Christian's Birthdays and Other Holidays

[james2ko]

What is the meaning of that scripture in context?Jesus said.....

23 Now as he was passing through the grainfields on the Sabbath, his disciples started to pluck the heads of grain as they went. 24 So the Pharisees said to him: “Look here! Why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?” 25 But he said to them: “Have you never read what David did when he was in need and he and the men with him were hungry? 26 How, in the account about A·bi′a·thar the chief priest, he entered into the house of God and ate the loaves of presentation, which it is not lawful for anybody to eat except the priests, and he also gave some to the men who were with him?” 27 Then he said to them: “The Sabbath came into existence for the sake of man, and not man for the sake of the Sabbath. 28 So the Son of man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

The Sabbath was mentioned as a reply to the nit picking Pharisees, who grumbled about Jesus and his disciples plucking a few grains of wheat whilst walking through a field. They accused the disciples of breaking the Sabbath. Jesus said that the Sabbath was brought into existence for man, meaning that labors were to cease for at least one day of rest each week.

1. But you said it was bought into existence "only" for the Jews:

We do not hold a weekly sabbath day, for the simple reason that the sabbath was a law for the Jews only

Will you make up your mind.

There is work and there is work. Just as David's men ate loaves that it was only lawful for the priests to eat, because of extenuating circumstances, it was forgiven. In their zeal to distinguish themselves from the Gentiles as much as possible, the Jewish religious leaders, especially after the return from Babylonian exile, gradually made the Sabbath into a burdensome thing by greatly increasing the Sabbath restrictions to 39, with innumerable lesser restrictions. (Matt 23:2-4)As "Lord of the Sabbath" Jesus had a right to determine for himself what constituted breaking the Sabbath law.....not the Pharisees.

2. That's correct, it was bought into existence for man, not just for the Jews. If it was made exclusively for the Jews, Christ missed a golden opportunity to inform us. It doesn't say "any day" or "one day", that is an unfortunate assumption on your part, it specifically states the "Sabbath"--the seventh day. Notice the dialogue says nothing about the actual keeping of the sabbath being right or wrong, but how or the manner in which it should be kept.

Jesus also said...
"Nobody sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old outer garment. If he does, the new piece pulls away from the old, and the tear becomes worse. 22 Also, no one puts new wine into old wineskins. If he does, the wine will burst the skins, and the wine is lost as well as the skins. But new wine is put into new wineskins.”

This is an indication that the old system of worship was not salvageable. Putting new wine into the old wineskins was pointless because they could not take it. The truth Christ taught was too powerful for old, inflexible Judaism. Jesus was not trying to patch up or perpetuate any worn-out religious system with its enforced fasting customs and other rites. Rather, God used Jesus to institute a new system of worship....one based on his Father's word, not human tradition.

3. The Judaism practiced at the time of Jesus was all wrong. Pharisees had made the religion started at Sinai into a burdensome set of do's and dont's (Mat 23:4). Jesus came to correct it. The actual keeping of the 4th commandment was never a part of Christ's rebuke to the Pharisees, for the commandments of God are not burdensome (1 Jo 5:3). One of the things Christ rebuked was the Pharisees' hypocrisy. They told people how to keep the sabbath and other laws while they themselves did not practice what they preached (Mat 23:4).

Jesus did not want his people to be hypocrites like the Pharisees:

"....but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.​

But the actual keeping of the sabbath was never in question:

"....Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do..." (Mat 23:3)​

I had a bit of a look but will need to do some research before I respond...don't think its taboo but sounds a bit far fetched. Pegg has nailed it by the looks.

4. Yeah, sure. That explains why she was left "reply-less"

I thought I explained that. Since we have no Sabbath and people work long hours these days to care for family responsibilities, (1 Tim 5:8) there is only the weekend for many to worship God. There are no pagan customs. Saturday and Sunday are also days when much of the preaching work is done by those who work Monday to Friday. We also have mid week evening meetings to study the Bible and to train for our ministry. In all we have 5 different meetings (usually 3 in the one evening and two on the weekend) and one evening of family worship at home. There are no hard and fast rules. Whatever suits the circumstances of the congregations is mutually agreed upon. Sometimes a few congregations share one Kingdom Hall. The congregations are kept to a manageable level so that a family atmosphere is created and the shepherds can tend the flock without them being lost in a large gathering. We take our worship very seriously and we have no pagan customs to get in the way of that. Please don't manufacture some when none exist.

5. Worshiping on Sunday is still a pagan custom to God, whether you think of it as a special day or not. Aaron and most of the Israelites thought there was absolutely nothing wrong with worshiping God on a "new" feast day while using a golden calf, as long as they focused their worship toward honoring God. And boy were they wrong--and so are you about Sunday worship.

Why? To please you? Ha ha...I don't think so. The Jewish Sabbath was Saturday...but we are not Jews.

6. Now the sabbath was made for the Jews again? You really are

From Deuteronomy 5:2, 3 and Exodus 31:16, 17: notice to whom the Sabbath law applied....“It was not with our forefathers that Jehovah concluded this covenant, but with us.”

7. The forefathers spoken of here are Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Deu 4:37). And it says nothing about a sabbath law. That is your unwarranted assumption. It states "covenant". The passage clearly indicates God made covenants with them, but not like the particular covenant he made with the nation of Israel at Sinai (vs 4). The sabbath was merely included in the Sinaic covenant, but as was demonstrated, was really a command given much earlier--as were the other 9 commandments. James tells us you break one commandment, you break them all, (Jas 2:10). Thus indicating the sabbath command was never done away! Book of Hebrews and elsewhere tells us the "laws" that were temporarily suspended are those associated with the sacrifices (Heb 9:9-11), not the 10 commandments, which are to last forever!

Before the law was given, God's worshippers did not hold a weekly Sabbath.

8. Really? The Israelites were "reminded" of keeping the sabbath before receiving the law at Sinai (Ex 16:23). Verse 28 indicates God begins to lose his patience by "reminding" the Israelites about His sabbath law. At this point, they have yet to arrive at Sinai, so at what point before Ex 16 did the Israelites receive the sabbath command? Just when you thought you had all the answers.

“The sons of Israel must keep the sabbath . . . during their generations. . . . Between me and the sons of Israel it is a sign to time indefinite.” There is no command for Christians to keep a Sabbath....unless you want to show me one that contradicts these verses

9. You mean like there's no command for Christians not to celebrate birthdays? Another double standard? Ok everyone, all together say "double standard" on three, ready--------one...two...three.........

“Christ is the end of the Law” (Rom 10:4), which results in Christians’ being “discharged from the Law.” (Rom 7:6)

10. That's awesome!! Will you help me rob a bank tomorrow?

When the circumcision issue arose and Jewish Christians wanted to force Gentile Christians to be circumcised, there was no necessity placed on Gentile Christians to do so. Nor did what was "necessary", include a Sabbath observance. (Matt 15:28, 29)Cant argue with that.

11.

Mat 15:28-29 Then Jesus answered and said to her, "O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour. Mat 15:29 Jesus departed from there, skirted the Sea of Galilee, and went up on the mountain and sat down there.​

Huh???? I sure cant because it doesn't make any sense. What does this have to do with your point??? You may want to turn your bible right side up. If you want to continue discussing this sabbath topic, go to the thread I posted above in Pegg's reply and we can continue there or start another thread. But as has been demonstrated, I'm not your "typical" Christian, so I hope you are biblically and mentally prepared.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

opcorn:

 

[Pegg]

opcorn:

pass the butter

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

pass the butter

No Butter in Lent....

 

[Jeremy Mason]

pass the butter

Ask and you shall receive.

http://star-mfg.com/media/catalog/category/butter_dispensers.jpg

 

[JayJayDee]

1. But you said it was bought into existence "only" for the Jews:

Will you make up your mind.

2. ....it was bought into existence for man, not just for the Jews. If it was made exclusively for the Jews, Christ missed a golden opportunity to inform us. It doesn't say "any day" or "one day", that is an unfortunate assumption on your part, it specifically states the "Sabbath"--the seventh day. Notice the dialogue says nothing about the actual keeping of the sabbath being right or wrong, but how or the manner in which it should be kept.

OK..I thought that the twist went out with Chubby Checker! (showing my age now ) I am assuming that you are SDA? Or hold similar beliefs?

Can I ask you to whom the scriptures say that the Sabbath law was given? (refer to my previous post) Those who existed in patriarchal times did not hold a Sabbath. Gentiles were under no command to hold a Sabbath...so the reference to "man" being given the Sabbath was to the "Jews" as Jesus was addressing Jews when he said that and no other people were under obligation to observe the law of Moses .

3. The Judaism practiced at the time of Jesus was all wrong. Pharisees had made the religion started at Sinai into a burdensome set of do's and dont's (Mat 23:4). Jesus came to correct it. The actual keeping of the 4th commandment was never a part of Christ's rebuke to the Pharisees, for the commandments of God are not burdensome (1 Jo 5:3). One of the things Christ rebuked was the Pharisees' hypocrisy. They told people how to keep the sabbath and other laws while they themselves did not practice what they preached (Mat 23:4).

No argument there. The Jews were the only ones the law applied to.

Jesus did not want his people to be hypocrites like the Pharisees:

"....but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.
​

But the actual keeping of the sabbath was never in question:

"....Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do..." (Mat 23:3)
​

True again...but it doesn't alter the fact that the Sabbath applied ONLY to the Jews. You are creating an argument that is not supported by scripture.

4. Yeah, sure. That explains why she was left "reply-less"

On the contrary, I believe she replied very well. Since your own argument was basically unsubstantiated except by implication and reference to ambiguous scripture....it is sometimes better to leave someone to their own conclusions.

5. Worshiping on Sunday is still a pagan custom to God, whether you think of it as a special day or not. Aaron and most of the Israelites thought there was absolutely nothing wrong with worshiping God on a "new" feast day while using a golden calf, as long as they focused their worship toward honoring God. And boy were they wrong--and so are you about Sunday worship.

Worshipping on any day is fine with God. It isn't the day, its the practices and their origins carried out on that day that God objects to.

6. Now the sabbath was made for the Jews again? You really are

You want to argue with the Bible on that one? Go ahead. You have no case....:sorry1:

7. The forefathers spoken of here are Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Deu 4:37). And it says nothing about a sabbath law. That is your unwarranted assumption. It states "covenant". The passage clearly indicates God made covenants with them, but not like the particular covenant he made with the nation of Israel at Sinai (vs 4). The sabbath was merely included in the Sinaic covenant, but as was demonstrated, was really a command given much earlier--as were the other 9 commandments. James tells us you break one commandment, you break them all, (Jas 2:10). Thus indicating the sabbath command was never done away! Book of Hebrews and elsewhere tells us the "laws" that were temporarily suspended are those associated with the sacrifices (Heb 9:9-11), not the 10 commandments, which are to last forever!

You are stretching scripture again.

"Jesus, being a Jew under the Law, observed the Sabbath as God’s Word (not the Pharisees) directed. He knew it was lawful to do fine things on the Sabbath. (Matt 12:12)

However, the inspired Christian writings state that “Christ is the end of the Law” (Ro 10:4), which results in Christians’ being “discharged from the Law.” (Rom 7:6)

Neither Jesus nor his disciples made any distinction between so-called moral and ceremonial laws. They quoted from the other parts of the Law as well as from the Ten Commandments and considered all of it equally binding on those under the Law. (Matt 5:21-48; 22:37-40; Rom 13:8-10; Jas 2:10, 11)

The Scriptures plainly state that Christ’s sacrifice “abolished . . . the Law of commandments consisting in decrees” and that God “blotted out the handwritten document against us, which consisted of decrees . . . and He has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the torture stake.” It was the complete Mosaic Law that was “abolished,” “blotted out,” taken “out of the way.” (Eph 2:13-15; Col 2:13, 14)
Consequently, the whole system of Sabbaths, be they days or years, was brought to its end with the rest of the Law by the sacrifice of Christ Jesus. This explains why Christians can esteem “one day as all others,” whether it be a sabbath or any other day, with no fear of judgment by another. (Rom 14:4-6; Col 2:16)

Paul made the following expression concerning those scrupulously observing “days and months and seasons and years”: “I fear for you, that somehow I have toiled to no purpose respecting you.” (Gal 4:10, 11)" (Insight Volumes)

 

[JayJayDee]

8....The Israelites were "reminded" of keeping the sabbath before receiving the law at Sinai (Ex 16:23). Verse 28 indicates God begins to lose his patience by "reminding" the Israelites about His sabbath law. At this point, they have yet to arrive at Sinai, so at what point before Ex 16 did the Israelites receive the sabbath command? Just when you thought you had all the answers.

"That the Sabbath was not enjoined upon any of God’s servants until after the Exodus is evident from the testimony of Deuteronomy 5:2, 3 and Exodus 31:16, 17: “It was not with our forefathers that Jehovah concluded this covenant, but with us.” “The sons of Israel must keep the sabbath . . . during their generations. . . . Between me and the sons of Israel it is a sign to time indefinite.”

If Israel had already been observing the Sabbath, it could not have served as a reminder of their deliverance from Egypt by Jehovah, as shown at Deuteronomy 5:15. The fact that some of the Israelites went out to pick up manna on the seventh day, in spite of direct instruction to the contrary, indicates that Sabbath observance was something new. (Ex 16:11-30)

That there was uncertainty in handling the case of the first recorded Sabbath breaker after the Law had been given at Sinai also shows that the Sabbath had only recently been instituted. (Nu 15:32-36) While in Egypt the Israelites, being slaves, could not have kept the Sabbath even if they had been under such law at the time. Pharaoh complained that Moses was interfering even when he asked for a three-day period to make a sacrifice to God. How much more so if the Israelites had tried to rest one day out of every seven. (Ex 5:1-5)

While it is true that the patriarchs apparently measured time in a week of seven days, there is no evidence that any distinction was made as to the seventh day. Seven was prominent, however, as a number that often denoted completeness. (Ge 4:15, 23, 24; 21:28-32) The Hebrew word “swear” (sha·vaʽ′) is evidently from the same root as the word meaning “seven.” " (Insight Volumes)

9. You mean like there's no command for Christians not to celebrate birthdays? Another double standard? Ok everyone, all together say "double standard" on three, ready--------one...two...three.........

There is no double standard except in your own interpretation of things.
The Pharisees did the same with Jesus, accusing him of all manner of things, including being in league with Beelzebub.

10. That's awesome!! Will you help me rob a bank tomorrow?

Being discharged from the old law didn't mean being discharged from law altogether. The law of love is still binding on Christians. (Matt 22:36-40)

11. Mat 15:28-29 Then Jesus answered and said to her, "O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour. Mat 15:29 Jesus departed from there, skirted the Sea of Galilee, and went up on the mountain and sat down there.

Huh???? I sure cant because it doesn't make any sense. What does this have to do with your point??? You may want to turn your bible right side up.

Typo sorry...that was meant to be Acts 15:28, 29.

"For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you except these necessary things: 29 to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper. Good health to you!”


I am human. Can you forgive me? :flirt:

Please note that the "necessary things" did not include a Sabbath observance for Gentile Christians.

(the condescension is quite unnecessary btw but is a sign of irritation. Sorry, but if you are feeling irritated then perhaps you should refrain from further debate? We are not here to create ill will.)

If you want to continue discussing this sabbath topic, go to the thread I posted above in Pegg's reply and we can continue there or start another thread. But as has been demonstrated, I'm not your "typical" Christian, so I hope you are biblically and mentally prepared.

LOL....We are not your "typical" Christians either, so I'm not sure whether the irresistible force and immovable object can get anywhere....

 

[dawny0826]

I think that is exactly what my post was about dawny 0862. It's OK to give at any time, but for a lot of people, there has to be a reason....it's programmed into them.

I doubt that you give gifts without there being a reason, yourself.

Certain dates or events = gifts. Some occasions are quite fine, like weddings, engagements or the birth of a new baby, but apart from those things, it has to be something that everyone else does in order to be 'acceptable'. It has suited the commercial system very well to promote these occasions and turn them into major shopping events.

How do you biblically justify giving gifts at weddings and baby showers but not at Christmas?

I agree with you on the excessiveness of the holidays. Totally with you, there. But, I've also seen more love, humility and reverence for Christ and his love on Christmas, in my personal experience, than I have at any wedding shower I've ever been to.

Again, I plead with you to consider intention, whilst agreeing with you that where there is excess, selfishness and excessivess, our priorities are not where they should be.

I remember when my children were in 5th or 6th grade and they would take some gift that I had bought them to school to show their friends and the first thing the other children would say was "what did you get that for"? My children were rather confused because our family never gave gifts for any particular reason. The children's response was part of their 'programming'. I am sure that their parents are not even aware of it.

I'm well aware of the programming that you're talking about.

We give like God gives...out of love and out of a need to bring happiness and joy to someone. The date on a calendar should not dictate when that happens.

There's nothing at all wrong with that. And I agree that a date on a calendar should not dictate charity and love.

I give gifts to my kids and grandkids all the time. It makes me happy, it makes them happy and no offense is caused to God because we followed some pagan tradition that everyone else blindly follows.

It's not a pagan tradition unless such value is attached to it.

I would love a dollar for every time I have heard someone (usually a woman) say...you can get me 'this' or 'that' for my birthday or for Christmas, or for Mother's Day.

Have you ever wanted anything in your life? Have you ever purchased anything that you wanted that wasn't a necessity?

Again, I understand the objection to this type of attitude and even agree that God probably doesn't approve. But, having a holiday with family doesn't necessarily translate to a greed fest either.

Of course that is entirely up to you. I cannot impose my conscience or my beliefs onto anyone

I don't really believe you, BECAUSE you say this:

But an untrained or misled conscience is no good to anyone who wants to please God.

Love is not arrogant or unkind.

If we don't have his view, then our own flawed human perceptions and reasoning cannot be counted on to lead us in the right direction.

When we love, we fulfill his law to the fullest.

 

[JayJayDee]

I doubt that you give gifts without there being a reason, yourself.

I assure you that once you are out of that "I must give because a date says so" mindset, gift giving becomes the pleasure it was intended to be. There are no reasons to give to my children and grandchildren apart from the fact that...
a) they need it or would enjoy it.
b) that I can afford it.
c) that it does not promote something offensive to God.

How do you biblically justify giving gifts at weddings and baby showers but not at Christmas?

Weddings are ordained by God and the celebration of wedding feasts is in the Bible. Those anniversaries find no pagan precedents and do not cause offence to God by being grafted over something else.

The celebration of Christ's birth was a one off event. Shepherds out in the fields rejoiced as the angels announced the birth of the promised Christ.

The visit of the so called "three wise men" did not take place at the stable when Jesus was born. It apparently took place about two years later, when Jesus was a "young child" (not a newborn infant) living in a house with his parents. Is is pertinent to ask who sent the star that guided them, not to Jesus but to a wicked and jealous king who then plotted to kill him. If the star had been sent by God, it would have directed them to the place where Jesus was. It did this only after Herod had hatched his plan. Jehovah foiled him but not until all the young babies two years of age and under were slaughtered by Herod's men.

The Bible does not say how many "wise men" (a nice way of saying "magi" or pagan astrologers) there were but the giving of gifts to royal children was their custom. The gifts were not refused, and there was no evil intent on their part....but neither were they given to commemorate a pagan event. They were not a birthday present.

I agree with you on the excessiveness of the holidays. Totally with you, there. But, I've also seen more love, humility and reverence for Christ and his love on Christmas, in my personal experience, than I have at any wedding shower I've ever been to.

I don't think I mentioned "showers". I was meaning wedding gifts themselves and the gifts given to parents on the birth of a child. Showers are a bit worldly but it is up to individuals to decide those things for themselves. There is no Biblical prohibition.

Actually, where I live, Christmas is an excuse to do everything the Bible condemns. There's the greed, the gluttony, the excess of alcohol, the immorality that goes on at office Christmas parties, the lies told to children about where their gifts are coming from, the domestic violence that escalates because of the divisions in the family unit, the holiday road toll.....can anything good balance out the bad that is manifested at these occasions?

Again, I plead with you to consider intention

We can fool ourselves about intentions though can't we? Justification always sounds convincing when we want to carry on doing something we enjoy....even when we know deep down that we shouldn't.

...whilst agreeing with you that where there is excess, selfishness and excessivess, our priorities are not where they should be.

That is an understatement.

I'm well aware of the programming that you're talking about.

Most people aren't.

It's not a pagan tradition unless such value is attached to it.

But what if the pagan value was attached long before humans were aware that wishes and horoscopes and candles are all tied in wit spiritism? Just because you do not want to acknowledge those origins, does not make them sanctified in God's eyes.

Have you ever wanted anything in your life? Have you ever purchased anything that you wanted that wasn't a necessity?

Absolutely. But never have I expected someone else to get it for me because I asked for it. Whatever I want or need, I calculate the expense to see if I can afford it and to ascertain if it is a need or merely a want, and then I make a decision based on that conclusion. There are many of my brothers in poorer lands who do not have a fraction of what I have materially, so I also factor that in and oftentimes end up donating that money to them. We look after our own brotherhood so that out surplus may offset their deficiency.

Again, I understand the objection to this type of attitude and even agree that God probably doesn't approve. But, having a holiday with family doesn't necessarily translate to a greed fest either.

Again you are mistaken. A holiday with family can be wonderful. It isn't the time spent, because many of us are forced to take vacations over the holiday season when many businesses close down. It is the adoption of the pagan customs associated with the original celebration that is the problem. We steer clear of those things.

When we love, we fulfill his law to the fullest.

And no one is saying that we can't show love outside of those parameters that the world has forced itself into. Slavish attachment to what is now a very commercialized secular event is not what Christians are urged to do.

All the things people love about Christmas....the family gathering for an enjoyable meal, the modest giving of gifts, etc, can be held on any day of the year.

The decorated tree is entirely pagan. The star which adorns it is also of dubious origins. It might be pretty, but I don't believe that these things are attractive to God.

Doesn't it seem ridiculous to have the whole world, even those who could care less about Jesus, celebrating an event that Christ himself would not touch?

I see a kind of 'blindness' attached to these things.....it is so clear to us, but not clear at all to those who must celebrate. Who are we worshipping at the end of the day? :bow:

 

[ChristineES]

Actually, where I live, Christmas is an excuse to do everything the Bible condemns. There's the greed, the gluttony, the excess of alcohol, the immorality that goes on at office Christmas parties, the lies told to children about where their gifts are coming from, the domestic violence that escalates because of the divisions in the family unit, the holiday road toll.....can anything good balance out the bad that is manifested at these occasions?

What??? People do that kind of thing you mention without any kind of holiday whatsoever. And you're ignoring the fact that people also do good things, such as giving food to the hungry, helping poor children, and things of that nature. I don't drink at all, not even during Christmas. There is domestic abuse, alcohol abuse, family divisions, etc during any time of the year. In this statement, it seems that you are using a holiday as a scapegoat.

 

[ChristineES]

All the things people love about Christmas....the family gathering for an enjoyable meal, the modest giving of gifts, etc, can be held on any day of the year.

Of course they can, but people don't always have the same days off to gather together. Except in retail, it seems that holidays are a day off so that people are able to get together, if nothing else.

 

[james2ko]

Seems Jeremy and others broke out the popcorn. That would indicate I have his blessing to continue with the off topic dialogue right here on this thread. So as always sit back and enjoy the "lively" discussion.

OK..I thought that the twist went out with Chubby Checker!

1. Hank Ballard was actually the one who first made the dance popular.

(showing my age now )

2. Based on your incorrect first reply, it reveals a lot more than just your age

I am assuming that you are SDA? Or hold similar beliefs?

3. No I am not. But assuming is what you seem to do best.

Can I ask you to whom the scriptures say that the Sabbath law was given? (refer to my previous post) Those who existed in patriarchal times did not hold a Sabbath. Gentiles were under no command to hold a Sabbath...so the reference to "man" being given the Sabbath was to the "Jews" as Jesus was addressing Jews when he said that and no other people were under obligation to observe the law of Moses .

4. It was given for the benefit of mankind, JD...Just as Jesus said:

Isa 56:2-4 Blessed is the man [not Jew] who does this, And the son of man who lays hold on it; Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And keeps his hand from doing any evil."
Isa 56:3 Do not let the son of the foreigner Who has joined himself to the LORD Speak, saying, "The LORD has utterly separated me from His people"; Nor let the eunuch say, "Here I am, a dry tree." 4 For thus says the LORD: "To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths, And choose what pleases Me, And hold fast My covenant,
​

No argument there. The Jews were the only ones the law applied to.

5. Wrong again, JD. See point 4

True again...but it doesn't alter the fact that the Sabbath applied ONLY to the Jews. You are creating an argument that is not supported by scripture.

6. Yet no scriptures to support your rebuttal.

On the contrary, I believe she replied very well. Since your own argument was basically unsubstantiated except by implication and reference to ambiguous scripture....it is sometimes better to leave someone to their own conclusions.

7. "...basically unsubstantiated except..."?? That's like being almost pregnant?

Worshipping on any day is fine with God. It isn't the day, its the practices and their origins carried out on that day that God objects to.

8. Since God objects based on practices and origins, then you should to stop the double standard and cease worshiping on Sunday.

You want to argue with the Bible on that one? Go ahead. You have no case....

9. Yet you still present no evidence to support your rhetoric..

You are stretching scripture again. "Jesus, being a Jew under the Law, observed the Sabbath as God’s Word (not the Pharisees) directed. He knew it was lawful to do fine things on the Sabbath. (Matt 12:12)
However, the inspired Christian writings state that “Christ is the end of the Law” (Ro 10:4), which results in Christians’ being “discharged from the Law.” (Rom 7:6) Neither Jesus nor his disciples made any distinction between so-called moral and ceremonial laws.

10. The only thing I'm stretching is my fingers for lots of typing. There had to be a distinction or it would be perfectly ok to break the other nine commandments. If Christ is the end of the ten commandments, then you and I can become Bonnie and Clyde and still be right in God's eyes.

 

[james2ko]

They quoted from the other parts of the Law as well as from the Ten Commandments and considered all of it equally binding on those under the Law. (Matt 5:21-48; 22:37-40; Rom 13:8-10; Jas 2:10, 11)

11. Could you please point out in those verses where Christ, Paul, or James state the sacrificial law and the ten commandments were equally binding?

The Scriptures plainly state that Christ’s sacrifice “abolished . . . the Law of commandments consisting in decrees” and that God “blotted out the handwritten document against us, which consisted of decrees . . . and He has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the torture stake.” It was the complete Mosaic Law that was “abolished,” “blotted out,” taken “out of the way.” (Eph 2:13-15; Col 2:13, 14)

12. The word translated “ordinances” comes from the Greek dogma (Col. 2:14, 20), which always refers to “decrees, ordinances, decisions and commands of men”. Paul is not referring
here to the commandments of God contained in the Law of God. Moreover, not once in the New Testament is dogma used in reference to the laws and commandments of God.

Consequently, the whole system of Sabbaths, be they days or years, was brought to its end with the rest of the Law by the sacrifice of Christ Jesus. This explains why Christians can esteem “one day as all others,” whether it be a sabbath or any other day, with no fear of judgment by another. (Rom 14:4-6; Col 2:16) Paul made the following expression concerning those scrupulously observing “days and months and seasons and years”: “I fear for you, that somehow I have toiled to no purpose respecting you.” (Gal 4:10, 11)" (Insight Volumes)

13. I easily refuted the JW's rendition of these two verses here (points 2 and 3).

"That the Sabbath was not enjoined upon any of God’s servants until after the Exodus is evident from the testimony of Deuteronomy 5:2, 3 and Exodus 31:16, 17: “It was not with our forefathers that Jehovah concluded this covenant, but with us.” “The sons of Israel must keep the sabbath . . . during their generations. . . . Between me and the sons of Israel it is a sign to time indefinite.” If Israel had already been observing the Sabbath, it could not have served as a reminder of their deliverance from Egypt by Jehovah, as shown at Deuteronomy 5:15. The fact that some of the Israelites went out to pick up manna on the seventh day, in spite of direct instruction to the contrary, indicates that Sabbath observance was something new. (Ex 16:11-30)

14. Contradicting yourself again? In a previous post you said:

Before the law was given, God's worshippers did not hold a weekly Sabbath.

15. Now you say the sabbath was observed prior to the law being given at Sinai in Exo 20. Hopefully one day you will make up your mind.

That there was uncertainty in handling the case of the first recorded Sabbath breaker after the Law had been given at Sinai also shows that the Sabbath had only recently been instituted. (Nu 15:32-36) While in Egypt the Israelites, being slaves, could not have kept the Sabbath even if they had been under such law at the time. Pharaoh complained that Moses was interfering even when he asked for a three-day period to make a sacrifice to God. How much more so if the Israelites had tried to rest one day out of every seven. (Ex 5:1-5)

16. If you can speculate so can I. I believe the sabbath was given to Adam, passed down through the generations to Jacob. Although the Israelites could not observe the sabbath correctly prior to their release, Moses could have reminded them about the sabbath around the same time He asked Pharaoh to allow them to sacrifice.

While it is true that the patriarchs apparently measured time in a week of seven days, there is no evidence that any distinction was made as to the seventh day. Seven was prominent, however, as a number that often denoted completeness. (Ge 4:15, 23, 24; 21:28-32) The Hebrew word “swear” (sha·vaʽ&#8242 is evidently from the same root as the word meaning “seven.” " (Insight Volumes)

17. There is historical evidence the sabbath was being observed in Africa at the time of Nimrod. This would indicate the sabbath as well as the other 9 commandments were given to Adam!

Rom_5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Gen_4:7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it."
​

We can find evidence of every single one of the ten commandment being in place throughout the book of Genesis. Cain could know sin only by revelation. The only logical conclusion one can reach with this evidence is that it was made known to Him by God's law--The ten commandments!

There is no double standard except in your own interpretation of things. The Pharisees did the same with Jesus, accusing him of all manner of things, including being in league with Beelzebub.

18. So far I have exposed two contradictions in your argument. Funny how Jesus did the same to the Pharisees.

Being discharged from the old law didn't mean being discharged from law altogether. The law of love is still binding on Christians. (Matt 22:36-40)

19. And what does love entail according to scripture? John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. What I see in Matt 22 36-40 is the first four commandments show our love toward God and the last six imply our love toward our neighbor. Jesus was merely quoting from the Old Testament (Lev 19:18; Deut 6:5) which the Israelites understood were summary statements encompassing the 10 commandments!! In no way did they believe this to mean obedience to the 10 commandments was no longer necessary!! And Christ tells us neither should we! (Mt 5:17)

Typo sorry...that was meant to be Acts 15:28, 29."For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you except these necessary things: 29 to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper. Good health to you!”I am human. Can you forgive me? Only if you Please note that the "necessary things" did not include a Sabbath observance for Gentile Christians.

20. Did not include stealing either. So which bank would you like to hit first, Bonnie?

(the condescension is quite unnecessary btw but is a sign of irritation. Sorry, but if you are feeling irritated then perhaps you should refrain from further debate? We are not here to create ill will.)

21. Why should I be irritated? I'm not the one caught in two contradictions. It seems as though you are engaged in a defense mechanism called projection: when a person unconsciously rejects his or her own unacceptable attributes by ascribing them to their opponent. Which tells me you are neither biblically nor mentally prepared..I gave you a fair warning.

LOL....We are not your "typical" Christians either, so I'm not sure whether the irresistible force and immovable object can get anywhere....

22. Looks like a NWT distortion for "I give up"?

 

[JayJayDee]

What??? People do that kind of thing you mention without any kind of holiday whatsoever.

Well I guess the fact that people do these things more on a so-called "Christian Holy Day" is more to the point. How can a Christian celebration promote things that are unchristian?

And you're ignoring the fact that people also do good things, such as giving food to the hungry, helping poor children, and things of that nature.

So you believe that the "good things" outweigh the bad things, so that makes it all OK?
Should an ostensibly "Christian" event solicit unchristian conduct from people who use it as an excuse to do everything the Bible condemns?

All the other things you mention do not need special days on a calendar, do they? Do we need an excuse to give gifts to family or friends or to have a family gathering with good food? To feed the hungry and help poor children?

Some people will not set foot inside a church except at Christmas and Easter. What do they imagine that accomplishes when God requires our attention every day of our lives?

Most people need an event or a special date as an excuse to do these things....why? It's programming.....isn't it?

I don't drink at all, not even during Christmas.

Me either. Drinking alcohol is not condemned in the scriptures, but drunkenness is. Domestic violence is. Greed is. Lying to children is. Sharing in pagan celebrations is.

There is domestic abuse, alcohol abuse, family divisions, etc during any time of the year. In this statement, it seems that you are using a holiday as a scapegoat.

The holiday is not a scapegoat....it is an excuse for many to let their hair down, so to speak. Party time.

I guess it also depends on the country you live in. Australia is very secular. There is not a lot of spiritual emphasis on these occasions for the majority. They are public holidays and an excuse to do whatever you want. For Aussies, that usually means drinking too much......more than usual that is. Holidays here are always soaked in alcohol. Our drinking culture is rather sad. It is the legal drug of choice.

Is America that different?

 

[dawny0826]

I assure you that once you are out of that "I must give because a date says so" mindset, gift giving becomes the pleasure it was intended to be. There are no reasons to give to my children and grandchildren apart from the fact that...
a) they need it or would enjoy it.
b) that I can afford it.
c) that it does not promote something offensive to God.

Ah, here we go. Whether you choose to admit it or not, you are no different from many others who gift give on holidays. The date is irrelevant, if the intention is the same.

I would imagine objection to frivolous expenditure. Purchasing something that isn't needed but is merely wanted is frivolous at the root, is it not? Doesn't matter whether you can afford it or not or whether you have a specific reason to give the gift beyond personal happiness and the happiness of the recipient. If we were all to walk the narrow path, wouldn't we be investing everything that we have to charity, save the bare mininum to provide for ourselves?

That's the problem that I have with these arguments. There's a lot of cherry picking and a lot of blanket labeling, when, at the root, it boils down to differences in biblical interpretation and application in our lives.

Stink is stink, is it not?

I might applaud you, if you didn't give non essential gifts to your loved ones from time to time. But, you do, as is expected. You're human. You're not much different than I am.

Weddings are ordained by God and the celebration of wedding feasts is in the Bible. Those anniversaries find no pagan precedents and do not cause offence to God by being grafted over something else.

Weddings. Not engagement parties or wedding showers.

The celebration of Christ's birth was a one off event. Shepherds out in the fields rejoiced as the angels announced the birth of the promised Christ.

We are to be glad in Him and rejoice always.

The visit of the so called "three wise men" did not take place at the stable when Jesus was born. It apparently took place about two years later, when Jesus was a "young child" (not a newborn infant) living in a house with his parents. Is is pertinent to ask who sent the star that guided them, not to Jesus but to a wicked and jealous king who then plotted to kill him. If the star had been sent by God, it would have directed them to the place where Jesus was. It did this only after Herod had hatched his plan. Jehovah foiled him but not until all the young babies two years of age and under were slaughtered by Herod's men.

The Bible does not say how many "wise men" (a nice way of saying "magi" or pagan astrologers) there were but the giving of gifts to royal children was their custom. The gifts were not refused, and there was no evil intent on their part....but neither were they given to commemorate a pagan event. They were not a birthday present.

This isn't what my bible says. I don't care to be told by you that my bible is wrong nor do I care to tell you the same. So, I'm going to politely skip this part, if you don't mind.

I don't think I mentioned "showers". I was meaning wedding gifts themselves and the gifts given to parents on the birth of a child. Showers are a bit worldly but it is up to individuals to decide those things for themselves. There is no Biblical prohibition.

You mentioned engagement parties. If you're gifting because of a child's birth, why would it matter if you did so at a shower, at the hospital or later?

It would be petty to attempt to make a distinguishment here, when the intention is the same.

Actually, where I live, Christmas is an excuse to do everything the Bible condemns. There's the greed, the gluttony, the excess of alcohol, the immorality that goes on at office Christmas parties, the lies told to children about where their gifts are coming from, the domestic violence that escalates because of the divisions in the family unit, the holiday road toll.....can anything good balance out the bad that is manifested at these occasions?

Everything the bible condemns? I doubt that. Even so, if you're not partaking, why should it concern you so? You're turning the other cheek from such behavior, as you've been instructed to, are you not?

We can fool ourselves about intentions though can't we? Justification always sounds convincing when we want to carry on doing something we enjoy....even when we know deep down that we shouldn't.

I could take you seriously if I was confident that you were without blemish yourself. Your overt confidence as to what's right and wrong, projects as the very type of self righteousness that we were warned about in the bible too.

That is an understatement.

Can the melodrama.

But what if the pagan value was attached long before humans were aware that wishes and horoscopes and candles are all tied in wit spiritism? Just because you do not want to acknowledge those origins, does not make them sanctified in God's eyes.

With the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, there's discernment. With anything in life, I can ask God for guidance as to whether I should or should not partake. God is a living God.

Absolutely. But never have I expected someone else to get it for me because I asked for it. Whatever I want or need, I calculate the expense to see if I can afford it and to ascertain if it is a need or merely a want, and then I make a decision based on that conclusion. There are many of my brothers in poorer lands who do not have a fraction of what I have materially, so I also factor that in and oftentimes end up donating that money to them. We look after our own brotherhood so that out surplus may offset their deficiency.

Would you kindly stop assuming that JWs are the only people on the planet capable of processing this way? If you've ever purchased anything that you don't need, you're exercising the same type of frivolity that you bash others for doing. It doesn't matter if you calculate your expenses carefully. Merely "wanting it" is also selfishness at its root, when that money could be given to God's works.

It doesn't matter how calculating you are about it or that you usually make the better choice. The fact is, you too partake in frivolity. You just find ways to justify your own, while judging others.

Again you are mistaken. A holiday with family can be wonderful. It isn't the time spent, because many of us are forced to take vacations over the holiday season when many businesses close down. It is the adoption of the pagan customs associated with the original celebration that is the problem. We steer clear of those things.

A tradition isn't a problem unless it competes with God in some way. If anything is used to glorify God or to express our love, we're fulfilling HIs law.

And no one is saying that we can't show love outside of those parameters that the world has forced itself into. Slavish attachment to what is now a very commercialized secular event is not what Christians are urged to do.

You over dramatize "slavish" attachment.

All the things people love about Christmas....the family gathering for an enjoyable meal, the modest giving of gifts, etc, can be held on any day of the year.

No joke. But, that doesn't make it any less relevant or meaningful to families who partake.

The decorated tree is entirely pagan. The star which adorns it is also of dubious origins. It might be pretty, but I don't believe that these things are attractive to God.

I don't believe that God cares if our intentions are wholesome.

Doesn't it seem ridiculous to have the whole world, even those who could care less about Jesus, celebrating an event that Christ himself would not touch?

I don't busy myself worrying about others and their meaning for celebrating holidays, as you clearly do. Sorry. I'm concerned about my own family and our hearts.

I see a kind of 'blindness' attached to these things.....it is so clear to us, but not clear at all to those who must celebrate. Who are we worshipping at the end of the day? :bow:

Be cautious of self righteousness too. Who are we reflecting when we choose to forego love and kindness?

 

[ChristineES]

All the other things you mention do not need special days on a calendar, do they? Do we need an excuse to give gifts to family or friends or to have a family gathering with good food? To feed the hungry and help poor children?

Most people do give all through the year, but a certain day makes them feel happy to do it and others, who don't normally give, will give. Nothing wrong with that (not the way I see it).

The holiday is not a scapegoat....it is an excuse for many to let their hair down, so to speak. Party time.

I am sorry but I just don't agree with that. People party at any time of the year. People don't usually need excuses when they want to over indulge in alcohol or drugs. Some people party mostly on Fridays and paydays, some go to the bars on those days. Does this mean we should do away with paydays?

So you believe that the "good things" outweigh the bad things, so that makes it all OK?
Should an ostensibly "Christian" event solicit unchristian conduct from people who use it as an excuse to do everything the Bible condemns?

That is unwarranted. There are a lot of good things that come out of Christmas. As I have already said: People party at any time of the year, people do give outside of certain holidays. But you're really missing the point. People give gifts to their friends and family because it makes them feel good to do so. I, like another person, believe that giving gifts outside of a holiday is no different than giving one because of a holiday. Both are the same: Giving something to make the other person feel better. Giving is a good thing, being kind is a good thing, singing and making people happy is a good thing. All the "evil" things you mention can also exist outside of the holiday, as I already pointed out.

You don't have to celebrate Christmas, no one will force you, but I don't think it right to condemn those who do enjoy it.

When I was a child, we lived next door to some Jehovah's Witnesses. We knew that they didn't celebrate any holidays and we accepted that. They never, ever came over to our house and told us that we were evil for doing so (although they may have believed it). They were kind, loving people who were very generous and their daughter was my best friend.

 

[JayJayDee]

Ah, here we go. Whether you choose to admit it or not, you are no different from many others who gift give on holidays. The date is irrelevant, if the intention is the same.

I am not here to tell other people what to do. Just bringing attention to the origins of celebrations that have been around so long that nobody questions them.

If you hold to a specific date to celebrate an event and include all the trappings of that original event in the celebration on that date, then it matters little how we feel about them. God was there when the original event was celebrated and he knows what people are celebrating on those days. If 2 Cor 6:14-18 doesn't get the message across, then nothing will. All I am hearing is justification and minimization. That's OK..it is your choice....but you can never claim that you weren't informed.

Carry on with your celebrations, if that is your wish...

I would imagine objection to frivolous expenditure. Purchasing something that isn't needed but is merely wanted is frivolous at the root, is it not?

I don't believe that "frivolous" is a word used in the Bible, nor do I see any command to refrain from purchasing things that are 'unnecessary' but enjoyable in themselves.

This is not what I was saying. My list is a few of the criteria I use to determine whether something is appropriate as a gift. "Needs" come first, then affordability, but these are not the only criteria. Offense to God is high on the list though.

Doesn't matter whether you can afford it or not or whether you have a specific reason to give the gift beyond personal happiness and the happiness of the recipient. If we were all to walk the narrow path, wouldn't we be investing everything that we have to charity, save the bare mininum to provide for ourselves?

The Bible itself answers that question.

"So now, also complete what you started to do, so that your readiness to act may be completed according to the means you have available. 12 For if the readiness is there first, it is especially acceptable according to what a person has, not according to what a person does not have. 13 For I do not want to make it easy for others, but difficult for you; 14 but that by means of an equalizing, your surplus at the present time might offset their need, so that their surplus might also offset your deficiency, that there may be an equalizing. 15 Just as it is written: “The person with much did not have too much, and the person with little did not have too little.” (2 Cor 8:11-15)

This seems balanced to me. It is not asking us to give out of our want, but out of our surplus and out of our hearts. Sacrifice is not sacrifice unless it costs us something. What we don't need can be shared with those who have a need that we can fill.

JW's have a World Wide fund that is designed to do just that. We have no paid clergy so congregation funds go only to the running expenses of our local Kingdom Halls. Whatever funds are donated to the World Wide Work go to the ones who are in need, whether that is for the building of Kingdom Halls in poorer nations or for disaster relief for our brothers when they have experienced the loss of their homes and possessions. It provides food and water and free labor for the rebuilding...all materials are supplied so that there is no cost to our brothers. We know that aid organizations are not creaming money off the top for administration costs.

I do not know of any global Christian body who do what we do. The people that we help once our brotherhood is taken care of, often lament that their own churches do not offer this kind of assistance.

Stink is stink, is it not?

What stinks to God doesn't always stink to man unfortunately. In a world ruled by the devil, that is not surprising.

I might applaud you, if you didn't give non essential gifts to your loved ones from time to time. But, you do, as is expected. You're human. You're not much different than I am.

No, I am not much different to anyone really but I just have a conscience that that is perhaps more sensitive because of my study of the scriptures. It is this knowledge that allows us to discern God's will. His will has to override our own.

Weddings. Not engagement parties or wedding showers.

Dawny can you tell me what pagan roots these things have? A betrothal was an engagement in Bible times. Joseph and Mary were betrothed when Mary was informed that she was pregnant.

Do wedding showers have false religious connections? These things are for individual consciences. They are not tied to a date with an event that is annually celebrated.

It is not the occasions per se, but their adoption, origins and customs that are under discussion here.

This isn't what my bible says. I don't care to be told by you that my bible is wrong nor do I care to tell you the same. So, I'm going to politely skip this part, if you don't mind.

Sorry, but for the sake of the discussion, this is an important point.

Read Matt ch 2 in your Bible and tell me how many "wise men" there were? Some Bible translations call them "magi" from which we get the word "magic". They were from the east, which is another way of saying Babylon. The magical practises of Babylon were closely connected to spiritism.

Where was Jesus found by these "wise men"? At the stable? Or in a house? The star that led them to Herod, conveniently came to a stop right above the place where Jesus was. So why did it lead them first to Herod?

Please open your eyes along with your Bible....sticking your head in the sand is not where the truth is to be found.

Read it here from the NLT....see the footnotes as well.
Matt 2:1-25 NLT - Visitors from the East - Jesus was born - Bible Gateway

Or here from the NKJV
Matt 2:1-25 NKJV - Wise Men from the East - Now after - Bible Gateway

No matter what Bible you use, if it is a faithful translation, you will see the same story. And it isn't the one you see depicted on Christmas cards or in nativity scenes at the mall.

 

[JayJayDee]

You mentioned engagement parties. If you're gifting because of a child's birth, why would it matter if you did so at a shower, at the hospital or later?

The celebrating of the birth of a child is not what is under discussion. What the issue is, is the recording of the date and the celebration of a perpetual anniversary of that birth. The Jews did not participate in such activities because this was a pagan custom, steeped in spiritistic customs and one that God forbade them to participate in. (Deut 18:9-12) That means that Jesus never sanctioned such things.

It would be petty to attempt to make a distinguishment here, when the intention is the same.

You keep coming back to intent, as if this excuses everything. It doesn't.
If the intent was all God saw, then he would not have put to death the golden calf worshippers. It was "a festival to the Lord"...the very God who had delivered them from slavery in Egypt that they were celebrating, but with the pagan practices of the Egyptians as the basis for it. God was furious and so was Moses. He threw down the stones with the 10 commandments, written by God, and smashed them to pieces.

Everything the bible condemns? I doubt that. Even so, if you're not partaking, why should it concern you so? You're turning the other cheek from such behavior, as you've been instructed to, are you not?

Do you never ask why a celebration that is intended to honor Christ, is allowed to create such dishonour in its celebration? Who is emphasised to children? Jesus or Santa Claus?

'Turning the other cheek' is for times of provocation. Being "no part of the world" is more important that just doing your own sanitized version of a pagan celebration, just because you want to keep it.

I could take you seriously if I was confident that you were without blemish yourself. Your overt confidence as to what's right and wrong, projects as the very type of self righteousness that we were warned about in the bible too.

That is an old chestnut, but I wish you would take the issue seriously. It doesn't matter what you think of me.

Jesus' disciples were told to preach to people about God's kingdom. There are certain things that preclude one from entering that arrangement. Is it self righteous to want to warn someone that what they have been led to believe as truth their whole life, is a lie? Is it a kindness to allow them to go on believing the lie?

At 1 Cor 6:9-1, Paul warns....
"Or do you not know that unrighteous people will not inherit God’s Kingdom? Do not be misled. Those who are sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, men who submit to homosexual acts, men who practice homosexuality, 10 thieves, greedy people, drunkards, revilers, and extortioners will not inherit God’s Kingdom. 11 And yet that is what some of you were. But you have been washed clean; you have been sanctified; you have been declared righteous in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God."

Paul's words state that "unrighteous" people will not inherit the kingdom....then he warns, "do not be misled". Is it self righteous to issue the same warning? If you think so, then there is little more I can say to one whose mind is set.

With the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, there's discernment. With anything in life, I can ask God for guidance as to whether I should or should not partake. God is a living God.

Absolutely true, but if the holy spirit speaks to you from a source that you disbelieve, then are you going to listen? God used Noah to tell the people of his day about his message...but no one listened. (Matt 24:36-39)

Would you kindly stop assuming that JWs are the only people on the planet capable of processing this way? If you've ever purchased anything that you don't need, you're exercising the same type of frivolity that you bash others for doing. It doesn't matter if you calculate your expenses carefully. Merely "wanting it" is also selfishness at its root, when that money could be given to God's works.

I want a lot of things. I want world peace, security, and prosperity for all, but I know it can never come from the efforts of men...not even from my own brothers. Wanting is not the problem....wanting something inappropriately will set the heart on a course of self destruction if it is not checked. (James1:13-15)

It doesn't matter how calculating you are about it or that you usually make the better choice. The fact is, you too partake in frivolity. You just find ways to justify your own, while judging others.

When did frivolity become the issue?
Jesus attended wedding feasts...do we imagine they were free from frivolity? There is nothing wrong with having a good time or celebrating appropriate occasions....it is their origins, customs and practices that are steeped in paganism that are at issue here. This continues to be sidestepped.

A tradition isn't a problem unless it competes with God in some way. If anything is used to glorify God or to express our love, we're fulfilling HIs law.

Unfortunately, the Israelites thought like that when dancing around the golden calf. :bow:

You over dramatize "slavish" attachment.

Actually, it is my own personal experience. People are slaves to traditions that have become an expensive burden to them, but all they do is continue to get into debt rather than to step out of that slavery. The annual fleecing of the masses (with one event after another competing for your money) is rather sad when you step back and see it for what it is. What else would you call it other than slavery? The whole commercial system is laughing all the way to the bank!

I don't busy myself worrying about others and their meaning for celebrating holidays, as you clearly do. Sorry. I'm concerned about my own family and our hearts.

Most people feel that way. It is entirely your choice how you conduct yourself.

Be cautious of self righteousness too. Who are we reflecting when we choose to forego love and kindness?

The messenger has no right to judge anyone...but is under obligation to deliver the message. If my concern is out of love and kindness, but is taken as a criticism, then I have no control over that.
I have merely done my job, so your judgment of me and the information I present, is entirely up to you.

 

[JayJayDee]

Most people do give all through the year, but a certain day makes them feel happy to do it and others, who don't normally give, will give. Nothing wrong with that (not the way I see it).



I am sorry but I just don't agree with that. People party at any time of the year. People don't usually need excuses when they want to over indulge in alcohol or drugs. Some people party mostly on Fridays and paydays, some go to the bars on those days. Does this mean we should do away with paydays?



That is unwarranted. There are a lot of good things that come out of Christmas. As I have already said: People party at any time of the year, people do give outside of certain holidays. But you're really missing the point. People give gifts to their friends and family because it makes them feel good to do so. I, like another person, believe that giving gifts outside of a holiday is no different than giving one because of a holiday. Both are the same: Giving something to make the other person feel better. Giving is a good thing, being kind is a good thing, singing and making people happy is a good thing. All the "evil" things you mention can also exist outside of the holiday, as I already pointed out.

You don't have to celebrate Christmas, no one will force you, but I don't think it right to condemn those who do enjoy it.

When I was a child, we lived next door to some Jehovah's Witnesses. We knew that they didn't celebrate any holidays and we accepted that. They never, ever came over to our house and told us that we were evil for doing so (although they may have believed it). They were kind, loving people who were very generous and their daughter was my best friend.

Like I said, I am not here to do anything but present information to those who may wish to hear it. If most do not want to hear it, then that is their choice.

 

[JayJayDee]

Seems Jeremy and others broke out the popcorn. That would indicate I have his blessing to continue with the off topic dialogue right here on this thread. So as always sit back and enjoy the "lively" discussion.

Had to brace myself here James. I'm not sure where you want to go with this but can I just ask whether you are part of an international brotherhood who shares your beliefs or are you one who has just come to your own conclusions through personal study and revelation?

The reason I ask is because you seem reluctant to identify your brotherhood. You already know mine so I am at a disadvantage here.

So lets start with the answer to this question and go from there.....