Christianity vs. Islam

[Shadow Wolf]

there is not Heaven. And if there is no Heaven there is no God.

You may want to inform the Jews, because they don't have this problem.

See him as the 'Adversary' in the book of Job. (Job 1:6-12)

He was doing his job. Aa god ordained and saw fit. Satan is too obedient to do otherwise.

One need only believe their Old Testament.

I belive the saying goes "quality over quantity." And, leave it to a Christian to insist that Jews are doing their own religion wrong, never mind the fact Christians generally have a poor understanding of Judaism.

My point being: both are the messages of Christ.

Except Jesus said to not follow those who came after him. And, do you really want me to embarrass you by citing Bible verses about what Jesus said? Do you want the shame that an apostate knows the words of your Christ better than you? Jesus was highly forgiving, declaring to let he who is without sin cast the first stone, asking no questions and turning no one away. Paul we find is into casting stones and ostracizing people.

 

[sooda]

You may want to inform the Jews, because they don't have this problem.

He was doing his job. Aa god ordained and saw fit. Satan is too obedient to do otherwise.

I belive the saying goes "quality over quantity." And, leave it to a Christian to insist that Jews are doing their own religion wrong, never mind the fact Christians generally have a poor understanding of Judaism.

Except Jesus said to not follow those who came after him. And, do you really want me to embarrass you by citing Bible verses about what Jesus said? Do you want the shame that an apostate knows the words of your Christ better than you? Jesus was highly forgiving, declaring to let he who is without sin cast the first stone, asking no questions and turning no one away. Paul we find is into casting stones and ostracizing people.

Good post...….

 

[metis]

I am a Christian and I have on occasion read parts of the Quran. This is the major difference between the God of the Quran (Allah) and the God of the Bible and it is significant. In the Bible, God first loved us; unconditionally. No matter what we do He still loves us. In the Quran, Allah’s love is conditional upon obedience. Obey first, then He will love you. Anyone have any thoughts?

Actually there isn't much of a difference in this regard because God (Allah) will punish one way or the other for sinning according to both the Bible and the Qu'ran.

BTW, both "God" and "Allah" are the same, both ultimately coming from the Sumerian root "El" ["Elohim" & "Allah", with "Gott" coming from the German]. The differences are a matter of opinions about God and what God may teach, which even varies within Christianity.

 

[Jesuslightoftheworld]

Christians changed the meaning of the Torah.

How do?

 

[Jesuslightoftheworld]

Good post...….

How do?

I meant how so?

 

[ToelessTooth]

Moses and Abraham probably didn't exist and Joshua was created as a national hero, but the Hebrews never had any large armies.. Canaanite cities were prosperous and uninterrupted .. and paid tribute to Pharaoh.

Hard to claim it was the land of milk and honey because it was hardscrabble arid and stony .. Especially in the south around Jerusalem.

Allegorical or didactic literature. The message is important, but it was never intended as history or science.

I gotta say, you've got a unique view. It's refreshing to hear from a Christian

 

[wizanda]

BTW, both "God" and "Allah" are the same, both ultimately coming from the Sumerian root "El" ["Elohim" & "Allah", with "Gott" coming from the German]. The differences are a matter of opinions about God and what God may teach, which even varies within Christianity.

Please don't just misrepresent the same misinformation to people, after just being shown something is flawed.

Middle Eastern theological history relays that isn't right, the Tanakh shows that isn't right, the very reason the Curse of Moses is about to burn everyone, is because of this flawed comprehension being taught (Deuteronomy 32:15-22).

The idea we all have to die according to prophecy, as people can not be bothered to study the contexts in their own books, is offensive to me - I don't want everyone to die; please be realistic with everyone's survival.

Moses explained our people would go astray, from taking from other religions (Deuteronomy 7:16).

We can show contexts from the Tanakh; not supplanting another meaning into the Tanakh from Sumerian roots, which is a totally different language, and system of religion.

Ilah in Arabic is 'God', Al Ilah is 'The God' and Ala Ilah is 'God Most High.

Christianity is confused that Yeshua's father is El Elyon (God Most High - Luke 1:32, Luke 6:35).

Yahavah Elohim (Exodus 15:2, Psalms 112, Isaiah 12:2) said it will become our Salvation (H3444):

Which it did in the form of King David becoming the Teacher of Righteousness (Psalms 89:19-21 = Isaiah 52:13-14 - Marred = Anointed).

Yeshua Elohim (Isaiah 52:10) then returns as the triumphant King Zion Elohim in Isaiah 52:7.

This makes David both our King, and suffering Priest, who ended sacrificial law by his own soul; thus becoming of the Order of Melchizedek (Psalms 110) - King of Righteousness.

The original idea before Rabbinic corruption by the Pharisees, is by praying in the name of Yehoshua (Exodus 23:20-23) our sins can be removed; as it is praying in the name of the 'Lord Saves' in Hebrew, and if we pray in the name of Yeshua, this means the Salvation of God (H3444).

The Quran is very specific Allah has never interacted with mankind directly (42:51); thus Elohim have been used Biblically to interact with mankind by El (Source), which has never been seen in Ancient Hebraic contexts.

El Elyon is beyond form, and is the ultimate Source of all reality; Elohim are the Divine Council, manifest Divine Beings, where there are 24 Elders, and One Ambassador in many religions.

Let's question the basics of the language in Hebrew, why bother having two words the same El (H410), and Eloh (H433); which are then specifically used, yet then in translation, people have played let's pretend these differences don't mean anything, since soon after the Babylonian Exile.

We can find plural of El in the Bible (Elim - Psalms 29:1, Psalms 89:7); where Yahavah is a son of Elim, and therefore Elohim is plural of Eloh.

The idea that the creation story in Hindu texts, and Genesis: that the Lord of Creation (Yahavah = Lord Brahma) spoke the Word, which created earth, is the same theological structuring globally.

Why mankind wants to kill each other over this is beyond me; please don't destroy each other, because people don't get religion.

It is like this thread says 'Versus', when it is a comparative understanding, to find the truth in the middle comprehension.

In my opinion.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

You may want to inform the Jews, because they don't have this problem.

He was doing his job. Aa god ordained and saw fit. Satan is too obedient to do otherwise.

I belive the saying goes "quality over quantity." And, leave it to a Christian to insist that Jews are doing their own religion wrong, never mind the fact Christians generally have a poor understanding of Judaism.

Except Jesus said to not follow those who came after him. And, do you really want me to embarrass you by citing Bible verses about what Jesus said? Do you want the shame that an apostate knows the words of your Christ better than you? Jesus was highly forgiving, declaring to let he who is without sin cast the first stone, asking no questions and turning no one away. Paul we find is into casting stones and ostracizing people.

The point being, satan, is in the Old Testament. Whether Judaism believes it or not.

Again, all you have to do is read the Old Testament. Israel, the Jews, constantly rebelled against God and his prophets. This is why they are where they are today. This is why they have no Temple, no sacrifice. Point being, it is not arrogant to present the truth of Israel and the Jews in their Old Testament. As a result, one should not be surprised at their rejection of That Prophet, Jesus Christ, when He came. Read (Acts 7), as this is exactly the point Stephen was making to the Jews before they killed him also.

It is no embarrassment or shame to me for you to give the verses you are using.

You speak in very general terms concerning Jesus and Paul. You say Jesus is highly forgiving. You say, Paul casts stones and ostracizes people. Again, an incomplete presentation of both.

Concerning Jesus who 'highly forgives': (Matt. 12:32 "...whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."

(Matt. 6:15) "But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

(Matt. 23:1-36) "...Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?...That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias...whom ye slew...."

Concerning Paul who 'ostracizes and casts stones': (2 Cor. 2:7) "So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him,...."

(2 Cor. 2:10) "To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for yoursakes forgave I it in the person of Christ."

(Eph. 4:32) "And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you."

(Philemon 17-18) "If thou count me therefore a partner, receive him as myself. If he hath wronged thee, or oweth thee ought, put that on mine account."

(Rom. 9:1-4) "...I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites...."

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[sooda]

The point being, satan, is in the Old Testament. Whether Judaism believes it or not.

Again, all you have to do is read the Old Testament. Israel, the Jews, constantly rebelled against God and his prophets. This is why they are where they are today. This is why they have no Temple, no sacrifice. Point being, it is not arrogant to present the truth of Israel and the Jews in their Old Testament. As a result, one should not be surprised at their rejection of That Prophet, Jesus Christ, when He came. Read (Acts 7), as this is exactly the point Stephen was making to the Jews before they killed him also.

It is no embarrassment or shame to me for you to give the verses you are using.

You speak in very general terms concerning Jesus and Paul. You say Jesus is highly forgiving. You say, Paul casts stones and ostracizes people. Again, an incomplete presentation of both.

Concerning Jesus who 'highly forgives': (Matt. 12:32 "...whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."

(Matt. 6:15) "But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

(Matt. 23:1-36) "...Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?...That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias...whom ye slew...."

Concerning Paul who 'ostracizes and casts stones': (2 Cor. 2:7) "So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him,...."

(2 Cor. 2:10) "To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for yoursakes forgave I it in the person of Christ."

(Eph. 4:32) "And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you."

(Philemon 17-18) "If thou count me therefore a partner, receive him as myself. If he hath wronged thee, or oweth thee ought, put that on mine account."

(Rom. 9:1-4) "...I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites...."

Good-Ole-Rebel

In Judaism "satan" is not a sentient being but a metaphor for the evil inclination – the yetzer hara – that exists in every person and tempts us to do wrong.


Jewish View
He (Satan) is clearly subordinate to God, a member of His suite (Heb. Bene ha-elokim), who is unable to act without his permission. Nowhere is he in any sense a rival of God. The Encyclopedia Judaica The Christian claim that it was Satan who created evil is utterly fraudulent according to our Tanach: I (God) form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45:7 God creates all things, not simply good things. There isn't a single verse in the entire Tanach that states that Satan ever created evil or ever disobeyed a command from God. Satan is an obedient servant of God in the Tanach who serves the role of man's accuser in God's court.

continued

The Jewish View of Satan

 

[firedragon]

Islam wants to build itself on the prophets of the Bible. But then distorts what is said in the Bible. It blends it's 'new' religion from Muhammad, with it's old pagan beliefs. So, yes. Islam does not conform to the Bible, or Judaism or Christianity. It distorts it.

Well, I said 'My thought is this. Islam is the enemy of God and Christianity'. Why do I have to explain Christianity's relationship to all other religions? I don't. I will, but I don't have to. Christianity is certainly in opposition to all other religions. Because there is only one way to be right with God....Jesus Christ. This is so stated in the Bible, the Word of God. You don't really need verses do you? I mean, they wouldn't really mean anything to you.

That Islam's goal is to bring every country where Islam exists under it's submission does not contradict that it's a religion for the Arab peoples. Oh yes, there are a few followers from other people, but it is Arab.

Of course the West has a bias towards Christ and Christianity. That was God's intent. (Acts 16:6-10) Don't misunderstand me. I am not a newagey, peace and love type Christianity. I have no problem hating. Of course Islam loves it when Christianity is based on (Matt. 5-7). That opens the door for the Muslim to enter in 'peacefully' and set about to destroy the country where he exists. They are all about peace....till they have the numbers.

Good-Ole-Rebel

This is what you call "preaching". Islam wants to do this, Christianity wants to do that.

Invalid statements. One could probably cut and paste your statement and replace words and turn it against you yourself. Because its rhetoric.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The point being, satan, is in the Old Testament. Whether Judaism believes it or not.

I never claimed such. I said the Devil, which is entirely a Christian invention, doesn't exist at all in Judaism and the OT. Satan does, but Satan is a fiercely loyal and obedient angel who never rebelled and follows gods orders.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

In Judaism "satan" is not a sentient being but a metaphor for the evil inclination – the yetzer hara – that exists in every person and tempts us to do wrong.

Satan is an angel in Judaism (with the title ha-Satan) , and also a verb that means "to oppose."

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

In Judaism "satan" is not a sentient being but a metaphor for the evil inclination – the yetzer hara – that exists in every person and tempts us to do wrong.


Jewish View
He (Satan) is clearly subordinate to God, a member of His suite (Heb. Bene ha-elokim), who is unable to act without his permission. Nowhere is he in any sense a rival of God. The Encyclopedia Judaica The Christian claim that it was Satan who created evil is utterly fraudulent according to our Tanach: I (God) form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45:7 God creates all things, not simply good things. There isn't a single verse in the entire Tanach that states that Satan ever created evil or ever disobeyed a command from God. Satan is an obedient servant of God in the Tanach who serves the role of man's accuser in God's court.

continued

The Jewish View of Satan

Point being, satan is in the Old Testament. They can explain him away just like you explain it all away also.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

This is what you call "preaching". Islam wants to do this, Christianity wants to do that.

Invalid statements. One could probably cut and paste your statement and replace words and turn it against you yourself. Because its rhetoric.

No, it is what Islam is.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

I never claimed such. I said the Devil, which is entirely a Christian invention, doesn't exist at all in Judaism and the OT. Satan does, but Satan is a fiercely loyal and obedient angel who never rebelled and follows gods orders.

That is not so. The devil is another name for satan. Just like 'adversary' is another name for satan. Just because you don't believe the New Testament, doesn't mean the devil is not satan. Just because Judaism doesn't believe the New Testament, doesn't mean the devil is not satan.

Concerning your view of satan as obdedient and loyal, what in the world do you base that on?

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Concerning your view of satan as obdedient and loyal, what in the world do you base that on?

The many, many Jews who have explained the Jewish beliefs to me and relevant parts of the Hebrew language.

 

[metis]

Please don't just misrepresent the same misinformation to people, after just being shown something is flawed...

I posted from a source that's not affiliated with any one religion or denomination, so the problem is not mine. If one actually intends to study the evolution of "El" objectively, one can rather easily connect the dots.

OTOH, some don't want to do that because they have an agenda to push, and it's quite clear you are one of them. Here's that source again, so now I'm done with this: El (deity) - Wikipedia

 

[wizanda]

I posted from a source that's not affiliated with any one religion or denomination, so the problem is not mine.

Mixing multiple religions from Wikipedia, and saying here force that into an Islamic correction of Middle Eastern theological problems, is a huge error in reasoning.

If one actually intends to study the evolution of "El" objectively, one can rather easily connect the dots.

We can not randomly mix theological constructs from other religions, just because the languages sound slightly the same.

That would be like taking words in Zoroastrian texts that mean spirits, where in Hindu culture they mean demons, and then saying here look they're the same thing.

El in Sumerian culture has a totally different theological understanding compared to Hebraic texts, and by us not examining the texts for its details within them, the equations become illogical.

El Elyon should be defined by its Biblical usages, Allah should be defined by its Quranic usages; we can not just make up some ideas from other texts.

OTOH, some don't want to do that because they have an agenda to push, and it's quite clear you are one of them.

I've not got an agenda other than reading the religions to prevent the end of humanity; we're on the verge of WW3 in the Middle East because of this exact theological issue.

The idea of being shown how what was being said is wrong according to the texts we're talking about, and then someone proceeds to again show false information, to then misrepresent the texts in question; when mankind will soon die because of this, and then to proceed to walk off, whilst not listening to any correction, I find extremely morally wrong of someone.

El (deity) - Wikipedia

The whole Historical context of El in many different cultures, with totally different structures on Wikipedia is very confusing to most people.

We should show historical contexts from the Bible first, and explain its theological constructs; then examine the Islamic corrections - Not just start making up stuff that has no historical contexts, other than a word that sounds similar.

In my opinion.

 

[firedragon]

Satan is an angel in Judaism (with the title ha-Satan) , and also a verb that means "to oppose."

Isnt Ha Sathan and Satan the exact same thing?

No, it is what Islam is.

Good-Ole-Rebel

See. You did it again.

That sentence can be reverted back to you with just a replacement of one word. Not valid brother. Its better to seriously be objective. I know that you will either reply with a similar response or not reply at all but i am saying this for the sake of saying this.

Though you wont even honour with value to this, let me ask you a question based on your comments.

Which Islam are you speaking about?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Isnt Ha Sathan and Satan the exact same thing?

Yes. As far as I know, the "ha" part is more like saying the. But only to Judaism. Christianity amd Islam habe the "Satan as Devil" character that is foreign to Judaism and not a part of it.