Christians and Jews Who Sanction Homosexual Sex

[Kangaroo Feathers]

I suppose all homosexuality is male?

It tends to be the only homosexuality that "I'm not bigoted, but..." people are worried about. Further, the fixation is always on anal sex. You may draw your own conclusions as to why.

 

[sojourner]

When I talk about what God thinks, I am not claiming that I have some unique connection with God (even though the bible says I very well could have). When I say what God think I am talking about his revelations in the bible. However you have reserved the right to deny the bible whenever you disagree with it some I am not sure we share an objective standard by which to settle disagreements between us. Let me add some points of clarification.

1. My argument against homosexual acts is secular.
2. God does condemn homosexual acts but I am not making a biblical claim.
3. When I say "God thinks" I am referring to biblical revelation.
4. I regard the bible as the ultimate authority concerning morality but you believe your own preferences are the objective standard.
5. I am condemning homosexual acts not the orientation itself.

Please keep these in mind.

This isn’t a “whenever I disagree with it” kind of thing. It’s a “when worlds collide” thing. Jesus weighed texts all the time. “It is written...but I tell you...” Especially when the message of the text is dubious, or when it advocates for violence. You would dismiss texts that encourage slavery, yes?

 

[sojourner]

I strongly disagree but I am not sure how to demonstrate this

We demonstrate the fact by pointing out the fact that a group had to invent sola scriptura to make the Bible “the authority.”

I am condemning homosexual acts not the orientation however why do you think God is fine with the orientation

Because God created some of us homosexual. Does God nor approve of what God creates?

1. Homosexual acts carry costs that are not justifiable by it's benefits therefore I condemn them.
For example the 4% of us in the united states that are gay produce almost 70% of new aids cases. It
does not produce life but dang sure costs lives.
2. Heterosexual acts do have sufficient justification for it's costs.
For example to perpetuate the human race. It takes lives but also creates and improves them

1) what “homosexual acts” do you refer to? We’ve already established that anal penetration isn’t a “homosexual act.”
2) in what way do loving homosexual relationships not improve lives?

 

[sojourner]

I don't see it as an exegetical process at all, but rather an attempt to fabricate an interpretation that conforms to their needs

Well, all I can say is that the clergy I know who have engaged the debate do so based on an exegesis of the texts in question.

 

[columbus]

This isn’t a “whenever I disagree with it” kind of thing. It’s a “when worlds collide” thing. Jesus weighed texts all the time. “It is written...but I tell you...” Especially when the message of the text is dubious, or when it advocates for violence. You would dismiss texts that encourage slavery, yes?

I can't help but notice a few things from The Red Words.
Jesus's ethical message He summed up as "Love God, Love your neighbor, the rest is details." He regularly said things like "The Sabbath is made for man, not man for the Sabbath". He clearly didn't subscribe to Scriptural literalism.
Also, He had some of His harshest judgments for the narrowly legalistic Scribes and Pharisees. People who used The Law as a weapon against others.
Tom

 

[columbus]

You seem to be a bit confused by cause and effect.

We were not discussing cause and effect, we were discussing what I meant by a statement I typed.

Gay and bisexual menc are the population most affected by HIV.

At some point, years ago, 1robin mentioned his credentials in statistics. He has a degree in something related.
Somehow though, "correlation does not mean causation" seems to be lost on him.
Tom

 

[sojourner]

He'll bring up other stuff, like higher rates of domestic abuse among lesbians than straight women. And their statistically lower lifespans and higher suicide rates.
Trust me, I've known 1robin for years.

To me, the bottom line is that there are in fact higher levels of many dysfunctional behaviors among gay people. What self righteous people like 1robin refuse to see is that it isn't because they're gay. It's because of the damage done by living in a homophobic world. A world that people like him help maintain. He is the problem, not sexual orientation.
Tom

I’m glad you said that. It’s the same reason why there’s a higher percentage of blacks in jail and blacks dropping out of school, etc. the problem is the systemic dehumanization of these groups. I hope that, with the advent of marriage equality, we may see lower rates of promiscuity in the homosexual community.

 

[sojourner]

No, lets go back again.

1. Homosexuality kills people and costs billions and has nothing by which it justifies this cost.

2. Heterosexuality kills people and costs billions but is required to perpetuate the human race and sustain a traditional family unit.

One is justifiable where as the other isn't.

Yes, let’s do go back again. You claim that there’s nothing justifiable in homosexual activity. Is there justification in heterosexual activity? What are those justifications? (And please don’t give me the “procreation” argument; the world is overpopulated.)

What are the justifications for sexual activity?
Mutual care and support fo the partners
Intimacy
Benefits of cardio exercise and the cascade of sex hormones
Therapeutic benefits of human touch
Pleasure
People with active sex lives tend to live longer
There are others.

Do you suppose ANY of those do not occur in same-sex relationships?

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

One thing for sure, we don't need atheists telling us what God thinks about gay marriage.

Sometimes it's better to hear from someone who doesn't care either way than a person who needs to kiss the butt of (S)omeone.

I am however concerned however with the loss of Jews to assimilation.

Does that really make them less Jewish, though? Would an ancient Jew whine about your modern self knows nothing of what it means to be a "real" Jew? You're not wearing robes/tunics, riding donkeys, attending a 24/7 BBQ at the Temple, etc. To the ancients, you would be just as "assimilated".

It is, of course, ridiculously easy to make such recommendations to others, when you of course have no need of them yourself. Learning to walk in somebody else's shoes for a mile or two, however, might teach you something about empathy, compassion and what it might really mean to be "Christian."

I mean, I don't want sex ever. I don't even do it on myself. Fantasies are about as far as I go. However, I understand that others have other needs and as long as consent is the primary factor, I think we should just let it go. Maybe society would calm down a bit if they had more toys or porn or something. There's definitely some tension to release.

Nope. God said nothing. The writers said that God said, but that doesn’t mean God said.

And since the majority of quotes are either "Moses" or "Paul", maybe we should wonder if they protesteth too much and move on with our day.

Which makes "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman" mean what?

Why should we even take this verse seriously? It's impossible. Unless you're intersex, a man doesn't have a vagina and thus CANNOT lie with a male as one would a female. It's a stupid rule.

Why do you keep the parts that you don't think come from God?

Will I sell a lot of copies if I rewrite it? It's on the back burner in my mind.

Have you at least put together a list of the parts of the Bible you reject?

The valuing of blatant ignorance
Rape
Genocide
Misogyny
Racism

I don't know ... that covers a lot.

Hypocrisy?

So you're in favour of some form of censorship of the Bible, removing texts that offend you, a lot of nerve for an atheist.

I'm a theist, raised a Christian, and even I see that maybe the bible needs a spring cleaning.

This is a really odd argument to me. It would be like understanding that there's a lot of racism and misogyny in various classic literature by authors I like, and then stating I should remove them to preserve some false narrative.

You could also write a modern person as a framing device to comment on how messed up these people are.

Like Superbook, but without all the whitewashing.

OMG, a bible as "written" by DarkMatter's Jeffrey would be AMAZING. O_O

For example, the full sexual expression of the pedophile would harm little children. We expect that the pedophile must live a life of celibacy

Do you know the difference between consenting and nonconsenting relationships?

No, I'm not putting homosexuality on par with pedophilia.

Yes, you are.

I'm simply giving an example of a class of people whom we fully expect to be sexually unfulfilled, so let's not have this hypocricy.

It's not hypocrisy. One is a loving and consensual relationship. The other can never be. The only ONLY way to make it similar is to give full rights of consent to anyone over the age of birth and that's not going to happen.

I personally know people, both gay and straight, who are celibate, and they are happy and fulfilled.

You can be gay or straight and asexual as well. But not a lot of people are. I'm straight. I don't want sex. Other straights DO want sex. I am mature enough to know everyone has different needs. My value system only requires consent.

To further drive home the point: being celibate is a CHOICE. Being FORCED to be celibate because you are butting your nose into something that doesn't concern you is NOT.

Thus the hypocricy.

Only if children have full rights, which they don't and never will. We don't even let kids dictate their own medical care and it's THEIR bodies. We do this, in part, because their brains haven't matured enough to show enough rational capacity for legal consent. Certain mental disabilities or conditions can also strip your ability to consent away. This is why having sex with someone with a really really low IQ or someone who's drunk can net you a rape accusation. It is NOT the same thing as two loving and consenting adult human beings going at it.

the church, in this case, is supposed to bring and support the ways and Judgements of the Lord God of Israel

I live in the US. Why should anyone outside Israel care for the God of Israel? I mean, the bible goes on and on and on and on and on about how we gentiles are all evil villains bent on destroying some random group for the lulz. Where am I supposed to learn that God of Israel loves me? Shouldn't I be worshiping the Great Spirit or something since I live on the Turtle Continent?

He also claimed that no one would escape justice concerning those moral edicts.

So, Jesus is in hell? He said people who call people fools will burn in hell. He, a couple of biblical authors, and God have all called people fools. Now what? Does Jesus have the stones to put his money where his mouth is?

The poster said that Jesus had spoken to him and told him that homosexuality was a sin, and that the public sanctioning of it made what others do in the privacy of their bedrooms his business.

God talks to me too, but I was told to judge a tree by its fruit and that's where the problems started because the Abrahamics are advertising awesome fruit but there are worms everywhere.

I feel so much attention has been devoted to selling that no one was in the orchard caring for the stupid tree.

 

[sojourner]

I feel so much attention has been devoted to selling that no one was in the orchard caring for the stupid tree

This would make a fantastic signature line.

 

[Skwim]

Why should we even take this verse seriously? It's impossible. Unless you're intersex, a man doesn't have a vagina and thus CANNOT lie with a male as one would a female.

Of course not. It's in reference to men putting their penises into the butt holes of other men.

.

 

[sojourner]

Of course not. It's in reference to men putting their penises into the butt holes of other men.

.

How do you know? Were you there when it was written? Maybe they didn’t mean that at all. Maybe they meant men “spooning” with other men. Why would you automatically just go to anal penetration? It doesn’t say “anal penetration.” Did someone tell you it means “anal penetration?” Or do you just have a dirty mind? If someone told you that, why did you believe them? Are you a sheeple, just blindly following what someone else tells you? How do you know that’s what it means? Or are you just guessing? And if you’re just guessing, why would you want to call into question the morals of others, based on your dirty, guessing mind? I think you’re just rewriting the text to suit yourself, substituting “anal sex” for “spooning,” because you’re more comfortable with that concept.

 

[Skwim]

How do you know? Were you there when it was written? Maybe they didn’t mean that at all. Maybe they meant men “spooning” with other men. Why would you automatically just go to anal penetration? It doesn’t say “anal penetration.” Did someone tell you it means “anal penetration?” Or do you just have a dirty mind? If someone told you that, why did you believe them? Are you a sheeple, just blindly following what someone else tells you? How do you know that’s what it means? Or are you just guessing? And if you’re just guessing, why would you want to call into question the morals of others, based on your dirty, guessing mind? I think you’re just rewriting the text to suit yourself, substituting “anal sex” for “spooning,” because you’re more comfortable with that concept.

.​

 

[sojourner]

.​

No, I’m being serious. How do you know that’s what was meant?

 

[Skwim]

No, I’m being serious. How do you know that’s what was meant?

God told me.

And what's with this prejudice about considering anal sex requiring a dirty mind?

"Or do you just have a dirty mind?"​

Hmmm, I think thou doth protest too much. *wink* *wink*

.

 

[sojourner]

God told me.

And what's this prejudice about considering anal sex requiring a dirty mind?

"Or do you just have a dirty mind?"​

Hmmm, I think thou doth protest too much. *wink* *wink*

.

GOD told you? Well, we certainly can’t mount much of an argument against the Voice of God — especially when God is communicating the Very Important Subject of anal sex, or spooning, or whatever.

 

[Skwim]

GOD told you? Well, we certainly can’t mount much of an argument against the Voice of God — especially when God is communicating the Very Important Subject of anal sex, or spooning, or whatever.

Think he's so brutal as to decide that both of them have committed an abomination: and that they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them for simply spooning?





Come to think of it, I wouldn't doubt that he is.

.

 

[sojourner]

Think he's so brutal as to decide that both of them have committed an abomination: and that they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them for simply spooning?





Come to think of it, I wouldn't doubt that he is.

.

Apparently, God doesn’t much care for Polyester, either...

 

[Skwim]

Apparently, God doesn’t much care for Polyester, either...

Can you blame him?

.​

 

[sojourner]

Can you blame him?

.​

Jesus is just alright with me...