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Christians and Jews Who Sanction Homosexual Sex

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Now I'd like to take a moment to do some historical backtracking as to why there has been, in the past, a very exaggerated tendency to promiscuous sex in the gay community.

When I was younger, homosexuality was not only illegal in Canada, it could also prevent you, if you were suspected of it, getting a job, renting an apartment and a whole slew of other things, up to and including being excluded from your own family and community. These are huge issues, that I think some of the holier-than-thou religious heteros on this forum might give some though to. For these reasons, a whole lot of people tried mighty hard to keep their homosexuality a secret. Many went so far as to have pseudo-straight relationships, even marrying, causing a whole world of unhappiness for even more people. And I have know many of these, and been witness to the family breakdowns and pain caused to so many.

These same people, however, while living pretend "straight lives" publicly, still had to find ways to satisfy their own basic and powerful needs. And they did, though much of it was anything but pretty -- you've all heard some of them: anonymous hook-ups in public washrooms (check out a Senator or two, like Larry Craig, or many pastors like Ted Haggard), forested city park areas at night, and the lot. These things do not lead to strong, stable relationships -- quite the contrary.

But since society has started being more accepting, having come to understand that homosexuality and other orientations are natural, more and more stable relationships are forming. In Canada, we've been able to marry since 2005, and from 2006 to 2011 (the last I've got stats for) the number of same-sex couples rose 42%. That's a steep rise in just 5 years, and it continues.

So, on that basis, when the virus that causes AIDS was first really identified in the early 1980s, when hating gays was still pretty much de rigeur, and therefore such indiscriminate practices were the norm, it is little wonder at all that it became "the gay disease." But as society changes, that changes. We're not there yet, in the west, but look at Africa, where the vast majority of sufferers are heterosexual, and were infected having heterosexual sex.

Now I want it clearly understood that I would never say, based on the last sentence in the above paragraph, that heterosexual causes AIDS. I would note, however, that the Catholic Church holds a lot of sway there, and forbids the use of condoms, and therefore the sex is unsafe, even if you are not particularly promiscuous.

But @1robin might notice that sub-Saharan Africa has about 15.2% of the world's population, but 69% of the world's population living with AIDS, and they are mostly heterosexual. In that case, using 1Robin's logic, could we then rightly conclude that "African sex is too costly to be worth the benefits?" Of course not! It would be ludicrous.

Yet that is precisely what @1robin insists on doing, and does it more out of antipathy towards a sexual orientation he or she can't understand, or simply hates on religious grounds.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
With all the information and reason in the world, nobody can change the mind of a person who does not seek to know, but seeks only to find justification for what he thinks he knows.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
This is one trivial discussion but it appeared you were saying half of my replies were about myself.
No. I said "Just an observation, but perhaps it's because over half of your replies were about you? :shrug:"

In my comment, "Four out of seven = >half." The ">" symbol indicates "greater than." In other words, greater than half of your replies were about you.

Then why reply to me?
To give you something to consider. In reply to sojourner's post 687 you said: "This entire post is about me instead of homosexuality." implying that sojourner had no good reason to make the remarks he did about you. I simply showed you that he did because over half of your replies were about yourself. :) If you had wanted to stick to the issue of homosexuality you shouldn't have brought yourself into the conversation.

.
 
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1robin

Christian/Baptist
Ooh, well I guess I’ve been spanked by the Principal... you can opt to not respond to me, but you can be assured that I shall respond appropriately to whatever posts I feel deserve my commentary.
Is this going to be another post about me instead of the subject that used to be the basis for this discussion? Why do you constantly mischaracterize my mindset all the time. I don't know what your analogy is supposed to correlate with.

Well, somehow you’ve managed it. That’s what I e been trying to point out. You can’t make statements like that about someone else’s sexual expression. It’s wrong to do that. That judgment devalues that expression — especially when the judgment is rendered by a person whose own expression is in the majority.
It most certainly is not wrong to characterize a behavior that results in this amount of destruction as unjustifiable but it is wrong to demand we put up with it. I am going to have to delete your statements that have nothing to do with defending homosexuality.


You implied it. Otherwise, you would have said that, given the HIV epidemic in third world countries, heterosexual acts don’t merit the costs. Obviously, for you, there’s either something magically wrong with homosexuality, or magically right about heterosexuality, because both expressions have high HIV rates in various places.
I don't know what value homosexual sex has and I can't change any value it has. I don't even understand what that means. You keep having word fits.



No, but you claimed that it’s not worth the “cost.” That assessment is garbage and uncalled for.
It is true and it is very called for.



I’m attacking the statement and the idea behind it.
Yes, your saying I am doing evil. An evil person is one who is doing evil. This is absurd and something left leaning people rely on far too much instead of actually having rational arguments.


It is on topic.
No it is not, you have become obsessed with personal accusation and character judgements. I don't remember the last time you even attempted to defend homosexuality. Attacking my action doesn't make them invalid.


Homosexual expression is justifiable for the reasons I’ve mentioned, regardless of HIV rates.
Your statement here is about the most profound admission of defeat I could have hoped for. You might as well plant your flag on a smoking wasteland of destruction and claim the satisfaction of lust made it all worth it. Homosexuality costs countless lives and costs millions of dollars, it doesn't create lives nor make up for the medical bills, it can't be justified. Forget judging my motivations, bad analogies, virtue signaling, semantic technicalities, identity politics, making unjustified declarations and start explain why 67% of new aids cases are justified by gratifying our lust. Your not even giving me anything to argue against, not even a bad argument to contend with, merely a word fight.

  • 2% of U.S. population is gay yet it accounts for 61% of HIV infection: "Men who have sex with men [MSM] remain the group most heavily affected by new HIV infections. While the CDC estimates that MSM represent only 2 percent of the U.S. population, they accounted for the majority (61 percent; 29,300) of all new HIV infections in 2009. Young MSM (ages 13 to 29) were most severely affected, representing more than one quarter of all new HIV infections nationally (27 percent; 12,900 in 2009)." (Center for Disease Control, cdc.gov/nchhstp/newsroom/HIVIncidencePressRelease.html)
  • "A recent CDC study found that in 2008 one in five (19%) MSM in 21 major US cities were infected with HIV, and nearly half (44%) were unaware of their infection." (http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/msm/index.htm).
  • 25% of HIV infected in U.K. unaware of their infection: "Of the estimated 86,500 people living with HIV in the United Kingdom, about 25 percent are not aware they are infected, the Health Protection Agency said recently." (The Body, thebody.com/content/art59714.html)
  • " . . . homosexuals are about 50% more likely to suffer from depression and engage in substance abuse than the rest of the population, reports Health24.com . . . the risk of suicide jumped over 200% if an individual had engaged in a homosexual lifestyle . . . the lifespan of a homosexual is on average 24 years shorter than that of a heterosexual . . . While the Health 24 article suggested that homosexuals may be pushed to substance abuse and suicide because of anti-homosexual cultural and family pressures, empirical tests have shown that there is no difference in homosexual health risk depending on the level of tolerance in a particular environment. Homosexuals in the United States and Denmark--the latter of which is acknowledged to be highly tolerant of homosexuality--both die on average in their early 50's, or in their 40's if AIDS is the cause of death. The average age for all residents in either country ranges from the mid-to-upper-70s." (onenewsnow.com/Culture/Default.aspx?id=255614)
  • 73% of the psychiatrists in the American Psychiatric Association who responded to a survey by Harold I. Lief said that they thought that homosexual men are less happy than others. 70% percent said they believed that the homosexuals' problems were due more to personal conflicts than to social stigmatization. Study by Harold I. Lief, Sexual Survey Number 4: Current Thinking on Homosexuality, Medical Aspects of Human Sexuality 2 (1977), pp.110-111 (Cited in Growing Up Straight by George A. Reker)." (exodusglobalalliance.org/ishomosexualityhealthyp60.php)
  • Higher sexual molestation with homosexual parents: “A disproportionate percentage--29--percent--of the adult children of homosexual parents had been specifically subjected to sexual molestation by that homosexual parent, compared to only 0.6 percent of adult children of heterosexual parents having reported sexual relations with their parent. . . . Having a homosexual parent(s) appears to increase the risk of incest with a parent by a factor of about 50.” (P. Cameron and K. Cameron, "Homosexual Parents," Adolescence 31 (1996): 772" (exodusglobalalliance.org/ishomosexualityhealthyp60.php).
  • 8% of homosexual men had more than 1000 partners: "Bell and Weinberg reported evidence of widespread sexual compulsion among homosexual men. 83% of the homosexual men surveyed estimated they had had sex with 50 or more partners in their lifetime, 43% estimated they had sex with 500 or more partners; 28% with 1,000 or more partners. Bell and Weinberg p 308." (exodusglobalalliance.org/ishomosexualityhealthyp60.php)
  • Low rate of sexual fidelity among homosexuals. "There is an extremely low rate of sexual fidelity among homosexual men as compared to married heterosexuals. Among married females 85% reported sexual fidelity. Among married men, 75.5% reported sexual fidelity. Among homosexual males in their current relationship, 4.5% reported sexual fidelity. (Sources: Laumann, The Social Organization of Sexuality, 216; McWhirter and Mattison, The Male Couple: How Relationships Develop (1984): 252-253; Wiederman, "Extramarital Sex," 170. https://carm.org/is-homosexuality-dangerousThis is extracted from http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=IS04C02)
Is homosexuality dangerous to society? | CARM.org
 
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1robin

Christian/Baptist
Yes, and in doing so you made exceedingly clear you very deep and immovable bias, which is why I dislike conversing with you.
How much of tshi color commentary are you going to post. I don't care whether you like me ort not. Either defend homosexuality is a civil manner or give up the attempt.

I point out, one more time -- and shows your bias completely -- that you equate "homosexual sex" with "unsafe sex" This is what you said: "Of course I am not saying that the homosexual orientation causes AIDS. Again it is homosexual sex that I am condemning."
I didn't. I never even hinted that all homosexual sex is unsafe sex. There is no perfectly safe sex but for some reason homosexuals are more sexual reckless along with many other similar things but they are not all reckless.

You refuse to break those two things apart, because you do not wish to admit for a single instant that a heterosexual couple have heterosexual sex can cause the spread of AIDS -- if one of them has it, and if their sex is not safe. You would not then say "heterosexual sex causes AIDS." You would say, "among heterosexuals, unsafe sex can cause AIDS, maybe one or twice a century but hardly ever." But with homosexuals, it is not unsafe sex that causes AIDS to you, it is homosexual sex.
I do not have the time (no one does) to evaluate every single homosexual. I am forced to debate in more general terms than that. Homosexuals have higher rates of risky sex (there is no perfectly safe sex). Again they have higher rates of many similar things as well. Again, this is not a thread about heterosexuality so whatever is going on with them is irrelevant. You can't defend homosexuality by trying to indict heterosexuality. This is a clear sign of desperation.

And let me point out, in other countries, especially Africa, just about all the transmission of HIV is among heterosexuals, having heterosexual sex with other heterosexuals. So, either admit that heterosexual sex causes AIDS, or revise your spurious condemnation of homosexual sex and learn the truth -- that the problem is unsafe sex, not any particular orientation.
This also is a sign of desperation. Of course heterosexuals put up higher total numbers because over 95% of us are heterosexuals. What matters are the individual rates. Homosexuals (again among many other things) have a higher rate of spreading STDs. Also heterosexuality has benefits to justify its costs that homosexuality does not. But again, this is not a thread on heterosexuality.

That is your obsession, and since you are going to stick with it, I think it best we cease. I see no particular reason why I should stop living my personal life to its maximum potential and full satisfaction just because you and your religion don't approve. I do not believe in your religion, and I do not practice unsafe sex. In fact, since my partner was hospitalized 15 months ago, I practice none at all, but that's entirely outside the point.
I am not obsessed with this and claiming I am is just virtue signaling.

As to your use of the word "condemning," you can condemn any freaking thing you like -- Christians take a perverse pleasure in doing that, and who am I to deny your pleasures. For myself, I won't notice as I'm putting you back on ignore.
I know I can condemn what I wish to. If you want to condemn Christianity that is fine by me (in this case this is also a Christian thread) but I can't discuss both. Do you want to defend homosexuality or attack Christianity?

Here are a few more stats to ignore and fail to address.

  • 2% of U.S. population is gay yet it accounts for 61% of HIV infection: "Men who have sex with men [MSM] remain the group most heavily affected by new HIV infections. While the CDC estimates that MSM represent only 2 percent of the U.S. population, they accounted for the majority (61 percent; 29,300) of all new HIV infections in 2009. Young MSM (ages 13 to 29) were most severely affected, representing more than one quarter of all new HIV infections nationally (27 percent; 12,900 in 2009)." (Center for Disease Control, cdc.gov/nchhstp/newsroom/HIVIncidencePressRelease.html)
  • "A recent CDC study found that in 2008 one in five (19%) MSM in 21 major US cities were infected with HIV, and nearly half (44%) were unaware of their infection." (http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/msm/index.htm).
  • 25% of HIV infected in U.K. unaware of their infection: "Of the estimated 86,500 people living with HIV in the United Kingdom, about 25 percent are not aware they are infected, the Health Protection Agency said recently." (The Body, thebody.com/content/art59714.html)
  • " . . . homosexuals are about 50% more likely to suffer from depression and engage in substance abuse than the rest of the population, reports Health24.com . . . the risk of suicide jumped over 200% if an individual had engaged in a homosexual lifestyle . . . the lifespan of a homosexual is on average 24 years shorter than that of a heterosexual . . . While the Health 24 article suggested that homosexuals may be pushed to substance abuse and suicide because of anti-homosexual cultural and family pressures, empirical tests have shown that there is no difference in homosexual health risk depending on the level of tolerance in a particular environment. Homosexuals in the United States and Denmark--the latter of which is acknowledged to be highly tolerant of homosexuality--both die on average in their early 50's, or in their 40's if AIDS is the cause of death. The average age for all residents in either country ranges from the mid-to-upper-70s." (onenewsnow.com/Culture/Default.aspx?id=255614)
  • 73% of the psychiatrists in the American Psychiatric Association who responded to a survey by Harold I. Lief said that they thought that homosexual men are less happy than others. 70% percent said they believed that the homosexuals' problems were due more to personal conflicts than to social stigmatization. Study by Harold I. Lief, Sexual Survey Number 4: Current Thinking on Homosexuality, Medical Aspects of Human Sexuality 2 (1977), pp.110-111 (Cited in Growing Up Straight by George A. Reker)." (exodusglobalalliance.org/ishomosexualityhealthyp60.php)
  • Higher sexual molestation with homosexual parents: “A disproportionate percentage--29--percent--of the adult children of homosexual parents had been specifically subjected to sexual molestation by that homosexual parent, compared to only 0.6 percent of adult children of heterosexual parents having reported sexual relations with their parent. . . . Having a homosexual parent(s) appears to increase the risk of incest with a parent by a factor of about 50.” (P. Cameron and K. Cameron, "Homosexual Parents," Adolescence 31 (1996): 772" (exodusglobalalliance.org/ishomosexualityhealthyp60.php).
  • 8% of homosexual men had more than 1000 partners: "Bell and Weinberg reported evidence of widespread sexual compulsion among homosexual men. 83% of the homosexual men surveyed estimated they had had sex with 50 or more partners in their lifetime, 43% estimated they had sex with 500 or more partners; 28% with 1,000 or more partners. Bell and Weinberg p 308." (exodusglobalalliance.org/ishomosexualityhealthyp60.php)
  • Low rate of sexual fidelity among homosexuals. "There is an extremely low rate of sexual fidelity among homosexual men as compared to married heterosexuals. Among married females 85% reported sexual fidelity. Among married men, 75.5% reported sexual fidelity. Among homosexual males in their current relationship, 4.5% reported sexual fidelity. (Sources: Laumann, The Social Organization of Sexuality, 216; McWhirter and Mattison, The Male Couple: How Relationships Develop (1984): 252-253; Wiederman, "Extramarital Sex," 170. https://carm.org/is-homosexuality-dangerousThis is extracted from http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=IS04C02)
Is homosexuality dangerous to society? | CARM.org
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
It is true and it is very called for.
If you think it’s not true, then you must have some kind of value to place on homosexual expression, because it certainly has value for the people engaging in it. And you’re refuting that value. See your last statement below.

It most certainly is not wrong to characterize a behavior that results in this amount of destruction as unjustifiable but it is wrong to demand we put up with it
Who is “we” and why do these unnamed people feel as if they must “put up with” the sexual expression of others, as if that expression is, somehow worthless or “unjustified?” I provided sound reasons why it is justified, but I have yet to see you address them.

I am going to have to delete your statements that have nothing to do with defending homosexuality
I don’t believe you can delete my posts on a whim just because you don’t like them.

Yes, your saying I am doing evil. An evil person is one who is doing evil. This is absurd and something left leaning people rely on far too much instead of actually having rational arguments
not necessarily. This isn’t a personal attack or a character attack. It’s a judgment of the content of your posts.

No it is not, you have become obsessed with personal accusation and character judgements
See above.

You might as well plant your flag on a smoking wasteland of destruction and claim the satisfaction of lust made it all worth it. Homosexuality costs countless lives and costs millions of dollars, it doesn't create lives nor make up for the medical bills, it can't be justified.
Wait... “Lust?” The “satisfaction of lust?” Did you even bother to read my reasons? Do you really think that all homosexuals feel for each other is LUST???

And yes, homosexual acts do create life and happiness and fulfillment for people who express themselves in loving ways. This right here is where I claim you’re making a value judgment. You appear to “not know the value” of homosexual expression. You’ve made it pretty plain by this statement that you don’t know the value, because you don’t value it at all. It’s just a drain on the wallet, so “they” should just stop. IOW, if all you think this is is lust, why should it have any intrinsic value? This right here is how minority groups are marginalized — by not ascribing any worth to things that are important and life-giving to them.

See post #673 both for a defense of homosexual expression, and reasons why it’s more than valueless lust.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
This will probably get me kicked off the board, but I'm so sick of hearing @1robin ask "can you defend homosexuality...."

I pose the question: can you defend hurricanes, earthquakes, measles and birth defects? Can you defend genius, because without genius there'd be no nuclear weapons that killed hundreds of thousands and threaten an entire planet and cost bloody fortunes. There's absolutely no doubt that they all exist, and there's absolutely no doubt that they all come with enormous cost and not a whole lot of benefit.

And if you can't "defend" them, what will you do to make them go away? They exist, they are, they must be acknowledged and dealt with.

I am going to say it outright: @1robin is displaying an egregious hatred towards one group, and goes to great effort to paint that one group with a single brush. I would not be permitted to say "African Americans are all...." whatever. Such broad brush smears are hateful, untrue and unwarranted -- but what fun can be had dividing society by doing it, eh? So when @1robin says "homosexuals are …" this that or the other thing, he/she/it means all of us, and tars us all with the same brush.

A terrific effort to build hatred, and as ugly as sin.

The first time I ever demand that any human being "justify their existence," I truly hope that somebody will shoot me dead.

So, go ahead, bar me from the forums.
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
How much of tshi color commentary are you going to post. I don't care whether you like me ort not. Either defend homosexuality is a civil manner or give up the attempt.

I didn't. I never even hinted that all homosexual sex is unsafe sex. There is no perfectly safe sex but for some reason homosexuals are more sexual reckless along with many other similar things but they are not all reckless.

I do not have the time (no one does) to evaluate every single homosexual. I am forced to debate in more general terms than that. Homosexuals have higher rates of risky sex (there is no perfectly safe sex). Again they have higher rates of many similar things as well. Again, this is not a thread about heterosexuality so whatever is going on with them is irrelevant. You can't defend homosexuality by trying to indict heterosexuality. This is a clear sign of desperation.

This also is a sign of desperation. Of course heterosexuals put up higher total numbers because over 95% of us are heterosexuals. What matters are the individual rates. Homosexuals (again among many other things) have a higher rate of spreading STDs. Also heterosexuality has benefits to justify its costs that homosexuality does not. But again, this is not a thread on heterosexuality.

I am not obsessed with this and claiming I am is just virtue signaling.

I know I can condemn what I wish to. If you want to condemn Christianity that is fine by me (in this case this is also a Christian thread) but I can't discuss both. Do you want to defend homosexuality or attack Christianity?

Here are a few more stats to ignore and fail to address.

  • 2% of U.S. population is gay yet it accounts for 61% of HIV infection: "Men who have sex with men [MSM] remain the group most heavily affected by new HIV infections. While the CDC estimates that MSM represent only 2 percent of the U.S. population, they accounted for the majority (61 percent; 29,300) of all new HIV infections in 2009. Young MSM (ages 13 to 29) were most severely affected, representing more than one quarter of all new HIV infections nationally (27 percent; 12,900 in 2009)." (Center for Disease Control, cdc.gov/nchhstp/newsroom/HIVIncidencePressRelease.html)
  • "A recent CDC study found that in 2008 one in five (19%) MSM in 21 major US cities were infected with HIV, and nearly half (44%) were unaware of their infection." (http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/msm/index.htm).
  • 25% of HIV infected in U.K. unaware of their infection: "Of the estimated 86,500 people living with HIV in the United Kingdom, about 25 percent are not aware they are infected, the Health Protection Agency said recently." (The Body, thebody.com/content/art59714.html)
  • " . . . homosexuals are about 50% more likely to suffer from depression and engage in substance abuse than the rest of the population, reports Health24.com . . . the risk of suicide jumped over 200% if an individual had engaged in a homosexual lifestyle . . . the lifespan of a homosexual is on average 24 years shorter than that of a heterosexual . . . While the Health 24 article suggested that homosexuals may be pushed to substance abuse and suicide because of anti-homosexual cultural and family pressures, empirical tests have shown that there is no difference in homosexual health risk depending on the level of tolerance in a particular environment. Homosexuals in the United States and Denmark--the latter of which is acknowledged to be highly tolerant of homosexuality--both die on average in their early 50's, or in their 40's if AIDS is the cause of death. The average age for all residents in either country ranges from the mid-to-upper-70s." (onenewsnow.com/Culture/Default.aspx?id=255614)
  • 73% of the psychiatrists in the American Psychiatric Association who responded to a survey by Harold I. Lief said that they thought that homosexual men are less happy than others. 70% percent said they believed that the homosexuals' problems were due more to personal conflicts than to social stigmatization. Study by Harold I. Lief, Sexual Survey Number 4: Current Thinking on Homosexuality, Medical Aspects of Human Sexuality 2 (1977), pp.110-111 (Cited in Growing Up Straight by George A. Reker)." (exodusglobalalliance.org/ishomosexualityhealthyp60.php)
  • Higher sexual molestation with homosexual parents: “A disproportionate percentage--29--percent--of the adult children of homosexual parents had been specifically subjected to sexual molestation by that homosexual parent, compared to only 0.6 percent of adult children of heterosexual parents having reported sexual relations with their parent. . . . Having a homosexual parent(s) appears to increase the risk of incest with a parent by a factor of about 50.” (P. Cameron and K. Cameron, "Homosexual Parents," Adolescence 31 (1996): 772" (exodusglobalalliance.org/ishomosexualityhealthyp60.php).
  • 8% of homosexual men had more than 1000 partners: "Bell and Weinberg reported evidence of widespread sexual compulsion among homosexual men. 83% of the homosexual men surveyed estimated they had had sex with 50 or more partners in their lifetime, 43% estimated they had sex with 500 or more partners; 28% with 1,000 or more partners. Bell and Weinberg p 308." (exodusglobalalliance.org/ishomosexualityhealthyp60.php)
  • Low rate of sexual fidelity among homosexuals. "There is an extremely low rate of sexual fidelity among homosexual men as compared to married heterosexuals. Among married females 85% reported sexual fidelity. Among married men, 75.5% reported sexual fidelity. Among homosexual males in their current relationship, 4.5% reported sexual fidelity. (Sources: Laumann, The Social Organization of Sexuality, 216; McWhirter and Mattison, The Male Couple: How Relationships Develop (1984): 252-253; Wiederman, "Extramarital Sex," 170. https://carm.org/is-homosexuality-dangerousThis is extracted from http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=IS04C02)
Is homosexuality dangerous to society? | CARM.org
Carm? Please. Let's quote the Nazis to learn about Jews next.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
This will probably get me kicked off the board, but I'm so sick of hearing @1robin ask "can you defend homosexuality...."

I pose the question: can you defend hurricanes, earthquakes, measles and birth defects? Can you defend genius, because without genius there'd be no nuclear weapons that killed hundreds of thousands and threaten an entire planet and cost bloody fortunes. There's absolutely no doubt that they all exist, and there's absolutely no doubt that they all come with enormous cost and not a whole lot of benefit.

And if you can't "defend" them, what will you do to make them go away? They exist, they are, they must be acknowledged and dealt with.

I am going to say it outright: @1robin is displaying an egregious hatred towards one group, and goes to great effort to paint that one group with a single brush. I would not be permitted to say "African Americans are all...." whatever. Such broad brush smears are hateful, untrue and unwarranted -- but what fun can be had dividing society by doing it, eh? So when @1robin says "homosexuals are …" this that or the other thing, he/she/it means all of us, and tars us all with the same brush.

A terrific effort to build hatred, and as ugly as sin.

The first time I ever demand that any human being "justify their existence," I truly hope that somebody will shoot me dead.

So, go ahead, bar me from the forums.
You said it better than I did. Demanding that people justify their existence — or their sexual self-expression — is egregious.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Now I'd like to take a moment to do some historical backtracking as to why there has been, in the past, a very exaggerated tendency to promiscuous sex in the gay community.

When I was younger, homosexuality was not only illegal in Canada, it could also prevent you, if you were suspected of it, getting a job, renting an apartment and a whole slew of other things, up to and including being excluded from your own family and community. These are huge issues, that I think some of the holier-than-thou religious heteros on this forum might give some though to. For these reasons, a whole lot of people tried mighty hard to keep their homosexuality a secret. Many went so far as to have pseudo-straight relationships, even marrying, causing a whole world of unhappiness for even more people. And I have know many of these, and been witness to the family breakdowns and pain caused to so many.

These same people, however, while living pretend "straight lives" publicly, still had to find ways to satisfy their own basic and powerful needs. And they did, though much of it was anything but pretty -- you've all heard some of them: anonymous hook-ups in public washrooms (check out a Senator or two, like Larry Craig, or many pastors like Ted Haggard), forested city park areas at night, and the lot. These things do not lead to strong, stable relationships -- quite the contrary.

But since society has started being more accepting, having come to understand that homosexuality and other orientations are natural, more and more stable relationships are forming. In Canada, we've been able to marry since 2005, and from 2006 to 2011 (the last I've got stats for) the number of same-sex couples rose 42%. That's a steep rise in just 5 years, and it continues.

So, on that basis, when the virus that causes AIDS was first really identified in the early 1980s, when hating gays was still pretty much de rigeur, and therefore such indiscriminate practices were the norm, it is little wonder at all that it became "the gay disease." But as society changes, that changes. We're not there yet, in the west, but look at Africa, where the vast majority of sufferers are heterosexual, and were infected having heterosexual sex.

Now I want it clearly understood that I would never say, based on the last sentence in the above paragraph, that heterosexual causes AIDS. I would note, however, that the Catholic Church holds a lot of sway there, and forbids the use of condoms, and therefore the sex is unsafe, even if you are not particularly promiscuous.

But @1robin might notice that sub-Saharan Africa has about 15.2% of the world's population, but 69% of the world's population living with AIDS, and they are mostly heterosexual. In that case, using 1Robin's logic, could we then rightly conclude that "African sex is too costly to be worth the benefits?" Of course not! It would be ludicrous.

Yet that is precisely what @1robin insists on doing, and does it more out of antipathy towards a sexual orientation he or she can't understand, or simply hates on religious grounds.
Since you only mentioned me I do not know whether I am supposed to reply, reply to some parts and not to others, or not to reply at all. Why have you started to mention me all the time instead of quoting me.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
No. I said "Just an observation, but perhaps it's because over half of your replies were about you? :shrug:"
I can't believe we are still talking about this. Sounds like Clinton's what the definition of is - is. It wasn't the proportion of the post I was confused about it was whether you were referring to a single post of to my posts in general.

In my comment, "Four out of seven = >half." The ">" symbol indicates "greater than." In other words, greater than half of your replies were about you.
The percentage I snot what I was asking about. You said my reply(s) which made me think you were talking about all my posts in general. This doesn't really matter, can we move on?


To give you something to consider. In reply to sojourner's post 687 you said: "This entire post is about me instead of homosexuality." implying that sojourner had no good reason to make his remarks about you. I simply showed you that he did because over half of your replies were about yourself. :) If you had wanted to stick to the issue of homosexuality you shouldn't have been brought yourself into the conversation.

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I did not have a problem with the use of pro-nouns. My problem was that instead of a defense of homosexuality I got nothing but personal criticism. Debates in this context are supposed to be about a subject not a person.

Is there really any confusion remaining? Even if there is does it really matter. Can we get back to the subject at hand? I want to defend my argument not my person.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
If you think it’s not true, then you must have some kind of value to place on homosexual expression, because it certainly has value for the people engaging in it. And you’re refuting that value. See your last statement below.
I said I thought my argument was true not that it wasn't. Are you referring to the truth of something else. I don't assign value nor do I wish to deny the value of homosexuality, I would rather talk about it in terms of whether it's costs are justified by its merits. Again, this does not even make sense to me and I am getting real tired of this off-ramp to nowhere.


Who is “we” and why do these unnamed people feel as if they must “put up with” the sexual expression of others, as if that expression is, somehow worthless or “unjustified?” I provided sound reasons why it is justified, but I have yet to see you address them.
Those of us who do not agree with your world view. You did not supply any reasons to think the merits you came you with justify the costs. You merely claimed they did. If it costs lives but does not potentially create lives there is no equity.


I don’t believe you can delete my posts on a whim just because you don’t like them.
Not your posts in their entirety just the parts of them that do not pertain to the defense of homosexuality. IOW the color commentary.

not necessarily. This isn’t a personal attack or a character attack. It’s a judgment of the content of your posts.
Telling me I am doing evil is about as personal as attacks can be.


Wait... “Lust?” The “satisfaction of lust?” Did you even bother to read my reasons? Do you really think that all homosexuals feel for each other is LUST???
Lust, sexual desire. People have sex because they desire sex. We are talking about homosexual sex, remember?

And yes, homosexual acts do create life and happiness and fulfillment for people who express themselves in loving ways. This right here is where I claim you’re making a value judgment. You appear to “not know the value” of homosexual expression. You’ve made it pretty plain by this statement that you don’t know the value, because you don’t value it at all. It’s just a drain on the wallet, so “they” should just stop. IOW, if all you think this is is lust, why should it have any intrinsic value? This right here is how minority groups are marginalized — by not ascribing any worth to things that are important and life-giving to them.
Show me the child that was created by homosexual sex. The absurdity of this conversation is appalling. Of course gratifying our desires produces happiness but morality is composed of restricting actions that cause happiness in many cases. I should not murder someone even though killing them may produce a kind of happiness. You can't equate morality with human happiness nor human flourishing. Yes I place no value of any kind on a behavior. I can condemn or approve of actions regardless of what ever you mean by value. I don't even understand what your talking about. Claiming homosexuality has value means it has some objective worth.. If so then you should be able to tell me exactly what its value is. Good luck, I don't even know what units of measurement you can use.

See post #673 both for a defense of homosexual expression, and reasons why it’s more than valueless lust.
This is funny. You deny my right to ignore your irrelevant personal commentary about myself and then you ignore all the relevant statistic I provided. Why am I going to go back and review a post you made a while ago when you won't even respond to my current post?

I can post a cost for every merit you post concerning homosexuality and I can even post costs that you have no way to balance with any merit. I have scored several unanswered goals.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I want to defend my argument not my person
There is no defense for this:

You might as well plant your flag on a smoking wasteland of destruction and claim the satisfaction of lust made it all worth it. Homosexuality costs countless lives and costs millions of dollars, it doesn't create lives nor make up for the medical bills, it can't be justified
None.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I don't assign value nor do I wish to deny the value of homosexuality, I would rather talk about it in terms of whether it's costs are justified by its merits
“Cost vs. merit” IS assigning a value.

Those of us who do not agree with your world view
What world view is that? That homosexuals shouldn’t be allowed to have sex and express themselves?

You did not supply any reasons to think the merits you came you with justify the costs. You merely claimed they did
The medical community and Christian denominations seem to feel that the merits are adequate justification in and of themselves.

If it costs lives but does not potentially create lives there is no equity
Living longer is “potentially creating life.”

Not your posts in their entirety just the parts of them that do not pertain to the defense of homosexuality. IOW the color commentary
Fine. I’ll just add ‘em back in. You can’t censor me when I’m not breaking forum rules.

Telling me am doing evil is about as personal as attacks can be.
...but telling homosexuals that their self-expression is too costly to exist isn’t a personal attack against them...

Lust, sexual desire. People have se because they desire sex
People also have sex to give and receive comfort, to express love, to achieve intimacy, to be physically close and spiritually connected to their mate. And those things are eminently life-producing.

Show me the child that was created by homosexual sex
Show me a life that was sustained and made better by sex.
Claiming homosexuality has value means it has some objective worth
‘K. Claiming human beings have value means that they have some objective worth. What is that objective worth? What price will you put on them? Or are human beings worthless and without value?

Not all value is quantifiable. Does God have value? Or is God worthless?

I can post a cost for every merit you post concerning homosexuality and I can even post costs that you have no way to balance with any merit. If it is possible to keep score here I would be far ahead
So you’re admitting that you DO have an idea of the value of the merits. Otherwise you’d be unable to “keep score.”

Now we’re getting to the real meat of your argument. Your argument isn’t as clean and antiseptic as an objective “cost analysis” would make it appear. Your argument places 0 value on homosexuality and, by extension, those who ARE homosexual. 0 value = no human worth. I’d say that’s fairly dehumanizing people who aren’t heterosexual.
 
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Skwim

Veteran Member
Here are a few more stats to ignore and fail to address.
You pasted the following "facts" from your CARM link: Is homosexuality dangerous to society? | CARM.org

Unfortunately, they're pretty worthless. Not only does the CARM article have too many invalid references, reference that can't be checked, but at least one is outdated, and another contains a concocted claim.

  • 2% of U.S. population is gay yet it accounts for 61% of HIV infection: "Men who have sex with men [MSM] remain the group most heavily affected by new HIV infections. While the CDC estimates that MSM represent only 2 percent of the U.S. population, they accounted for the majority (61 percent; 29,300) of all new HIV infections in 2009. Young MSM (ages 13 to 29) were most severely affected, representing more than one quarter of all new HIV infections nationally (27 percent; 12,900 in 2009)." (Center for Disease Control, cdc.gov/nchhstp/newsroom/HIVIncidencePressRelease.html)
Bogus source. These are the words of Pastor James Langston in his book "The Wages Of Sin," not the CDC. Information he attributes to the now defunct web site (Center for Disease Control, cdc.gov/nchhstp/newsroom/HIVIncidencePressRelease.html).


Bogus ink


  • " . . . homosexuals are about 50% more likely to suffer from depression and engage in substance abuse than the rest of the population, reports Health24.com . . . the risk of suicide jumped over 200% if an individual had engaged in a homosexual lifestyle . . . the lifespan of a homosexual is on average 24 years shorter than that of a heterosexual . . . While the Health 24 article suggested that homosexuals may be pushed to substance abuse and suicide because of anti-homosexual cultural and family pressures, empirical tests have shown that there is no difference in homosexual health risk depending on the level of tolerance in a particular environment. Homosexuals in the United States and Denmark--the latter of which is acknowledged to be highly tolerant of homosexuality--both die on average in their early 50's, or in their 40's if AIDS is the cause of death. The average age for all residents in either country ranges from the mid-to-upper-70s." (onenewsnow.com/Culture/Default.aspx?id=255614)
Another bogus link.


  • Higher sexual molestation with homosexual parents: “A disproportionate percentage--29--percent--of the adult children of homosexual parents had been specifically subjected to sexual molestation by that homosexual parent, compared to only 0.6 percent of adult children of heterosexual parents having reported sexual relations with their parent. . . . Having a homosexual parent(s) appears to increase the risk of incest with a parent by a factor of about 50.” (P. Cameron and K. Cameron, "Homosexual Parents," Adolescence 31 (1996): 772" (exodusglobalalliance.org/ishomosexualityhealthyp60.php).
Figures in social-sexual issues 22 years old are no longer considered reliable.


  • 8% of homosexual men had more than 1000 partners:
    "Bell and Weinberg reported evidence of widespread sexual compulsion among homosexual men. 83% of the homosexual men surveyed estimated they had had sex with 50 or more partners in their lifetime, 43% estimated they had sex with 500 or more partners; 28% with 1,000 or more partners. Bell and Weinberg p 308." (exodusglobalalliance.org/ishomosexualityhealthyp60.php)
Your linked source, exodusglobalalliance.org, says no such thing, nor is the figure found on the internet.


  • Low rate of sexual fidelity among homosexuals. "There is an extremely low rate of sexual fidelity among homosexual men as compared to married heterosexuals. Among married females 85% reported sexual fidelity. Among married men, 75.5% reported sexual fidelity. Among homosexual males in their current relationship, 4.5% reported sexual fidelity. (Sources: Laumann, The Social Organization of Sexuality, 216; McWhirter and Mattison, The Male Couple: How Relationships Develop (1984): 252-253; Wiederman, "Extramarital Sex," 170. https://carm.org/is-homosexuality-dangerousThis is extracted from http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=IS04C02)
Another bogus link


Thing is, if information can't be checked, in these cases its reference link is bogus, the information is worthless.

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Skwim

Veteran Member
I can't believe we are still talking about this. Sounds like Clinton's what the definition of is - is. It wasn't the proportion of the post I was confused about it was whether you were referring to a single post of to my posts in general.
If you didn't have a reading comprehension problem it would have never arose.


The percentage I snot what I was asking about. You said my reply(s) which made me think you were talking about all my posts in general. This doesn't really matter, can we move on?
Certainly. Don't reply to this post.


I did not have a problem with the use of pro-nouns. My problem was that instead of a defense of homosexuality I got nothing but personal criticism. Debates in this context are supposed to be about a subject not a person.
Then for future reference I suggest that you stop talking about yourself.

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1robin

Christian/Baptist
This will probably get me kicked off the board, but I'm so sick of hearing @1robin ask "can you defend homosexuality...."

I pose the question: can you defend hurricanes, earthquakes, measles and birth defects? Can you defend genius, because without genius there'd be no nuclear weapons that killed hundreds of thousands and threaten an entire planet and cost bloody fortunes. There's absolutely no doubt that they all exist, and there's absolutely no doubt that they all come with enormous cost and not a whole lot of benefit.

And if you can't "defend" them, what will you do to make them go away? They exist, they are, they must be acknowledged and dealt with.

I am going to say it outright: @1robin is displaying an egregious hatred towards one group, and goes to great effort to paint that one group with a single brush. I would not be permitted to say "African Americans are all...." whatever. Such broad brush smears are hateful, untrue and unwarranted -- but what fun can be had dividing society by doing it, eh? So when @1robin says "homosexuals are …" this that or the other thing, he/she/it means all of us, and tars us all with the same brush.

A terrific effort to build hatred, and as ugly as sin.

The first time I ever demand that any human being "justify their existence," I truly hope that somebody will shoot me dead.

So, go ahead, bar me from the forums.
Ok, that's it. You do not have the self discipline to carry on a debate in even an online format. Maybe I should report you but I have never reported anyone for anything and I have enough discipline not to let things get too person so you don't have to worry about me reporting you but we are done discussing anything in this thread. Take a nap or something.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Carm? Please. Let's quote the Nazis to learn about Jews next.
You can't deny those claims by hating the site I found them at. You need to show that their wrong based on their own merits instead of your personal preferences. Every claim came with its own source.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
What? There is no defense to wanting the debate to be about the defense of homosexuality instead of personal jabs?
This is obtuse. You know what I meant.

There is no defense for your argument; its premise is flawed, as has been pointed out numerous times.
 
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