Christian's Birthdays and Other Holidays

[Shiranui117]

The magi were astrologers from the east whose custom was to give gifts to royal children. They did not accept Jesus as 'their' king, but only as "the one born king of the Jews" (Matt 2:2) There was no evil intent on the part of the magi but they were used as unwitting dupes by the devil in a plot to kill the child Jesus before he could fulfill his mission. The star was part of his ruse. It was not sent by God. But neither were the magi in on the plot, hence God's warning to return home by a different route.

Was the angel announcing the birth of Christ to the shepherds part of Satan's plan to tip Herod off and kill Jesus, too?

The "Christians" of the early centuries were not strong in the faith. Apostasy had taken hold and they were not vigilant with regard to adopting questionable practices.

They were not strong in the faith?! Christians were being thrown to lions, torn apart by bears, dragged through the streets, having their guts ripped out on the rack, being burned at the stake, thrown onto frozen lakes and left to die, getting their teeth smashed in, decapitated, crucified, drowned, flesh ripped off by steel combs for refusing to make even the slightest concession to paganism or state cults by making even the slightest outward appearance of compromising with paganism. The Romans told the Christians, "You don't even have to mean it when you deny Christ or sacrifice to our gods or light incense to the emperor. Just go through the motions and you will live. It doesn't have to be sincere at all, just light a little rod of incense, make one quick bow, and you're on your way!" The Christians you called apostates refused to even do that. They refused to even give the slightest hint of compromising with paganism.

If there is one thing I cannot tolerate, it is other Christians calling the thousands and thousands of martyrs and confessors in the early Church "weak in the faith" or "apostate." I absolutely cannot stand it when Christians, or those who try to lay claim to the title, throw away like worthless trash those who gave their lives for Christ, and lived under conditions we pampered Christians in the US have never faced ourselves, and never will in our lifetimes.

The people who gave their lives for Christ throughout the centuries, whether it be during the era of Roman persecution, Muslim persecution, Communist persecution or the new era of Muslim persecution, have more faith in Christ in their thumbnail than either you or I have in our entire being. If it weren't for them and their steadfast witness to God, it's very improbable that either you or I would have even heard the name of Jesus--without the martyrs standing strong in the faith during the time of Roman persecution, the Gospel would have perished as people committed apostasy to avoid being tortured to death. You owe them your faith in Christ. Without them working with God, and God working through them, there's no way the Gospel would have ever survived three centuries of harsh persecution.

By the time of Constantine, they were ripe for the take over of Roman Catholicism, which grafted Christian labels over unchristian festivals that the pagans would not relinquish.

I've already tried to teach you proper history instead of the caricacture you've learned. I'm not going to try again.

You cannot Christianize paganism....but you can paganise Christianity. Unless there is a clear 'separation' from all false worship, there can be no real reverence for Jesus or his Father. This seems to be completely overlooked in these discussions.

Then you and I come from completely different starting points. Our ending points will, sadly, never intersect.

Even New Years' celebrations are steeped in pagan customs. The first month of the year is named after Janus, a false god of 'beginnings and endings' and of 'doors and gates, of openings and closings.'

I don't see the JW's coming up with an alternative calendar that takes out the pagan names. Looks like the Jehovah's Witnesses just as guilty of using pagan customs as the Christians they criticize.

No matter what you do, it is no co-incidence that every celebration held in Christendom is linked to false worship in some form or other. The only single memorial event sanctioned by God in the Bible, is lost in the larger festival of Easter. Like the Passover, the memorial of Christ's death was the only event we were commanded to hold annually.

Good Friday is the celebration of Christ's death. Holy Thursday is the annual celebration of the Last Supper. We celebrate and participate in the Last Supper of Christ weekly.

Easter is not mentioned at all in the Bible.

It's the Resurrection of Christ that gives us life and re-opens the doors of Paradise. Without the Resurrection, Christianity is nothing. The Resurrection is worth celebrating, just as much as anything else. The death of Christ only has meaning because of the Resurrection, as St. Paul states explicitly in 1 Corinthians 15.

 

[JayJayDee]

Was the angel announcing the birth of Christ to the shepherds part of Satan's plan to tip Herod off and kill Jesus, too?

No Shiranui, the angels were actually the only legitimate heralds of Christ's birth. They appeared to Jewish shepherds out in the fields at night. They would not have been out there in the cold of winter when they kept their flocks indoors.
December was not the time of Christ's birth.

The magi did not arrive for years after Jesus was born. He was by then, a young child, living in a house. Herod ascertained the time of the star's appearance from the magi and had all the male children two years of age and under, put to death.
The magi were never at the stable with the baby in the manger. How do we know this? Because Jesus' parents presented him at the temple as prescribed in the law and they offered two turtle doves as their sacrifice. This was the offering of the poor. Had they been in possession of the magi's gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh, their offering would have been very different.

They were not strong in the faith?! Christians were being thrown to lions, torn apart by bears, dragged through the streets, having their guts ripped out on the rack, being burned at the stake, thrown onto frozen lakes and left to die, getting their teeth smashed in, decapitated, crucified, drowned, flesh ripped off by steel combs for refusing to make even the slightest concession to paganism or state cults by making even the slightest outward appearance of compromising with paganism. The Romans told the Christians, "You don't even have to mean it when you deny Christ or sacrifice to our gods or light incense to the emperor. Just go through the motions and you will live. It doesn't have to be sincere at all, just light a little rod of incense, make one quick bow, and you're on your way!" The Christians you called apostates refused to even do that. They refused to even give the slightest hint of compromising with paganism.

All you say is undoubtedly true of many of the early Christians, but true to what Jesus and the apostles foretold, apostasy was already beginning to sprout. By the 4th century Constantine introduced all manner of beliefs and practices that those very early Christians would have recoiled at.

If there is one thing I cannot tolerate, it is other Christians calling the thousands and thousands of martyrs and confessors in the early Church "weak in the faith" or "apostate." I absolutely cannot stand it when Christians, or those who try to lay claim to the title, throw away like worthless trash those who gave their lives for Christ, and lived under conditions we pampered Christians in the US have never faced ourselves, and never will in our lifetimes.

I have never decried the bravery of the early martyrs Shiranui but I do deplore what the church became in its steady decline into outright apostasy.

The people who gave their lives for Christ throughout the centuries, whether it be during the era of Roman persecution, Muslim persecution, Communist persecution or the new era of Muslim persecution, have more faith in Christ in their thumbnail than either you or I have in our entire being.

Since my own brotherhood are not immune to such persecution, I have nothing but admiration for all those who endured such murderous hatred from opposers.

I've already tried to teach you proper history instead of the caricacture you've learned. I'm not going to try again.

I'm sorry that my understanding is not the same as your own, but the overall history of Catholicism is not very impressive. I am aware of your understanding, but the fact that you subscribe to all the adoptions....Easter, Christmas, Lent(?) crucifixes and icons as images in your worship, priestly garb etc. demonstrates to me that you believe much the same as the rest of Catholicism....similar to the rest of Christendom even.

Then you and I come from completely different starting points. Our ending points will, sadly, never intersect.

I am sad to say that you might be right.

I don't see the JW's coming up with an alternative calendar that takes out the pagan names. Looks like the Jehovah's Witnesses just as guilty of using pagan customs as the Christians they criticize.

Do you honestly think that trying to live in the world by operating our own calendar would be practical or even possible? We do not incorporate the days of the week or the months of the year into our worship. The Gregorian calendar is a Catholic production is it not? Why did Pope Gregory not change the names of the days and months when he had the opportunity?

Good Friday is the celebration of Christ's death. Holy Thursday is the annual celebration of the Last Supper. We celebrate and participate in the Last Supper of Christ weekly.

Since the Lord's supper was a replacement for the Passover, how often did the Jews celebrate their Passover? Where is the directive to hold it weekly?

It's the Resurrection of Christ that gives us life and re-opens the doors of Paradise. Without the Resurrection, Christianity is nothing. The Resurrection is worth celebrating, just as much as anything else. The death of Christ only has meaning because of the Resurrection, as St. Paul states explicitly in 1 Corinthians 15.

There is no directive to go beyond what is written. Christ's death was the only event we were told to memorialise. The Passover was celebrated on the date of the anniversary, not the day of the week closest to the date. Regardless of how much we appreciate the resurrection, it was the shedding of Jesus blood that saved us, not his resurrection, which facilitated his return to heaven.

Incorporating pagan customs related to the worship of a fertility goddess whose name they retained as well as her symbols, dare to call it "Christian" and then imagine that it is all OK with the God who says he does not tolerate the worship of any other god....? Seriously?

I honestly believe that you do not know the God of the Bible at all. Your God is definitely not my God.

 

[Shiranui117]

No Shiranui, the angels were actually the only legitimate heralds of Christ's birth. They appeared to Jewish shepherds out in the fields at night.

So what makes you think the angels were from God, yet the star wasn't? I don't think anyone in history prior to the JW's has had this interpretation of events.

December was not the time of Christ's birth.

And who here has said it was?

All you say is undoubtedly true of many of the early Christians, but true to what Jesus and the apostles foretold, apostasy was already beginning to sprout. By the 4th century Constantine introduced all manner of beliefs and practices that those very early Christians would have recoiled at.

Constantine didn't introduce anything.

Since my own brotherhood are not immune to such persecution, I have nothing but admiration for all those who endured such murderous hatred from opposers.

Except the millions of Christians suffering in the Middle East now of course, because they're just misguided, Satan-worshipping apostates in your view, right? And the same thing with the millions upon millions of Orthodox Christians who died at the hands of the Communists?

I'm sorry that my understanding is not the same as your own, but the overall history of Catholicism is not very impressive. I am aware of your understanding, but the fact that you subscribe to all the adoptions....Easter, Christmas, Lent(?) crucifixes and icons as images in your worship, priestly garb etc. demonstrates to me that you believe much the same as the rest of Catholicism....similar to the rest of Christendom even.

I have soundly refuted every single one of these objections on numerous occasions in this and other threads. If you want to ignore the facts of the matter, be my guest.

Do you honestly think that trying to live in the world by operating our own calendar would be practical or even possible?

I thought the JW's prided themselves on not being any part of this world?

We do not incorporate the days of the week or the months of the year into our worship. The Gregorian calendar is a Catholic production is it not? Why did Pope Gregory not change the names of the days and months when he had the opportunity?

Because the names of days and months didn't really matter all that much.

Since the Lord's supper was a replacement for the Passover, how often did the Jews celebrate their Passover? Where is the directive to hold it weekly?

1 Corinthians 11 points to the fact that it was held more than just annually. And we know from the testimony of Christians from the first and second centuries that it was indeed the practice to hold it whenever they came together to worship--which meant every Sunday.

If you want to take just the Bible and ignore every other teaching of the Apostles, that's fine. But don't pretend to be able to know how the early Church operated if you're only going to use the Bible and nothing else. Because the Bible doesn't tell us much of anything about the early Church--just that there were priests, bishops and deacons, that worship consisted of intercessory prayers, hymns, the Lord's Supper, readings from the Old Testament (the NT wasn't considered Scripture yet), and a sermon. All the details about the life of the early Church in the time of the Apostles and in the decades afterward is only to be found in extra-Biblical writings.

Simply put, it is utterly impossible to know about Christian history using just the Bible alone. We need to use the other primary sources if we want to learn about the Church.

There is no directive to go beyond what is written. Christ's death was the only event we were told to memorialise. The Passover was celebrated on the date of the anniversary, not the day of the week closest to the date. Regardless of how much we appreciate the resurrection, it was the shedding of Jesus blood that saved us, not his resurrection, which facilitated his return to heaven.

St. Paul tells us that the Resurrection is more important than just being a stepping stone for Jesus' return to Heaven.

12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.

Incorporating pagan customs related to the worship of a fertility goddess whose name they retained as well as her symbols, dare to call it "Christian" and then imagine that it is all OK with the God who says he does not tolerate the worship of any other god....? Seriously?

I and others have refuted this logic countless times. If you wish to believe in a falsified version of history, then I can't stop you.

I honestly believe that you do not know the God of the Bible at all. Your God is definitely not my God.

If you believe I don't worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God the Apostles preached, the God the martyrs died for... Then we have nothing to discuss in the Same Faith Debates forum. You know nothing of my relationship with God, and you are in no position to judge my heart. I call upon God to judge what is in our hearts, and do not presume to do so myself. He will judge between us and see that I have only sought to defend the witness of the early Church, the faith and teachings and traditions of the Apostles, rejecting thoroughly any pagan infiltration into Christianity.

May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God the Father and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you.

 

[savagewind]

Perhaps the brothers had each chosen to have a special dinner for all the family on a set day of the mont

You do not know. The Governing Body does not know. The point you are missing is you are leaning on believing what you do not know. Not knowing puts it is the class of unreality. You are trusting in unreality. It is all right for you to trust in anything you do not know but what your mission is is to be convincing whoever will, to trust in your unreality with you.

You both have missed my point about guilt. There are people who might believe in your unreality but are not willing to join you in it so they celebrate birthdays believing God hates what they are doing. I hear you say "so what?"

Is that the stand Jehovah's Witnesses are taking? If JWs are wrong about certain things and their wrongness has caused distress to other people who believe in the Lord Jesus is your reaction in the judgement going to be "well, we thought we were right"?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

when Isreal were delivered out of Egypt, some of them chose to celebrate the occasion by making a golden calf and calling it Jehovah.

Was Gods reaction one of pleasure or displeasure?

Did God condone it and conclude that they were merely acting in ignorance? No. The action he took against them was decisive.

The Jews have a covenant with God Disobeying it is serious.

Christians have no such covenant to abide by.

 

[savagewind]

The Jews have a covenant with God Disobeying it is serious.

Christians have no such covenant to abide by.

The promise was made to Abraham that all the nations will bless themselves due to the fact Abraham listened to YHVH. YHVH instituted a covenant between God and Israel. It is because of that covenant that Jesus Christ came. He has come. So to imitate obedience to Israel's convenant with God is to deny Jesus Christ because the covenant was for Jesus Christ to come.

I agree with you disobedience to that convenant was serious for them because it held the promise of a messiah.

I am not tied to that covenant because I believe in The Messiah.

I believe it is good to observe and understand the law that was put in force for the covenant because it means that we are sharing in "the mind of Christ". But to teach obedience to it is taking on the mission of the priests and Levites. To do that is to mock their very serious profession. Even though they are all deceased they are alive to YHVH.

 

[dawny0826]

The magi were astrologers from the east whose custom was to give gifts to royal children. They did not accept Jesus as 'their' king, but only as "the one born king of the Jews" (Matt 2:2) There was no evil intent on the part of the magi but they were used as unwitting dupes by the devil in a plot to kill the child Jesus before he could fulfill his mission. The star was part of his ruse. It was not sent by God. But neither were the magi in on the plot, hence God's warning to return home by a different route.

The "Christians" of the early centuries were not strong in the faith. Apostasy had taken hold and they were not vigilant with regard to adopting questionable practices. By the time of Constantine, they were ripe for the take over of Roman Catholicism, which grafted Christian labels over unchristian festivals that the pagans would not relinquish. You cannot Christianize paganism....but you can paganise Christianity. Unless there is a clear 'separation' from all false worship, there can be no real reverence for Jesus or his Father. This seems to be completely overlooked in these discussions.

Please link me to where I may find this information in God's Word, directly. Thank you.

I'm not interested in your interpretation and the conclusions that your Church has drawn when connecting interpretation to perceived history.

Even New Years' celebrations are steeped in pagan customs. The first month of the year is named after Janus, a false god of 'beginnings and endings' and of 'doors and gates, of openings and closings.' No matter what you do, it is no co-incidence that every celebration held in Christendom is linked to false worship in some form or other. The only single memorial event sanctioned by God in the Bible, is lost in the larger festival of Easter. Like the Passover, the memorial of Christ's death was the only event we were commanded to hold annually. Easter is not mentioned at all in the Bible.

Please show me scripturally through God's direct word, where we are told NOT to honor him, NOT to rejoice in Him and NOT to remember Him.

There are so many things that have been introduced into church teachings over the centuries but people have grown up with these things and have been led to believe that they are part of Christianity. They are not.

Clearly, much of what you personally believe has been introduced in church teachings and not necessarily through direct biblical instruction.

If it didn't matter, then Paul would not have mentioned them in 2 Cor 6:14-18. :sad:

IDOLATRY. 2 Cor 6:14-18 pertains to IDOLATRY.

Rocking around the Christmas tree doesn't translate to IDOLATRY. Allowing the folly of the holiday to SUPERCEDE our responsiblities to God and to our faith walk translates to a form a IDOLATRY.

Merely celebrating Christ's birth and resurrection does not translate to IDOLATRY. Festivities to include eating, cultural, religious or family tradition, etc. do not translate to IDOLATRY unless those involved place such activity ABOVE God Almighty.

 

[savagewind]

What I mean is the law was given to Israel because YHVH chose Israel to be a nation for God for God's son to be born in it. Now people use that law that was for the coming of The Messiah to live by and to preach to others that they also must live by it so that they might please God for salvation. They say "we do it this way because God told the nation of Israel to do it this way". But the Nation of Israel was God's preparation for Christ to come. Has Christ come?

 

[Katzpur]

I and ScubaPete used to be members of the ICC (International Church of Christ). A very fundamentalist church that knocked on doors. So I understand the JW's and the Mormons to a greater degree.

Have you kept up with ScubaPete? If you are still in touch with him, tell him 'Hi' from me!

 

[JayJayDee]

So what makes you think the angels were from God, yet the star wasn't? I don't think anyone in history prior to the JW's has had this interpretation of events.

Considering the proliferation of the "weeds" in Jesus' parable, that is not surprising. Only at "the time of the end", (the harvest time) would God cause a separation between the "wheat" and the "weeds". These parallel the "sheep" and the "goats".
If the goats have no idea that they are falling short in God's eyes then the weeds must mistakenly think that they are wheat. (Matt 7:21-23) God allows such a "strong delusion" in keeping with the desire of people's hearts. (2 Thess 2:9-12) We have to understand that a "delusion" is someone's reality. :ignore:

And who here has said it was?

Who then chose a date, a festival and all its customs, completely unrelated to Christianity, to take on a celebration that had no precedent in Judaism? If the Jews did not celebrate birthdays, then Jesus didn't either. We are told to "separate" from all things related to false worship. Christendom embraces them. If we know the origins and continue on in full knowledge, Paul tells us what the outcome will be. Ignore him at your own risk.

"17“‘Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take you in.’” 18“‘And I will become a father to you, and you will become sons and daughters to me,’" (2 Cor 6:14-18)

Can you see any leeway there for continuing to practice false worship once you know the truth?

Constantine didn't introduce anything.

We have very different interpretations of who this man was. He was not a baptised Christian until on his deathbed, yet his influence brought about a complete change in the fusing of pagan Roman sun worship and apostate Christianity. He is responsible for the institution of the Catholic Church. You can gloss over his role, and turn him into a hero, but history disagrees with you. The fact is, Constantine was a sun worshippers all his life.

Except the millions of Christians suffering in the Middle East now of course, because they're just misguided, Satan-worshipping apostates in your view, right? And the same thing with the millions upon millions of Orthodox Christians who died at the hands of the Communists?

Shiranui, emotive statements like this are simply not true. But I can see what you are trying to imply. No one has said that those who follow other religions are "satan-worshipping apostates". My own brothers have been horribly persecuted too.

Like Jesus, who was sent first to his own people...(those who purportedly worshipped the same God) we too have been sent to those who also claim to worship the God of the Bible. Just as the Jews of Jesus' day had been led into error by their leaders and teachers, so Jesus' disciples in this time of the end have been sent on a 'search and rescue mission' among people professing a Christian faith and also those of non Christian faiths. (Matt 10:11-15) But we cannot do any more than offer the truth. We do not expect any more success that what Jesus himself achieved. He offered his message, but not many accepted the truth. The majority stayed in their comfort zone, afraid of change.

I have soundly refuted every single one of these objections on numerous occasions in this and other threads. If you want to ignore the facts of the matter, be my guest.

You have offered no sound reason or facts for believing anything positive about the early church or Constantine's role in it. :sorry1:

I thought the JW's prided themselves on not being any part of this world?

You didn't answer the question. Why didn't Pope Gregory get rid of the pagan names of the days and months when he had an excellent opportunity to do so?

JW are in the world, but not of it.....we have no control over what it calls days and months on its Catholic Gregorian calendar.

1 Corinthians 11 points to the fact that it was held more than just annually. And we know from the testimony of Christians from the first and second centuries that it was indeed the practice to hold it whenever they came together to worship--which meant every Sunday.

The shifting from the Jewish Saturday Sabbath to Sunday as a day of worship was because pagan Romans already held Sunday to honor the sun. How do you not see what satan has done? The Romans worshipped the sun and Christendom turn their worship also to the sun, except they spelled it with an "o" instead of a "u".

If you want to take just the Bible and ignore every other teaching of the Apostles, that's fine. But don't pretend to be able to know how the early Church operated if you're only going to use the Bible and nothing else. Because the Bible doesn't tell us much of anything about the early Church--just that there were priests, bishops and deacons, that worship consisted of intercessory prayers, hymns, the Lord's Supper, readings from the Old Testament (the NT wasn't considered Scripture yet), and a sermon. All the details about the life of the early Church in the time of the Apostles and in the decades afterward is only to be found in extra-Biblical writings.

We can learn much from these writings, but mostly it is about deviation from the original teachings of Christianity. There is a reason why scripture ends with the Revelation. Nothing written from then on is really needed to formulate beliefs. Beliefs that did not exist before then, should not exist now in Christian teachings. All of the doctrines that Christendom accepts as truth were all introduced after the writings of the apostles.

Simply put, it is utterly impossible to know about Christian history using just the Bible alone. We need to use the other primary sources if we want to learn about the Church.

The only Christianity we should be interested in, is that which was taught by Jesus and those directly taught by him. Once the apostles passed away, the weeds began to grow and flourish. If this is the only Christianity that people know, then telling them something different might first appear to be untrue.
The Jews took this approach to Jesus.....it did not end well for them.

St. Paul tells us that the Resurrection is more important than just being a stepping stone for Jesus' return to Heaven.

The Lord's Supper was a commemoration of Christ's death. His resurrection was not mentioned as part of the memorial. The Passover was an annual event. Nowhere is it stated that the Lord's Supper was anything but an annual event.

The scripture you quoted in 1 Cor 15:12-19 is about the hope of the resurrection for Christ's followers. Christ's resurrection was offered as a guarantee of that future resurrection for his "joint-heirs". There is no command to commemorate that event but there is a clear command to memorialise Christ's death.

I and others have refuted this logic countless times. If you wish to believe in a falsified version of history, then I can't stop you.

Obviously the refutation was not convincing enough. There has been falsified history, but who is responsible for the distortion of truth is a matter of interpretation. Who do you want to believe? We could well rewrite the history of many countries when the truth was falsified to paint wrongdoers in a more favorable light.

If you believe I don't worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God the Apostles preached, the God the martyrs died for... Then we have nothing to discuss in the Same Faith Debates forum.

I don't believe that your heart is open to the possibility that the church you support is capable of being horribly corrupted. It doesn't mean that it is full of awful people...on the contrary, there are many sincere and lovely people in all faiths, but I believe that their faith is misplaced and that their trust will be betrayed in the very near future.

You know nothing of my relationship with God, and you are in no position to judge my heart. I call upon God to judge what is in our hearts, and do not presume to do so myself. He will judge between us and see that I have only sought to defend the witness of the early Church, the faith and teachings and traditions of the Apostles, rejecting thoroughly any pagan infiltration into Christianity.

You are right Shiranui, I am in no position to judge anyone. That is not my job. I am just a messenger and all I can do is offer the message. You are free to believe or disbelieve anything we say. All we ask is that you will evaluate the message by doing your own research.

May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God the Father and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you.

This is also our sincere wish for all who are searching for the truth. I have no ill will towards anyone but only hope that our message will not fall on deaf ears. (Matt 24:36-39)

 

[JayJayDee]

Please link me to where I may find this information in God's Word, directly. Thank you.

Here is the scripture from the Darby Translation (biblegateway.com) .....you will see it accurately translates "magi" not "wise men". Other translations call them "astrologers". Astrology was forbidden to the Jews. It is also interesting that "pro·sky·ne′o" is rendered "do him homage" recognising that it was not "worship" that the magi offered to Jesus. They identified Jesus as "the king of the Jews" not their own king. They were pagans used as dupes in a plot to kill Jesus. They were merely following their custom. There is nothing to indicate that they ever became worshippers of the true God.

"The east" is Babylon, the seat of false religion and its spiritistic practices. Astrology was commonly practiced in Babylon.

You will notice that the star led them directly to the place where Jesus was, only after Herod was informed of his existence, so it could just as easily have done that all along. It came to a stop over the "house" where they found the "little child" not a newborn infant in a stable, in a manger.

If God had produced the star, ask yourself this....why would God send pagan worshippers to a wicked king knowing that the outcome would result in the slaughter of innocent children? If God had announced the birth of his son to Jewish shepherds by means of his angelic messengers, then why would he need to inform worshippers of false gods? Jesus was sent to preach exclusively to his own people. (Matt 15:24) Gentiles were not invited into God's arrangement until the conversion of Cornelius with the apostle Peter

Please read this account for yourself. Read it carefully and you will see a completely different story to the one presented by Christendom.

Matthew 2:1-23 "Now Jesus having been born in Bethlehem of Judaea, in the days of Herod the king, behold magi from the east arrived at Jerusalem, saying, Where is the king of the Jews that has been born? for we have seen his star in the east, and have come to do him homage. But Herod the king having heard of it, was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him; and, assembling all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Christ should be born. And they said to him, In Bethlehem of Judaea; for thus it is written through the prophet: And *thou* Bethlehem, land of Juda, art in no wise the least among the governors of Juda; for out of thee shall go forth a leader who shall shepherd my people Israel. Then Herod, having secretly called the magi, inquired of them accurately the time of the star that was appearing; and having sent them to Bethlehem, said, Go, search out accurately concerning the child, and when ye shall have found him bring me back word, so that *I* also may come and do him homage. And they having heard the king went their way; and lo, the star, which they had seen in the east, went before them until it came and stood over the place where the little child was. And when they saw the star they rejoiced with exceeding great joy. And having come into the house they saw the little child with Mary his mother, and falling down did him homage. And having opened their treasures, they offered to him gifts, gold, and frankincense, and myrrh. And being divinely instructed in a dream not to return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way. Now, they having departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appears in a dream to Joseph, saying, Arise, take to thee the little child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be there until I shall tell thee; for Herod will seek the little child to destroy it. And, having arisen, he took to him the little child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt. And he was there until the death of Herod, that that might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son. Then Herod, seeing that he had been mocked by the magi, was greatly enraged; and sent and slew all the boys which were in Bethlehem, and in all its borders, from two years and under, according to the time which he had accurately inquired from the magi. Then was fulfilled that which was spoken through Jeremias the prophet, saying, A voice has been heard in Rama, weeping, and great lamentation: Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not. But Herod having died, behold, an angel of the Lord appears in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, saying, Arise, take to thee the little child and its mother, and go into the land of Israel: for they who sought the life of the little child are dead. And he arose and took to him the little child and its mother, and came into the land of Israel; but having heard that 'Archelaus reigns over Judaea, instead of Herod his father,' he was afraid to go there; and having been divinely instructed in a dream, he went away into the parts of Galilee, and came and dwelt in a town called Nazareth; so that that should be fulfilled which was spoken through the prophets, He shall be called a Nazaraean."

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Have you kept up with ScubaPete? If you are still in touch with him, tell him 'Hi' from me!

No, I haven't heard from him. But if I do, I'll give a shout-out for you.

 

[Pegg]

The Jews have a covenant with God Disobeying it is serious.

Christians have no such covenant to abide by.

but christians did abide by many of the same rules of the covenant because they represented Gods high standards.

for example,

Acts 15:28 For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you except these necessary things: 29 to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled,


Notice the apostles said to 'keep abstaining'

Obviously, this was not a new commandment...it was a continuation of some of those mosaic laws.

And in revelation we find certain forms of conduct which still recieve death as their judgement, Rev 21:8  But as for the cowards and those without faith and those who are disgusting in their filth and murderers and the sexually immoral and those practicing spiritism and idolaters and all the liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This means the second death.”

Being a christian requires that we uphold Gods high standards....the same standards expressed by the mosaic law. Isreal was in a covenant, but so are christians....its a covenant of obedience just as Isreal had under the mosaic law.

 

[dawny0826]

Here is the scripture from the Darby Translation (biblegateway.com) .....you will see it accurately translates "magi" not "wise men".

It doesn't matter whether they were kings, wise men or magi. What did they do according to Matthew 2?

Other translations call them "astrologers". Astrology was forbidden to the Jews.

A note on the magi:

The Magi are popularly referred to as wise men and kings. The word magi is the plural of Latin magus, borrowed from Greek μάγος magos,[10] as used in the original Greek text of the Gospel of Matthew ("μάγοι"). Greek magos itself is derived from Old Persian maguŝ from the Avestan magâunô, i.e., the religious caste into which Zoroaster was born, (see Yasna 33.7: "ýâ sruyê parê magâunô" = "so I can be heard beyond Magi"). The term refers to the priestly caste of Zoroastrianism.[11] As part of their religion, these priests paid particular attention to the stars and gained an international reputation for astrology, which was at that time highly regarded as a science. Their religious practices and use of astrology caused derivatives of the term Magi to be applied to the occult in general and led to the English term magic, although Zoroastrianism was in fact strongly opposed to sorcery.

Source

Whether or not these men were sorcerers, kings or scientific men (of the time) - the bible does not suggest directly that they did anything to betray Christ.

It is also interesting that "pro·sky·ne′o" is rendered "do him homage" recognising that it was not "worship" that the magi offered to Jesus. They identified Jesus as "the king of the Jews" not their own king.

My bibles suggest that they did worship Jesus. They were the first to fall to their knees and worship Christ.

The Magi are described as "falling down", "kneeling" or "bowing" in the worship of Jesus.[2] This gesture, together with Luke's birth narrative, had an important effect on Christian religious practices. They were indicative of great respect, and typically used when venerating a king. Inspired by these verses, kneeling and prostration were adopted in the early Church. While prostration is now rarely practised in the West it is still relatively common in the Eastern Churches, especially during Lent. Kneeling has remained an important element of Christian worship to this day

Source

They were pagans used as dupes in a plot to kill Jesus. They were merely following their custom. There is nothing to indicate that they ever became worshippers of the true God.

Clearly, Herod did want to kill Jesus. Who will argue that with you? I won't. The bible directly states that Herod called for the wise men and asked for information on the child. But, the wise men didn't return to Herod. The bible depicts that they fell to their knees when they saw Christ and were told divinely not to return to Herod. There is no biblical evidence to suggest that they returned to him.

In context, there's no biblical depiction that their visit was objected to either. Wouldn't there have been objection to their visit if they were "magi" in the sorcery context?

The bible states (NKJV) Matthew 2:9-12 Source

9 When they heard the king, they departed; and behold, the star which they had seen in the East went before them, till it came and stood over where the young Child was. 10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceedingly great joy. 11 And when they had come into the house, they saw the young Child with Mary His mother, and fell down and worshiped Him. And when they had opened their treasures, they presented gifts to Him: gold, frankincense, and myrrh.
12 Then, being divinely warned in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed for their own country another way.

"The east" is Babylon, the seat of false religion and its spiritistic practices. Astrology was commonly practiced in Babylon.

Astrology was viewed as a legitimate scientific practice in some parts of the world during that time in history. And many who accepted astrology as legit scientific practice, did not allow for sorcery in their religious practices.

The Zoroastrians, in example, didn't allow for sorcery and anything that they perceived to be "evil". Though there's no historical evidence that they were worshipping the God of Abraham, every Abrahamic faith has borrowed from Zoroastrianism.

It pre-dates the Abrahamic faiths. Their "false" religious practice is what they knew.

You will notice that the star led them directly to the place where Jesus was, only after Herod was informed of his existence, so it could just as easily have done that all along.

Per the NKJV, they were en route. Are you sure that they were aware that Herod would react to their inquiries in the manner that he did?

Matthew 2:2-3 Source

2 Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem, 2 saying, “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him.”
3 When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. 4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he inquired of them where the Christ was to be born.

It came to a stop over the "house" where they found the "little child" not a newborn infant in a stable, in a manger.

The nativity doesn't have to represent one event, JayDeeDee. It's a snapshot, if you will, of events that were relevant at and around the time of Christ's birth. The wise men or magi or whatever you want to call them, were a part of this story, as were sheep herders and angels.

You're putting more energy into this than most Christians do. These details - whether we have them "right" or "wrong" do not impact the overall story. Christ was born! The King was born! Herod didn't get his grubby hands on him at or around his birth, now did he? Christ did fulfill His purpose.

If God had produced the star, ask yourself this....why would God send pagan worshippers to a wicked king knowing that the outcome would result in the slaughter of innocent children?

My bibles do not suggest that he did. By bibles suggest that these men, whoever they happened to be were led to Christ by a star. When they entered Jerusalem, they asked about the child. They mentioned the prophecy of Christ's birth. Herod got his panties in a bunch and wanted information on the child.

Again, the bible doesn't depict that they returned to Herod. They paid their respects and went home.

If God had announced the birth of his son to Jewish shepherds by means of his angelic messengers, then why would he need to inform worshippers of false gods?

I won't pretend to understand what you're asking here.

Jesus was sent to preach exclusively to his own people.

Understatement.

Please read this account for yourself. Read it carefully and you will see a completely different story to the one presented by Christendom.

Oh, I have. Many times. As I've told you before, this boils down different biblical interpretation and application.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

From:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3693038-post23.html

Pegg

we are not the only christians to recognize birthdays as a pagan practice. The early christians are noted for not celebrating birthdays. And even the earlies church historians mention this as a fact. For example Origin says ‘of all the holy people in the Scriptures, no one is recorded to have kept a feast or held a great banquet on his birthday. It is only sinners (like Pharaoh and Herod) who make great rejoicings over the day on which they were born into this world below.’”—The Catholic Encyclopedia, 1913, Vol. X, p. 709.

I know and earlier christians used to have witch-hunts. You can show me where christians supported not celebrating birthdays and I can show you that they have. I'll call it a stalemate.

Pegg

Why do you think the early christians didnt celebrate birthdays?

I think you are getting ahead of yourself. Just because you can point out a 1913 quote from The Catholic Encyclopedia and make referenced to Pharaoh and Herod birthdays is still not proof that other christians haven't celebrated birthdays. We do, we have and we will. That's why (as well as other reasons) you don't see us at the Kingdom Halls.

Do you think their example is not worth anything??

Nope, just another group of Judaizers who want to make christianity something it is not.

 

[JayJayDee]

Whether or not these men were sorcerers, kings or scientific men (of the time) - the bible does not suggest directly that they did anything to betray Christ.

no dawny, I never suggested that there was any evil intent on their part. You know what a dupe is?

My bibles suggest that they did worship Jesus. They were the first to fall to their knees and worship Christ.

The word translated "worship" (proskyneo) literally means the act of bowing down before someone as an act of honor, respect or reverence. It can be used with reference to a person in authority, a king or as an act of humility, none of which translate to worship of the sort we give to God, though it is the same word. It is clear that the magi did not "worship" Jesus in that sense, but paid homage or respect to him as a royal child.

Clearly, Herod did want to kill Jesus. Who will argue that with you? I won't. The bible directly states that Herod called for the wise men and asked for information on the child. But, the wise men didn't return to Herod. The bible depicts that they fell to their knees when they saw Christ and were told divinely not to return to Herod. There is no biblical evidence to suggest that they returned to him.

dawny, I never said they did. They had no evil intent, as I have said many times.

In context, there's no biblical depiction that their visit was objected to either. Wouldn't there have been objection to their visit if they were "magi" in the sorcery context?

It was a detail that explained Herod's part in a plot to kill Jesus. The whole story of the magi explains the fulfillment of another prophesy...."Rachel weeping for her children, who were obviously both two years old and younger.

Astrology was viewed as a legitimate scientific practice in some parts of the world during that time in history. And many who accepted astrology as legit scientific practice, did not allow for sorcery in their religious practices.

Don't we get back to the main issue again?
What is acceptable to men may well be unacceptable to God. Regardless of whether these people felt that astrology was a science or not, it was a forbidden practice among God's people.

The Zoroastrians, in example, didn't allow for sorcery and anything that they perceived to be "evil". Though there's no historical evidence that they were worshipping the God of Abraham, every Abrahamic faith has borrowed from Zoroastrianism.

It pre-dates the Abrahamic faiths. Their "false" religious practice is what they knew.

You do realize that all religion has a common source? Worship of the true God began in Eden, but it was hijacked by the devil who then took it off in opposite directions. The tower builders at Babel then took it all over the world.

Per the NKJV, they were en route. Are you sure that they were aware that Herod would react to their inquiries in the manner that he did?

Of course they were not aware. As already stated, they were unwitting dupes.
There is no way that they could have known what Herod would do. He feigned affection for the child and told the magi that he too wanted to pay homage to him.

The nativity doesn't have to represent one event, JayDeeDee. It's a snapshot, if you will, of events that were relevant at and around the time of Christ's birth. The wise men or magi or whatever you want to call them, were a part of this story, as were sheep herders and angels.

Does God promote lies?
The nativity scenes in the mall often portray the "wise men" with baby Jesus in the manger. That is obviously not true. They were never there.

The star is put on top of Christmas trees. One pagan custom topped off with the image of an instrument used by the devil in his attempt to kill Jesus. What is this to God? How could it not be extremely offensive?

You're putting more energy into this than most Christians do. These details - whether we have them "right" or "wrong" do not impact the overall story. Christ was born! The King was born! Herod didn't get his grubby hands on him at or around his birth, now did he? Christ did fulfill His purpose.

My energy is devoted to promoting truth, not perpetuating the lies as if it doesn't matter. It matters more than you know.

I won't pretend to understand what you're asking here.

I am asking why you believe that God needed to inform pagan astrologers about the birth of his son? He had already informed the Jewish shepherds at the time of Jesus' human birth, so the star that the magi saw, did not come from God.
why would a God who forbids astrology to his own people then use it to inform pagan worshippers of false gods about something that had no real meaning to them? Does that seem reasonable to you?

Oh, I have. Many times. As I've told you before, this boils down different biblical interpretation and application.

And I sincerely hope that those who read the contents of this thread will consider the evidence presented here with God's view in mind, not the justifications I see from those who wish to carry on these events regardless. :sad:

Please remember Jesus' words in Matt 7:21-23. Ask yourself what "doing the will of the Father" really means? Then ask yourself if it is possible that "many" have been led down the wrong road by an expert deceiver who can make the easy road look like the right one? (Matt 7:13, 14) "Cramped and narrow" is the way to life.

 

[dawny0826]

no dawny, I never suggested that there was any evil intent on their part. You know what a dupe is?

There isn't anything scipturally that states that the devil placed the star in the sky and duped them. If this is your understanding of the story, we need to politely agree at this juncture to disagree, I think.

I believe that the wise men were a part of God's plan too. As opposed to approaching this from the perspective that the wise men were duped by the devil, I view the star instead as a God-given sign for them to follow, so that events could unfold as they did.

The word translated "worship" (proskyneo) literally means the act of bowing down before someone as an act of honor, respect or reverence. It can be used with reference to a person in authority, a king or as an act of humility, none of which translate to worship of the sort we give to God, though it is the same word. It is clear that the magi did not "worship" Jesus in that sense, but paid homage or respect to him as a royal child.

And is worship not often comprised of honor, respect and reverence? I disagree with you. I think that their type of worship did in fact compare to the type of worship that we're familiar with today.

dawny, I never said they did. They had no evil intent, as I have said many times.

You haven't said that to me many times. You've mentioned it twice in your prior post.

It was a detail that explained Herod's part in a plot to kill Jesus.

Exactly! I am of the belief that this was God ordained vs. Satan's interference.

The whole story of the magi explains the fulfillment of another prophesy...."Rachel weeping for her children, who were obviously both two years old and younger.

Events that were as part of God's plan as they were Satan's interference.

What is acceptable to men may well be unacceptable to God. Regardless of whether these people felt that astrology was a science or not, it was a forbidden practice among God's people.

I know this. But, you do not know for sure that these men were not kings or priests, as "magi" was used interchangeably for these terms.

Regardless, you and I view the story of Christ's birth differently, even when evaluating the same scripture. I do believe that these men were obeying God and worshipped Christ.

Though, I know you disagree, I would hope that you can at least understand why I do not believe that it's relevant to the story as to whether or not they were astrologers or not.

Does God promote lies?
The nativity scenes in the mall often portray the "wise men" with baby Jesus in the manger. That is obviously not true. They were never there.

I don't view the nativity in the same way that you do. I view it as an artistic depiction of stories and happenings occurring on and around Christ's birth.

The star is put on top of Christmas trees. One pagan custom topped off with the image of an instrument used by the devil in his attempt to kill Jesus. What is this to God? How could it not be extremely offensive?

God talks to me. I would assume that you can relate to this too. I talk to God. I have never felt that I've been wrong for my participation in holidays. I trust that if I need to be chastised for what I've done, God will do so firmly and lovingly.

My energy is devoted to promoting truth, not perpetuating the lies as if it doesn't matter. It matters more than you know.

Proverbs 3:5-8 NKJV Source

Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;
6 In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He shall direct[a] your paths.
7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
Fear the Lord and depart from evil.
8 It will be health to your flesh,[b]
And strength[c] to your bones.

My faith is in Christ. I turn to Him for guidance as I've been instructed to do. I talk to God about the small stuff and the big stuff. I've never felt the need to worry about having cake on my birthday. I don't know what else to tell you.

I am asking why you believe that God needed to inform pagan astrologers about the birth of his son? He had already informed the Jewish shepherds at the time of Jesus' human birth, so the star that the magi saw, did not come from God.
why would a God who forbids astrology to his own people then use it to inform pagan worshippers of false gods about something that had no real meaning to them? Does that seem reasonable to you?

It's reasonable to me that God was in control and that events unfolded as per His plan. That's what I believe and if I'm wrong - it's really okay. God will reveal to me that which i need for my faith walk. I trust that I will be held accountable to that which I may be doing wrongfully.

And I sincerely hope that those who read the contents of this thread will consider the evidence presented here with God's view in mind, not the justifications I see from those who wish to carry on these events regardless. :sad:

I don't know what to tell you. My conscience has been clear when revering and honoring my God, be it on Christmas, Easter or otherwise.

Please remember Jesus' words in Matt 7:21-23. Ask yourself what "doing the will of the Father" really means? Then ask yourself if it is possible that "many" have been led down the wrong road by an expert deceiver who can make the easy road look like the right one? (Matt 7:13, 14) "Cramped and narrow" is the way to life.

Romans 13:8-10 NKJV Source

8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,”[a] “You shall not covet,”[b] and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”[c] 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

 

[Pegg]

Nope, just another group of Judaizers who want to make christianity something it is not.

the reverse could also be true, modern Christians may be practising a false form of Christianity and claiming it to be christian.

We have the scriptures, we have Jesus teachings. Do you think christians should use them as a the basis for their worship?

 

[savagewind]

Nope, just another group of Judaizers who want to make christianity something it is not.

I believe it was prophesied that they would come in the likes of Judah.

2 Peter 3:3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised?

If you are able to think out of the box I think you will be able to see this is exactly what Christianity has become. Everyone knows Christianity has become a system of dos and don'ts. That is what Israel was. How are they saying "where is this coming he promised"? It means instead of living by the spirit with freedom they have chosen to invest in the law handed down to Judah. They occupy themselves in proving their allegiance to The Christ. That occupation is called "where is he" by Peter who wrote it. Where is he? According to them he is in The Law. But he isn't. So who are they mocking? They are mocking Jesus Christ who had set them free. How? They will not accept their freedom. It isn't the freedom to sin. It is freedom to live by spirit because God is Spirit.

 

[savagewind]

You are not thinking out of the box. Please try. Evil does not mean criminal. It means godless. God is A Spirit. If you choose to live by law not spirit you are considered 'evil' because you have put the law ahead of YHVH. I know a part of you believes there is nothing ahead of YHVH. So? Why do you put the law (The Bible) ahead of The Spirit of God? Don't you think doing so is evil?