Christians: am I saved? (eternal salvation)

[Kenny]

I have no idea what the "Works of Faith" are .. so definitely not saying that.

"Are you saying it is with Works that one is Saved?" - folks seem unable to explain what they mean by this word/concept -- so I have no idea what you are asking ... unless you read carefully (and it is apparent you did not) and by "Saved" mean have managed to avoid eternal torture in the Afterlife.

this is not about me saying by works "One gets into heaven" but what Jesus says- Teaches , in this particular Sermon from which the adherent invariably will try to deflect and deviate .. to bring in other parts of the Bible .. in a desperate attempt to avoid these teachings.

Not all those who cry out "Lord Lord" make it into heaven. This has nothing to do with anything I say ... but what Jesus says -

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Do you understand What Jesus is saying ? Good ..finally I found someone who can tell me what to do to be "Saved" Who then are these folks .. all who will claim to be "Saved" who don't make it .. and why don't they make it .. as obviously this is something we want to avoid.

And Second but related .. What is the Will of the Father ? = Summarize the Sermon on the Mount Matt 5-7 .. where Jesus describes the Will of the Father relating to how one gets into heaven

24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock...... 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand.

Maybe Jesus can help you to answer your homework question above .. and your question on Works .. of course you will have read the entire passage at least from 7:12 .. and thus able to tell us what God's will is .. Hint 7:12

So What I am saying .. is that this is what Jesus says gets us a good shot at making it through Judgement .. if you wish to call these things - such as the Golden Rule "Works" this is Fine by me.

Ok.. maybe that is why I am not understanding what you are trying to say since it sounds like you aren't sure either.

1) Is Jesus talking to the Jewish people or to the world?
2) How does that mesh with statement of Jesus of John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (No works mentioned) and Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast which specifically mentions "not by works".?
3) Which versus that you gave talk about daily living and which have to do with being one with God in the shalom salvation?
4) What does "not everyone who says Lord, Lord will enter into the Kingdom" have to do with anything? Notice the following verse says 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. It sounds like they had works but it didn't get them anywhere.
5) Salvation is not "not going to hell" - it is union with God and establishing His Kingdom on earth.

Does that help?

 

[Kenny]

Ahh .. this is good question ... "Why belief in "Jesus" as the savior " as oppose to belief in the Teachings of Jesus has no bearing on salvation. This question is answered in last post to you .

OK

That is one perspective... I don't necessarily agree with it.

the last paragraph of the Sermon on the Mount .. and previous .. so its clear from what Jesus says here .. and in other related places such as when the Rich man asks what he must do to get into heaven .. Jesus responds "Why do you call me Good .. there is no one Good but The Father" (and that ain't me ding ding ding .. but that is another subject and conversation)

To wit: (and I think I halfway dealt with that in my previous post). The Sermon on the Mount was directed in relation to Jewish concepts, the law and the correction of their interpretation.

Example:

27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

He expressed the difference between God's view verses man's interpretation. How many men have never lusted? And, thus, how man are adulterous?

The point of the sermon of the mount is to help one realize the need of a savior and the unrighteousness of man in his attempt to attain perfectness before the eyes of God. Therefore, when you realize how poor they were in spirit, they can then look unto God for His righteousness and participate and see His Kingdom and be perfected by the work of Jesus who fulfilled the sermon of the mount. It is a progression of helping some Jewish people to see the need for God. Thus the rich man went away sorrowful because he also didn't have the capacity to be perfect.

So that is the perspective of Salvation from the Jesus end .. and on that end it is clear .. so vicariously .. it is Clear on the Father's end as well .. as Jesus is "The Logos" after all .. his word "IS" the word of the Father .. one in the same ..

I agree... he IS The Logos. But until The Logos becomes my Rhema, there is no manifestation of the Logos in our lives.

When you arrive back in heaven.. your Earthly vacation complete - your memory restored .. you will again remember one of the few rules in heaven .. the first one being "No Praising the Most High" . After the first Trillion years of every entity God encountered doing nothing but Singing Praise and blowing smoke up the divine backside 24/7 365 days a year .. the noise got really painful .. and the edict was made.. So if you run into the HIgh Dude .. who will be most likely wearing Sandals and smoking his Favorite Pipe full of Heavenly Hash .. just be cool .. relax .. all good in the hood .. this is heaven remember .. no bad gonna come for ya.. Sataniel is the Concierge .. tell you whats happening .. there are millions of channels .. from millions of worlds ... so after some time .. you can plan your next vacation .. which brings us to another rule.. the Vacation rule .. So when you go to the Travel agency .. they gonna give you the blue pill .. gonna go to sleep .. and when wake up will be on vacation .. your soul will have entered into the fleshy abode awaiting you .. you will open your eyes .. and have the "I AM" experience .. realizing that you exist .. but you won't remember your past lives .. not directly at least .. perhaps a glimpse here and there.

I would have to disagree. I would reverse the statement. After our Heavenly vacation is complete, we will come back to earth and continue to establish His will and His Kingdom. Praise is just part of our lives. I better praise my wife.... or else (just kidding of course - but some truth )

and one more thing ... Your anthropomorphic attribution to God .. the picture you have .. is not one of an self centered A$$hole with the most petty and nasty of Human Characteristics... Is that not clear ? Crystal Clear I mean .. !?

Not at all... Jesus was very much human with all the characteristics thereof. I was made in His image and in His likeness... I have quite a view attributes that are definitely from Him at my spiritual birthing moment at age 28.

 

[meshak2]

No... the commandments that Jesus gave were two... Love God and love your neighbor.

If you really want to know what Jesus commanded or taught, read His word which is recorded in the gospels, Mathew, Mark, Luke, John, and the revelation.

Jesus taught us how to love God and love one another in detail.

 

[meshak2]

No idea what you mean .. so impossible to answer your question ?

What's your point of this thread?

Do you want to be saved in Jesus' way?

 

[Kenny]

If you really want to know what Jesus commanded or taught, read His word which is recorded in the gospels, Mathew, Mark, Luke, John, and the revelation.

Jesus taught us how to love God and love one another in detail.

yes he did... but he was closing one covenant and opening another covenant and dealt with both in his life until after the resurrection.

The problem arises when you try to take what he said about the Law of Moses and mix it when He was referencing the New Covenant fulfilling the prophetic promise to Abraham who was before the Law.

Even in the rest of what we call the NT, it talks about three areas:

1 Corinthians 10:32
Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

So even there you have to understand when the writer is talking about the Jews or the Gentiles or the church of God.

 

[meshak2]

The problem arises when you try to take what he said about the Law of Moses and mix it when He was referencing the New Covenant fulfilling the prophetic promise to Abraham who was before the Law.

Do you realize that Jesus says He did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it?

 

[Kenny]

Do you realize that Jesus says He did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it?

Absolutely. Did you understand that when you give your life to Jesus, you are no longer under the law? (It's still there but not applicable to you). That when you mix the Law Covenant with the Grace Covenant, Paul calls it spiritual adultery?

 

[Sargonski]

What's your point of this thread?

Do you want to be saved in Jesus' way?

Told you .. I have no idea what you mean by saved in Jesus way ... so how would I know whether or not such a thing is to be wanted. What is the Jesus way to be saved ?

 

[meshak2]

Told you .. I have no idea what you mean by saved in Jesus way ... so how would I know whether or not such a thing is to be wanted. What is the Jesus way to be saved ?

Because if you are not Jesus' follower and have no respect for His teachings you will not find answers from any Christian.

The Christian world is chaotic.

there are tons and tons of denominations.

the only way to find the answer is to read Jesus' teachings which I already told you about.

Jesus is the way.

So find out yourself what He teaches for yourself.

 

[meshak2]

Absolutely. Did you understand that when you give your life to Jesus, you are no longer under the law?

Jesus' followers are under Jesus' law which is His teachings and commandment.

You're deluting Jesus' word, like most mainstream Christians which is triune god worshippers.

 

[Kenny]

Jesus' followers are under Jesus' law which is His teachings and commandment.

You're deluting Jesus' word, like most mainstream Christians which is triune god worshippers.

Great statement.... no supportive documentation or evidence that refutes what I have said.

 

[meshak2]

Great statement.... no supportive documentation or evidence that refutes what I have said.

Dream on, friend.

 

[Sargonski]

Ok.. maybe that is why I am not understanding what you are trying to say since it sounds like you aren't sure either.

1) Is Jesus talking to the Jewish people or to the world?
2) How does that mesh with statement of Jesus of John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (No works mentioned) and Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast which specifically mentions "not by works".?
3) Which versus that you gave talk about daily living and which have to do with being one with God in the shalom salvation?
4) What does "not everyone who says Lord, Lord will enter into the Kingdom" have to do with anything? Notice the following verse says 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. It sounds like they had works but it didn't get them anywhere.
5) Salvation is not "not going to hell" - it is union with God and establishing His Kingdom on earth.

Does that help?

Jesus is talking to the crowd listening - what difference does it make as we know not the make-up of that crowd .. but we can assume there were some Jews ... who cares .. to the question of what Jesus Teaches about Salvation in this Sermon

2) What part of "This Sermon" do people have so much trouble comprehending .. what are you talking about John 3-16 .. in some desperate dance to avoid the teachings of Jesus in his most famous Sermon .. or bring up what Paul has to say in some mind bending attempt to escape from the teachings of Jesus in this sermon .. combined with "what-about-ism on steroids .. "What about -- something completely irrelevant" ..

4) " Sounds like they had works" --- but that didn't get them anywhere" -- is completely backwards. They had Faith but that didn't get them anywhere .. there were no works in the picture .. obviously you did not read a paragraph above .. talking about the wolves in Sheeps clothing .. how you will know them by their fruit (Their deeds in case you are having trouble) .. and by this tossed into the Fire...

On what do you account your made up backward interpretation. you have no idea what works is ? obviously ... that or some kind of disingenuous oblivion.. All the people Jesus is referring to - the one's crying out "Lord Lord" are people of Faith .. Prophecying in the name of Jesus .. is NOT Good Works .. not works at all . What are you talking about ?? or did you perhaps just speak without thinking .. in this desperate attempt to avoid the teachings of Jesus

Those listening to Jesus didn't have the Gospel of John .. nor the comforting words of Paul .. U understand ? there is no "What about John" running to other parts of scripture to avoid what Jesus says Here .. in this sermon .. which is not one line but an entire sermon on the topic .. going into significant detail on what works .. constitute as works .. which includes not doing bad things ....

Have you never read this sermon and thought about what is being said ? obviously Not .. I recommend it. What you might also consider . is the fact that the majority of Christianity .. Catholic and Orthodox . has Works in their salvation formulation.

Sola Fide did not exist in Christianity as doctrine .. until Martin Luther .. aka Wolf in Sheeps Clothing .. but that is another matter. The fact that for the first 1500 years of Christianity -- "Salvation by Faith Alone" .. did not exist in Christianity ..

"Does that help" - kind of ironic of you to bring it up Brother Ken

 

[Sargonski]

Absolutely. Did you understand that when you give your life to Jesus, you are no longer under the law? (It's still there but not applicable to you). That when you mix the Law Covenant with the Grace Covenant, Paul calls it spiritual adultery?

Don't have to give your life to Jesus to not be under the Law .. so - it is you who does not understand ? And Paul said many silly things .. but not sure that was one of them.

Jesus is not a Priest from Aaronic - Moses Tradition .. Not a Priest of YHWH .. not from the Tradition coming down from YHWH - Moses .. and so when you have a different Tradition . .. you have different laws .... however the wording in Hebrews goes.

Jesus is a Priest of the Order of MelchiZedek .. Prince of Righteousness and Justice .. Patron God of Jerusalem the City of Peace .. Prince of Peace. Different Priesthood .. different laws .. no longer required to follow the commands of the tempermental YHWH .. there is a new Boss in Town ..

 

[Kenny]

Jesus is talking to the crowd listening - what difference does it make as we know not the make-up of that crowd .. but we can assume there were some Jews ... who cares .. to the question of what Jesus Teaches about Salvation in this Sermon

It makes a whole lot of difference. We can assume the majority were Jews, not just because of location and the fact the the Pharisees, Sadducees and scribes followed him around but also because He said, " But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." It makes a difference because of the target audience, the purpose of his coming, and what he is going to speak about. He certainly isn't going to talk about how good bacon tastes.

2) What part of "This Sermon" do people have so much trouble comprehending .. what are you talking about John 3-16 .. in some desperate dance to avoid the teachings of Jesus in his most famous Sermon .. or bring up what Paul has to say in some mind bending attempt to escape from the teachings of Jesus in this sermon .. combined with "what-about-ism on steroids .. "What about -- something completely irrelevant" ..

WOW... just a wave of your hand and John 3:16 and other scriptures vanish? Convenient?

4) " Sounds like they had works" --- but that didn't get them anywhere" -- is completely backwards. They had Faith but that didn't get them anywhere .. there were no works in the picture .. obviously you did not read a paragraph above .. talking about the wolves in Sheeps clothing .. how you will know them by their fruit (Their deeds in case you are having trouble) .. and by this tossed into the Fire...

Wow... another wave of the hand and now they didn't say what they said?

On what do you account your made up backward interpretation. you have no idea what works is ? obviously ... that or some kind of disingenuous oblivion.. All the people Jesus is referring to - the one's crying out "Lord Lord" are people of Faith .. Prophecying in the name of Jesus .. is NOT Good Works .. not works at all . What are you talking about ?? or did you perhaps just speak without thinking .. in this desperate attempt to avoid the teachings of Jesus

Another "wave of the hand" and more scriptures vanish... and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Notice W-O-R-K-S

Those listening to Jesus didn't have the Gospel of John .. nor the comforting words of Paul .. U understand ? there is no "What about John" running to other parts of scripture to avoid what Jesus says Here .. in this sermon .. which is not one line but an entire sermon on the topic .. going into significant detail on what works .. constitute as works .. which includes not doing bad things ....

And another wave of the hand and the whole of the Gospel of John has vanished

Have you never read this sermon and thought about what is being said ? obviously Not .. I recommend it. What you might also consider . is the fact that the majority of Christianity .. Catholic and Orthodox . has Works in their salvation formulation.

Yes... I have a friend that even did a thesis on it. I noticed another wave of the hand and what I said about it vanished.

Sola Fide did not exist in Christianity as doctrine .. until Martin Luther .. aka Wolf in Sheeps Clothing .. but that is another matter. The fact that for the first 1500 years of Christianity -- "Salvation by Faith Alone" .. did not exist in Christianity ..

and now the Epistles of Paul have vanished.

You are amazing.

 

[Kenny]

Don't have to give your life to Jesus to not be under the Law .. so - it is you who does not understand ? And Paul said many silly things .. but not sure that was one of them.

And another wave of the hand. No wonder one can't debate this issue with you. You have gutted the NT.

Jesus is not a Priest from Aaronic - Moses Tradition .. Not a Priest of YHWH .. not from the Tradition coming down from YHWH - Moses .. and so when you have a different Tradition . .. you have different laws .... however the wording in Hebrews goes.

Hmmmmm... Jesus was NOT a priest until he resurrected and became our eternal High Priest.

Jesus is a Priest of the Order of MelchiZedek .. Prince of Righteousness and Justice .. Patron God of Jerusalem the City of Peace .. Prince of Peace. Different Priesthood .. different laws .. no longer required to follow the commands of the tempermental YHWH .. there is a new Boss in Town ..

Answered above.

Unless you fill the gutted NT with another gospel

 

[Sargonski]

It makes a whole lot of difference. We can assume the majority were Jews, not just because of location and the fact the the Pharisees, Sadducees and scribes followed him around but also because He said, " But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." It makes a difference because of the target audience, the purpose of his coming, and what he is going to speak about. He certainly isn't going to talk about how good bacon tastes.



WOW... just a wave of your hand and John 3:16 and other scriptures vanish? Convenient?



Wow... another wave of the hand and now they didn't say what they said?



Another "wave of the hand" and more scriptures vanish... and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Notice W-O-R-K-S



And another wave of the hand and the whole of the Gospel of John has vanished



Yes... I have a friend that even did a thesis on it. I noticed another wave of the hand and what I said about it vanished.

No one made John nor scripture Vanish ... except for you... so what is with this projection of your deeds onto others. You are the one running and hiding from the teachings of Jesus .. those teachigns given to all who were listening .. but one thing they didn't have is the Gospel of John .. that would not come for another 70-100 years later..

According to the Teachings of Jesus "Works" is a requirement" but you have no understanding of what "Works" means in context .. as opposed to the dictionary definition of the word .. for the meaning is "Good Works" killing someone is "works" but it is not included in the works that you do to get into heaven .. those which Jesus outlines.. Prophecying is not a Work period .. and Casting out Demons is apparently not on the list of Good works ..

You "Seriously" do not have an understanding of Works .. by any academic or expert theological standard .. "Works" are simply the actions that Jesus says are works ... things you do .. but also things to not do ... The things that Jesus states as "The Will of the Father" .. and just because you can drive out Demons .. don't mean you are getting in if you are doing a whole lot of other bad things.

What part of .. the majority of Christianity has works in the salvation formulation - is not sinking in ? You are pretending as if I am talking some wild heresy .. when it is you who is talking Heresy .. according to the Catholic and Orthodox Christians .. Sola Fide is in one of the Papal Bull's .. an anathema. Not that this is my rational but .. just saying .. your completely off the farm on this one .. unable to address what Jesus actually says .. which is not "Who So Ever Believes in Him" -- but "Who So ever Believes in his Teachings" .. and he says this directly .. already quoted to you .. last paragraph of the SOM .. Do you understand Brother Ken !

 

[Kenny]

No one made John nor scripture Vanish ... except for you... so what is with this projection of your deeds onto others. You are the one running and hiding from the teachings of Jesus .. those teachigns given to all who were listening .. but one thing they didn't have is the Gospel of John .. that would not come for another 70-100 years later..

According to the Teachings of Jesus "Works" is a requirement" but you have no understanding of what "Works" means in context .. as opposed to the dictionary definition of the word .. for the meaning is "Good Works" killing someone is "works" but it is not included in the works that you do to get into heaven .. those which Jesus outlines.. Prophecying is not a Work period .. and Casting out Demons is apparently not on the list of Good works ..

You "Seriously" do not have an understanding of Works .. by any academic or expert theological standard .. "Works" are simply the actions that Jesus says are works ... things you do .. but also things to not do ... The things that Jesus states as "The Will of the Father" .. and just because you can drive out Demons .. don't mean you are getting in if you are doing a whole lot of other bad things.

What part of .. the majority of Christianity has works in the salvation formulation - is not sinking in ? You are pretending as if I am talking some wild heresy .. when it is you who is talking Heresy .. according to the Catholic and Orthodox Christians .. Sola Fide is in one of the Papal Bull's .. an anathema. Not that this is my rational but .. just saying .. your completely off the farm on this one .. unable to address what Jesus actually says .. which is not "Who So Ever Believes in Him" -- but "Who So ever Believes in his Teachings" .. and he says this directly .. already quoted to you .. last paragraph of the SOM .. Do you understand Brother Ken !

And there you have it...

Ignoring scripture, throwing some away, context on who is talking to is irrelevant, forgetting which covenant he fulfilled and which one he started is not important, throw out the work of the cross and you have a new gospel. Throw in a few side kicks like "running and hiding" along with no rebuttal to other scriptures mentioned and we have potential doctrine of devils, seducing spirit and/or philosophies of men. IMV

I think we were warned to watch out for these things.

 

[meshak2]

What part of .. the majority of Christianity has works in the salvation formulation - is not sinking in ? You are pretending as if I am talking some wild heresy .. when it is you who is talking Heresy .. according to the Catholic and Orthodox Christians .. Sola Fide is in one of the Papal Bull's .. an anathema. Not that this is my rational but .. just saying .. your completely off the farm on this one .. unable to address what Jesus actually says .. which is not "Who So Ever Believes in Him" -- but "Who So ever Believes in his Teachings" .. and he says this directly .. already quoted to you .. last paragraph of the SOM .. Do you understand Brother Ken !

insightful.

You understand Jesus much more than mainstream Christians.

"Faith without works is dead", this simple statement of James is not so popular among mainstreamers.

Mainstream churches,AKA triune god worshippers, are popularity-based, not Jesus-centered.

that's why it is so chaotic.

they are ignoring the word of Jesus "Narrow is the way to life and a few find it."

Trin churches are humongous in the world.

 

[Sargonski]

And another wave of the hand. No wonder one can't debate this issue with you. You have gutted the NT.



Hmmmmm... Jesus was NOT a priest until he resurrected and became our eternal High Priest.



Answered above.

Unless you fill the gutted NT with another gospel

What a terrible response .. full of falsehood and fallacy .. I have not gutted the NT .. in any way shape or form ..to the contrary it is you who runs and hides from the Teachings of Jesus .. desperately bringing up other passages that have no bearing on .. and certainly do not falsify the Teachings of Jesus from the Sermon on the mount .. those from which you wish to Run.

Then you don't Answer Squat .. I did not say Jesus was a Priest prior to resurrection .. but now that you bring it up .. I am curious. Support your claim that Jesus was not a priest until after resurrection. Sounds like some more of your made up scripture .. when you are not hiding from the real stuff.

You then finish with your gutting of the NT -- Taking out the Sermon on the Mount --and trying to project your dislike of scripture on to me in some kind of twisted web of deceit and falsehood .. as is the way of those on the path opposite to the light.

Have you yet to come to grips with the Religious Fact -- the the majority of Christianity .. includes works in the Salvation formulation ? Is it all these folks who are "Gutting the Gospel" .. or is it Brother Ken who be Dirty Dancing down the dark path -- there can be only one.