Christianity's hidden privilege

[Watchmen]

Which countries, specifically?

If you're talking about former colonies of European countries, then we're still talking about catering to Christians.

Let’s start with one: Japan.

 

[Wildswanderer]

As a society, we've arranged our schedule around Christianity: Christian days of worship and holidays are "standard" days off work. Other religions don't get this privilege. This has lots of effects that disadvantage non-Christians.

As an example (I'm a transportation engineer, so my brain goes to traffic impacts), say you have a plot of land next to a high school that you're looking to develop. You have in mind a place of worship for 1000 people... but what do you build?

If you build a mosque there, the peak of site traffic is going to be on Friday afternoon, just when the high school - and background traffic - is at its busiest. This can often mean that to build a mosque, you'd need expensive traffic upgrades: maybe building a left turn lane, or lengthening turn lanes at a nearby intersection. Expensive stuff.

OTOH, if you build a church there, the peak of site traffic is going to be on Sunday morning. There will be no traffic from the high school and background traffic will be light. Odds are that the road network can accommodate the church without expensive upgrades.

This difference in direct cost - which will end up as a major difference in out-of-pocket cost to the members of a religious congregation - can be traced back entirely to privileged treatment of Christianity: we shut a lot of our society down on Christian holy days, but Islam isn't afforded the same luxury.

So... what should be done about this? Do you agree that the mosque is being treated in a discriminatory way (maybe not deliberately, but discriminatory in effect)? If so, how should we as a society respond?

So what? We were founded as a Christian nation. And it sounds like the church wins because it doesn't interfere with traffic as much so I'm not seeing the problem.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Let’s start with one: Japan.

I'm not really familiar with why the Japanese work week is the way it is. Are you?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So what? We were founded as a Christian nation.

It's as anti-Christian as it is Christian.

The only group of people explicitly forbidden by law from being our head of state are members of a Christian denomination (Catholics). It's unlikely that a Muslim would ever become monarch of Canada for practical reasons, but they'd be allowed to take the office if they managed to do it. Only specific Christians are officially excluded.

And it sounds like the church wins because it doesn't interfere with traffic as much so I'm not seeing the problem.

It doesn't interfere with traffic because our society has been deliberately crafted to give privilege to Christians.

So you don't see deliberately giving privilege to Christians as a problem?

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

It's generally an excuse used to deny other religions legitimacy and equal treatment.

Otherwise, our government is restricted from establishing a state or official religion. That is what they meant.

Well you know more than I rhought. We do not have an established religion. That does not mean the government must ignore all religions.If one city wants to put up a Christmas tree, that is OK. If another city wants to celebrate a Muslim holiday, that is OK. They cannot require all citizens to follow a certain religion.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

The US was founded by Deists who promoted separation of Church and State precisely because many of them rejected the Christian principles of the Church.

We also stole the general design of the country from the Iroquois Confederacy, and the concept of human rights integral to our constitution was formed as a secular alternative to religious commandments by non-Christian figures like Thomas Paine.

So the country was founded by people who believed in God. Now people who do not believe in God want all references to Gos removed.

 

[Suave]

As a society, we've arranged our schedule around Christianity: Christian days of worship and holidays are "standard" days off work. Other religions don't get this privilege. This has lots of effects that disadvantage non-Christians.

As an example (I'm a transportation engineer, so my brain goes to traffic impacts), say you have a plot of land next to a high school that you're looking to develop. You have in mind a place of worship for 1000 people... but what do you build?

If you build a mosque there, the peak of site traffic is going to be on Friday afternoon, just when the high school - and background traffic - is at its busiest. This can often mean that to build a mosque, you'd need expensive traffic upgrades: maybe building a left turn lane, or lengthening turn lanes at a nearby intersection. Expensive stuff.

OTOH, if you build a church there, the peak of site traffic is going to be on Sunday morning. There will be no traffic from the high school and background traffic will be light. Odds are that the road network can accommodate the church without expensive upgrades.

This difference in direct cost - which will end up as a major difference in out-of-pocket cost to the members of a religious congregation - can be traced back entirely to privileged treatment of Christianity: we shut a lot of our society down on Christian holy days, but Islam isn't afforded the same luxury.

So... what should be done about this? Do you agree that the mosque is being treated in a discriminatory way (maybe not deliberately, but discriminatory in effect)? If so, how should we as a society respond?

Why not convert abandon shopping malls into Churches?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The U. S. was founded and built on Christian principles.

"...the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.."
-John Adams

 

[LuisDantas]

The way I see it, Christianity does indeed enjoy privileges that it often fails to recognize as such. But this choice of example may not be the best. I think that it reflects demographic significance and cultural influence to a considerably greater degree than privilege as such.

We may perhaps achieve a better perception of that privilege by studying the existence of legal and administrative provisions for non-Christian traditions in various environments. The most clear indication of that privilege may well be holiday day: members of legislative assemblies, mayors and employers tend to expect non-Christians to simply accept that they are a minority and should conform as a matter of course. Even the exceptions are almost always responses to the expectations of specific Christian groups such as the SDAs and JWs.

I find that tendency most unfortunate for both practical and ethical reasons. I long for the day when employers ask their employees about their choice of holiday days as a matter of course.

 

[Watchmen]

I'm not really familiar with why the Japanese work week is the way it is. Are you?

Generally speaking, many Japanese are expected to work long hours Mon through Fri. Weekends are considered family time.

In the US, weekend work was normal until the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938.

 

[RestlessSoul]

I was mostly thinking of every Sunday.

Here in Canada, we have a number of Christian stat holidays:

- Good Friday
- Easter Monday
- Christmas Day
- Boxing Day (the day after Christmas)


So your approach would be just to tolerate traffic jams around mosques? Sure - that's one approach to the inequality.


But those conditions are in a framework that has been specifically tailored to accommodate Christianity and not any other religion.

Alternatively, you could make money your God, and work 7 days a week.

Your concern for your country’s Muslim population is welcome though, I’m sure. Perhaps a 4 day weekend would keep everyone happy?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

As a society, we've arranged our schedule around Christianity: Christian days of worship and holidays are "standard" days off work. Other religions don't get this privilege. This has lots of effects that disadvantage non-Christians.

As an example (I'm a transportation engineer, so my brain goes to traffic impacts), say you have a plot of land next to a high school that you're looking to develop. You have in mind a place of worship for 1000 people... but what do you build?

If you build a mosque there, the peak of site traffic is going to be on Friday afternoon, just when the high school - and background traffic - is at its busiest. This can often mean that to build a mosque, you'd need expensive traffic upgrades: maybe building a left turn lane, or lengthening turn lanes at a nearby intersection. Expensive stuff.

OTOH, if you build a church there, the peak of site traffic is going to be on Sunday morning. There will be no traffic from the high school and background traffic will be light. Odds are that the road network can accommodate the church without expensive upgrades.

This difference in direct cost - which will end up as a major difference in out-of-pocket cost to the members of a religious congregation - can be traced back entirely to privileged treatment of Christianity: we shut a lot of our society down on Christian holy days, but Islam isn't afforded the same luxury.

So... what should be done about this? Do you agree that the mosque is being treated in a discriminatory way (maybe not deliberately, but discriminatory in effect)? If so, how should we as a society respond?

While historically western society is idd modeled after judeo-christian tradition... one might also say that judeo-christian tradition itself is also modeled after Roman tradition, which in turn is modeled after the traditions that came before it. It's not christianity that came up with the months and 7-day weeks. That's the Babylonians.

As for the concept of the "work week" and the "week end", that's actually a pretty recent development. Like 19th century (in england, if I'm not mistaken).

So the only real direct influence from judeo-christian tradition I see here, is the "day of rest" on sunday (which in judeo-christian tradition originally was on saterday though).

But even that "day of rest" isn't that applicable anymore.
Restaurants, bars etc... aren't exactly closed that day. Over here in Belgium, they mostly close on monday or tuesday. More and more regular shops are also open on sunday.
Lately (like the past decade or something) I also see supermarkets opening on sundays and closing during the workweek instead. Society has become to busy during the week. Both parents work, children go to school, do activities after school... doing groceries during the week is becoming very hard due to such schedules.


You give the example of a mosque next to a high school.
How about a church next to a baseball or soccer stadium? Wouldn't they run into the exact same problem on sunday as the mosque would on friday?


So my opinion here, is that while the "general structure" is indeed based in judeo-christian tradition, it's not really like it's that set in stone any longer. Those hard-wired structures are fading away and are becoming much looser. But I agree that they will remain some kind of blueprint in the overall structure of workweeks, calendars and holidays. Which is kind of logical also... one doesn't just throw away 2000 years of tradition and culture overnight. But it certainly seems to me that it no longer is seen as being "holy" or "unquestionable" or whatever.

If I look around at all the shops and businesses that are open on sunday... It's not that long ago that such would have been seen as scandalous. Today, people rather complain instread, when something isn't open on sunday.



So, in reference to your example....
I would say anyone can build whatever they want. If a certain site is too expensive for whatever reason: find another one. Or don't do the building project and spend your money on something else.



I don't feel like there's discrimination here to the point that it is a problem.
That might have been the case 50 years ago, but I don't think it's a problem today anymore.
At least not over here in western europe, in my experience.

 

[Wildswanderer]

The only group of people explicitly forbidden by law from being our head of state are members of a Christian denomination (Catholics). It's unlikely that a Muslim would ever become monarch of Canada for practical reasons, but they'd be allowed to take the office if they managed to do it. Only specific Christians are officially excluded.

Why is that? Sounds like you have it backwards then and Christianity is persecuted in your country.

 

[Wildswanderer]

So you don't see deliberately giving privilege to Christians as a problem?

I think you are reaching... just because it's convenient that they meet on Sunday that's giving them privilege?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Why is that?

Because we're a nation rooted in Christianity. Protestant Christianity for the most part.

Sounds like you have it backwards then and Christianity is persecuted in your country.

Religious freedom would be improved in Canada if we were fully secular, yes. Allowing Christian influence on our government has diminished the rights and freedoms of Christians generally.

Fun fact: here in Ontario, our government-funded Catholic schools also point to a legacy of religious persecution. Back in the day, when our public schools were infused with (Protestant) religion, they were very anti-Catholic.

The Catholic minority didn't have enough clout to stop the schools from being anti-Catholic, but they did have enough clout to be successful in their demands for a separate, taxpayer-funded system of schools just for Catholics... which is why we have Catholic schools today, even though the public system was secularized long ago.

Letting religion influence government is bad for all concerned, especially religious people.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

The U. S. was founded and built on Christian principles.

No, it wasn't. If it had been, you'd be able to name some of those Christian principles. Christianity says there is one god that must be worshiped, that man is born into sin needing salvation, that the only path to that is through Jesus. Those are Christian principles, not democracy, not a tri-partite government with checks and balances, and certainly not any guaranteed personal rights. That all comes from humanism, not Christianity. These are Christian principles, none of which appear in the founding document, the Constitution, and they forbid rebellion against the king

• "Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves."- Romans 13:1-2

We were founded as a Christian nation.

Secularists have been debunking this claim since they've had a voice. America is a secular state which government was founded on humanist principles.
let the founders tell you in their own words:

• “Religions are all alike – founded upon fables and mythologies.” – Thomas Jefferson

• “In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people.” – James Madison

• “Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.” – Benjamin Franklin

• “I beg you be persuaded that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution.” – George Washington

• “The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.” – John Adams

But take hope, Christians. America seems to be transforming into something closer to a Christian theocracy, as it forbids abortion, attacks same sex marriage and transgender rights, bans books, clamps down on elections, and becomes increasingly authoritarian in the Christian image of submission described in Romans above. Along with recriminalizing abortion and persecution of LGBTQ, they'd bring back slavery and witch hangings if they could, both of which the Christian Bible condones.

 

[wellwisher]

I think there's a difference between inherent unfairness that we just have to deal with and unfairness that was deliberately created.

And while my OP focused on one example that's kind of entrenched in our society now, a lot of other examples of Christian privilege need ongoing effort to keep alive. For instance, almost every workplace dress code accommodates Christian ideas about proper dress, but they're hit-and-miss about whether they'll accommodate other religions (e.g. allowing hijabs or turbans).

Christian countries tend to be among first world countries; Europe and North America. This is why immigrants of all types want to come to these countries. There is sometime about Christianity that makes this all possible. If you lose the Christian influences, then the country will go backwards to the second world, where immigrants wish to leave. Christianity is the light that is making immigration feel needed; a better way.

If you don't like the culture that attracted you to immigrate, one might be better off immigrating to places where there are people of like minds and where what your desire, is already the Main Street way. But this direction of immigration is less common, since the total fruit of those cultures are not very tolerant and not very accommodating and they often lack the opportunities found in Christians countries.

Why turn a first world culture into the second world so a few can feel more comfortable? Why not learn the ways of the first world that allow these freedoms to be possible, and then bring these ways culture back to your old countries, so you can have the best of both worlds?

The analogy is food. The most popular ethnic restaurants in the USA are Italian, Chinese, Mexican, French and American. This is not due to some form of conspiracy but racism, but because these foods meet the tastes of most people. It is due to merit with merit setting the bar higher for all, so everyone can up their game. Welcome to the first world.

What is being suggested is to force everyone to like food, that does not naturally bring out the crowds, using force of law. This force approach is how second and third world countries tend to behave; forced conformity. There is no freedom to choose, and no free market to accommodate all tastes and choices. Merit is key to the first world. This means more than a quota system, since quotas will water down until they regress backwards.

Modern Christianity stemmed from a 400AD hybrid of Ancient Roman and early Christian cultures. Rome was a very sophisticated and creative secular super power. It was also a military type society due to its vast empire. Christianity was a religion based on love, faith, and forgiveness. Their union was a paradox of extreme opposites.

The USA, which came from a later version of this hybrid, has all types of advanced weapons; Rome, but with the Christian influences for peace. Instead of urge for conquest we have the compromise; peace through strength.

Competition is not just war, in the USA, but it is mostly sports, free market and politics, so the competitive nature of Rome can be harnessed and make constructive. This is how a country of free citizens could appear with choices and rights; controlled chaos that makes the USA able to change and evolve.


If we take away the polarization of Christianity, with politics that hates Christianity, you get too much Roman. This shifts toward bigger Government, social violence, loss of rights and the dual justice system; rich and poor. The poor is no longer blessed.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Christian countries tend to be among first world countries; Europe and North America. This is why immigrants of all types want to come to these countries. There is sometime about Christianity that makes this all possible. If you lose the Christian influences, then the country will go backwards to the second world, where immigrants wish to leave. Christianity is the light that is making immigration feel needed; a better way.

Which of these countries do you see as especially attractive to immigrants?

Countries with the highest percentage of Christians:

1. Vatican City - 100%
2. Timor Leste - 99.1%
3. Romania - 98.0%
4. Armenia - 97.9%
5. Grenada - 97.3%
6. Papua New Guinea - 97%
7. Greenland - 96.6%
8. Haiti - 96% (tie)
9. Paraguay - 96% (tie)
10. Zambia - 95.5%

Most Christian Countries 2022

 

[pearl]

Competition is not just war, in the USA, but it is mostly sports, free market and politics, so the competitive nature of Rome can be harnessed and make constructive. This is how a country of free citizens could appear with choices and rights; controlled chaos that makes the USA able to change and evolve.

I have to ask if you are living in the same USA in this decade?

“That is how the Roman republic fell,” Souter continued. “Augustus became emperor not because he arrested the Roman senate. He became emperor because he promised that he would solve problems that were not being solved.”

Justice Souter’s old warning finds new life in this election | PBS NewsHour

 

[Wildswanderer]

Secularists have been debunking this claim since they've had a voice. America is a secular state which government was founded on humanist principles.
let the founders tell you in their own words:

• “Religions are all alike – founded upon fables and mythologies.” – Thomas Jefferson

• “In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people.” – James Madison

• “Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.” – Benjamin Franklin

• “I beg you be persuaded that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution.” – George Washington

George Washington
1st U.S. President


"While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."

John Adams
2nd U.S. President and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be."
--Diary and Autobiography of John Adams, Vol. III, p. 9.

"The general principles, on which the Fathers achieved independence, were the only Principles in which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite, and these Principles only could be intended by them in their address, or by me in my answer. And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all these Sects were United: And the general Principles of English and American Liberty...


"Now I will avow, that I then believe, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God; and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System."
-Adams wrote this on June 28, 1813, excerpt from a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

Thomas Jefferson
3rd U.S. President, Drafter and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever..."
--Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.
John Hancock
1st Signer of the Declaration of Independence


"Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us."
--History of the United States of America, Vol. II, p. 229.


Benjamin Franklin
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Unites States Constitution


"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.
John Quincy Adams
6th U.S. President


"The hope of a Christian is inseparable from his faith. Whoever believes in the divine inspiration of the Holy Scriptures must hope that the religion of Jesus shall prevail throughout the earth. Never since the foundation of the world have the prospects of mankind been more encouraging to that hope than they appear to be at the present time. And may the associated distribution of the Bible proceed and prosper till the Lord shall have made 'bare His holy arm in the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God' (Isaiah 52:10)."
--Life of John Quincy Adams, p. 248.
Benjamin Rush
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution


"The gospel of Jesus Christ prescribes the wisest rules for just conduct in every situation of life. Happy they who are enabled to obey them in all situations!"
--The Autobiography of Benjamin Rush, pp. 165-166.


"If moral precepts alone could have reformed mankind, the mission of the Son of God into all the world would have been unnecessary.


The perfect morality of the gospel rests upon the doctrine which, though often controverted has never been refuted: I mean the vicarious life and death of the Son of God."


--Essays, Literary, Moral, and Philosophical, published in 1798.
Patrick Henry
Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution


"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."
--The Trumpet Voice of Freedom: Patrick Henry of Virginia, p. iii.