Christian's Birthdays and Other Holidays

[james2ko]

the worship of God is not set to one day a week for us. Our understanding of what the 'sabbath' day means is very different to the rest of christendom.

1. And unfortunately just as unbiblical.

When God completed his creation of Eve on the 6th day of creation, he 'proceeded to rest on the 7th day and to make it sacred'

Now this verse, among others, has prompted the churches of Christendom to make a weekly day for worship (similar to the Jews) However, we view the sabbath as an 'ongoing time period' from the time God created Eve until today.... we are living in Gods rest 'day' and hence 'every day' of our life is a day to worship God.

2.

Gen 2:2. He [God] rested on the seventh day from all is work." Not "is resting" from all His work. Exodus 20:11: "The Lord....rested the seventh day."

Again Gen 2:3. "In it [the seventh day] He had rested." He blessed the sabbath AFTER He had rested on it.

Heb 4:4. "God did rest the seventh day from all His works." Not "is resting"!​

Furthermore, If the seventh day has not ended, God should still be resting. Yet scripture indicates He is busy at work:

Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working."

Jer 50:25 Jer 50:25 The LORD has opened His armory, And has brought out the weapons of His indignation; For this is the work of the Lord GOD of hosts In the land of the Chaldeans.

Exo 32:16 Now the tablets were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God engraved on the tablets.

Jos 24:31 Israel served the LORD all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders who outlived Joshua, who had known all the works of the LORD which He had done for Israel​

God is currently working, not at rest. The Greek and Hebrew are plain as "day". God rested on the 7th literal day after the renewing the earth, as an example for us to do the same.

So we meet together during the week...some congregations meet 'daily'. My own congregation holds meetings for service 7 days a week along with our normal sunday or saturday meeting, and our midweek evening meeting.

3. Yes, we should take note of God everyday. As a matter of fact, we can go to church, pray and sing songs and worship Him all day long. But even God is aware of the fact this is not practical and we would be breaking the same Sabbath commandment by not working (at a job/business, running errands, chores, etc) the other six days as He also commands.

At the very minimum, God wants us to keep holy or set apart at least one day a week and He was very specific as to which day. He did not leave it to chance or speculation or for us to decide. Holy means set apart for sacred use, which means treated differentlly. We, as human beings, should not change, question, or manipulate any person, place, thing, or space of time God has made holy. Those who did in the past, paid a heavy price.

In Exodus 3:5 God told Moses to remove his shoes for the place where he stood was holy ground. Moses did not question God. He simply took off his shoes. Moses understood it was God's presence which made the area holy. Similar to the ground around the burning bush, we are commanded, figuratively, to take our shoes off God's holy time--the seventh day--the time that points to Him and has His holy presence in it.

This is why JD was saying that we dont view sunday as a special day.... it holds no meaning for us. What does hold meaning for us is our service to God during his sabbath day which is recognized on a daily basis.

4. Ok so similarly neither do some Christians view a birthday celebration as a special pagan day of worship. It holds no pagan meaning for them. What does hold meaning for them is their service to God (by loving their neighbor) during that day which is recognized annually. Do you see the double standard?

What does hold meaning for us is our service to God during his sabbath day which is recognized on a daily basis.

Mat 24:20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.​

5. Think about it, Pegg. We know this passage speaks of the last days--the times we are in today. If the sabbath was just any day we choose, that would imply Christ asked His end time church to pray that our flight or escape not be in the winter or on any day we choose??? Doesn't make much sense to me. It would make sense if the sabbath was an exclusive and concrete 24 hr period of time. More importantly this passage reveals Christ's expects His true disciples today to be observing the same Sabbath He observed 2,000 years ago!

Hebrews 4:3 For we who have exercised faith do enter into the rest, just as he has said: “So I swore in my anger, ‘They will not enter into my rest,’” although his works were finished from the founding of the world. 4 For in one place he has said of the seventh day as follows: “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works,” 5 and here again he says: “They will not enter into my rest.”

6 Therefore, since it remains for some to enter into it, and those to whom the good news was first declared did not enter in because of disobedience, 7 he again marks off a certain day by saying long afterward in David’s psalm, “Today”; just as it has been said above, “Today if you listen to his voice, do not harden your hearts.” 8 For if Joshua had led them into a place of rest, God would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 So there remains a sabbath-rest for the people of God. 10 For the man who has entered into God’s rest has also rested from his own works, just as God did from his own.

1There is a sabbath for Gods people... but it means to rest from ones own works and entering into the service of God as a way of life. Entering Gods rest is a full-time endeavour.... every day of the week.

6. Your view on this verse and the sabbath was thoroughly refuted on this thread. No need to beat a dead horse. My point is not about keeping the sabbath. The point I'm trying to make is summarized in point 4, which is to expose your organization's double standard when it comes to the birthday doctrine.. Take the plank out of your eye before trying to remove the speck out of your brother's eye. That means do not correct your brother about a behavior you are currently engaged in and if you do, Christ says you are a hypocrite (Mat 7:5). You can justify yourself all day long and say you are not engaged in the same behavior, but the fact of the matter is, if you are participating in Sunday worship, for whatever reason, your behavior is no different than their birthday celebrations, in God's eyes.

 

[savagewind]

I am not here to tell other people what to do. Just bringing attention to the origins of celebrations that have been around so long that nobody questions them.

Really? Do you believe all you are doing is "bringing attention to their origin"? I have heard you say many times that anyone not listening will be judged.

You have been bringing attention not to their origin, but that doing them is disobeying God Almighty.

Do Jehovah's Witnesses still talk about being "in the truth"? How can a person say anything not true if they indeed ARE in the truth? The truth cannot lie. I see that saying "all I am doing is bringing attention to their origin" is not true. I think it is true about Pegg, but it's not true about you.

 

[savagewind]

I'm not sure where you want to go with this but can I just ask whether you are part of an international brotherhood who shares your beliefs or are you one who has just come to your own conclusions through personal study and revelation?

What I hear whenever you say something like this (which is often) is truth be stronger the more people who believe it. Heads up about how you are coming across. Do you really believe truth is stronger the more people believing it? I think Noah should have cured you of that false premise (in case you believe it - but I don't know).

 

[Pegg]

1. And unfortunately just as unbiblical.

You hold this view because you think Christians are still bound to follow the mosiac law. Its unchristian to hold to the mosaic law...inlcuding the sabbath observance.
Colos 2:13 Furthermore, though you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcised state of your flesh, God made you alive together with him. He kindly forgave us all our trespasses 14 and erased the handwritten document that consisted of decrees and was in opposition to us. He has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the torture stake.


We dont have to observe the mosaic law...which includes the sabbath law. So there is no special day of the week in which God wants us to worship him. He wants us to put our faith in Christ and follow Christs example. So we dont focus on 'days' we focus on Christ.

2.

Gen 2:2. He [God] rested on the seventh day from all is work." Not "is resting" from all His work. Exodus 20:11: "The Lord....rested the seventh day."

Again Gen 2:3. "In it [the seventh day] He had rested." He blessed the sabbath AFTER He had rested on it.

Heb 4:4. "God did rest the seventh day from all His works." Not "is resting"!​

Furthermore, If the seventh day has not ended, God should still be resting. Yet scripture indicates He is busy at work:

what you should have noted about each of the creative days is that they all end with the words 'and there came to be evening and there came to be morning a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th day'.... but it doesnt say that about the 7th day.

I take it you expect the original word is a noun? Maybe you should look that up....its a verb.

Moses wrote in the 15th century BCE....and he said that God had been 'resting' (noun) then another couple of thousand years later, Paul wrote that Gods rest day was still in progress. Thats why he told Christians they could 'enter into' Gods rest.

When Jesus made the comment about God working on the sabbath, it was because he was being critisized for healing someone on the sabbath. So he says "God has been working on the Sabbath" and Jesus had no issue with doing Gods work on the Sabbath. What does that tell you about the 'sabbath'

Jesus didnt observe it the way you think he observed it.

God is currently working, not at rest. The Greek and Hebrew are plain as "day". God rested on the 7th literal day after the renewing the earth, as an example for us to do the same.

so you think that each of the creative days was a literal 24 hours???

3. Yes, we should take note of God everyday. As a matter of fact, we can go to church, pray and sing songs and worship Him all day long. But even God is aware of the fact this is not practical and we would be breaking the same Sabbath commandment by not working (at a job/business, running errands, chores, etc) the other six days as He also commands. ]/quote]


What did Jesus do?

At the very minimum, God wants us to keep holy or set apart at least one day a week and He was very specific as to which day. He did not leave it to chance or speculation or for us to decide. Holy means set apart for sacred use, which means treated differentlly. We, as human beings, should not change, question, or manipulate any person, place, thing, or space of time God has made holy. Those who did in the past, paid a heavy price.

how many days a week did Jesus set apart to serve God?

4. Ok so similarly neither do some Christians view a birthday celebration as a special pagan day of worship. It holds no pagan meaning for them. What does hold meaning for them is their service to God (by loving their neighbor) during that day which is recognized annually. Do you see the double standard?

granted, but birthday customs still originate with false religion which is inspired by Gods enemies, namely Satan and the demons. Any religious practice they inspire is designed to oppose Jehovah and offend him.

1 Cor 10:21 You cannot be drinking the cup of Jehovah and the cup of demons; you cannot be partaking of “the table of Jehovah” and the table of demons.

Mat 24:20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.​

5. Think about it, Pegg. We know this passage speaks of the last days--the times we are in today. If the sabbath was just any day we choose, that would imply Christ asked His end time church to pray that our flight or escape not be in the winter or on any day we choose??? Doesn't make much sense to me. It would make sense if the sabbath was an exclusive and concrete 24 hr period of time. More importantly this passage reveals Christ's expects His true disciples today to be observing the same Sabbath He observed 2,000 years ago!

Jesus clearly wasnt observing the sabbath in the same way the jews of his day were... he was accused of breaking the sabbath law remember.

If they had the sabbath observance wrong back then, how do you know you have it right now?

All i know is that christians are not required to observe the sabbath because thats what the scriptures say:
Acts 15:28 For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you except these necessary things: 29 to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper. Good health to you!”

Colos 2:16 Therefore, do not let anyone judge you about what you eat and drink or about the observance of a festival or of the new moon or of a sabbath. 17 Those things are a shadow of the things to come, but the reality belongs to the Christ. ... 20 If you died together with Christ with respect to the elementary things of the world, why do you live as if still part of the world by further subjecting yourselves to the decrees: 21 “Do not handle, nor taste, nor touch,” 22 referring to things that all perish with their use, according to the commands and teachings of men? 23 Although those things have an appearance of wisdom in a self-imposed form of worship and a false humility, a harsh treatment of the body, they are of no value in combating the satisfying of the flesh.

6. Your view on this verse and the sabbath was thoroughly refuted on this thread. No need to beat a dead horse. My point is not about keeping the sabbath. The point I'm trying to make is summarized in point 4, which is to expose your organization's double standard when it comes to the birthday doctrine.. Take the plank out of your eye before trying to remove the speck out of your brother's eye. That means do not correct your brother about a behavior you are currently engaged in and if you do, Christ says you are a hypocrite (Mat 7:5). You can justify yourself all day long and say you are not engaged in the same behavior, but the fact of the matter is, if you are participating in Sunday worship, for whatever reason, your behavior is no different than their birthday celebrations, in God's eyes.

i have chosen to not celebrate birthdays, but i wouldnt dream of telling someone else they can't. Thats for them to decide. However, if we are going to discuss the subject, then I will give our view on it and state the facts as we see them. Thats not being a hypoctrite. If I were to sit here pontificating and then go ahead and celebrate brithday's myself, then you might have a point.... that would be hypocritical.

I also dont agree that its a double standard. We dont observe a day of the week as a sabbath... .in fact, we dont observe the sabbath as I already explained.

Every day is a day to worship God for us. I can't change the names of the week, but if i happen to attend a meeting on a day called 'sunday' it doesnt mean im observing the sabbath.

 

[Shiranui117]

granted, but birthday customs still originate with false religion which is inspired by Gods enemies, namely Satan and the demons. Any religious practice they inspire is designed to oppose Jehovah and offend him

Same with wedding celebrations and wedding rings. I don't see the Jehovah's Witnesses forbidding wedding celebrations, though...

 

[savagewind]

Same with wedding celebrations and wedding rings. I don't see the Jehovah's Witnesses forbidding wedding celebrations, though...

The veil once served a purpose dating back to the ancient Greeks and Romans. Fearful of evil spirits and demons, they dressed their brides in bright colors, which were believed to fight that sort of thing. Sometimes, Roman brides were completely covered in red veils to protect the bride from evil spirits.

The Wedding Veil - a Tradition That Continues Into the New Millennium - Yahoo Voices - voices.yahoo.com

Does making the veil white instead of red negate the origin of it?

The bridal party is a tradition that has been established for many centuries. For a long time the purpose of the bridal party was to fool evil spirits.

Read more: Wedding Lore and Traditions | Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/spot/weddinglore1.html#ixzz2vhB7bfnu

 

[savagewind]

Are Jehovah's Witnesses allowed to wear veils and have bride's maids?

 

[james2ko]

You hold this view because you think Christians are still bound to follow the mosiac law. Its unchristian to hold to the mosaic law...inlcuding the sabbath observance. Colos 2:13 Furthermore, though you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcised state of your flesh, God made you alive together with him. He kindly forgave us all our trespasses 14 and erased the handwritten document that consisted of decrees and was in opposition to us. He has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the torture stake. We dont have to observe the mosaic law...which includes the sabbath law. So there is no special day of the week in which God wants us to worship him. He wants us to put our faith in Christ and follow Christs example. So we dont focus on 'days' we focus on Christ.

1. Check the context. The Greek term for ordinances/decrees ["dogma"] indicates man-made traditions (vs 21-22)for which Jesus condemned the Pharisees. It is never used to describe the ten commandments of God. Did Jesus ever condemn the Pharisees for observing the sabbath? NO. He condemn them for hypocrisy and adding unnecessary burdens to it. By the same token, did the Pharisees ever condemned Jesus for observing the sabbath? No. They falsely accused him of "breaking" it. Observance was never an issue. How it was kept was the real issue. And if we are suppose to imitate Christ (1 Co 11:1), we should also imitate keeping the sabbath.

what you should have noted about each of the creative days is that they all end with the words 'and there came to be evening and there came to be morning a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th day'.... but it doesnt say that about the 7th day.

2. That is a very poor argument from silence, as I will demonstrate:

I take it you expect the original word is a noun? Maybe you should look that up....its a verb. Moses wrote in the 15th century BCE....and he said that God had been 'resting' (noun) then another couple of thousand years later,

3. The verb "rested" in Gen 2:3 is in the Qal perfect. The perfect conjugation for Qal verbs represents completed action performed by the subject of the verb!

Paul wrote that Gods rest day was still in progress. Thats why he told Christians they could 'enter into' Gods rest.

4. Paul quotes the verse and corroborates the Hebrew equivalent by using the verb "rested" in the aorist active indicative. This unique tense combination renders the verb (rested) analogous to a snapshot which captures an action at a specific point in time in the past! God had completed the rest at some point in the past! Hence the seventh day has ended! Sorry Pegg, the WT has failed you on this and the sabbath doctrine. One can only wonder how many more.

When Jesus made the comment about God working on the sabbath, it was because he was being critisized for healing someone on the sabbath. So he says "God has been working on the Sabbath" and Jesus had no issue with doing Gods work on the Sabbath. What does that tell you about the 'sabbath' .

5. It tells me that it's perfectly ok to do God's work on the sabbath.

Jesus didnt observe it the way you think he observed it.

6. I'm glad you are finally beginning to realize the actual observance of the sabbath is not and was never the issue.

so you think that each of the creative days was a literal 24 hours???

7. 1,000 percent! This particular topic happens to be one of my favorites. So proceed with caution

What did Jesus do?

8. He observed the sabbath the way it was meant to be observed and wants us to do the same, while condemning the religious establishment for adding additional burdens to it.

how many days a week did Jesus set apart to serve God?

9. He"set apart" or made holy one day and served God everyday.

granted, but birthday customs still originate with false religion which is inspired by Gods enemies, namely Satan and the demons. Any religious practice they inspire is designed to oppose Jehovah and offend him. 1 Cor 10:21 You cannot be drinking the cup of Jehovah and the cup of demons; you cannot be partaking of “the table of Jehovah” and the table of demons.

10. By the same token, worship on Sunday also originated with false religion, Pegg. Which means you are offending Jehovah.

Jesus clearly wasnt observing the sabbath in the same way the jews of his day were... he was accused of breaking the sabbath law remember. If they had the sabbath observance wrong back then, how do you know you have it right now?

11. The sabbath was mentioned as a foregone conclusion. It was a prophecy about the plight of the church today. The verse's context had nothing to do with "how" the sabbath was observed. Everything about it screams that it should be observed by His followers today. I know you are intelligent enough to perceive that. But you obviously will never concede. It will absolutely destroy everything you ever believed and shake the foundations of your faith to the core. Something most people avoid. It's true what they say, "Denial is not just a river in Egypt".

All i know is that christians are not required to observe the sabbath because thats what the scriptures say: Acts 15:28 For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you except these necessary things: 29 to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper. Good health to you!”

12. Nowhere in that verse does it state to refrain from observing the fourth commandment. That is extremely poor exegesis. Your faulty logic would indicate we should "not refrain" from breaking the commandments that are missing.

Colos 2:16 Therefore, do not let anyone judge you about what you eat and drink or about the observance of a festival or of the new moon or of a sabbath. 17 Those things are a shadow of the things to come, but the reality belongs to the Christ. ... 20 If you died together with Christ with respect to the elementary things of the world, why do you live as if still part of the world by further subjecting yourselves to the decrees: 21 “Do not handle, nor taste, nor touch,” 22 referring to things that all perish with their use, according to the commands and teachings of men? 23 Although those things have an appearance of wisdom in a self-imposed form of worship and a false humility, a harsh treatment of the body, they are of no value in combating the satisfying of the flesh.

13. I think I lost count of how many times I refuted your interpretation of this verse. And every time, I get no rebuttal. Here are two instances:

(points 2 and 3) http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2595030-post40.html

(point 2) http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2364367-post77.html

Your silence speaks much louder than your "dogma", Pegg.

i have chosen to not celebrate birthdays, but i wouldnt dream of telling someone else they can't. Thats for them to decide. However, if we are going to discuss the subject, then I will give our view on it and state the facts as we see them. Thats not being a hypoctrite. If I were to sit here pontificating and then go ahead and celebrate brithday's myself, then you might have a point.... that would be hypocritical.

I also dont agree that its a double standard. We dont observe a day of the week as a sabbath... .in fact, we dont observe the sabbath as I already explained.

Every day is a day to worship God for us. I can't change the names of the week, but if i happen to attend a meeting on a day called 'sunday' it doesnt mean im observing the sabbath.

14. But it does mean you are engaged in a pagan custom (meeting/worshiping on Sunday) while telling others to refrain from engaging in a pagan custom (birthdays). Hence the definition of double standard and hypocrisy fit perfectly.

 

[Pegg]

Same with wedding celebrations and wedding rings. I don't see the Jehovah's Witnesses forbidding wedding celebrations, though...

weddings are inspired by God himself... he instituted marriage. But he didnt institute birthday customs...they are a remnant of a false religious practice.

 

[Shiranui117]

weddings are inspired by God himself... he instituted marriage.

This doesn't quite answer my question... Do JW's have wedding rings, wedding veils, and the father walking the bride down the aisle, customs which are pagan, as savagewind so keenly pointed out?

If the JW's maintain these originally pagan wedding customs, then how can they consider wedding ceremonies to be from God? Should the JW's not condemn these wedding customs as being just as pagan as birthday customs?

But he didnt institute birthday customs...they are a remnant of a false religious practice.

So are wedding rings, wedding veils and walking the bride down the aisle. Do the JW's practice these things? If so, why are these wedding customs considered not-pagan, yet birthday customs are?

 

[Pegg]

This doesn't quite answer my question... Do JW's have wedding rings, wedding veils, and the father walking the bride down the aisle, customs which are pagan, as savagewind so keenly pointed out?

we find accounts in the bible of ancient isrealite women who wore veils for their marriages. There are also accounts of gifts being given to the brides family and vice versa.

These are customs, but not all customs are based on false religion. JW's tend to marry according to the customs of their own cultures. Savagewind can point out whatever she likes....but it doesnt change the fact that its a comparison of apples and oranges.

If the JW's maintain these originally pagan wedding customs, then how can they consider wedding ceremonies to be from God? Should the JW's not condemn these wedding customs as being just as pagan as birthday customs?

i dont know who condemns wedding customs as being of pagan religious origin...i've never heard such things???

as i said, weddings are instituted by God himself....unlike birthdays which are institutions of false religions.

So are wedding rings, wedding veils and walking the bride down the aisle. Do the JW's practice these things? If so, why are these wedding customs considered not-pagan, yet birthday customs are?

because the wedding ceremony was instituted by God..... he brought the first woman to the man (Adam and Eve) and they became the first married couple. Thereafter, all mankind followed that same tradition of a father walking his daughter to the groom. The styles of clothing worn are based on culture and climate...not on religion.

Birthdays are a religious custom based on false teachings.

 

[savagewind]

unlike birthdays which are institutions of false religions.

"Birthdays are institutions"????? Ridiculous! I think you mean birthday celebrations after the fact of birth are institutions of false religion. Is it all right to celebrate the actual birth of a Jehovah's Witness? I suppose it could not be done on the actual day of birth seeing mommy is not up to having company yet. Oh yes! I think I have answered the question myself. It is the days that give false religous practice power to offend Jehovah. Romans 14:13

I am not against giving birthday celebrations or not giving them. The Bible makes it very clear to me it is a conscience matter. But you have tied everyone's conscience to Jehovah which I believe is not good. If it is not good you are ignoring the warning that some people will be calling good bad and bad good. Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

Also I should point out that you have said "religions" with an "s" but how many Satans are there really?

What do Jehovah's Witnesses think of Romans 14:4?
Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

I hear Jehovah's Wintesses on forum saying if we do not get in line with their brand of obedience, then Jehovah will not be able to make us stand.

Which is correct?

 

[savagewind]

I think I might talk about Romans 14:4.

I understand Jehovah's Witnesses believe it is obedience that makes a person stand in the judgement. If they have obeyed all the Bible's instruction to the best of their ability then they will stand. If that is the truth then it is not Jehovah who makes a person stand but is obedience to Jehovah that makes a person stand. I am certainly able to see there is a difference. Are you?

 

[JayJayDee]

I think I might talk about Romans 14:4.

I understand Jehovah's Witnesses believe it is obedience that makes a person stand in the judgement. If they have obeyed all the Bible's instruction to the best of their ability then they will stand. If that is the truth then it is not Jehovah who makes a person stand but is obedience to Jehovah that makes a person stand. I am certainly able to see there is a difference. Are you?

“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’"

Can you see anything in that scripture that indicates a clean standing with God is a result of what an individual may define as their "Christian" standing with Jehovah?

Is celebrating a blatantly false religious practice something that a person can imagine is OK with them, and therefore is OK with God?

All the best with that reasoning.

Everyone will either justify their way to life or death....their choice. No one is their judge but Jesus. We all must choose our actions wisely based on what the scriptures themselves actually say.

If we can read 2 Cor 6:14-18 and still want to include false religious practices into our life....then we are free to do so, but we can't then say to Jesus at the judgment time that we were ignorant. We can never plead ignorance when in possession of all the facts. "Doing the will of the Father" does not include false worship. 'Separation' means what? How does one "touch" a spiritually "unclean" practice and remain in good standing with the God who demands exclusive worship? This is for each of us to decide.

On what basis do we make that judgment? (Jer 17:9, 10; Prov 3:5-7)

 

[savagewind]

“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’"

Can you see anything in that scripture that indicates a clean standing with God is a result of what an individual may define as their "Christian" standing with Jehovah?

Is celebrating a blatantly false religious practice something that a person can imagine is OK with them, and therefore is OK with God?

All the best with that reasoning.

Everyone will either justify their way to life or death....their choice. No one is their judge but Jesus. We all must choose our actions wisely based on what the scriptures themselves actually say.

If we can read 2 Cor 6:14-18 and still want to include false religious practices into our life....then we are free to do so, but we can't then say to Jesus at the judgment time that we were ignorant. We can never plead ignorance when in possession of all the facts. "Doing the will of the Father" does not include false worship. 'Separation' means what? How does one "touch" a spiritually "unclean" practice and remain in good standing with the God who demands exclusive worship? This is for each of us to decide.

On what basis do we make that judgment? (Jer 17:9, 10; Prov 3:5-7)

It is obvious who is leaning on her own understanding. It isn't me.

Will Jesus judge us for what we do on certain days?

What did he do to the bleeding woman please?



Mark 5:24-43
24 At that Jesus went with him, and a large crowd was following him and pressing against him.
25 Now there was a woman who had had a flow of blood for 12 years. 26 She had suffered much at the hands of many physicians and had spent all her resources, and she was no better but, rather, had become worse. 27 When she heard the reports about Jesus, she came up behind him in the crowd and touched his outer garment, 28 for she kept saying: “If I touch just his outer garments, I will get well.” 29 And immediately her flow of blood dried up, and she sensed in her body that she had been healed of the grievous sickness.
30 Immediately Jesus realized in himself that power had gone out of him, and he turned around in the crowd and asked: “Who touched my outer garments?” 31 But his disciples said to him: “You see the crowd pressing in on you, and you ask, ‘Who touched me?’” 32 However, he was looking around to see who had done this. 33 The woman, frightened and trembling, knowing what had happened to her, came and fell down before him and told him the whole truth. 34 He said to her: “Daughter, your faith has made you well. Go in peace, and be healed from your grievous sickness.”

Did he judge her for her disobedience?

 

[savagewind]

I understand Jehovah's Witnesses believe it is obedience that makes a person stand in the judgement. If they have obeyed all the Bible's instruction to the best of their ability then they will stand. If that is the truth then it is not Jehovah who makes a person stand but is obedience to Jehovah that makes a person stand. I am certainly able to see there is a difference. Are you?

Can you see anything in that scripture that indicates a clean standing with God is a result of what an individual may define as their "Christian" standing with Jehovah?

You did not answer my question. Are you able to see the difference between "Jehovah can make stand" and "Jehovah makes stand only those who obey God"?

If it's true that Jehovah can make stand only those who obey God, then it is not God who makes stand but obedience that makes stand. See?

Here is another way of putting it: Is Jehovah able to make stand a servant not His own like the scripture says?

Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

 

[savagewind]

I'd like to reiterate a point I made before that got no response.

In ancient times most people did not keep track of days. The fact that they did not, made celebrating a birthday on the calender day impossible for most people. Therefore we really have no way of knowing what Jehovah thinks about the common people's observance of the calender day of one's birth. It was kings who had people keep track of days and kings who proclaimed their birthday special. It is probably true that Jehovah hates that sovereigns make their own birthday special. Seeing that the only true king is Heavenly then ya, I agree kings and such national leaders should not proclaim days for themselves. It is wicked.

 

[JayJayDee]

I'd like to reiterate a point I made before that got no response.

In ancient times most people did not keep track of days. The fact that they did not, made celebrating a birthday on the calender day impossible for most people. Therefore we really have no way of knowing what Jehovah thinks about the common people's observance of the calender day of one's birth. It was kings who had people keep track of days and kings who proclaimed their birthday special. It is probably true that Jehovah hates that sovereigns make their own birthday special. Seeing that the only true king is Heavenly then ya, I agree kings and such national leaders should not proclaim days for themselves. It is wicked.

You are not going to use me to justify your position. If you have made your choice...so be it. I am not your judge. I am just a messenger.

 

[savagewind]

You are not going to use me to justify your position. If you have made your choice...so be it. I am not your judge. I am just a messenger.

What is my choice?

I think my choice is not to judge people who eat cake on their birthday anniversary.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

First, I would like to say thank you everyone for all the posts on this thread. i have learned a ton of good info.

I think it is important to remember some of the great philosophies of the New and Old Testaments that address good conduct of humankind.

Mark 12.33 (NIV)

To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

Deuteronomy 6:5 (NIV)

Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength

Leviticus 19:34 (NIV)

34 The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God.

Romans 13:9 (NIV)

The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

James 2:8 (NIV)

If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing right.

Exodus 23:4 (NIV)

“If you come across your enemy’s ox or donkey wandering off, be sure to return it.

This is what I love about God. Simple rules for simple folks. Children and animals can understand such a straight forward reality of love. I've seen unlikely acts of love that rival logic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2xNShpE3FI

I'm not cool with humans and lions buddying-up with one-another, but WOW!
If a person can accomplish this with the kings of the jungle, then we, with love, can accomplish anything that God sees fit.

On the subject of understanding God's will, I have to say by reading your posts, I've rekindled a more thorough evaluation of what I call my lackadaisical approach to Biblical philosophy. I and ScubaPete used to be members of the ICC (International Church of Christ). A very fundamentalist church that knocked on doors. So I understand the JW's and the Mormons to a greater degree.

It's important to hold on to the lessons of the past in-order to not repeat the same mistakes. Sins were made against God by the Semitic people and they got quite a few shellackings. If we fail to try to comprehend God's resolve then we are truly the enemies of ourselves and others.

Proverbs 26:9 (NIV)

Like a thorn-bush in a drunkard’s hand is a proverb in the mouth of a fool.

I'm not a rich man, I don't own a car. But what I am is a man that doesn't put unreasonable or non-biblical assumptions on those I speak to regarding my faith. If you feel the need to continue observing the laws of Moses then great. There is a treasure of good. But also understand the ultimate treasure that follows. We were designed to be co-heirs of Christ.

But with this reward comes a meticulous understanding of God's will. We need God and ourselves to finish the good race.

Proverbs 27:17 (NIV)

As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another

We are not to do this with conceit.

Galatians 22-26 (NIV)

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

Acts 20:24 (NIV)

However, I consider my life worth nothing to me; my only aim is to finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me—the task of testifying to the good news of God’s grace.

Grace, grace that is given freely to loving people. The people who:


Romans 12:9-19 (NIV)

9 Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. 10 Be devoted to one another in love. Honor one another above yourselves. 11 Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. 12 Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. 13 Share with the Lord’s people who are in need. Practice hospitality.

14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. 16 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position.[c] Do not be conceited.

17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. 18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] says the Lord.

Romans 1-4 (NIV)

Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

Let's not be the people who are overly critical. There's plenty of those people and they are not wanted. Instead, be joyful in the knowledge that God loves us all and in time we will all be in His presence. So act accordingly.

Again, thanks to everyone who has spent time in this thread and look forward to all your posts. Even the ones I may not understand.