since been lost.

 

[paarsurrey]

It seems to me that you have created dispensations that have no justification within scripture.

If Baha'u'llah was a mediator, was he also sinless? Did he die for the sin of mankind? Does mankind need a second Lamb?

Did Jesus claim to be sinless, please?
Did Jesus say Adam was sinful, please?
If yes, please quote first person claim from Jesus, not a third person claim from any other narrator, please. Right, please?

Regards

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Rev 22:12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”​

Who is talking here? I don't know what you're seeing but it sure sounds like Jesus to me. And you've been shown this verse and others, but you do the Baha'i wiggle to squirm out of them. Which is fine. Reinterpret it anyway you want but don't say Jesus never promised to return himself.

John was seeing and hearing these things, which according to this book was shown to him by an angel who was sent by Jesus.

They are figurative.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

6000 years ago isn't that long ago for a first human. I thought Baha'u'llah said that there were other manifestations but the records of them have long since been lost.

Yes, I remember that quote from Bahaullah as well.

 

[CG Didymus]

A big, big, big if CG.

People are free to hang on to that If.

Science tells us what happens to flesh, but everyone wants the miracle over the hard choices.

God fobid that a Christian could have got it wrong!

Regards Tony

I have no problem believing that the NT is pure myth. But Baha'is put themselves into that awkward position of believing in Jesus but not everything said about him. But, the other thing is, even Christians say that the resurrected body was different. They call it a "Glorified" body. So that's there way around a "normal" fleshly body. This Glorified body can appear and disappear and ascend into the clouds... and return.

 

[Redemptionsong]

[QUOTE
Baha'u'llah is in the spiritual world (heaven) with Jesus and God and all the other Messengers of God.[/QUOTE]

Why then does Daniel 7:13,14 talk about the ascension of 'one like the Son of man' going to his Father [the Ancient of days] 'with the clouds of heaven'.

'And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.'

If 'all people' are to serve the Son of man, there isn't much room for serving other mediators.

The question of great importance to the truth, is determining when the kingdom was established. This scripture shows that the kingdom was established the moment that Jesus Christ ascended to heaven and came to the 'Ancient of days'.

The outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost demonstrates that the Son of man was sat at the right hand of this Father in the midst of the throne ten days after his ascension. Jesus would not have been able to send the Holy Spirit had he not been enthroned with his Father.

 

[Trailblazer]

Wow, Jews are so different than both Christians and Baha'is. This is from Judaism 101...
What Will the Mashiach Do?
Before the time of the mashiach, there shall be war and suffering (Ezekiel 38:16)

The mashiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15).

I already posted that to you a couple of days ago. Here is the pertinent part of that post:

Jews believe that the Messiah is coming just for them, that He will be the redeemer of the Jewish people, just as the Christians believe that the Messiah is Jesus who will come to redeem the Christians.

The Messiah in Judaism (Hebrew: מָשִׁיחַ‎, romanized: māšîaḥ (Mashiach)) is a savior and liberator figure in Jewish eschatology, who is believed to be the future redeemer of the Jewish people. The concept of messianism originated in Judaism,[1][2] and in the Hebrew Bible a messiah is a king or High Priest traditionally anointed with holy anointing oil.[3] However, messiahs were not exclusively Jewish, as the Hebrew Bible refers to Cyrus the Great, king of Persia, as a messiah[4] for his decree to rebuild the Jerusalem Temple.

In Jewish eschatology, the Messiah is a future Jewish king from the Davidic line, who is expected to be anointed with holy anointing oil and rule the Jewish people during the Messianic Age and world to come.[1][2][5] The Messiah is often referred to as "King Messiah" (Hebrew: מלך משיח‎, romanized: melekh mashiach) or malka meshiḥa in Aramaic.[6]

Messiah in Judaism - Wikipedia

The salient problem is that the scriptures of all the great religions speak of a world redeemer, a Messiah , and the beliefs of the Jews and Christians -- according to their interpretation of prophecies -- do not describe the Messiah those other religious people are waiting for according to their own prophecies.

Prophecy Fulfilled Webpage

Prophecies from World Religion and other sources

Of course, the difference between the Baha’is and the Jews and Christians is that we believe that the Messiah came to redeem the entire world.

#217 Trailblazer

 

[paarsurrey]

@Redemptionsong

Bahais believe, return of Jesus, was the same way, as return of Elijah as another person (John).
You must be familiar with this. When Jesus said to apostles that Elijah is returned, but they did not recognize him, and treated him badly. The apostles understood, Jesus was talking about John. The story is in the Bible.

" return of Jesus, was the same way, as return of Elijah as another person "
I agree with one here.
A person who dies never comes back in this world. Right, please?

Regards

 

[CG Didymus]

John was seeing and hearing these things, which according to this book was shown to him by an angel who was sent by Jesus.

They are figurative.

Yes, but that doesn't help. It still makes it a quote from Jesus. We can't just write it off and say that Jesus never that can we?