Christians: about Hitler…

[metis]

In Judaism, it is said that forgiveness for wrongs done to someone can only be given by the one who had been wronged.

Which has long made much more sense to me.

 

[metis]

I remember as a child, there was an article and picture in Life Magazine that claimed to be a picture of an elderly Hitler, living in Argentina. He was born in 1889 and the picture was in the 1960's, so he would have been in his mid 70's? The Argentine ski resort of Bariloche, had been a place for retired Nazi's at that time. The picture seemed to look like an elderly Hitler, but this may have been a coincidence; common Arian features.

The Soviets found what they thought might be Hitler's burned body, so they got his dentist, and he confirmed that it was indeed Hitler.

Unless he's with Elvis, ...

 

[Alien826]

The Catholic Church warns of the final damnation of Hell due to evil actions, but it does not condemn anyone to Hell because that is God's call, not the Church.

That may be the official line of the church, but individual Catholics and priests certainly do. A real life example, someone I know was told by a Catholic (lay person) that if she voted for Hillary against Trump she would go to hell. I'm pretty sure that came straight from the pulpit. There's a fine line between "If you do that you are in danger of hell" and "You will go to hell" certainly, but Catholic priests do claim a lot of authority over what God will or will not do.

 

[Alien826]

I would say that most atheists do not attend churches as a rule but if they did then nobody would know they were atheists anyway. If they told people then it might depend what the church is, but at the place I go and atheist would be welcome as would a Hindu or person of any faith. They would not be welcome as a fellow Christian however, but as a person who might be interested in Christianity.
No pressure, just acceptance.

Interesting. It depends on so many things, I would say. Leaving aside the atheist that doesn't identify as such, there are different levels.

If he is just attending a wedding or similar, I doubt anything would be said. I did that on one occasion and even went down for the (what's it called, where you get the wafer and wine?) and received a blessing instead. They (Lutherans) were fine with it.

If he attends services with his family as a kind of social thing, probably no problem.

If he joins in all the church activities, like study groups and so on, and showed no interest in conversion I would say most churches would prefer that he didn't attend.

If he started "selling" atheism to all and sundry, I doubt any church would put up with it.

All dependent on the church of course.

 

[Alien826]

I’m investigating Christian theology.

Hitler is just an eye catching hypothetical. The most extreme example of an evil human being one can think of.

Let’s talk about a real world example of this hypothetical - Jeffery Dahmer. Jeffery Dahmer became a reformed Christian in prison. He was baptized and had weekly Bible study sessions. Is he in hell or heaven? What does Christian philosophy say?

The reason I find this question important is this. if God forgave Jefferey Dahmer for his sins and allows him through the pearly gates, do I have to agree with it? If Jeffery really is in heaven, well that leaves me with a lot to think about. If he is in hell, that shows me that forgiveness has limits, which would be enlightening.

This is interesting, because I feel Dahmer was mentally ill. I agree that according to Christian belief he could be saved (dependent on genuine repentance). My question is, what does God do with people (all of us?) who are mentally flawed in some way. Being repentant wouldn't necessarily remove Dahmer's tendency to torture and kill people. Can't have that in heaven. Do we all get "cured" of the tendency to sin?

Serious question for Christians.

 

[pearl]

That may be the official line of the church, but individual Catholics and priests certainly do. A real life example, someone I know was told by a Catholic (lay person) that if she voted for Hillary against Trump she would go to hell. I'm pretty sure that came straight from the pulpit. There's a fine line between "If you do that you are in danger of hell" and "You will go to hell" certainly, but Catholic priests do claim a lot of authority over what God will or will not do.

Better to stick with the 'official line'. As for the Hillary thing, the threat was something like 'to vote for a pro-abortion candidate was to cooperate with sin.' Which was to vote for because of her stance on abortion, not in spite of.

 

[Alien826]

But God is omniscient and living and not a force or mechanism like Karma so we cannot fool God.

According to my understanding of Karma, you can't fool it either. It would be like saying you can fool gravity.

 

[F1fan]

Christians can't judge others, that is up to God.

That doesn't stop Christians from judging others. Christians aren't supposed to, but you do anyway.

Now since it is up to God, couldn't God judge bad Christians harshly, but judge good Hindus and atheists favorably?

I hear Christians say they will be in heaven since they accept Jesus as savior. But how is that a guarantee if the Christian is a bad person?

In theory an evil person might hear the call to repentance and repent just before death.
But God is omniscient and living and not a force or mechanism like Karma so we cannot fool God.

So do you think accepting Jesus as savior is a guarantee into heaven, or is there a standard believers have to meet to pass God's judgment?

Matt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness![/quote]
If judgment is a thing, then why couldn't a moral atheist does the will of God be accepted into heaven? Is not believing a simple religious concept like "Jesus is savior" a huge crime that deserves eternal torment?

I would say that most atheists do not attend churches as a rule but if they did then nobody would know they were atheists anyway. If they told people then it might depend what the church is, but at the place I go and atheist would be welcome as would a Hindu or person of any faith. They would not be welcome as a fellow Christian however, but as a person who might be interested in Christianity.
No pressure, just acceptance.

Well that's confusing. You're going to classify peolpe as Christian or non-Christians and exclude them as not being a "fellow Christian"? You realize that is judgment. What makes self-proclaimed Christians so special as a tribe and category? Will you accept a mean Christians over a nice atheist just because you are judging people on their ideological tribe?

I suggest a better approach is to see all people equally, as children of God, and ignore what ideology they have, if any. If you want outsiders to be interested in Christianity being tribal is a flawed approach. Jesus never taught that.

Given the tens of thousands of sects under the umbrella of Christianity I suggest tribalism is a serious sickness in the dogma. One thing that turned me off from Christianity, and religious belief in general, was watching my Baptist and Catholic cousins have serious disputes over their belief, and always over the holidays which I found absurd and ironic. So what is left but the decency and humanity of any given Christian, and not the dogma? Forget the dogma, focus on humanity.

I would not blame you for being harsh against Christianity because of Christians who do not follow the teachings of Jesus.

News Flash!!! Most Christians follow paul, not Jesus.

Ghandi wondered why Christians did not do what Jesus taught.

Because being moral is hard for many people, but tribalism is very attractive and apveals to the anxiety and fear that our evolved brain naturally experiences. Christianity and other religions exploit these emotions, but they don't teach how to manage them. So many Christians will act out due to emotional impulses and lack the discipline and self-awareness to be what they are capable of being.

As I said above, it depends where you are and what "brand" of Christianity you are seeing and the type of teaching that the ministers at that Church teach. I'm sure I would be ashamed to hear it and see the way some Christians behave.

And this happens because believers lack the self-awareness and discipline to be better, more independent people. That believers seek a church and a leader is a flawed approach. The self is capable of their own moral guidance. Jesus never taught to build churches, give the leadership money. This is what the political tradition of Christianity created, and believers follow this blindly.

I apologise on behalf of them and I'm sure Jesus is trying to teach them the truth.
Not that I am anywhere near perfect however and Jesus is also trying to teach me when I am not hearing as I should.

Yet you have a history of writing all sorts of dogmatic things that you learned from institutional Christianity, not Jesus. Your valuing your "fellow Christians" and seeing outsiders as outsiders is a huge example of this. Jesus did not teach tribalism.

 

[F1fan]

It’s not as if the Creator of heaven and earth doesn’t know the difference between one who is truly sincere and repentant or simply faking it and seeking something for selfish reasons.

The question is: do Christians know the difference?

It's not faking it when Lutherans joined the Nazi party. They truly believed two ideologies, and that God was against the jews. Where is the conflict?

Anti-Semitism was fairly common in the 1930's, including the Catholics and prostestants all over Europe, and even the USA. There was even a Nazi party forming in the USA in the 1930's and Charles Lindberg was a supporter.

So being sincere is irrelevant. I suggest it is a matter of being rational. Immoral people are always sincere, they are typically irrational. When we see Christians argue for creationism, they are sincere, but their views are irrational and contrary to fact and science. And Christians hold these beliefs for selfish and misguided reasons.

So the answer is: many Christians do NOT know the difference.

God is merciful to those who are sincerely repentant. Yet, the scriptures indicate that some are so given over to evil and have hardened their hearts to the point of being depraved beyond the possibility of repentance.

Only bad epople have to repent. And many are Christians, like Hitler, and other Nazis. But what about creationists who aren't evil, but they lie and deceive without knowing it?

Hitler was an antichrist, heavily involved in the occult, demonically possessed, in complete opposition to the Creator God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob/ the God of Israel, he exalted himself as god, and murdered millions of God’s chosen people, the Jews.

I argue that any Christian who follows leadershi and dogmas that opose what Jesus taught are anti-Christs. That can be Hitler, but also your neighbor who condemns gays and hates liberals. If a person is going to commit to following Jesus they had better do some serious soul searching and work to eliminate bias and hate. They should also learn reasoning and stop spreading disinformation about science, namely climate change and evolution. These deceptions are anti-Christ as well.

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

Hello Christian, there’s a hypothetical I wanted to pose to you today.

What if Hitler didn’t kill himself - and became a repentant Christian after the war? Would he be forgiven by God?

I recall hearing in church that God’s mercy is eternal. So eternal that He sent His son to die for the sin of all mankind. If this is true, then it would have been possible for Hitler to have been forgiven, right?

It would have been possible, yes. At the time of his death however, he had an exceptionally long way to go, in order to acquire Christian forgiveness, I’d say.

Humbly
Hermit

 

[Rachel Rugelach]

In Judaism, are victims encouraged to forgive?

Yes, definitely we are encouraged to forgive. That is what the High Holy Days are all about. During this time even more than at other times of the year, we ask forgiveness from God, and we ask forgiveness from those whom we have wronged. It's especially important to ask and receive forgiveness from those whom we have wronged, as well as grant forgiveness to those who have wronged us, if we expect to receive forgiveness from God. It's good to enter the Jewish New Year with peace between oneself and God, and also peace between oneself and one's neighbors.

I agree, forgiveness can only come from the one who was hurt. I would like to be more forgiving as it seems like it's better to live without anger, but cannot help myself from being guarded/angry around many different belief systems. I try to tell myself, it's not their fault, just how they were raised. Nothing is anyone's fault, it's all everyone 's fault for not supporting/teaching/creating a better environment.

I also try to forgive wherever I am able to so, but I know that I cannot forgive by proxy. It would be wrong and presumptuous of me to believe that I can forgive someone who injured someone other than myself.

 

[metis]

That may be the official line of the church, but individual Catholics and priests certainly do. A real life example, someone I know was told by a Catholic (lay person) that if she voted for Hillary against Trump she would go to hell. I'm pretty sure that came straight from the pulpit. There's a fine line between "If you do that you are in danger of hell" and "You will go to hell" certainly, but Catholic priests do claim a lot of authority over what God will or will not do.

If a priest does that, and some have, then any responsible bishop will call them out on the carpet, which happened two years ago in our diocese. The priest apologized to the congregation the following weekend.

 

[metis]

That doesn't stop Christians from judging others. Christians aren't supposed to, but you do anyway.

In Catholicism, we are taught not to do this as it is a slight to Jesus' teachings because that's not our role.

BTW, also in Catholicism, person discernment is guaranteed us per the Catechism as far as our personal beliefs are concerned.

 

[AdamjEdgar]

even Satan has the opportunity to repent,

My understanding is that this was true only up to the point of the cross.
Satan's window of opportunity ceased at the crucifixion.

 

[Truth&Hope]

If he was truly repentant, and God would know his heart, then yes. I believe he would be forgiven.

Hello Christian, there’s a hypothetical I wanted to pose to you today.

What if Hitler didn’t kill himself - and became a repentant Christian after the war? Would he be forgiven by God?

I recall hearing in church that God’s mercy is eternal. So eternal that He sent His son to die for the sin of all mankind. If this is true, then it would have been possible for Hitler to have been forgiven, right?

 

[Brian2]

Interesting. It depends on so many things, I would say. Leaving aside the atheist that doesn't identify as such, there are different levels.

If he is just attending a wedding or similar, I doubt anything would be said. I did that on one occasion and even went down for the (what's it called, where you get the wafer and wine?) and received a blessing instead. They (Lutherans) were fine with it.

If he attends services with his family as a kind of social thing, probably no problem.

If he joins in all the church activities, like study groups and so on, and showed no interest in conversion I would say most churches would prefer that he didn't attend.

If he started "selling" atheism to all and sundry, I doubt any church would put up with it.

All dependent on the church of course.

Traditionally the bread and wine is for Christians as a remembrance and that might be where a problem is encountered.
And yes selling atheism to everyone might encounter a problem.
But everything depends on the church and the people there.

 

[Brian2]

According to my understanding of Karma, you can't fool it either. It would be like saying you can fool gravity.

Yes I guess Karma would take your motives etc into account. That Karma is pretty smart and aware for a "law".

 

[rational experiences]

The human life in civilisation.

Brother evil minded by his human choices first.

A human as a human living as the human.

Owns your own choices. Human exact. Behaviours.

Theoried a human belief of science.

Fact for non intelligent humans science never existed.... everything already did.

A human argued theory.
A sun history to earth direct or a stars history involving space laws.

Stars said men in science were vacuum voided to rock dusts in law. One way voiding owned stars earth sun light as it's dusts. No crossing over allowed thesis. Is a light fuel.

Muslim men in science believed in stars saving life yet in natural life no star ever saved life. It's burning energy in space.

So today arguing human science inevitably gets life destroyed.

Rome in law said no science no thesis no dead themes allowed as no looking back over ruled all men's science themes. Theories all wrong.

Even if star mass dusts above was mans correct advice. No theorising to destroy space laws allowed. By men with machines.

Men knew a zero was gained by heated mass removal becomes a hot zero removing two cold zeros...what mass owned and what cold space allowed mass to become.

Hitler searched for gods holy grail. Eternal space. Meaning in humans science is how to perform a nuclear reaction. Removing two bodies. Cold and fused was forever in law.

America however dropped that bomb.

Reason is many men of science agreeing all in one place living in the science community who sought it.

So no one man alone is to blame...ever.

It's always the group of scientists who destroy life as they don't own mass in science.

It's the big con by a community of human lying egotists.

If humans say when I die it's my after life. It's not human...ever.

Before life or creation is the eternal.

When you die you still own one spirit in the eternal. The eternal self has nothing to do with a human as the human and is always unconditional love. Not forgiveness...you cannot forgive evil as it's a physical act. Destruction.

Learned humans hence passed legal human laws to deal with men the likes of Hitler.

In other words if you cause mass removal you get a sin..sink hole. As proof it didn't get replaced by a non stop space energy supply.

The biggest con of a lying human thinker is your human thoughts and words didn't invent presence of anything.

Biology lives in mineralised natural water in evaporation as replaced life source direct. Not eternal in any terminology.

Minerals aren't an energetic nuclear reaction said direct to Hitler's followers of science today. No you won't be forgiven either as life's destroyers. Including your own life.

 

[InChrist]

The question is: do Christians know the difference?

It's not faking it when Lutherans joined the Nazi party. They truly believed two ideologies, and that God was against the jews. Where is the conflict?

Anti-Semitism was fairly common in the 1930's, including the Catholics and prostestants all over Europe, and even the USA. There was even a Nazi party forming in the USA in the 1930's and Charles Lindberg was a supporter.

So being sincere is irrelevant. I suggest it is a matter of being rational. Immoral people are always sincere, they are typically irrational. When we see Christians argue for creationism, they are sincere, but their views are irrational and contrary to fact and science. And Christians hold these beliefs for selfish and misguided reasons.

So the answer is: many Christians do NOT know the difference.


Only bad epople have to repent. And many are Christians, like Hitler, and other Nazis. But what about creationists who aren't evil, but they lie and deceive without knowing it?


I argue that any Christian who follows leadershi and dogmas that opose what Jesus taught are anti-Christs. That can be Hitler, but also your neighbor who condemns gays and hates liberals. If a person is going to commit to following Jesus they had better do some serious soul searching and work to eliminate bias and hate. They should also learn reasoning and stop spreading disinformation about science, namely climate change and evolution. These deceptions are anti-Christ as well.

That’s why Christians are accountable for personally reading and knowing the scriptures, rather than automatically following the hierarchy of a denomination or church. As you seem to be aware; hate is against Christ. Even when speaking about sin, Christians are to speak the truth in love and show concern and kindness, as Jesus did.

From my perspective, it’s not like God isn’t aware of the many faults of Christians, just as you seem well aware of and keep pointing out. The Bible states...

For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?
1 Peter 4:17

 

[Alien826]

Traditionally the bread and wine is for Christians as a remembrance and that might be where a problem is encountered.

If you are referring to my receiving a blessing, yes I agree. When they called people to receive the bread and wine, they said that those not entitled to receive it could receive a blessing instead, which I considered perfectly reasonable. If you are wondering why I, an atheist, would do so, my feeling was that for me it was a wish for my well being and I'd take it, with thanks.

And yes selling atheism to everyone might encounter a problem.
But everything depends on the church and the people there.

Yes.