Christians: about Hitler…

[Brian2]

That's why there's rabbit stew (and why it's deemed tref).

Before sharing your presumed Christian drivel about how we Jews and our God should forgive Hitler, perhaps you might at least give us time to properly consider forgiving the significantly Christian world that paved his way and otherwise facilitated him.

Christian drivel, I'm shocked and don't know what to say.
Surely the Jewish God wants us to forgive our enemies. Vengeance belongs to God.
God is just but God also can give mercy to whomever He will, and we are all happy to know that.
But yes the Christian world has not been nice to Jews over the years. I imagine many Christians have seen Jewish suffering as the hand of God and joined in to help God,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but those who have done that are guilty just as those who killed Jesus are guilty.
But Jews should intercede for those Christians and Jesus intercedes for us.

Isa 53:4 Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted.

Isa 53:12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,and he will divide the spoils with the strong,because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

 

[Rachel Rugelach]

I'm type O also.
The dead can't forgive their murderers true. Maybe after the resurrection there is a chance for that.

Judaism teaches that the wicked, if they have not repented, do not have a place in the-world-to-come. Hitler was unrepentant in his evilness.

 

[Brian2]

Judaism teaches that the wicked, if they have not repented, do not have a place in the-world-to-come. Hitler was unrepentant in his evilness.

If God is not merciful then there is justice and the satisfaction and closure that gives to some people.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Hello Christian, there’s a hypothetical I wanted to pose to you today.

What if Hitler didn’t kill himself - and became a repentant Christian after the war? Would he be forgiven by God?

I recall hearing in church that God’s mercy is eternal. So eternal that He sent His son to die for the sin of all mankind. If this is true, then it would have been possible for Hitler to have been forgiven, right?

Hitler was a human being and the same terms and conditions apply to him as all other human beings. I don't know why you would think he's some special case.

 

[SomeRandom]

God can forgive the worst of sinners.
Why ask Christians?
Ask a Hindu.
In Hinduism God is Hitler and has forgotten that he is God who is just having a game with this reality to alleviate the boredom and in the end will be enlightened and join back into God, along with the plants and insects and rocks who are also part of God and eventually need to go through Karma and rebirth and hopefully graduate to a higher plane of existence and unite again with Brahman (I think).
And if the universe ends before all that plays out, who cares, everything just goes back to God and I guess after a while he gets bored again and the same thing happens because he likes this game. Or something like that.
But that is all just a man made philosophy.

That’s not what Hinduism teaches at all.
I think you’ll even find some Hindus who likely think that Hitler is burning in one of the hell dimensions.

The base level idea is basically that human existence is kind of like a scale that needs to be balanced. There is “good” and there is “evil.”
When there’s too much “evil” happening, God comes down essentially to rebalance the scale and rectify things. Krishna is probably the most well known example even outside of Hindu spaces. But he is not really the first or the last. I think that’s even why Jesus is sometimes embraced in some sects. Because his sacrifice for humanity is easily “co-opted” into some schools of thought. Indeed that explanation was apparently even a way that some Hindus were converted back in the day.

This is obviously a gross oversimplification, I’m just trying to translate the concept across the paradigms as best I can
(Also I can’t speak on behalf of all Hindus. Obviously.)

 

[Brian2]

That’s not what Hinduism teaches at all.
I think you’ll even find some Hindus who likely think that Hitler is burning in one of the hell dimensions.

The base level idea is basically that human existence is kind of like a scale that needs to be balanced. There is “good” and there is “evil.”
When there’s too much “evil” happening, God comes down essentially to rebalance the scale and rectify things. Krishna is probably the most well known example even outside of Hindu spaces. But he is not really the first or the last. I think that’s even why Jesus is sometimes embraced in some sects. Because his sacrifice for humanity is easily “co-opted” into some schools of thought. Indeed that explanation was apparently even a way that some Hindus were converted back in the day.

This is obviously a gross oversimplification, I’m just trying to translate the concept across the paradigms as best I can
(Also I can’t speak on behalf of all Hindus. Obviously.)

I just gave my basic understanding and in a negative style.
Hitler I suppose is suffering some sort of Karma in Hindu thought.
Humans are always going to disagree with something and start their own schools of thought of course and I hear that even atheism is fine in part of Hinduism.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Then how do ordinary christians know if they are redeemed? What you suggest is a gamble for believers.


Is Milton's work part of the Bible now? Is he authoritative?

This whole idea is kind and compassionate, but still, is it justice? A guy is a murderer for most of his life, and then when the end nears he suddenly sees the light? Sounds self-serving. Even if sincere, the sinner had the chance to be moral sooner, but rejected those opportunities for more self-serving goals.

So Hitler repents, is saved, and goes to heaven. No punishment? Killers who get caught and convicted are sent to prison, even if they repent and show remorse for their actions.

This is another scenario where Christianity is too idealistic, and too binary. Is heaven really an option for killers even if they repent at the end? Catholics had Limbo for the souls of children who died, but they got rid of it some years ago because it was not a fan favorite by parents of dead kids. But that wasn't a bad idea if they had only used Limbo for those on the bubble.

The whole point of hell being a threat is that believers would really think it exists, and they would adjust their behavior to avoid it. But as we see some religious leaders adjused the interpretation of the Bible to include immoral acts. like executing people for witchraft, lying about science as the creationists do, evangelicals who are bigots and racists, the whole prosperity movement which is nothing more than an excuse for the sin of greed, etc. Christianity is a catastrophe of "truth" with no set morals and ethics. It is "anything goes theology". Think you're going to heaven? If you say so.

There are certainly those for whom the whole point of religion is to get into heaven in the next life, or at least to avoid hell. I would suggest that for most religious people, the primary purpose is to live better in this life, and if there is a next life, let that take care of itself.

“The mind is it’s own place, and can make a Heav’n of hell, a hell of Heav’n.”

That’s Milton btw. Of course Paradise Lost isn’t part of The Bible. Perhaps it should be. I wonder what those who come to the Bible only to scoff, would make of Milton’s often terrifying, always exhilarating majestic visions?

Perhaps the real dilemma of the modern realist, is that he can’t find a place for poetry, paradox or wonder in his clinical soul. Are you familiar with William Blake's concept of the Poetic Genius as a kind of Holy Spirit common to all cultures, but especially ancient cultures? How about Jung and his universal archetypes emerging from the collective unconscious?

“There are more things in Heaven and Earth Horatio, than are dreamed of in thy philosophy.”

That’s Shakespeare btw

 

[SomeRandom]

I just gave my basic understanding and in a negative style.
Hitler I suppose is suffering some sort of Karma in Hindu thought.
.

Indeed he is.
But you started your response with “ask a Hindu.”
My brother, I hope you don’t mind me saying, but I found your initial response a bit disrespectful. Especially since you yourself acknowledge that it was done in a negative way.

I try my best to not represent my Christian family in such a manner.
I’ve no doubt failed since I am but a flawed human. I try my best, though.

Humans are always going to disagree with something and start their own schools of thought of course and I hear that even atheism is fine in part of Hinduism.

All religious have their “disagreeing schools” if you like.
I agree
And you heard right. There are Hindu schools that fully accept atheism. Since it is first and foremost a philosophy, not a religion per se. Indeed Dharmic thought does not treat theism and atheism as totally seperate things like a lot of Abrahamic thoughts do. It’s just a consequence of a differing paradigm
Do Atheists not also deserve a school to help them understand the divine?

 

[Brian2]

Indeed he is.
But you started your response with “ask a Hindu.”
My brother, I hope you don’t mind me saying, but I found your initial response a bit disrespectful. Especially since you yourself acknowledge that it was done in a negative way.

I try my best to not represent my Christian family in such a manner.
I’ve no doubt failed since I am but a flawed human. I try my best, though.

Yes I can sound disrespectful at times. If nothing else it gets attention and I get corrected and learn something. Hinduism is open to criticism as much as Christianity on this forum I suppose, but I don't see much of it. There are probably so many sides to Hinduism that it is hard to criticise without being just plain wrong according to some of Hinduism thought, so no criticism gets through.
But seriously what I said is how I see basic Hinduism even though I know there is a lot more to it. I hope I did not offend you too much.

All religious have their “disagreeing schools” if you like.
I agree
And you heard right. There are Hindu schools that fully accept atheism. Since it is first and foremost a philosophy, not a religion per se. Indeed Dharmic thought does not treat theism and atheism as totally seperate things like a lot of Abrahamic thoughts do. It’s just a consequence of a differing paradigm
Do Atheists not also deserve a school to help them understand the divine?

If it is foremost a philosophy and not revelation then I imagine that is your thought and others see it as revelation from God.
I can picture everyone being on a faith spectrum from none to a lot and here is a place for atheists to understand the divine if they wish to learn. Most seem to want to criticise theism, but of course that is no different to me criticising Hinduism so I should not complain too much.
When it comes to atheists having a school of Hinduism that does seem to indicate however that truth would be hard to find in Hinduism. Is there a concept of "truth" and does it differ across Hinduism or do all schools lead to the one place in the end and it does not matter so much what one believes?

 

[Glaurung]

Sin deadens our ability to respond to grace and since repentance is a grace it is unlikely that someone as far gone as Hitler would have been capable of responding to any grace God would have been willing to grant him. Nonetheless, God can do what he pleases including bringing even the most murderous to repentance. But considering how Hitler died I very much doubt that happened. I doubt Hitler considered his standing before God before taking the poison.

 

[Eddi]

Hello Christian, there’s a hypothetical I wanted to pose to you today.

What if Hitler didn’t kill himself - and became a repentant Christian after the war? Would he be forgiven by God?

I recall hearing in church that God’s mercy is eternal. So eternal that He sent His son to die for the sin of all mankind. If this is true, then it would have been possible for Hitler to have been forgiven, right?

What goes for regular people doesn't go for Hitler

Hitler was not a regular person, he was that bad

I hope that God doesn't forgive him and I hope that he wouldn't even if Hitler repented, which I doubt he ever would

 

[SomeRandom]

Yes I can sound disrespectful at times. If nothing else it gets attention and I get corrected and learn something. Hinduism is open to criticism as much as Christianity on this forum I suppose, but I don't see much of it. There are probably so many sides to Hinduism that it is hard to criticise without being just plain wrong according to some of Hinduism thought, so no criticism gets through.
But seriously what I said is how I see basic Hinduism even though I know there is a lot more to it. I hope I did not offend you too much.

Nothing is above criticism, my brother. Nothing.
If it claims to be, then that’s a red flag and a half.
So called “Leaders” like hiding behind such labels and then use them to hide their abuse of folks. At least that’s the precedent set in human history. So I welcome criticism even if it seems like a bleak prospect.
Criticise everything, I say
Everything!!

If it is foremost a philosophy and not revelation then I imagine that is your thought and others see it as revelation from God.

Ehh maybe? Kind of? This is still very much a “lost in translation” kind of deal, if I’m being completely honest.
Because neither thought is actually fully accepted in any Hindu schools at all, to be completely honest with you. At least not to my knowledge

I can picture everyone being on a faith spectrum from none to a lot and here is a place for atheists to understand the divine if they wish to learn. Most seem to want to criticise theism, but of course that is no different to me criticising Hinduism so I should not complain too much.

Perhaps. But there isn’t as big of a “war” among Hindu theists and atheists as there seems to be among Abrahamic faiths vs atheists. Maybe because of the fluidity in Hinduism. I dunno
Indeed many atheists happily attend our temple during holy festivals without anyone really caring really. It’s ultimately their business after all.
How are atheists treated at churches and Synagogues though?
Just as a general rule?
Just curious

When it comes to atheists having a school of Hinduism that does seem to indicate however that truth would be hard to find in Hinduism. Is there a concept of "truth" and does it differ across Hinduism or do all schools lead to the one place in the end and it does not matter so much what one believes?

That’s your view and you’re certainly entitled to it
And I do not begrudge you for it, my brother

Though if I might say, sometimes your fellow Christians seem to hate my family for their practices and beliefs, even though we are nothing but accomodating to our Christian fellows
(Just an observation, not accusing you of anything certainly.)

Did Jesus not preach to treat others as you would have done yourself?

If I go by the treatment of certain Christians of myself and my friends and family, then I would have to be quite harsh towards you, if you follow?
And I don’t want to do that. Honestly I don’t

 

[Estro Felino]

Sin deadens our ability to respond to grace and since repentance is a grace it is unlikely that someone as far gone as Hitler would have been capable of responding to any grace God would have been willing to grant him. Nonetheless, God can do what he pleases including bringing even the most murderous to repentance. But considering how Hitler died I very much doubt that happened. I doubt Hitler considered his standing before God before taking the poison.

I cannot explain this concept but with a metaphor.
Souls are like mirrors. Mirrors that reflect God's Light.
Whenever a mirror is filled with pitch or tar, it cannot reflect God's light. That is a Light of Love, mercy, brotherhood.
I believe A.H.'s soul is soaked with the darkest and stickiest tar.

There's no Light in the afterlife for him.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Christian drivel, I'm shocked and don't know what to say.

Not nice to fib ...

 

[Rachel Rugelach]

If God is not merciful then there is justice and the satisfaction and closure that gives to some people.

Forgiveness for what Hitler and the Nazis did can never provide "justice and satisfaction and closure" to the Jewish people as a whole. More than two-thirds of Europe's Jews were murdered, and more people in addition to Jews were murdered. The loss was not merely measured in human lives, but also in the eradication of our culture and language.

I think that perhaps it brings YOU satisfaction to think that Hitler can be redeemed somehow through the forgiveness of a Jew. If you wish to think that Hitler's cruelty and crimes are forgivable, then that is your prerogative. I have provided a Jewish perspective of the subject here, without insisting that others must see things as Jews do. Please afford me the same courtesy by not preaching to me.

I respectfully suggest that you try reading The Sunflower: On the Possibilities and Limits of Forgiveness, by Holocaust survivor Simon Wiesenthal. https://www.amazon.com/Sunflower-Possibilities-Forgiveness-Expanded-Paperback/dp/0805210601

 

[pearl]

I recall hearing in church that God’s mercy is eternal. So eternal that He sent His son to die for the sin of all mankind. If this is true, then it would have been possible for Hitler to have been forgiven, right?

That's why the Church has never condemned anyone to Hell.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Hello Christian, there’s a hypothetical I wanted to pose to you today.
What if Hitler didn’t kill himself - and became a repentant Christian after the war? Would he be forgiven by God?
I recall hearing in church that God’s mercy is eternal. So eternal that He sent His son to die for the sin of all mankind. If this is true, then it would have been possible for Hitler to have been forgiven, right?

Only God can be the Judge if Hitler committed the un-forgivable sin of Matthew 12:32.
Such people (and like Satan) never repent.
Yes, Jesus died for ALL mankind but please notice the little word " if " at 1 John 1:7 .
This is why Jesus' ransom for mankind covers MANY and Not covers all - Matthew 20:28

 

[F1fan]

There are certainly those for whom the whole point of religion is to get into heaven in the next life, or at least to avoid hell. I would suggest that for most religious people, the primary purpose is to live better in this life, and if there is a next life, let that take care of itself.

How is life better with religion?

Or do you mean that some just need to believe in order to feel like life is better, even if it isn't?

“The mind is it’s own place, and can make a Heav’n of hell, a hell of Heav’n.”

That’s Milton btw. Of course Paradise Lost isn’t part of The Bible. Perhaps it should be. I wonder what those who come to the Bible only to scoff, would make of Milton’s often terrifying, always exhilarating majestic visions?

I suggest the concepts of heaven and hell are absurd and don't correlate to anything that is commonly believeed. I suggest these words are better used as metaphors for current mental states of mind. So Milton is onto something, and it isn't what is commonly believed by Christians. Christians certainly need a better interpretation of the Bible than what they operate with currently. The morte it is interpreted literally the farther from any meaning they get.

Perhaps the real dilemma of the modern realist, is that he can’t find a place for poetry, paradox or wonder in his clinical soul.

I suggest that is the fundamentalist Christian, as the more Christians interpret the Bible literally the more "realist" they are thinking.

So that is an interesting debate right there. I have suggested for decacdes that Christians change their religious beliefs to be based on more symbolic interpretation rather than literal. Of course those who are committed to being "saved" are trapped. They believe in an actual heaven abd hell, so can't really abandon that belief and adjust. Human minds want truth that are treated as fact even when they are total fabrication like a literal salvation via the sacrifice of Jesus. Let's note the Jesus' execution is why there is salvation, but few realize that he came back to life, so in essence it's a bounced check. The response is that the flesh of Jesus was sacrificed, but where in scripture is flesh ever seen as valuable?

It all works better as metaphors.

Are you familiar with William Blake's concept of the Poetic Genius as a kind of Holy Spirit common to all cultures, but especially ancient cultures? How about Jung and his universal archetypes emerging from the collective unconscious?

Theists are often very liberal is attributing human intelligence and creativity to a divine. No, humans are just clever. History is often whittled in a way that favors a certain assumptions. Nothing suggests that archetypes emerged from a collective unconscious, rather shared stories that appeal to evolved characteristics of the human brain. Humans have anxiety and are fearful, and through our capacity for abstract thought we have created scripts that help us navigate a dangerous world and our own imagination. This is why early humans created so many myths and religions, as they lacked substantive answers to the questions they had, and as many still do. The tradition of religions are passed down and new generations have inherited them. We are seeing more people reject religion as a framework for meaning as societies mature and evolve.

“There are more things in Heaven and Earth Horatio, than are dreamed of in thy philosophy.”

That’s Shakespeare btw

And the rational mind won't confuse illusions and belief as "more".

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Judaism teaches that the wicked, if they have not repented, do not have a place in the-world-to-come. Hitler was unrepentant in his evilness.

I think Judaism would go along with the old Hebrew Scriptures that inform us that the wicked are destroyed forever.
Tanach - Psalms 37:38; Psalms 92:8; Psalms 104:35; Proverbs 2:21-22

 

[F1fan]

Only God can be the Judge if Hitler committed the un-forgivable sin of Matthew 12:32.
Such people (and like Satan) never repent.
Yes, Jesus died for ALL mankind but please notice the little word " if " at 1 John 1:7 .
This is why Jesus' ransom for mankind covers MANY and Not covers all - Matthew 20:28

OK, so if a Hitler knows all this (afterall he was Catholic, and an altar boy as a child) couldn't he exploit God and the system of salvation by waiting until moments before his suicide to repent?

I see nothing ever explained in my years in church that being insincere won't work. Even if Hitler was sincere at the end, which is no doubt an emotional time and fear is very high, a person might seem and feel sincere, only because they want mercy. Such a person wants what they did not give to their victims. What did they really figure out? Is asking for repent an acknowedgement of being wrong, or just wanting something for themseves, a final gesture of greed and selishness?