Christian's Birthdays and Other Holidays

[Pegg]

What we keep asking is what if they are not pagan practices. The way that we celebrate birthdays for our children and family and friends, does not come across as a pagan custom. Telling someone "Happy birthday" does not come across as a pagan custom. There is nothing remotely religious about a birthday party.

everything comes from somewhere... and if you dig a little deeper, the birthday custom is originally a pagan religious one.

My husbands family are not religious and wouldnt ever dream of being christians... but they still celebrate christmas. Do they see anything religious about christmas? No. According to them, its not christian, its just a yearly celebration where we get to have lots of food and give out presents.

What do you make of that? I find it strange that they can't see the religious nature of the celebration. I guess its easy to see if you are looking for it and easy to ignore if you are not.

 

[ChristineES]

everything comes from somewhere... and if you dig a little deeper, the birthday custom is originally a pagan religious one.

My husbands family are not religious and wouldnt ever dream of being christians... but they still celebrate christmas. Do they see anything religious about christmas? No. According to them, its not christian, its just a yearly celebration where we get to have lots of food and give out presents.

What do you make of that? I find it strange that they can't see the religious nature of the celebration. I guess its easy to see if you are looking for it and easy to ignore if you are not.

The same was true of my family. My mother was an agnostic yet we celebrated Christmas. Even if Christmas is Christian and/or Pagan, those elements weren't really celebrated in my household (unless you count the decorated tree).
And even if Christmas does have these pagan roots, that does not mean they are pagan.
I personally, being a Christian, see the celebration of Christmas as Jesus' birth (although everyone knows by now that He wasn't born in December) and Easter as the day He resurrected. Good Friday being the day He died. Not everyone sees it that way, and I have learned to accept that.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

everything comes from somewhere... and if you dig a little deeper, the birthday custom is originally a pagan religious one.

My husbands family are not religious and wouldnt ever dream of being christians... but they still celebrate christmas. Do they see anything religious about christmas? No. According to them, its not christian, its just a yearly celebration where we get to have lots of food and give out presents.

What do you make of that? I find it strange that they can't see the religious nature of the celebration. I guess its easy to see if you are looking for it and easy to ignore if you are not.

Conceivably someone's birthday customs could be religious in nature.
How ever mine are not, nor do I known any ones whose are. They are tainted in no way by any previous tribal or pagan traditions. Which I am not even sure ever existed, nor are in any way connected, except in the minds of Jw's.
Some people offer food tributes to their gods and ancestors.
I am not about to give up eating because of it.

Such tenuous argument is unfounded in any reality.

 

[savagewind]

I hear people say if God hated pagan customs once God hates them forever. But they do not consider that the laws of Israel were for keeping the nation God's nation. God's son needed a family to be born into. That is what the laws of Israel were mainly for. So he was born. 'Jehovah' found the lady Mary to carry him and the man Joseph to raise him with Mary. They were not "pagans" because of the law. Is there anyone present who expects to get pregnant with God's son?

 

[JayJayDee]

I would just like to address some points here if I may....I understand your position and hope you can understand why we try to get people to evaluate what they do from God's perspective. We know his perspective because the Bible is full of it.

I will not argue with you any further as to detail....
You have learned your syllabus very well, and I recognise all your arguments.

It isn't a syllabus Terrywoodenpic, it is the truth of God's word....plain and simple, with all the 'additions' removed...cleansed and refined through over a century of study and a searching for truth. Refinement is an ongoing process. (Matt 7:7, 8)

However when I said that the JW's use the same sources as Christians, I knew you would deny it by using those same Biblical sources.

By this are you insinuating that JW's are not "Christians" because we do not accept Christendom's teachings and celebrations?

If we cannot use Biblical sources for our defense then something is wrong, isn't it?

Do not get me wrong some of the things You believe, I also share, particularly that Jesus is the son of God. I hold the more Unitarian view that the Trinity concept is wrong. But that there is a "Relationship" between God. his Son and the Holy Spirit.

We acknowledge a "relationship" too but in a completely different context that does not require an unscriptural imported doctrine to support it.

I am aware that the JW's started out a group of Biblical scholars and have based their faith on their findings.
My problem with that, is that I do not find their understandings any more reliable than those that preceded it. The real problem is with the Bible itself. we do not even know who wrote the majority of it. We do know that a majority of the old testament came about by the decision of the Jews to write down the two oral traditions. we also know that little if any of it was written by Moses.

The New Testament fares no better. As most of it is wrongly attributed to the named authors. Even some of Paul's works can not have been written by him.

And that position leaves the Creator completely out of the picture. When it says that "ALL scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching and setting things straight"...do you then doubt this? (2 Tim 3:16, 17) Is the Creator of the universe somehow lacking in his ability to provide and preserve written instructions for his human children? Since these instructions form the basis of his judgment, why would he allow them to be tampered with?

If we cannot count on scripture as the complete word of God, then the foundation for everything we believe is undermined. What happens to a building with a weak or faulty foundation? In time or circumstance, it must collapse. (Matt 7:24-27)

None of this means that there is no truth in the Bible. It simply means it is impossible to be definitive about it, or trust that every thing written in it is true. The essence of Jesus teachings are true. The detail is certainly not.

Even the books that the various Bibles include are not universal, and vary between those chosen in the various canons.

That is why you find that it is impossible to know the truth. You have no faith in the validity of God's word mostly because in Christendom, there is no definitive truth offered. There are as many brands of "Christianity" today as there are opinions about it.

I personally no longer read Revelation, which was not even chosen by a majority, in the earliest selection.
You own Bible translation emphasises your own beliefs and interpretations, which is hardly surprising.

I personally use a variety of translations for comparison, so claiming that JW's use their own version of scripture is simply not true. I studied the Bible with JW's using my old KJV. The truth is not found in translation but in knowing the entirety of the word of God and what it teaches, as opposed to just knowing what the church party line is and doctrines formulated by them long after Jesus and his apostles died.

I do not believe that God has ever caused harm to the world. The world is an ever changing ecosystem that lives though natural change. storms, earth quakes floods and eruptions are what makes earth fertile. disease is included in the natural evolutionary process. These things are essential to the life on earth. They are not evil or works of God or of a fictional devil.
Gods love is entirely benevolent and all embracing.

I would expect a Universalist to believe nothing else. Universalism is not what the Bible teaches so you have to replace God's word with the opinions of men and the emotional appeal that all are somehow saved in the end. It's a nice thought, but it isn't what the Bible says.

Jesus did not found the Christian Church... he left that duty to Peter and the apostles to do. The church they founded exists to this day.

The church they founded basically disappeared when the last apostle died. Jesus said that the 'weeds' of apostasy would then be growing in the world along with the 'wheat'. History has proven that Jesus words have come true. Weeds do what weeds do best.....they take over and choke out the plants who should be flourishing, stealing their space and their nutrients until they barely survive. That was all to change come the harvest time, when a clear separation was to occur. (Matt 13:36-43)

They and their successors have made changes to suit the times and society in which they have lived. Change is not evil it is driver of all things.

And therein lies the basis for Christendom's existence and conduct. Change, when it is not authorized by God, becomes apostasy. The "Christianity that exists today bears little resemblance to the one founded by Jesus Christ.

over time mistakes and errors are corrected. That is the duty of a living church.

But that is just the point...the errors were not corrected. They just compounded as error was heaped upon error. The duty of the living church was not fulfilled. The weeds flourished in their failure, just as the errors of Judaism did in Jesus' day.

We could go back to the forms practised by the earliest proto-Christians as taught in the Didache, well before the compilation of the Bible. But times have moved on and we are starting from "Here" not "Then" and God is with us.

Interestingly the writers of the Didache knew nothing of the Trinity, but do refer to God, Jesus his son and the Holy Spirit.

I do not know if JW's are allowed to read it.. But there is an an excellent Text, Translation, analysis and commentary on it called "The Didache" by Aaron Milavec.

JW's are not forbidden to read historical data.

In fact there is quite a bit written about the Didache....

The Apostolic Fathers

 

[InChrist]

the problem is not with pagan people in general but with the 'religions' of pagan people. Would I eat pagan food, Yes absolutely. Would I listen to pagan music, yes for sure. Can i wear pagan created clothing styles, sure why not? But would I want to practice pagan religious customs??? No. Thats where a christian should draw the line.

So the types of things that we would object to is anything stemming from religious customs which would be displeasing to God. We are not going to mix our religion with pagan religion and that is why we take the stance we do.

I believe others have pointed out that birthdays and other celebrations are not religious practices connected in any way with paganism today. Christmas is not a religious requirement from my perspective. The Catholic Church may require it as one of their holy days of obligation which makes it religious and wrong in my view, but to simply rejoice in the birth of Christ with loved ones is not mixing anything with paganism.

well then, if you believe that God is the same, then the scriptures show us that he is against pagan religion.... so if he was against it back in ancient times, he is still against it today.

Im glad i found an organization who have worked hard to root it out.

.

Of course God is still against pagan religion today because He is against idolatry. But I believe their is a vast difference between the actual intent to practice the worship of false gods as opposed to rejoicing in life's blessing which God has bestowed and enjoying such times with family celebrations. It is this intent that I am sure God is capable of seeing... For the Lord does not see as man sees; for man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.”. I believe the scriptures indicate it is the Holy Spirit to whom we are to look for guidance... But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.John 16:13...not an organization which can become self-serving.

fear and bondage of what???

[/quote]

The Watchtower and the fear they instill of ancient pagan practices and bondage to their doctrine that rejoicing in birthdays and a loved one's life will somehow contaminate you with paganism and cause God to be displeased with you. Fear of satan's influence instead of trust and joy in the power of Almighty God over evil.

 

[Pegg]

I believe others have pointed out that birthdays and other celebrations are not religious practices connected in any way with paganism today. Christmas is not a religious requirement from my perspective. The Catholic Church may require it as one of their holy days of obligation which makes it religious and wrong in my view, but to simply rejoice in the birth of Christ with loved ones is not mixing anything with paganism.



.

Of course God is still against pagan religion today because He is against idolatry. But I believe their is a vast difference between the actual intent to practice the worship of false gods as opposed to rejoicing in life's blessing which God has bestowed and enjoying such times with family celebrations. It is this intent that I am sure God is capable of seeing... For the Lord does not see as man sees; for man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.”. I believe the scriptures indicate it is the Holy Spirit to whom we are to look for guidance... But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.John 16:13...not an organization which can become self-serving.

The Watchtower and the fear they instill of ancient pagan practices and bondage to their doctrine that rejoicing in birthdays and a loved one's life will somehow contaminate you with paganism and cause God to be displeased with you. Fear of satan's influence instead of trust and joy in the power of Almighty God over evil.

i think there are far more people held bondage to the fear instilled by pagan religious ideas.... what do catholics fear most? Is it not being left in pergatory or suffering in eternal hellfire? I think so.

freeing oneself of pagan religions and its ideas is what brings freedom from such fear. And if it was pagan religions who gave us such horrid beliefs, then why would anyone want to continue to practice those same religious customs? It makes little sense to me. Of course people are free to do so...im just glad that there is at lease one organization on earth where those things are not practised.

 

[InChrist]

i think there are far more people held bondage to the fear instilled by pagan religious ideas.... what do catholics fear most? Is it not being left in pergatory or suffering in eternal hellfire? I think so.

freeing oneself of pagan religions and its ideas is what brings freedom from such fear. And if it was pagan religions who gave us such horrid beliefs, then why would anyone want to continue to practice those same religious customs? It makes little sense to me. Of course people are free to do so...im just glad that there is at lease one organization on earth where those things are not practised.

What about fear of losing a loved one who can't have a blood transfusion, dying at Armageddon, facing a judicial committee, or disfellowshiping?

Fear and bondage can come from any false teachings of any religious group, but what does this have to do with celebrating birthdays? I don't see the connection you are trying to make with religious ideas and celebrating a loved one's birthday.

 

[Pegg]

What about fear of losing a loved one who can't have a blood transfusion, dying at Armageddon, facing a judicial committee, or disfellowshiping?

the hope of the resurrection is stronger then the fear of death. Death is not permanent so what is there to fear?? If you know the truth, the truth will set you free.

We are all accountable for our actions, and so if we disobey God, then yes, we should be fearful of the outcome as Hebrews says at Heb 10:26 For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, 27 but there is a certain fearful expectation of judgment and a burning indignation that is going to consume those in opposition.

Fear and bondage can come from any false teachings of any religious group, but what does this have to do with celebrating birthdays? I don't see the connection you are trying to make with religious ideas and celebrating a loved one's birthday.

the connection is that it is still a religious custom from a religion which God commanded his people to keep separate from.

If you think God is happy with people adopting the customs of such religions, then by all means go ahead and adopt them. But we will follow the bibles directive on the matter and refrain.

In the end, it is God who will judge the matter and each needs to be prepared to accept responsibility for the decisions they have made because we will all be held to account.

 

[ChristineES]

What I hear being insinuated is that God has very little patience for misconceptions. If I go by Jesus' teachings, it really isn't true, the way I see it. For one thing, if there was any chance of any of us being perfect, then God would not have sent Jesus at all. With such teachings as "What is impossible for man is possible for God" when asked "who then can be saved?", it appears that Jesus didn't expect us to be perfect either.

Some other things to keep in mind: Jesus forgave Simon (Peter) for denying him three times. God forgave Thomas for doubting Him and questioning Him. And so many more examples.

I believe that God is more merciful than we humans.

 

[JayJayDee]

What I hear being insinuated is that God has very little patience for misconceptions.

No, actually there is no misconception. Once a person knows the truth about how God views something, then if they treat it as if it doesn't matter, it becomes full blown disobedience. No matter how small....a lie is still a lie and false worship is false worship.

When Christians were held for entertainment in the Roman arenas, all they had to do to walk free was place a pinch of incense on the alter as an act of worship to the emperor....they refused. It was a small thing that could have saved them and their children, but they chose an awful death rather than do something that was offensive to their God.

If I go by Jesus' teachings, it really isn't true, the way I see it. For one thing, if there was any chance of any of us being perfect, then God would not have sent Jesus at all. With such teachings as "What is impossible for man is possible for God" when asked "who then can be saved?", it appears that Jesus didn't expect us to be perfect either.

Do we have to be perfect to be obedient? I do not see anywhere in the Bible that states we must be perfect....BUT there is a scripture that says we must be "holy". What does that mean? (1Pet 1:16) It means to be 'clean' in God's eyes. Spiritual cleanness is essential otherwise we cannot be taken in as "sons and daughters" of the true God. (2 Cor 6:14-18)

Some other things to keep in mind: Jesus forgave Simon (Peter) for denying him three times. God forgave Thomas for doubting Him and questioning Him. And so many more examples.

Were any of those things wilful and deliberate acts of disobedience, in full knowledge of the offence? Did Peter continue to deny his master, or was he repentant? Was Thomas' doubt understandable under the circumstances? Did he continue to doubt once he was shown the proof?

A man who escaped slavery in Egypt, joined his nation in agreeing to obey God's law. Knowing that no work was to be done on the Sabbath, he probably reasoned that picking up some firewood on the Sabbath was a small thing, but he was put to death, not for picking up sticks, but for wilful disobedience to God's law.

Did Jesus forgive Judas? What about the Pharisees, were they forgiven?

I believe that God is more merciful than we humans.

Do you understand what God's mercy actually is? He is not merciful towards those who are unrepentant sinners. When penalties were carried out according to the law, no mercy was shown when there was no excuse for committing it in the first place. Those who treat God's laws and worship with disrespect will account to him.

This is all we are trying to tell you. :sad:

 

[InChrist]

t

We are all accountable for our actions, and so if we disobey God, then yes, we should be fearful of the outcome as Hebrews says at Heb 10:26 For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, 27 but there is a certain fearful expectation of judgment and a burning indignation that is going to consume those in opposition.

I think this is a perfect example of taking a verse out of its context to support the unbiblical Watchtower stance against birthdays. The entire passage and the point of the book of Hebrews is the New Covenant and the greatness of Christ’s sacrifice and it’s superiority over the Levitical system of animal sacrifice which was only a foreshadow. The verse you have used is a specific warning about apostasy or turning away from the knowledge of the truth about Jesus Christand insulting the Spirit of grace by reverting back to the Levitical religious system of works. One who turns from Christ is warned they will face the judgment of the living God because there is no other acceptable sacrifice for their sin without Christ. This has nothing to do with associating birthdays with sin or any concept that refraining from birthday celebrations falls under “knowledge of truth”. The Watchtower may attempt to attach some connection to birthdays and God’s judgment to control and instill fear in the lives of members, but it’s a misuse of the scripture.
Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,”says the Lord.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (Hebrews 10:29-31)

the connection is that it is still a religious custom from a religion which God commanded his people to keep separate from.

You said earlier in a previous post...
“Would I eat pagan food, Yes absolutely. Would I listen to pagan music, yes for sure. Can i wear pagan created clothing styles, sure why not? But would I want to practice pagan religious customs??? No. Thats where a christian should draw the line.”

So how do you know certain foods you may eat were not part of any pagan religious practices? Or certain types of music or clothing used or worn in pagan rituals? Should not the line be drawn at the point of actually worshiping another god or practicing a pagan religion?

If you think God is happy with people adopting the customs of such religions, then by all means go ahead and adopt them. But we will follow the bibles directive on the matter and refrain.

I do not think God is concerned about customs, per se. I do think God is concerned and not happy about sin. And I do think He is concerned and is never happy with false religion or false gods. I believe the Bible makes a distinction between customs and sin.

n the end, it is God who will judge the matter and each needs to be prepared to accept responsibility for the decisions they have made because we will all be held to account.

[/quote]

This is true. I also think it is true that leaders will be held accountable for putting undue and extra-biblical burdens on their congregations.

 

[InChrist]

No, actually there is no misconception. Once a person knows the truth about how God views something, then if they treat it as if it doesn't matter, it becomes full blown disobedience. No matter how small....a lie is still a lie and false worship is false worship.

When Christians were held for entertainment in the Roman arenas, all they had to do to walk free was place a pinch of incense on the alter as an act of worship to the emperor....they refused. It was a small thing that could have saved them and their children, but they chose an awful death rather than do something that was offensive to their God.

The emperors of Rome demanded worship as if they were gods. The early Christians chose death rather than worship a false god because they knew, loved and belonged to the true God. I guess what you are basically saying or what you must believe from Watchtower teachings is that having a birthday celebration with loved ones equals false worship or worshiping a false god. Is that how you see it?

 

[JayJayDee]

The emperors of Rome demanded worship as if they were gods. The early Christians chose death rather than worship a false god because they knew, loved and belonged to the true God. I guess what you are basically saying or what you must believe from Watchtower teachings is that having a birthday celebration with loved ones equals false worship or worshiping a false god. Is that how you see it?

First of all can I make something clear to you?

The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is a Bible society, like many others. It prints and distributes Bibles and Bible literature all over the world. We are not the Watchtower. We are Jehovah's Witnesses. Jehovah has always had his witnesses. (Heb 12:1; Isa 43:10)

We have a governing body who directs our spiritual education and helps us to understand the Bible. God has always provided such men in this capacity. (Heb 13:17)
If you belong to a specific church, then you will rely on that church to guide and direct you in your worship too.

We all have our worship influenced by someone. Or did you formulate your own beliefs all by yourself?

There is no doubt that the birthday celebrations that are common today still retain all the customs of the original celebrations. All of them were adopted from pagan religious practices. The birthdate was recorded for the sole purpose of casting horoscopes. The candles, the cake, the wishes, the gifts....all had false religious significance.

Since there are no birth dates recorded in all of scripture and since Jews in ancient times did not celebrate birthdays because of their connection with false worship, it is our position that these things should be avoided.

No one is forcing anyone to abandon what they have done all their lives in ignorance, but with knowledge about these things, some will see it for what it is and will dispense with it.

Can you deny the connection or are you just trying to make light of it?

Are you saying that the God who hated these celebrations enough to forbid his people to participate in them back then, says it's ok to celebrate them now because the he has changed his mind about them?

Do you really believe that?

 

[Pegg]

I think this is a perfect example of taking a verse out of its context to support the unbiblical Watchtower stance against birthdays. The Watchtower may attempt to attach some connection to birthdays and God’s judgment to control and instill fear in the lives of members, but it’s a misuse of the scripture.
Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,”says the Lord.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (Hebrews 10:29-31)

ha, thats funny. You just had a go at me for apparently taking a scripture out of context, then you took everything i said out of context and put a new twist to it. Cute.

The scripture i posted was in answer to your questions:

What about fear of losing a loved one who can't have a blood transfusion, dying at Armageddon, facing a judicial committee, or disfellowshiping?

That scripture shows that its perfectly normal to have a certain fear of Gods judgements for the decisions we make. If i make the decision to practice anything i know is condemned by God, then i should consider the consequences of that dont you think? Or will I be free from blame simply because i chose not to consider the practice to harmless fun?

You said earlier in a previous post...
“Would I eat pagan food, Yes absolutely. Would I listen to pagan music, yes for sure. Can i wear pagan created clothing styles, sure why not? But would I want to practice pagan religious customs??? No. Thats where a christian should draw the line.”

So how do you know certain foods you may eat were not part of any pagan religious practices? Or certain types of music or clothing used or worn in pagan rituals? Should not the line be drawn at the point of actually worshiping another god or practicing a pagan religion?

and now you did it again... notice how you underlined 'customs' above, but really I had clarified the sorts of customs i was referring to by including the word 'religious' before it. So i was speaking specifically about religious customs is where we should draw the line.

is clothing religious? No. Everyone wears it. I like sari's for example...its a style of clothing created and worn by pagans (non isrealites) and it has nothing to do with religion.....unless its a special outfit especially for religious ceremonies, then i wouldnt were that type. But the every day sari worn by women in many parts of the world is perfectly fine imo.

This is true. I also think it is true that leaders will be held accountable for putting undue and extra-biblical burdens on their congregations.

I always found christmas to be a bit of a burden. Its become so commercialised now that it is a very stressful, and expensive, time for people and its the one time of the year when suicides are at their highest.

Yes, some things are a burden to people. And what about poor families who can't afford many gifts? How do you think they feel about christmas...their kids are at school and all their friends are talking about what they want for christmas and these poor kids know they probably wont be getting anything for christmas because they live with a single parent who has no job and they living in the basement of a relatives home because they have no home of their own.

Burdens? Yes. There are many of them.

 

[savagewind]

Once a person knows the truth about how God views something, then if they treat it as if it doesn't matter, it becomes full blown disobedience.

Who knows the truth about how God views anything? I believe God alone is able to decide how God views things. When did Jesus ever say "this is what God thinks?" Jehovah's Witnesses say it all the time. Even when Jesus referred to anything about The Law he never said "Jehovah says" or "Jehovah made to write". But JWs say it all the time. It is a basis of their faith. Who are they patterned after? Jesus says "nobody knows the day or the hour" about when God will act. If nobody knows the time of judgement then nobody knows the criteria for judgement. Now the governing body say they know the way of the sheep and the goats. How are they able to know? And why after all this time (6000 years - it is assumed) does God reveal the secret of "how God feels" to the select few of imperfect men in whom you have put all your trust, when God did not even reveal it to God's own son?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

It isn't a syllabus Terrywoodenpic, it is the truth of God's word....plain and simple, with all the 'additions' removed...cleansed and refined through over a century of study and a searching for truth. Refinement is an ongoing process. (Matt 7:7, 8)

I read that as being a syllabus.

By this are you insinuating that JW's are not "Christians" because we do not accept Christendom's teachings and celebrations?

I am not insinuating anything
All Trinitarian churches including the Anglican Church, Catholics and Orthodox. consider JW's to be Heretical. They would perhaps include Jw's under the umbrella of God's church universal. But not as Christian.

My own view as being somewhat heretical my self, would be that JW's subscribe to a minimum requirement to call them selves Christian, But as they are strictly monotheistic it is only by association.

If we cannot use Biblical sources for our defense then something is wrong, isn't it?

You may have noticed I do not use Bible Quotes as argument. I do not consider the Bible to be sufficiently reliable. (As I have previously explained.)

The Bible, in my opinion, does not provide any one with a "defence" nor does faith need any defence.

We acknowledge a "relationship" too but in a completely different context that does not require an unscriptural imported doctrine to support it.

And that position leaves the Creator completely out of the picture. When it says that "ALL scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching and setting things straight"...do you then doubt this? (2 Tim 3:16, 17) Is the Creator of the universe somehow lacking in his ability to provide and preserve written instructions for his human children? Since these instructions form the basis of his judgment, why would he allow them to be tampered with?

When he wrote that the Bible was not compiled and it is a similar argument that Muslims use to prove that the Quran is uncorrupted word of God. (because it says so) A statement can not prove itself.

If we cannot count on scripture as the complete word of God, then the foundation for everything we believe is undermined. What happens to a building with a weak or faulty foundation? In time or circumstance, it must collapse. (Matt 7:24-27)

Then you certainly have a problem of faith

That is why you find that it is impossible to know the truth. You have no faith in the validity of God's word mostly because in Christendom, there is no definitive truth offered. There are as many brands of "Christianity" today as there are opinions about it.

If I knew some thing was God's word I would believe it.

I personally use a variety of translations for comparison, so claiming that JW's use their own version of scripture is simply not true. I studied the Bible with JW's using my old KJV. The truth is not found in translation but in knowing the entirety of the word of God and what it teaches, as opposed to just knowing what the church party line is and doctrines formulated by them long after Jesus and his apostles died.

They have done no different to any other church They have established their own truth. as we all do.

I would expect a Universalist to believe nothing else. Universalism is not what the Bible teaches so you have to replace God's word with the opinions of men and the emotional appeal that all are somehow saved in the end. It's a nice thought, but it isn't what the Bible says.

The Bible does not teach.
It is an incomplete scriptural resource.

The church they founded basically disappeared when the last apostle died. Jesus said that the 'weeds' of apostasy would then be growing in the world along with the 'wheat'. History has proven that Jesus words have come true. Weeds do what weeds do best.....they take over and choke out the plants who should be flourishing, stealing their space and their nutrients until they barely survive. That was all to change come the harvest time, when a clear separation was to occur. (Matt 13:36-43)
And therein lies the basis for Christendom's existence and conduct. Change, when it is not authorized by God, becomes apostasy. The "Christianity that exists today bears little resemblance to the one founded by Jesus Christ.

You do church scholars a disservice. All religions change over time (even the teachings of the JW's are not fixed) Christendom is constantly changing so that society can better serve God. There is nothing evil in such change, it is based on the love of God and faith.

But that is just the point...the errors were not corrected. They just compounded as error was heaped upon error. The duty of the living church was not fulfilled. The weeds flourished in their failure, just as the errors of Judaism did in Jesus' day.

I acknowledge errors and not all have yet been corrected.

JW's are not forbidden to read historical data.

In fact there is quite a bit written about the Didache....

The Apostolic Fathers

I suggest you read the didache.... That link only says it was an anonymous writing of the Apostolic Fathers and gives no details at all.

If you do you will find that it is not scripture at all but a training manual for "Apprentice" new gentile converts to the Jewish Christian movement.
However it gives a very clear insight into their organisation and beliefs.

I would say it is essential reading for anyone wanting to understand the church at the time of the apostles.

 

[savagewind]

The Bible does not teach.
It is an incomplete scriptural resource.

Right! Teach is a verb. The Bible is not something that can act on it's own. I was thinking the same thing whenever they say "the Bible says" which is all the time. To know what Christ says and to know what the Bible says are different because Christ lives but the Bible is a thing and does not live.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Jw's might feel I am being hard on them in my replies.
however that it not the whole story.
I admire their commitment and their faith in God.

However I abhor their belief that the Bible holds only the true word of God. or that it is with out error, make believe, or is complete. Or that it can be used to establish what is the will of God. Or indeed be used to divine the truth of things to come.

The Bible is not an oracle.

I do not agree with their obsessions about legacy old religions being incorporated into Christianity,
it is as if by denigrating other branches of Christianity, they can somehow strengthen their own position.

 

[JayJayDee]

Who knows the truth about how God views anything? I believe God alone is able to decide how God views things. When did Jesus ever say "this is what God thinks?" Jehovah's Witnesses say it all the time. Even when Jesus referred to anything about The Law he never said "Jehovah says" or "Jehovah made to write". But JWs say it all the time. It is a basis of their faith. Who are they patterned after?

"But a physical man does not accept the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually. 15 However, the spiritual man examines all things, but he himself is not examined by any man. 16 For “who has come to know the mind of Jehovah, so that he may instruct him?” But we do have the mind of Christ." (1 Cor 2:14-16)

How do we come to know the Father? Through the teachings of his Christ. So, we "do have the mind of Christ." How did the first century Christians 'have the mind of Christ' after his death and resurrection? Through the teachings of the apostles, who got it 'straight from the horses mouth', so to speak. How do we today 'have the mind of Christ'? Through those same teachings...where do we find them? In the same place as the first century Christians did....

Is this rocket science? Seriously. How many times did the apostles quote the Hebrew writers?
How many times did Jesus say..."it is written"?

Written where?

Jesus says "nobody knows the day or the hour" about when God will act. If nobody knows the time of judgement then nobody knows the criteria for judgement.

We all know the criteria for judgment...it is clearly stated. "Doing the will of the Father" as opposed to doing the will of "self", is the criteria. (Matt 7:21-23)

Now the governing body say they know the way of the sheep and the goats. How are they able to know? And why after all this time (6000 years - it is assumed) does God reveal the secret of "how God feels" to the select few of imperfect men in whom you have put all your trust, when God did not even reveal it to God's own son?

Since Jesus is about to fulfill his role as judge of all the world, I'm fairly sure he is fully informed of the timetable now. It was only when in the flesh that the Father had not yet revealed the timing.

God never leaves his people without direction. Ever since he formed Israel into a nation, they have been led by human representatives, who in turn conveyed God's instruction to his people. Did this change with Christianity? No it didn't.

Read the account in Matt 25:41-46.....then ask yourself, 'do the "goats" know that they are goats'?

They are clueless. Why are they clueless? Because they choose to be. (2 Thess 2:9-12)

Do people know how to discern the difference between the "wheat" and the "weeds"?

Since 'the harvest' was to occur only in "the time of the end", this is the time when a separation must take place. This is the time to reveal the final scenario of the identity of the weeds and the empire to which they belong..."Babylon the great". This is why God's "people" need to remove themselves from this global empire of the devil's making. (Rev 18:4, 5)

The "faithful and discreet slave" are 'feeding' the household of Christ's disciples "food at the proper time". (Matt 24:45-47) If you choose not to feed at that table, then that is entirely up to you.

Choices have consequences and we are just here to remind those who think that God speaks directly to them without the need for human representatives, that this not the way he has ever dispensed truth to his assembled people.

We all choose which camp we favor, but we have to remember that there are only two.
There is only right and wrong...true and false....wheat and weeds. Two roads...one leads to life, the other to death. So the decisions we must make are narrowed down somewhat in what appears to be a minefield of choices. In reality most of the choices are between false and false....it leads one out of the frying pan and into the fire....just as the devil planned.

Satan is more crafty than most give him credit for...what a pity, because God has forewarned us about his agenda. (2 Cor 2:11) His "angel of light" trick had fooled a lot of people. (2 Cor 11:14, 15)

Most of the spiritually minded are too busy looking to find a belief system that suits themselves and their own needs, rather than looking for one prescribed by the Creator himself. The road to life is cramped and narrow and the going is tough for those willing to walk the walk that Jesus told them to take. When the going gets tough, we have to respond like Job, not Jonah.

God has his own agenda and we need to fit into that....there is no other choice that leads to salvation. He chooses the citizens of his kingdom on the basis of their obedience and submission to his rules.

Just putting it out there....