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Christian's Birthdays and Other Holidays

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
I always wonder if JW's realize there is blood in milk :devil:

I have been researching this topic recently.

The Truth About Milk - Read

There are certainly grounds for scrutiny, but then again, "the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one" according to 1 John 5:19.
It is not hard to see.

Have you watched the documentary "Food Inc"? Very enlightening.

I believe that this sort of thing is just the tip of the iceberg. God is about to lift the lid on the whole shabby deal and reveal exactly what people have been putting their trust in for decades.
"...Jehovah’s day will come as a thief.....and earth and the works in it will be discovered." (2 Pet 3:10)

Food is just one area where interference has caused disease and death whilst pretending to be healthful and beneficial for one's wellbeing.

Food is polluted, water is polluted and air is polluted.....it is satan's world and everything in it reflects and supports his agenda.

I will do some more research and act according to my conscience. Here's the other side of the story.....

http://cawelfare.wordpress.com/2012/08/23/myth-buster-theres-pus-in-the-milk-no-not-really/

I long for the day when God' s rulership will be the only one in existence. (Matt 6:9, 10) :sad:
 
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Sees

Dragonslayer
You can be vegan like me - almond milk and coconut milk :D it's amazing how much dropping dairy, or at least severely restricting it, can help health.

I have been researching this topic recently.

The Truth About Milk - Read

There are certainly grounds for scrutiny, but then again, "the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one" according to 1 John 5:19.
It is not hard to see.

Have you watched the documentary "Food Inc"? Very enlightening.

I believe that this sort of thing is just the tip of the iceberg. God is about to lift the lid on the whole shabby deal and reveal exactly what people have been putting their trust in for decades.
"...Jehovah’s day will come as a thief.....and earth and the works in it will be discovered." (2 Pet 3:10)

Food is just one area where interference has caused disease and death whilst pretending to be healthful and beneficial for one's wellbeing.

Food is polluted, water is polluted and air is polluted.....it is satan's world and everything in it reflects and supports his agenda.

I will do some more research and act according to my conscience.

I long for the day when God' s rulership will be the only one in existence. (Matt 6:9, 10) :sad:
 

ResLight

Praising Yahweh!

I understand the difference between the governing body of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society and the members or witnesses. I am aware that the biblical God has always had His witnesses: first Israel, in the OT and then believers in Jesus Christ called to be His witnesses, in the NT until present day. The Watchtower Society did not come into existence until the late 1800’s to early 1900’s started by Charles Taze Russell


I am not with the Jehovah's Witnesses, nor did Charles Taze Russell ever believe in an organization such as the Jehovah's Witnesses. Russell did start printing his Watch Tower magazine in 1870s, in order to defend the vicarious atonement through Jesus' sacrifice. Russell never believed in any human central authority at all except for Jesus, the apostles and the prophets, through the Bible. Thus, the WTS as Russell had envisioned it no longer exists, for after he died, Rutherford, in effect, destroyed the WTS as Russell had left it by having new by-laws passed. With his new WTS, Rutherford usurped authority away from the Board of Directors, dismissed the majority of the Board and replaced them with others who supported him. Little by little, he began to do something Russell refused to do, that is, to create a new religious organization with himself as the central authority,although that is not the way that he himself worded it. By 1928, the vast majority of the Bible Students movement world-wide had rejected Rutherford's "Jehovah's visible organization" dogma.
Charles Taze Russell and the Jehovah’s Witnesses - Charles Taze Russell: Examining the Facts


followed by Judge Joseph Franklin Rutherfordm and other men thereafter. I see no connection between these men and the apostles of Jesus Christ. As a matter of fact Charles Russell rejected Christianity,
delved into Eastern religions,


Russell did not reject Christianity itself; what he was actually rejecting was man's dogmatism that has become associated with Christianity. Yes, he examined many different heathen religions and found them to wanting. Through the aid of other Christians, however, he began to realize that the Biblical Christianity does not uphold man's self-appointed "orthodox" dogmas of immortal soul, eternal torture in literal fire, trinity, and he began to realize how these doctrines of men actually contradict the ransom for all as given in the Bible.

and then finally came back to the Bible, but as a skeptic ready to superimpose his own ideas rather than a believer seeking God’s leading through His word.

Anyone actually familiar with Russell's writings knows that the above describes just the opposite of what Russell actually did. Russell, in fact, cast aside man's ideas and submitted himself and encouraged all to submit the what God has revealed by means of His spirit in the Bible.

The governing body is a group of men who claim to have the exclusive right to interpret the scriptures for witnesses and exercise extreme authority to make detailed rules and requirements which impact the lives of each witness, rather than allowing or encouraging them to personally search the scriptures and seek God directly through Christ.

Russell himself disclaimed such authority as described above many times over (although some others began making claims for him that he did not make for himself). Russell had to keep reminding others that he did not claim any special authority over the congregations or the Bible Students. He even plainly stated that one should not accept anything he said because he said it, and that he could be in error on some things, and constantly pointed to the Bible as the final authority.
Search for "bible authority" - Charles Taze Russell: Examining the Facts

I am not making light of this issue, nor am I denying that there is any long past pagan connections to birthdays or any custom in this world for that matter. But to say that birthdays are evil because some people did bad things on their birthday or pagans used the day for idolatry is guilt by association and I believe this is warped logic. I am not saying that God changes His mind. I am saying that God hates sin and idolatry and it is these which He forbids participation in, not celebrating a loved one’s birthday. Let me ask you again...does the Watchtower (governing body) teach its members that celebrating a loved one’s birthday equals idolatry?

Russell never sought to forbid anyone from celebrating birthdays or any other day. There are some things, however, pertaining to many celebrations that do mimick heathen idolatry and could lead to agreement with "that table of the demons." -- 1 Corinthians 10:14-21.

See my studies on idolatry:
Christian Living » Idolatry
 
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JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
You can be vegan like me - almond milk and coconut milk :D it's amazing how much dropping dairy, or at least severely restricting it, can help health.

There are certainly health benefits from following a vegan diet. I have no doubt about the way we in western society are victims of a system designed to promote an ongoing level of sickness so that Big Pharma can continue to peddle their wares in maintaining our ill health for their own profit. It is not designed to kill us outright, but to lead us to a level of ill health that their drugs and medications can maintain. We are never offered cures, only treatments.....there are no profits in cures. Treatments, on the other hand can make us "feel" a bit better whilst keeping us dependent on our regular medication. :sarcastic

We in the west are by and large prevented from growing our own food to an extent. Those who live in prosperous cities do not have enough land area or the time (or energy) to grow their own food. In Australia, we see 'postage stamp' blocks of land sold to build enormous houses that fill the entire block. There is no back yard to speak of and if there is any outdoor space, it is taken up with swimming pools, spas and entertainment areas. Lifestyle is promoted as a measure of success and the thought of growing your own food could not be further from people's minds.

Just about all commercial food production is severely depleted of health benefits because of being grown in mineral deficient, biologically "dead" soil, fed with artificial fertilizers and laced with chemical pesticides and herbicides. Organic farming methods could just as easily be implemented but it does not fit the world agenda. Organically grown food is generally beyond the budget of ordinary people. Many are simply unaware that the "fresh" foods they buy in supermarkets are not "fresh" at all.

"Food Inc" was a documentary that exposed the mass production of food as commercially beneficial to the "big boys" in charge of the process, but not at all beneficial to the ground level producers or the consumers on the end of the chain. :(

When people become aware of the corruption that drives all sectors of this world, the devil's rulership becomes very apparent. (1 John 5:19; 2:15-17)

Most people cannot even imagine the level of corruption that exists in this world and how much it affects their lives every day....God will soon expose it and deal with those greedy individuals and corporations who promote and perpetuate it.

This is the "good news of the kingdom" that JW's preach in all the world.
God's rulership will soon "crush" all corrupt human rulership under the devil's influence, out of existence and replace them as the world's only governance.

The kingdom will "come" ready or not. (Matt 6:9, 10; Dan 2:44)
And it will come "like a thief" when we least expect it. (1 Thess 5:1-6; Matt 24:43, 44)

We simply ask that people evaluate the information that is available to them and consider the possibilities that we are bringing to their attention.

Discrediting the messenger is an old trick. Enemies were able to silence the son of God by doing just that. They persecuted his followers with the same tactic. It doesn't make the message any less valid. Imperfect humans can and do make mistakes....we always have...but God uses us anyway to warn others about what is coming. (Matt 24:36-39) We can't make people listen. :sad:
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
Blood is a multi million dollar business. It is not the "life saving" procedure that most people have been led to believe it is.

The American Red Cross provides approximately 40% of the blood supply in the United States through voluntary blood donations. Blood products collected are thoroughly screened and donors must meet specific criteria to donate.

The American Red Cross is also a non-profit, humanitarian organization that doesn't make money from blood. It only recooperates costs for the supplies, processes and professionals needed to collect, screen and provide blood products.

I have no desire to debate the practices of this organization. My intentions by sharing this information are only to educate you. You can learn more about what this organization does through the provided link.

Many who can donate blood in America, consider their blood donation a special way to give back to their communities. My father has been donating blood since my childhood.

Google the dangers of blood transfusions.

I have. So, I'm sure that you're also aware that the majority of side effects and reaction to blood transfusion are quite minor. Most reactions can be detected early on in a transfusion and the procedure will be stopped or adjusted.

Then try the actual cost of a blood transfusion.

Blood transfusions are insanely priced.

You're bringing up very distinct issues that deserve their own attention.

The high cost of medical procedures and treatment is a convoluted issue in and of itself. Whether or not a blood transfusion or blood products are genuinely needed, is another and needs to be considered in situational context.

Businesses and organizations that collect and "sell" blood products should be evaluated individually, as they don't all operate the same.

Then, of course, personal convictions on receiving blood products for religious or non religious reasons are one or more issues to contemplate.

Then Google bloodless surgery. See for yourself why it is still promoted even though the risks are well documented.

The dangers associated with blood transfusion are relatively low in the United States. Severe and life threatening complications (from blood transfusion) are very rare.

There are different types of transfusions as well. Blood it often separated into at least three components: red blood cells, plasma and platelets. These components (and others in blood) can be used separately to treat a variety of illnesses.

Blood products will continue to be "promoted" as blood can only be replaced by blood.

Whether or not an individual genuinely needs whole blood or a component of blood to sustain life isn't something that we can speak to in blanket label terms, as this is highly contingent upon the prognosis of the patient.

An alternative therapy may yield the same (or better) results and may be much less expensive. But, the fact remains that an alternative therapy may not be best suited for a patient in a particular situation.

Where there are vast amounts of money to be made, there is always corruption. Whose world are we living in?

There's corruption everywhere.

Not every organization that collects blood appears to be making "vasts amount of money" from their endeavors. I consider costs for blood therapy to be a separate, convoluted issue worthy of its own discussion.

have countless brothers and sisters who were told point blank that they would die without blood. None of them did.

I'm thankful that they didn't perish and I understand your concern. It is problematic to be expected to utilize products that conflict with your religious convictions and that may not be necessary to treat specific ailments or to assist you during a medical crisis.

I understand this and believe that your rights should be protected and that your doctors should be legally obligated to respect your wishes.

However, I also see potential for conflict. For one, if a physician genuinely feels that blood therapy would save a life or improve recovery in a situation, I wouldn't fault them for referring you to another physician, if you refuse the therapy needed.

During an emergency situation, medical professionals should be providing treatment that is the most quick and efficient to sustain life. That is their job.

You should be able to communicate your needs and your needs should be considered whenever feasible.

As a parent, I would question another parent who would forego blood therapy in favor of alternative medicine if they've been educated by a physician that blood therapy is the more conducive option for recovery or survival.

On the other hand, I would take issue with a physician foregoing the wishes of a parent in favor of blood therapy, if it's not necessary to yield the same or comparable results.

I respect your right to your religious beliefs and to make the decisions that you feel are best, given your convictions. What concerns me are blanket label statements, when, much relating to this topic would really need to be reviewed in situational context.

There's a sigificant difference between an emergency situation that requires immediate action and decisions vs. those situations to where conversations regarding preferences can be had.

I don't have the statistics to review, but, I would imagine that statistically, the number of JWs dying annually because they refuse blood products is probably quite low. However, I do question how one can reconcile God's commandment that we should not kill with the concept of rejecting a procedure that could save your life or another's. Be mindful, in context, here, I'm speaking as to the instance when by failing to accept blood products, death occurs.

Many more people die who have had blood transfusions.

I wasn't aware that there are solid statistics available for comparison in this regard. I'm interested in your source.

It is no coincidence that the human circulatory system is compatible with ordinary sea water. Saline can save your life just as easily and more safely than blood,

Yes, but, only if the body has adequate enough red blood cells after a blood loss to sustain oxygenation to tissues.

The person who has lost close to half of their blood supply, may require blood products for life sustainment. Volume expanders help, but, they aren't responsible for oxygenating. Your red blood cells would still need to be sufficient enough in numbers to sustain oxygenation. If alternate therapies (such as oxygen therapy in conjunction with volume expanders) are available and would yield the same results, then, they should be used if that's the patients wishes and the patient can reasonably communicate these wishes.

which was forbidden by God's law and was restated as a necessary thing for Christians. Blood is sacred to God. It is the very symbol of life itself. Consuming the blood of another physically is repugnant and forbidden in God's word.

Differences in biblical interpretation.

I am bound to God's commandments too, but, this is not a commandment that carried over to the new covenant. And consumption is defined differently by different people.

Respectfully, I don't know anyone other than the JWs who consider blood via IV as a form of "consumption".
 
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Jeremy Mason

Well-Known Member
i just talk to a couple of my friends in the medical field about JWs and their children. One is in nuclear medicine and the other a pediatrician. The question that I asked was," in the event that a JWs child absolutely and immediately needs a blood transfusion, will the judges back the doctor in the event the case goes to trail. The answer was Yes. Here in the US and probably elsewhere, the judge will side with the doctor. So chalk one up for kids in the US.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
i just talk to a couple of my friends in the medical field about JWs and their children. One is in nuclear medicine and the other a pediatrician. The question that I asked was," in the event that a JWs child absolutely and immediately needs a blood transfusion, will the judges back the doctor in the event the case goes to trail. The answer was Yes. Here in the US and probably elsewhere, the judge will side with the doctor. So chalk one up for kids in the US.

Of course. As a judge would likely side with medical professionals if a parent denied a child treatment for a treatable form of cancer or other ailment.

Statistically speaking, how often does this happen? I can't find any solid statistical information to demonstrate how many JWs annually are dying BECAUSE they refuse blood therapy for themselves or for their children.
 

DeepShadow

White Crow
I was in the JW's DIR and we have come to the point where it is necessary to move the topic to an appropriate DIR.

The question is: Does giving gifts on birthdays and Christian holidays promote pagan believes?

I don't think so. Most Christians that give gifts on these days are not commemorating pagan practices. Most are celebrating the day of ones birth and the accomplishments of certain time-lines of Christ.

It appears the logic flows this way: these practices started out as pagan traditions, therefore they retain these roots even after full assimilation into Christianity.

By that logic, you could tell a researcher at the Howard Hughes Medical Institute that they are not as sincere as a real researcher, because Hughes originally started the institute as a tax dodge, and only after his death did his friends decide to make him an honest man by building a medical research facility with all the money. ;)

Even worse, this is basically to claim that if a Christian sees a pagan doing A THING, and decides that that THING is a good idea, the Christian cannot adopt this idea as his/her own, because it has pagan "cooties" on it that can never be expunged.

Even if it is an awesome idea.

Even if it would help the Christian accomplish his/her divine commandment to bring others closer to Christ.

I freely admit, I do not understand this logic.
 
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JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
i just talk to a couple of my friends in the medical field about JWs and their children. One is in nuclear medicine and the other a pediatrician. The question that I asked was," in the event that a JWs child absolutely and immediately needs a blood transfusion, will the judges back the doctor in the event the case goes to trail. The answer was Yes. Here in the US and probably elsewhere, the judge will side with the doctor. So chalk one up for kids in the US.

Yes, this is the case and we do not have authority over the law. What we do have though, is the assurance of doctors to treat our children without blood if at all possible. Doctors who liaise with JW's on a reasonable level, understand our position on this issue. It is no small thing. We see it as a violation of our body tantamount to rape. It is that important to us. So we see it also as a violation of our children's bodies to force a blood transfusion on them. Compassionate doctors understand this.

We have changed the minds of the medical profession on this issue. Everything they thought they knew about blood as medicine has been turned on its ear because we pushed this envelope. The fact that bloodless medicine is now commonplace with respected hospitals dedicated to it, has to make people realize that all is not as it appears.

Judges in a court are always going to side with the "experts" but these experts have been shown to be wrong about their whole attitude towards blood. It is the profession that taught them to use blood in the first place. Doctors who have kept up to date, will know the adverse effects and do all in their power to avoid it.

If specialists themselves are happy to consult with our Hospital Liaison brothers on the treatment of Witness patients, then those who ignore this source of information through blind prejudice are not treating the whole person. They are merely treating a body. These are not dedicated to their profession but to their own bigoted beliefs. A trusted professional will take all the factors relating to a patient's well being into consideration.

Many people die who have had transfusions. It is no guarantee of saving life. The incidence of someone dying because they refuse blood is so rare that it usually makes the headlines. Those who lost their life would probably have died regardless. No one seems to take these things into consideration. A sensationalized story is always accepted without question. Since when is the media interested in the truth?

A blood transfusion is no guarantee of living. Apart from the body's natural immune response, there are blood borne viruses that keep on mutating. Who knows what is out there hatching in the blood supply that cannot at present be screened for? Who saw HIV coming?

There are procedures that can be implemented that can conserve blood and recycle it. Cell salvage can achieve this and now they are developing a liquid form of oxygen that will replace blood transfusions altogether.

EPO can boost red cell production and Witness patients have proven that a low red cell count can be survived as long as the volume is kept up and efforts made to facilitate recovery without compromising their conscience.

Comparing recovery rates between those who accepted blood and those who didn't, (involving the same procedure,) statistics have shown that it is beneficial not to use blood. Witness patients recovered very quickly and reduced their time in hospital. This is a very attractive prospect to hospital management in terms of purely financial considerations.

We would expect a law of God to be beneficial....and this is no exception.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The prohibition on blood should be viewed as a guideline and not a matter of deciding for or against YHVH. Especially so because of two good reasons I think. The first reason is because there is nothing mentioned in The Bible about medical procedures. Abstaining from blood has to do the the greedy eating of meat. The second reason is provided by the very organization that prohibits it under the threat of losing one's place before God. It is that some parts of blood are considered all right and some are not. That goes to show that blood is a conscience matter. Since children's conscience is not trained, then I should side with the law of the land if it trumps the parent's decision.

I do not wish any parent to have to go through it with their child. I especially fear for Jehovah Witness parents if their child was in a crisis so bad blood was recommended.
 

DeepShadow

White Crow
At the recommendation of another forum member, I have edited my previous post to be a little more understanding. I hope no one was offended.

I'll be happy to look into the scientific claims of blood transfusions vs. bloodless surgery, if the original topic no longer interests anyone. My first thought is, how do JW's with hemophilia? This is not a situation that has a bloodless alternative, as I understand it. Is that just handled using blood banking? Is blood banking against JW beliefs?
 

Jeremy Mason

Well-Known Member
Yes, this is the case and we do not have authority over the law. What we do have though, is the assurance of doctors to treat our children without blood if at all possible. Doctors who liaise with JW's on a reasonable level, understand our position on this issue. It is no small thing. We see it as a violation of our body tantamount to rape. It is that important to us. So we see it also as a violation of our children's bodies to force a blood transfusion on them. Compassionate doctors understand this.

Tantamount to rape? Stop embarrassing yourself!

We have changed the minds of the medical profession on this issue. Everything they thought they knew about blood as medicine has been turned on its ear because we pushed this envelope. The fact that bloodless medicine is now commonplace with respected hospitals dedicated to it, has to make people realize that all is not as it appears.

You presume way to much. If you actually knew what most doctors think about your position, you would not say such things.

Judges in a court are always going to side with the "experts" but these experts have been shown to be wrong about their whole attitude towards blood. It is the profession that taught them to use blood in the first place. Doctors who have kept up to date, will know the adverse effects and do all in their power to avoid it.

Your bias really has no impact on the medical community.

If specialists themselves are happy to consult with our Hospital Liaison brothers on the treatment of Witness patients, then those who ignore this source of information through blind prejudice are not treating the whole person. They are merely treating a body. These are not dedicated to their profession but to their own bigoted beliefs. A trusted professional will take all the factors relating to a patient's well being into consideration.

I'm so glad your not a doctor.

Many people die who have had transfusions. It is no guarantee of saving life. The incidence of someone dying because they refuse blood is so rare that it usually makes the headlines. Those who lost their life would probably have died regardless. No one seems to take these things into consideration. A sensationalized story is always accepted without question. Since when is the media interested in the truth?

I'm no fan of the media, but even the media, as corrupt as the can be, have the moral upper-hand when it come to mocking those who blindly skew medical protocol for their puffed-up religious shenanigans. Bloodless surgery, hey that's great! But saying that the people who need a blood transfusion and chose not to, died because they were probably going to dies anyway, demonstrates your naivety. You are no doctor JJD!

A blood transfusion is no guarantee of living. Apart from the body's natural immune response, there are blood borne viruses that keep on mutating. Who knows what is out there hatching in the blood supply that cannot at present be screened for? Who saw HIV coming?

You should work for Fox News or a haunted house. :D

There are procedures that can be implemented that can conserve blood and recycle it. Cell salvage can achieve this and now they are developing a liquid form of oxygen that will replace blood transfusions altogether.

EPO can boost red cell production and Witness patients have proven that a low red cell count can be survived as long as the volume is kept up and efforts made to facilitate recovery without compromising their conscience.

Comparing recovery rates between those who accepted blood and those who didn't, (involving the same procedure,) statistics have shown that it is beneficial not to use blood. Witness patients recovered very quickly and reduced their time in hospital. This is a very attractive prospect to hospital management in terms of purely financial considerations.

That's great and again, I have no problem with these procedures if they are medically sound.

We would expect a law of God to be beneficial....and this is no exception.
"A lot of people are tired around here, but I'm not sure they're ready to lie down, stretch out and fall asleep." — Jim Jones

http://murderpedia.org/male.J/images/jones_jim/jim_jones_201.jpg
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
Tantamount to rape? Stop embarrassing yourself!
I believe that you should be embarrassed making an ignorant statement like that.

Any violation of person's body is the same as rape. I believe that even the law recognizes this.

You presume way to much. If you actually knew what most doctors think about your position, you would not say such things.
And I believe that you presume too little. Your stance borders on bigotry. :sorry1: Any doctors who agree with you are demonstrating the same repugnant quality. There is no room for bigotry in medicine. If they cannot accept the limitations placed on them by the patient's wishes, but wish to force their own views, then that says very little for them as medical practitioners.

We have many doctors on our registers who will happily treat JW patients. In fact, they are welcomed as patients because they will work with the doctors for the best outcome. They don't drink to excess and they don't smoke or take recreational drugs and they do not live high risk lifestyles, so doctors know that any medical attention received will not be undone in the weeks following treatment.

Your bias really has no impact on the medical community.
Of course not! They now have hospitals dedicated to bloodless medicine because it is so life saving. :facepalm: JW's had nothing to do with this, did they?

People used to castigate us for our stand until the AIDS epidemic implicated blood as the prime method of spreading the disease. It is known that blood can be infected with all manner of things that a person has been exposed to over their lifetime.

After the AIDS scare in the 80's, people steered away from the use of blood in medicine and doctors discovered that it was actually beneficial for all their patients, not just JW's.

Without JW's as willing 'guinea pigs' in surgical procedures, doctors would not have been so quick to come to their conclusions. Patients recover more quickly without blood. That is a fact.

I'm so glad your not a doctor.

Are you? :sarcastic

I'm no fan of the media, but even the media, as corrupt as the can be, have the moral upper-hand when it come to mocking those who blindly skew medical protocol for their puffed-up religious shenanigans.
Bigotry again. There is no way we "blindly skew medical protocol" by refusing a treatment that has been proven by the medical profession itself not to be the life saving procedure it was once believed to be.

Refusing blood has never cost anyone I know, their life. There have been numerous examples of those who were told point blank that they would die without blood...none of them did. These are personal acquaintances and friends, not strangers to me. I am speaking about ectopic pregnancies, car accidents, bowel cancer, numerous surgeries, including open heart and orthopaedic work. All of these recovered well without blood.

Bloodless surgery, hey that's great! But saying that the people who need a blood transfusion and chose not to, died because they were probably going to dies anyway, demonstrates your naivety. You are no doctor JJD!

You're right, I am not a doctor, but that doesn't mean that I am ignorant either. We have researched this subject extensively. We have doctors and other medical professionals in our ranks, so there is no basis for you to take the high ground here.
We have experts in the field working with us.

You should work for Fox News or a haunted house. :D
1 Cor 10:12
The condescension is unnecessary unless it is the only way you have to discredit sound medical practice.

That's great and again, I have no problem with these procedures if they are medically sound.

Medically sound? Blood transfusions have proven to be medically unsound for countless people. Bloodless medicine is here to stay. When the liquid oxygen becomes available, no blood will be needed for any reason. Trauma patients will get this treatment at the accident site by paramedics. This is the direction that medicine is heading. Soon this will be a dead topic, but regardless of the outcome, we will obey God's direct command to "abstain from blood". (Acts 15:19, 20, 28, 29)
You are free to do as you wish.

Is this what we can expect of you now? How low would you like to sink?

I have nothing more to say to you on this topic. It's a waste of time when someone has their fingers firmly planted in their ears. :ignore:
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
At the recommendation of another forum member, I have edited my previous post to be a little more understanding. I hope no one was offended.
I guess some LDS beliefs would make people 'want to vomit too', but they would not be rude enough to say so. :facepalm: Everyone is entitled to their beliefs, even if we disagree with them.
Thank you for the edit anyway.

I'll be happy to look into the scientific claims of blood transfusions vs. bloodless surgery, if the original topic no longer interests anyone.
The original topic has been hashed to death actually. :D

My first thought is, how do JW's with hemophilia? This is not a situation that has a bloodless alternative, as I understand it.
Let me give you a first hand account of a brother in the US who suffered with haemophilia. This is an excerpt from a 1987 Awake magazine article.

"I was baptized as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in July 1971, and my wife Leslie was baptized in March 1972.
Six Months to Live?
The original estimate was that I would only live about six months, since I would surely have a serious problem and the doctors would not be able to stop the bleeding. How happy I am that they were wrong!
Within six months of taking my stand, though, my faith was put to the test. I had a particularly painful experience with a shoulder hemorrhage. My old hospital refused to treat me unless I agreed to let them give me a transfusion if necessary. I refused. With the help of local Witnesses, I found a hospital and staff willing to respect my wishes.
When I stopped getting transfusions, my wife and I started a treatment plan of our own: elastic bandages; ice packs; immobilization; bed rest when necessary; pain medication; and when the pain was too severe to handle, temporary hospitalization. This has worked reasonably well over the years. Oh, there has been continued deterioration of the joints that are subject to frequent hemorrhages, my knees and shoulders in particular.
“Someone Up There Must Like You!”
About the middle of 1978, I had what proved to be one of the most trying experiences of my life. I developed a hemorrhage in a kidney. Of course, the older I get, the more severe these things can be and, without transfusions, even more serious. Naturally, you can’t wrap a kidney in an elastic bandage or immobilize it from performing its normal functions. The prognosis was not good.
Normal red blood cell (hemoglobin) count is between 14 and 16, and usually I am about 16. But during the next two weeks my count dropped below five! As the next few days passed, the doctors urged me to consider the possible consequences of not taking blood. If I waited too long, they were sure I would die.
For obvious reasons, I have been very close to the medical profession all my life. I have grown to appreciate that most of them are well-meaning. They don’t want to lose a life if they think they can save it. It was hard for them to understand my position on the blood issue.
While I was in the hospital, I received a letter informing me that I had been assigned my first part on the next circuit assembly of Jehovah’s Witnesses. How my spirits soared! Within 24 hours my hemoglobin count leveled off. This was the first indication that the bleeding had stopped. Then the doctor came back and told me: “In about a week or ten days, when your hemoglobin count gets up to ten, we will send you home.” Well, within three or four days it was high enough for me to go home.
Over the next few weeks, on follow-up visits, the doctor mentioned that he had learned a new way to treat hemophiliacs—“to wait.” He added: “Someone up there must like you!”
Since that time—except for the occasion in 1981 when I was laid up for six weeks with a hemorrhage in my right knee—my health has remained fairly constant. I do continue to have bleeding episodes that confine me to bed for several days or even weeks, but these pass, and I am able to resume most activities.
With my beloved wife and two sons, I look forward to many more years to come. But whatever happens, I feel certain that I have done what any Christian must do—obey Jehovah whether it seems to be the easy thing to do or not. Some day medical science may develop an artificial clotting factor. But my real hope is in Jehovah’s righteous new system wherein all will enjoy perfect health. (Isaiah 33:24; Revelation 21:3, 4)—As told by John A. Wortendyke."

I can tell you also that the oldest living haemophiliac in Australia was one of Jehovah's Witnesses. What do you suppose he would answer if you asked him if he was happy about his decision to avoid Factor 8 when AIDS was wiping out haemophiliacs hand over fist before they found out why?

Treatments now for haemophilia have been broken down into very minute fractions, which are again left to individual conscience.


Is that just handled using blood banking? Is blood banking against JW beliefs?
Any storage and administration of whole blood or of its 4 major components is rejected by Jehovah's Witnesses. We will not even store and use our own blood.
However, when blood is reduced to tiny fractions that can no longer be identified as blood by themselves, each person must make their own decision based on the workings of their own conscience. There is no Biblical command concerning the fractional components that may be utilized in the body, that happen to be in the bloodstream, but not a basic component of it.

We do not force our view on anyone, but ask simply that people do some more balanced research on this subject.
 

Jeremy Mason

Well-Known Member
I believe that you should be embarrassed making an ignorant statement like that.

Any violation of person's body is the same as rape. I believe that even the law recognizes this.

Sorry, but I'm a rape survivor. The events that happened that day go beyond anything you would like to compare it to.


And I believe that you presume too little. Your stance borders on bigotry. :sorry1: Any doctors who agree with you are demonstrating the same repugnant quality. There is no room for bigotry in medicine. If they cannot accept the limitations placed on them by the patient's wishes, but wish to force their own views, then that says very little for them as medical practitioners.

Saving peoples lives is not bigotry.

We have many doctors on our registers who will happily treat JW patients. In fact, they are welcomed as patients because they will work with the doctors for the best outcome. They don't drink to excess and they don't smoke or take recreational drugs and they do not live high risk lifestyles, so doctors know that any medical attention received will not be undone in the weeks following treatment.

I'm cool with that.


Of course not! They now have hospitals dedicated to bloodless medicine because it is so life saving. :facepalm: JW's had nothing to do with this, did they?

Given this, I'm under the understanding that the JWs are largely accredited with such procedures.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3695989-post328.html

Post from JayJayDee
We have signed agreements with them and a Hospital Liaison Committee to deal with all inquiries on the bloodless treatment of Jehovah's Witnesses. We are actually experts in this field now.


People used to castigate us for our stand until the AIDS epidemic implicated blood as the prime method of spreading the disease. It is known that blood can be infected with all manner of things that a person has been exposed to over their lifetime.

After the AIDS scare in the 80's, people steered away from the use of blood in medicine and doctors discovered that it was actually beneficial for all their patients, not just JW's.

Blood Transfusions & Organ/Tissue Transplants

Without JW's as willing 'guinea pigs' in surgical procedures, doctors would not have been so quick to come to their conclusions. Patients recover more quickly without blood. That is a fact.

Woman Dies After Jehovah Witness’ Family Refused her Accepting Blood Transfusion | Widower to Press Charges Against Wife’s Family | Bella Naija



Are you? :sarcastic

:yes:


Bigotry again. There is no way we "blindly skew medical protocol" by refusing a treatment that has been proven by the medical profession itself not to be the life saving procedure it was once believed to be.

No bigotry again, it's been proven, as the article above states.

Refusing blood has never cost anyone I know, their life. There have been numerous examples of those who were told point blank that they would die without blood...none of them did. These are personal acquaintances and friends, not strangers to me. I am speaking about ectopic pregnancies, car accidents, bowel cancer, numerous surgeries, including open heart and orthopaedic work. All of these recovered well without blood.

Apparently not.

You're right, I am not a doctor, but that doesn't mean that I am ignorant either. We have researched this subject extensively. We have doctors and other medical professionals in our ranks, so there is no basis for you to take the high ground here.
We have experts in the field working with us.

Saving lives is taking the high ground. Not all bloodless surgery has the outcomes you so advocate.


1 Cor 10:12
The condescension is unnecessary unless it is the only way you have to discredit sound medical practice.

The only thing I'm condescending is your medical expertise as the following comment will adequately illustrate.

Medically sound? Blood transfusions have proven to be medically unsound for countless people. Bloodless medicine is here to stay. When the liquid oxygen becomes available, no blood will be needed for any reason. Trauma patients will get this treatment at the accident site by paramedics. This is the direction that medicine is heading. Soon this will be a dead topic, but regardless of the outcome, we will obey God's direct command to "abstain from blood".

You are free to do as you wish.

Duly noted.

Is this what we can expect of you now? How low would you like to sink?

Posted by JayJayDee
have countless brothers and sisters who were told point blank that they would die without blood.

Death by refusing to allow a medical doctor to do ALL HE/SHE CAN DO and comparing a blood transfusion to rape is about as low as it gets. Jim Jones also believe it would be better to die, than to except rational thought.



I have nothing more to say to you on this topic. It's a waste of time when someone has their fingers firmly planted in their ears. :ignore:

I have repeatedly said that the accomplishments in bloodless surgery is fine by me when it has sound medical proof. Who has their fingers in their ears? :rolleyes:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3679303-post104.html

From katzpur
I'm just wondering how many more times you're going to say you're done with this thread and then come right back and start in again. It's kind of like the boy who cried wolf. If you're not done with your rant, don't keep saying you are, for crying out loud.
 
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Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
i just talk to a couple of my friends in the medical field about JWs and their children. One is in nuclear medicine and the other a pediatrician. The question that I asked was," in the event that a JWs child absolutely and immediately needs a blood transfusion, will the judges back the doctor in the event the case goes to trail. The answer was Yes. Here in the US and probably elsewhere, the judge will side with the doctor. So chalk one up for kids in the US.

they do that here also and i can assure you that a lot of doctors disagree with it.

Its very sad when a society takes away the rights of parents, and then to make matters worse, they are not accountable when something goes wrong.

I assume that in a place like America, there is a level of accountability and people can be sued for liability....im sure you agree with a persons right to sue? Do you realise that when something goes wrong with a forced blood transfusion, the judge who ordered it and the doctors who administered it are not held liable?
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
[youtube]JAWhRqCjT9w[/youtube]
U.S Military Doctors Learn Bloodless Surgery Methods - YouTube

Some of the comments made by medical experts in this clip are:


"We should use tranfusion as last resort"

"bloodless medicine promotes healing, reduces infection and saves lives"

"Reduces patients exposure to Bank blood which is associated with negative outcomes"

"there is always complication associated with tranfusion"

The facts speak for themselves.
 
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Jeremy Mason

Well-Known Member
For our JWs and RF members, here is an awesome video explaining the benefits of these medical alternatives. My hats off to the efforts in this field. I too can only hope that these medically proven procedure become more of the norm. However, in the event that all else fails, one needs to consider all the proven life saving facilities that our medical profession possesses.

[youtube]QDg69rJ36OA[/youtube]
THE TRUTH ABOUT BLOOD TRANSFUSION AND JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES 1-3 {STRONG IMAGES} - YouTube
 

Jeremy Mason

Well-Known Member
they do that here also and i can assure you that a lot of doctors disagree with it.

That very well maybe the case in operations that might not absolutely need blood transfusions. However, as all cases are not the same as in massive blood lose where there is no other alternative to blood transfusion, I'd say the responsible and ethical life saving option is the one that takes precedent.

Its very sad when a society takes away the rights of parents, and then to make matters worse, they are not accountable when something goes wrong.

These doctors work extremely hard to avoid circumstances that jeopardize a patient's health. Yes, things do go wrong and there is a medical avenue that addresses improper handling of patients. What I don't understand is putting doctors at odds with the full spectrum of those procedures they learned in medical school.

I assume that in a place like America, there is a level of accountability and people can be sued for liability....im sure you agree with a persons right to sue? Do you realise that when something goes wrong with a forced blood transfusion, the judge who ordered it and the doctors who administered it are not held liable?

i suppose in the event that a blood transfusion was absolutely necessary, as my friend the pediatrician said,"The courts have sided with the doctor."

Separation of church and state is a US Constitutional right that ways heavily in such cases.

By the way, Jesus, in the last supper, gives his disciples wine that is symbolic of his blood and says,"Drink...". Now wine is not blood, but its symbology is unquestionably intriguing in former discussions of drinking blood.
 
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