Christians be honest with yourselves. (Christians only)

[Glaurung]

Murder is a legal term. It means "unlawful killing".

It's also a vernacular term which is used to mean unjustified killing legal or not. And I am confident that you know this perfectly well. Just as I am confident that when someone tells you that they have a theory about something, you know perfectly well that they do not mean a scientific theory.

If it became legal for white people to kill minorities at whim (such as, in feudal Japan, where a samurai had the right to kill any peasant at whim if he felt he had been slighted) I don't think you'd use your current point claim that such killings aren't nonetheless murderous.

Nor would you say the same thing about raping your wife. Because after all, not too long ago a wife had no legal grounds to refuse consent. It was legally impossible to rape your spouse. Do you see the banality of such arguments? What the secular law permits has no barring whatsoever on what is moral.

 

[Forever_Catholic]

I know from God that there is a place of punishment that is not Hell. Hell is controlled by Satan.

It's Purgatory, where saved souls are purified before entering heaven.

 

[Forever_Catholic]

Moses didn't write the first five books of the bible. Moses was likely a literary character and not a historic figure.

Can you back that argument up with anything?

 

[Johnlove]

It's Purgatory, where saved souls are purified before entering heaven.

That is a Roman Catholic Church teaching, but it has no scriptural confirmation.

Paul said a sinner will never enter the kingdom of God.


(1 Corinthians 6:9-19) “You know perfectly well that people who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God: people of immoral lives, idolaters, adulterers, catamites, sodomites, thieves, usurers, drunkards, slanders and swindlers will never inherit the kingdom of God.”


Also Jesus said only those who live the will of the Father in Heaven will come with him to his kingdom. God’s will it for us to obey his commandments, and that includes not sinning.

(Matthew 7:21) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”

 

[Forever_Catholic]

That is a Roman Catholic Church teaching, but it has no scriptural confirmation.

Oh yes it does. I'll post some of it tomorrow. I have to go to bed now for an early mass tomorrow. Meanwhile, I'll just mention that the understanding of Purgatory did not originate as a Catholic teaching because it predates Christianity. The Jews knew about purification of the soul after physical death and the purifying fire of Sheol.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Yes people need to believe something to be able to continue to accept blindness.

He's dead, Jim.

 

[Johnlove]

Oh yes it does. I'll post some of it tomorrow. I have to go to bed now for an early mass tomorrow. Meanwhile, I'll just mention that the understanding of Purgatory did not originate as a Catholic teaching because it predates Christianity. The Jews knew about purification of the soul after physical death and the purifying fire of Sheol.

If punishment made people righteous, then it would also work in our prison system.


God wants righteous people to share his kingdom, and not someone who has come out of some punishment

 

[angellous_evangellous]

If punishment made people righteous, then it would also work in our prison system.


God wants righteous people to share his kingdom, and not someone who has come out of some punishment

Your lack of understanding is impressive.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

If I am not right then Scripture is wrong.

So you don't fear God. Not a good choice considering your affinity for Scripture.

I hope you don't know that you're highjacking Scripture to serve your own purposes --- you most certainly can be wrong!

 

[Johnlove]

So you don't fear God. Not a good choice considering your affinity for Scripture.

I hope you don't know that you're highjacking Scripture to serve your own purposes --- you most certainly can be wrong!

You start your post with a straw man argument, and then accuse me of having an affinity with scripture.


Affinity: “a natural liking for or attraction to a person, thing, idea”


You seem to believe the liking the written Word of God is a negative?


Then you accuse me of hijacking scripture to serve my own purpose?


If that were true then you would be able to show me just how I was doing that. You would have scripture that says I am wrong.


But all you seem to have is an opinion that has been shaped by those who are leaders of your church.

 

[sojourner]

If I am not right then Scripture is wrong.

Many times, scripture is understood wrong, if read wrong, or if read out of context. None of the early church Fathers thought that followers were without sin. None.

 

[sojourner]

You would have scripture that says I am wrong.

Sola Scriptura was never a consideration for Jesus, or for the early church for the first 1500 years of its existence.

But all you seem to have is an opinion that has been shaped by those who are leaders of your church.

Oh yes. The old, "I know more than thousands of years of Tradition, theology, and church leadership" schtick. Nothing more than a thinly-veiled ad hominem, based upon special pleading fallacy.

 

[sojourner]

John says a Child of God can’t sin. Jesus called us to be perfect as the Father in Heaven is perfect. If Jesus told us to be perfect, then you know he gave us a way to be perfect.

(1 John 3:9-10) “No one who is a child of God sins because God's seed remains in him. Nor can he sin, because he is a child of God. This is what distinguishes the children of God from the children of the devil: whoever does not live uprightly and does not love his brother is not from God.”


(1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”

Thanks! A great example of cherry-picking things out of context and basing a whole theology on these particular verses, without taking the rest of the Tradition under consideration.

 

[sojourner]

Can you back that argument up with anything?

Don't need to. Anyone with a brain stem who has undertaken serious biblical studies knows this is common knowledge. If Moses existed, he could not have written the Pentateuch, because the Pentateuch wasn't written until only about 650 years B.C.E. Moses most likely would have been illiterate, and he couldn't have written about his own death. Furthermore, there's ample evidence that just Genesis had four different authors.

 

[Johnlove]

Many times, scripture is understood wrong, if read wrong, or if read out of context. None of the early church Fathers thought that followers were without sin. None.

You are wrong, the Early Christians knew that he or she would never deliberately commit a sin.


By the way it was a Roman Catholic priest friend of me that first told me that fact.

 

[Johnlove]

Thanks! A great example of cherry-picking things out of context and basing a whole theology on these particular verses, without taking the rest of the Tradition under consideration.

Again you have nothing to dispute the scripture quoted by me. All you can do is say I don’t understand. Yet you can’t show me anything that says I am wrong.

 

[Johnlove]

Sola Scriptura was never a consideration for Jesus, or for the early church for the first 1500 years of its existence.

Oh yes. The old, "I know more than thousands of years of Tradition, theology, and church leadership" schtick. Nothing more than a thinly-veiled ad hominem, based upon special pleading fallacy.

The Roman Catholic Church stopped being led by the Holy Spirit when it first allowed its leaders to let people fight in Constantine the Great’s Army.


You in order to believe that the Roman Catholic is not condemned have to ignore all the teaching that go against what the apostles taught.


(Galatians 1:7-8) “Not that there can be more than one Good News; it is merely that some troublemakers among you want to change the Good News of Christ; and let me warn you that if anyone preaches a version of the Good News different from the one you have already heard, he is to be condemned.”

(Matthew 5:44) “But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;”


(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”


(Matthew 6:19) “Do not store up treasures for yourselves on earth, where moths and woodworms destroy them and thieves can break in and steal.”


(1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”


(Luke 14:33) “So in the same way, none of you can be my disciple unless he gives up all his possessions.”


(Matthew 5:48) “Even the pagans do as much, do they not? You must therefore be perfect just as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

 

[sojourner]

You are wrong, the Early Christians knew that he or she would never deliberately commit a sin.

that doesn't refute what I posted at all. "Knowing that [they] would never deliberately ... sin" admits that sin existed.

By the way it was a Roman Catholic priest friend of me that first told me that fact.

Roman Catholic priests have been known to deliberately diddle little boys.

 

[Johnlove]

that doesn't refute what I posted at all. "Knowing that [they] would never deliberately ... sin" admits that sin existed.

.

Sin does not exist in a Child of God. Scripture tells us that. But you seem to believe scripture is wrong. I believe in the written Word of God.


(1 John 3:9-10) “No one who has been begotten by God sins; because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God. In this way we distinguish the children of God from the children of the devil: anybody not living a holy life and not loving his brother is no child of God’s.”


(1 John 3: 5 - 6) “Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him.”


If one sin he or she has never seen nor knows God!



(1 John 3:9) “No one who has been begotten by God sins; because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”



(1 Corinthians 6:9-19) “You know perfectly well that people who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God: people of immoral lives, idolaters, adulterers, catamites, sodomites, thieves, usurers, drunkards, slanders and swindlers will never inherit the kingdom of God.”


A sinner will never get to Heaven!

 

[angellous_evangellous]

A sinner will never get to Heaven!

You think that you're not a sinner?