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Christians and Jews Who Sanction Homosexual Sex

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Where? I must have missed it.
Good grief. My argument is that homosexuality produces more costs than benefits and is based on claims like the following (which you have yet to counter):
HIV-us-vs-other-2016.png



No, that wasn't. Is your reading comprehension that bad? That was an explanation of the errors that you are making.
Not an argument.

Here is another helpful hint for free. "Nu" is a Greek letter pronounced "noo", the word that you want to use is "nuh".
I was writing in English slang not Greek. I have already explained to you that I have no interest of skill in grammar but you either know exactly what I am saying or I clarify anytime you don't. Your just treading water again instead of posting actual arguments.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
This is getting silly on your part. Get back to the actually topic.
I am not the one that started this detour. It would have been much shorter if you had owned up to your error.

Not an argument.

You are right. It was a simple correction and an offer of assistance,

Yeah, and the statistic they gathered associated homosexuality with aids so clearly they wrote the article I quoted. Until you show me more credentials than the doctors at the CDC have your just wasting our time.

Yes, associated with, but it did not even imply caused by homosexuality. I don't need any credentials since you misinterpreted their work. This is an old tactic of yours. When you know that you are wrong you try to shift the burden of proof. Those same statistics show that it is rather strongly associated with being African-American as well. Are you going to try to claim that is associated cause of AIDS?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Good grief. My argument is that homosexuality produces more costs than benefits and is based on claims like the following (which you have yet to counter):

Oh, so you were mistaken when you claimed to do a cost/benefit analysis. I knew that I would not have missed such a post. Here is another helpful hint. To do a cost benefit analysis you need to include the benefits.

Not an argument.

Yes, once again it was a correction.. Is this your new way of admitting that you were wrong?

I was writing in English slang not Greek. I have already explained to you that I have no interest of skill in grammar but you either know exactly what I am saying or I clarify anytime you don't. Your just treading water again instead of posting actual arguments.


No, you weren't, and I even quoted your admission that you were not and explained that to you. And no, I am merely correcting. Denial only draws another correction. You have not posted anything that merits a serious argument yet.
 
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sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
As it applies to the OT verses about servitude the answer is yes. I just thought you might want to why, but maybe you don't.
My point is that you do what you accuse me of doing. Indeed, everyone does it. Weighing texts isn’t a bad thing, provided the reasons for doing so are valid.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Look back to your church history. Sola Scriptura was an invention of the Reformation. What you’re thinking of as ancient practice is called Prima scriptura. Sola scriptura is considered heretical by the RCC. It is not practiced by the other ancient branches of the church
It is not my burden to investigate. You made a claim to certain knowledge therefor it's your burden to prove. As stated this will be very hard to do, so good luck.


Modern science disagrees with you. Some people are born homosexual. Born. That means they’re naturally homosexual. That means God made them that way. Unless you also wish to make a case that God didn’t make black people black...
Science comes down on both sides about nature and nurture. However once again the proof is your burden. You can't keep telling me X is true and then suggesting it is my burden to show X is actually true. Fact is no one can possibly know whether or not people are born homosexual because it does not show up until later in life.


Your information is incorrect. However, you have yet to disclose what “homosexual acts” you’re talking about. In fact, there are no strictly homosexual acts. Which means that you simply want to deny a segment of the population access to full expression of their sexuality. That’s dehumanization. Dehumanization is violence. Dehumanization is against Jesus’ teachings.
No what I said was dangerous and destructive is factually undeniable. I was even told this by several corpsmen and two Navy doctors plus there are mountains of statistics that show what I said was true. I even posted one such CDC study.


Homosexuality has been determined to be a natural and healthful expression of human sexuality. It has its benefits, just as heterosexuality has its benefits.
That is not what those CDC statistics showed. If you will ever deal with those statistic I can supply plenty more that say the same things.


The wouldn’t have to die if people of your mind set would stop committing systemic violence in their dehumanization. IOW, homophobes are the problem, not the homosexuals.
What the heck? I have not done violence of any kind to anyone. I knew the virtue signaling and name calling would show up at some point.


I thought you discounted the OT covenants. Why are you quoting it here? You use it when it suits your agenda and you dismiss it for the same, self-serving reasons.
I did not quote it to introduce a law, I quoted it to exhibit God's condemnation of homosexuality. God's moral stance can't change over time, but how they translate into moral duties does at times. However I did say that if the NT contains references to the OT then those laws apply and the NT does reference homosexuality.

Homosexuality in the New Testament - Wikipedia
 

RedhorseWoman

Active Member
I can't care what your unnamed, so-called "highly credible scholars dispute." I'm only concerned with what today's Bibles are telling their Christian readers. And almost all of today's Bibles are telling their readers that homosexual relations---or words to that effect---are wrong; from being an abomination to being worthy of a death sentence.

.


So, today's Bibles are telling Christian readers that the opinions and prejudices of the translators are the modern-day "word of God" because THEY object to homosexuality and THEY believe that homosexuals should be sentenced to death.

Not a very convincing argument, in my opinion.
 

RedhorseWoman

Active Member
Can you explain that a little further? I’m not sure I know what you mean by “almost exclusively engaged in by heterosexuals today.”

As I previously stated, in many Middle Eastern countries, pre-marital sex is forbidden. Therefore, heterosexual men frequently engage in sexual relations with boys or young adult males--most of whom are also heterosexual.
 

RedhorseWoman

Active Member
It is not my burden to investigate. You made a claim to certain knowledge therefor it's your burden to prove. As stated this will be very hard to do, so good luck.


Science comes down on both sides about nature and nurture. However once again the proof is your burden. You can't keep telling me X is true and then suggesting it is my burden to show X is actually true. Fact is no one can possibly know whether or not people are born homosexual because it does not show up until later in life.

Not necessarily true. Many homosexuals have stated that they knew they were gay from a very young age. Even as young children, they were attracted to those of the same sex. Most realized that their attractions were not looked upon favorably, so they tried to hide what they knew to be true. It's not that being gay suddenly "showed up" later in their lives. The only thing that changed is that these people felt they no longer needed to hide their true feelings, or that they simply couldn't fake it any more.

My nephew is gay. We knew that he was gay long before he ever said anything to us. When he finally "came out" and told me that he was gay when he was in his mid-20s, it was pretty much a non-event...I had known it for a very long time.

Likewise, I remember as a young girl in the second grade being very attracted to Felix, who was in my class. Our teacher used to have us line up in two lines to go out to recess--boys in one line and girls in the other, and we were supposed to hold hands with the person in the line next to us. Oh, how I hoped that I would end up beside Felix!! I think my nephew would have wanted to be beside Felix as well.
 
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RedhorseWoman

Active Member
But it's more than just the manner in which something is stated, but the actual thing that is said. And how do you know that what's said today isn't what was believed to be the truth way back then? Way back in 1611 the King James Bible said

Leviticus 18:22
22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Leviticus 20:13
13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

1 Timothy 1:9-10
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;​


Prove it. Show me the evidence that those verses condemning sex between people of the same sex wasn't about homosexuals, but about heterosexuals who, what, wanted a little one-on-one one time fling with each other? Flings of such a minor nature that "they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." And if that's the kind of punishment god meted out to heterosexuals who happened to stray off the path into a little same-sex fornication, what do you think he thought of true homosexuals---men and women who screwed around with those of the same sex on a regular and exclusive basis?

God's Guidelines for Consequences. Section 22: (Sexual Behavior)

22 - D. sexual relations between humans of the same sex
.. ... a. incidental sex between heterosexuals of the same sex: death
b. occasional sex between heterosexuals of the same sex; torture + death
c. regular sex between heterosexuals of the same sex; torture + death + maiming of one family member
d. exclusive sex between those of the same sex; Gold Star

Nope, your amusing self-serving apologetics to save god's condemnation of homosexual sex here fails, and big time.

.
Perhaps YOU should prove that homosexuality was what was regularly being practiced back when those scriptures were written and that they had absolutely nothing to do with what we know was going on with heterosexuals engaging in sexual relations with other heterosexuals--both with young boys and with temple prostitutes. And we know from history that such things were definitely practiced and are still being practiced today in many Middle Eastern countries.

We know for a fact that many ancient cultures engaged in pederasty, but you are ignoring that and stating unequivocally that any scriptures condemning same-sex relations refer solely to homosexuality. So, prove that homosexuality (true homosexuality) was so rampant that scriptures needed to be written specifically condemning homosexuality while ignoring the heterosexual/heterosexual relations that have been so widely reported in history.
 
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RedhorseWoman

Active Member
And some people are delusional about what they need god to say. Case in point.

.

You do realize, do you not, that this is exactly what you have been doing? You ignore anything that doesn't support your prejudice and hatred of homosexuality, and insist that "God" hates homosexuals.

Oddly enough, I used to think as you do, but after working with and being friendly with several homosexuals, who were absolutely lovely people, I had to step back and re-think things. It didn't make sense to me that God would create some of his children with a same-sex sexual orientation and then hate them for it.

Homosexuality might be in just a small percentage of both humans and animals, but it is prevalent throughout the natural world. It is not a "lifestyle" nor is it a "choice." It is simply a difference, and I believe that it's about time that those who are in the majority should stop using God as an excuse to hate those who are different. THEY are not the problem--YOU are.
 
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RedhorseWoman

Active Member
I believe they salve their consciences by believing it isn't a sin. I had a thief tell me it was OK to steal if one was hungry. The abortionist say it is ok to murder children because they are just lumps of flesh. It is easy to deceive oneself to cover up sin but God is not deceived.

And you say that it is okay to hate people for being different because "God" hates them, too. It is your way to salve your conscience so that you don't have to accept the fact that you hate what you don't understand and you feel oh-so-righteous while doing it.
 

RedhorseWoman

Active Member
I believe sinners who wish to legitimize their sin will go to any lengths to get the Bible to say what they want it to say but Jesus testifies to me directly that it is a sin.


Hating others simply for being different is also a sin, and it does appear that you will go to any lengths to get the Bible to say what you want it to say so that you don't have to face the fact that you are prejudiced and bigoted and hate others for no reason other than that they are not like you.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
I am not the one that started this detour. It would have been much shorter if you had owned up to your error.
Get back to the topic please.



You are right. It was a simple correction and an offer of assistance,
Still not an argument or anything else requiring a response.



Yes, associated with, but it did not even imply caused by homosexuality. I don't need any credentials since you misinterpreted their work. This is an old tactic of yours. When you know that you are wrong you try to shift the burden of proof. Those same statistics show that it is rather strongly associated with being African-American as well. Are you going to try to claim that is associated cause of AIDS?
Yes caused by homosexual sex. That is why they did not relate it to anything else.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Oh, so you were mistaken when you claimed to do a cost/benefit analysis. I knew that I would not have missed such a post. Here is another helpful hint. To do a cost benefit analysis you need to include the benefits.
I have no idea what your talking about and this is not an argument. Someone else already posted the theoretical benefits. They do not justify hundreds of thousands of deaths not the billion in medical bills.



Yes, once again it was a correction.. Is this your new way of admitting that you were wrong?
Not an argument.




No, you weren't, and I even quoted your admission that you were not and explained that to you. And no, I am merely correcting. Denial only draws another correction. You have not posted anything that merits a serious argument yet.
If any of this was true you should not be habitually responding to me.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Get back to the topic please.

I am on topic.

Still not an argument or anything else requiring a response.

It was a correction, as is this. You do not necessarily have to respond, the proper action is to correct one's behavior.

Yes caused by homosexual sex. That is why they did not relate it to anything else.

That is as gross of an over simplification as claiming that being black causes AIDS would be. Perhaps you should think deeper about this. Also if AIDS is a problem then you should be pro-gay marriage. I should not have to explain this to you, but one of the reason that gay men have been very promiscuous in the past is because they have had no reason to make life long relationships. Those behaviors are not going to change over night. If there was the same social pressure for gay men to marry and settle down is there is for heterosexual people you will see promiscuity go down over time.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I have no idea what your talking about and this is not an argument. Someone else already posted the theoretical benefits. They do not justify hundreds of thousands of deaths not the billion in medical bills.

If you have no idea what I am talking about then you are in no position to do a cost benefit analysis.


Not an argument.

So you are admitting that you are wrong.


If any of this was true you should not be habitually responding to me.

You know it is true. I can quote where you made that admission earlier. Would you like me to do it again? And the reason that I keep responding to you is simple. You have not been able to learn from your errors.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
My point is that you do what you accuse me of doing. Indeed, everyone does it. Weighing texts isn’t a bad thing, provided the reasons for doing so are valid.
I am not comparing two texts in a vacuum and selecting the best sounding pone. I am rejecting covenants that no longer apply and accepting the rules and regulation of the covenant that does apply. The reason we say the "OLD" testament is because it isn't current. However if we simply go with whatever gratifies our preferences we have no defense of what we are doing.
 

RedhorseWoman

Active Member
1robin and I have been around this block a couple of times.
He will refuse to agree that sex has any value unless it's procreating. Nor will he see basic facts, like the vast majority of AIDS victims are heterosexuals.
Tom

And, of course, we need to consider over population, which is definitely becoming a problem in many parts of the world. Perhaps, according to 1robin's conclusions, we could state unequivocally that heterosexuality is costing society too much by exhausting the earth's resources with too much procreation.
 
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