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Christian's Birthdays and Other Holidays

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
Except circumcision and the temple sacrifices, right?
Circumcision was required under the law but was not practiced among Jehovah's people before the law was given.

Gen 17:10, 11..."This is my covenant between me and you, that you and your offspring after you will keep: Every male among you must get circumcised. You must circumcise the flesh of your foreskins, and it will serve as a sign of the covenant between me and you."

It was a sign of the covenant between God and the Jewish people. It was not incumbent upon Gentiles.

The temple sacrifices were a shadow of the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
Animal sacrifices were necessary on a regular basis because forgiveness was granted temporarily by the blood of the animal. It was a constant reminder of their sinful state and a pictorial example of the sacrifice to come, which would be offered once for all time....never needing to be repeated. (Rom 6:10)

Why, if the Jews are still under the law, are there no animal sacrifices made now?

Their excuse is that there is no temple, so sacrifices offered elsewhere are not acceptable. Prayer is now substituted for sacrifice, but as Paul stated "unless blood is poured out, no forgiveness takes place" (Heb 9:22)

I think they perhaps should ask themselves why there is no temple, and why human tradition is substituted for God's word? I believe that Christendom has fallen victim to the same mentality. :eek:

The Straight Dope: Why do Jews no longer sacrifice animals?
 

InChrist

Free4ever
the WT has done a fine job in highlighting the pagan religious practices associated with common celebrations of today. and you dont really have to go too far to find out what the association is....there is a myriad of works by historians who have researched such things and that is where we get our information from.

Because everything on this earth has at one time or another been connected to paganism I certainly have no disagreement that there is plenty of information available through historians with regard to a huge variety of customs and such association. What concerns me is the obvious fascination that the Watchtower has with paganism.

yeah of course... these celebrations were normal to us to. But it was through further study, the desire to bring ourselves into harmony with the bibles laws and the will to offer God the best possible form of worship we could which caused us to change our views. We've made progressive improvements over the years and thats what religions should be working toward don't you think?
No, I don’t, the scriptures show that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. You’ve brought up an important issue, though. Religions are truly all about work and striving to bring about self-improvement and change in an attempt to get the participant to reach God’s standard. Futile effort IMO and from what I see set forth in the scriptures. The scriptures show that it is only through God's grace and the righteousness of Jesus Christ applied to the believer's life that anyone is changed and capable of truly worshiping God, not our efforts and religions.So when I see religions and organizations which claim to have the truth, but keep changing their rules I see a red flag warning of falsehood, deception, and wolves in sheep's clothing.



marriage was inspired by God...he brought Adam and Eve together so marriage was a custom designed by God himself. Satan had nothing to do with it.

But all other pagan 'religious' practices came from Satan and were in opposition to God and true worship. Thats why we view them the way we do.
[/quote]


Birth and life were also designed by God and God only, satan had nothing to do with creating life. I appreciate what seems to be your personal desire to obey God and remain free from things connected with paganism. But why not rejoice and give the Creator God the praise and glory due Him instead of letting the Watchtower lead you into focusing on evil and paganism, and living in fear and bondage?
 

Jeremy Mason

Well-Known Member
Circumcision was required under the law but was not practiced among Jehovah's people before the law was given.

Gen 17:10, 11..."This is my covenant between me and you, that you and your offspring after you will keep: Every male among you must get circumcised. You must circumcise the flesh of your foreskins, and it will serve as a sign of the covenant between me and you."

It was a sign of the covenant between God and the Jewish people. It was not incumbent upon Gentiles.

The temple sacrifices were a shadow of the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
Animal sacrifices were necessary on a regular basis because forgiveness was granted temporarily by the blood of the animal. It was a constant reminder of their sinful state and a pictorial example of the sacrifice to come, which would be offered once for all time....never needing to be repeated. (Rom 6:10)

Why, if the Jews are still under the law, are there no animal sacrifices made now?

Their excuse is that there is no temple, so sacrifices offered elsewhere are not acceptable. Prayer is now substituted for sacrifice, but as Paul stated "unless blood is poured out, no forgiveness takes place" (Heb 9:22)

I think they perhaps should ask themselves why there is no temple, and why human tradition is substituted for God's word? I believe that Christendom has fallen victim to the same mentality. :eek:

The Straight Dope: Why do Jews no longer sacrifice animals?

It was just that you said,

Christians are under the law of love. It is not possible to break a single Mosaic law without breaking that law of love.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3681916-post178.html

It's obvious that there are some Mosaic laws that are not required by christians, right?
 
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Jeremy Mason

Well-Known Member
The truth is the law came first, then came love. You are telling us love came first then came law. That is not correct.

Where does the Bible say that the law came first, then love. God is the source of love and He created all things through love.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Where does the Bible say that the law came first, then love. God is the source of love and He created all things through love.

The law was, is, for sinners. How can the law be created by love? It would mean God loves sin.

The Bible does not say the law came first but it does illustrate that love came after the law.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
The law was, is, for sinners. How can the law be created by love? It would mean God loves sin.

The Bible does not say the law came first but it does illustrate that love came after the law.


I believe that since God is Love, then love has existed from all eternity and it actually was out of love that God created the law in the first place. I think it can get confusing if one does not consider that God has dealt in different ways with different groups of people during various times through history. He gave Israel the Mosaic Law to live by to lift up the standard of His righteousness to the nations, reveal sin, and point to the necessity of a Savior. As Paul states to tutor us or teach us our need for a Savior and bring us to Christ. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.( Galatians 3:24).

I see the scriptures showing that Jesus Christ has fulfilled the requirements of the law we are in the church age or age of grace whereby the righteousness of Christ is applied to the life of the believer by God's grace when received by faith. Since this was God's plan from the before the foundation of the world and He promised to send a Savior/Messiah well before the Mosaic Covenant/Law then salvation has always been by His grace. Yet, the Law represents God's perfect standard which is eternal and points all Jews or non-Jews to the One who met the requirements of the Law completely on our behalf so that we are free to now live by the Spirit in Christ. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. (Romans 8:2)

 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If the law was based on love Adam had to have sinned. If he had not sinned then something of love would be missing and that is not possible.
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
It's obvious that there are some Mosaic laws that are not required by christians, right?

And you're nit pickin, right? :facepalm:

Circumcision was the sign of a covenant only with the Jews, so should we expect that law to be incumbent on Gentiles? The apostles had to adjudicate on this issue because Jewish believers felt that all worshippers of Jehovah should be circumcised. The holy spirit led the discussion and a decision was reached. No circumcision was required for Gentiles though some choose it for hygienic reasons.

There are exceptions obviously. :D
 

Jeremy Mason

Well-Known Member
The law was, is, for sinners. How can the law be created by love? It would mean God loves sin.

The Bible does not say the law came first but it does illustrate that love came after the law.

I disagree. Can you show me any verses that say the law preceded the love of God. I'll even meet you halfway and say that love and the law have always existed. :)
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I disagree. Can you show me any verses that say the law preceded the love of God. I'll even meet you halfway and say that love and the law have always existed. :)

Nothing proceeded the love of God. I'm talking about love manifested on Earth. Jeesh. What law always existed? What came first? The law or Jesus?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Ok, now we are getting somewhere.




I'm going to say Jesus.

OK Jesus came first. I'll give you that. But the act of love did not proceed the law. The act of love was Jesus manifesting God's will on Earth.

The law proceeded out of God's will to save the Earth which is love, of course. But it was not saved until Jesus finished his ministry.
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
Please excuse the length of this, but you raised many good points.

That is what the Jews believed But Christians are not Jews.
The leader of the Christian faith was born and raised as a Jew. He died as a Jew and all his apostles and other Bible writers were Jewish.

Jesus did not come to start a new religion. He came to clean up and improve on the old one....to take them into new age. It was not a different God he was teaching about, but one that the Jewish people had lost sight of. As a result, the people themselves were lost and Jesus came to find those "lost sheep of the house of Israel". His preaching was to be concentrated only on the Jews who would accept him as Messiah. Only a remnant would respond.

God probably does not change. but what men believe about him is constantly changing.
And therein lies the problem. It is men who change God into something he is not and never has been. Jesus worshipped the God of Israel, but Israel changed him into a nameless deity who had such strict laws, that no one had a hope of keeping them. They were a weighty millstone around the necks of the common people and they simply gave up.

What was Jesus' appeal to them? "My yoke is kindly and my load is light"....just the "refreshment" that these humble ones needed.

Jesus was more than Just Jewish he was the Son of God.
The Jewish nation could never come to terms with that notion. Even claiming to be God's son was blasphemous to them. They reject the idea to this day.

But do you see what Christendom then did with that idea? Instead of leaving it at the "son of God" they turned Jesus into "God the Son", making him into a deity equal with his Father. This is truly blasphemous. Nowhere in scripture does Jesus ever claim equality with his own God.

God knows these things He does not have to wait to find out.

Look what Jehovah said to King David..."I will give you insight and instruct you in the way you should go. I will give you advice with my eye upon you. Do not become like a horse or a mule, without understanding, Whose spiritedness must be controlled with a bridle or a halter Before it will come near to you.” (Psalm 32:8, 9)

He is observing all of us to see if we will do as he commands without being forced. Obedience is all he has ever asked of us since the beginning. He gives each one an opportunity to get to know him, not as he is painted by some religious system, but how he is represented by his perfect son.

We only know what our Birth and society teaches us. That includes the JW teachings.
That used to be true once, but not now. People have at their fingertips all the information they need to make informed decisions. Add to that the global preaching of the good news in obedience to Christ's commission (Matt 24:14; 28:19, 20) and the whole world has no excuse NOT to know the truth. This "witness" is the basis for judgment. (2 Thess 1:6-9)

Jesus said we would 'know the truth' and that it would 'set us free'. What was the freedom that he provided to those Jews of the first century who followed him? Freedom, not from the yoke of Rome as they had been mistakenly led to believe about their Messiah, but freedom from religious falsehood that acted like shackles around their feet, preventing them from identifying the true Messiah and what his kingdom really was.

If I was to ask you to tell me, what is the kingdom of God? How would you answer from the scriptures? Can you tell me plainly and without ambiguity what God's kingdom is and how it "comes"? (Matt 6:9, 10)

How we worship is how we have been taught, it is all we can know.
Not any more. Jesus proved that a religious system that claimed to worship the true God can be gravely in error. Jesus also stated the same of many of his own followers when it comes time for the judgment. (Matt 7:21-23) obviously they judge themselves as Christians, but he tells them he has never known them. They were never acceptable to him. :(

While God is true, all else is supposition either by us or previous generations.
JW teachings are no different and derive from the same source works.
No we do not derive our teachings from the same sources at all.

In harmony with Dan 12:9, 10..."Then he said: “Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end. Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand."

We believe that in this "time of the end" God has refined and cleansed a people to whom he has granted understanding because they accepted the cleansing and refining with humility and obedience. They meticulously went through every doctrine of Christendom and compared it to what the Bible actually taught. They were amazed at how many false doctrines the church had introduced over the centuries.
The wicked, God said, would continue to act as they always had. These would understand nothing.

How we live our lives is important to God's purpose.
It is reasonable to suppose he would favour protecting the Earth and all that is in it.
Has God protected the earth? Look at all the natural disasters and weird weather events of the past few decades. Look at the toll that pollution of the oceans and the land has taken on Mother Earth. She and her creatures are groaning as never before. :sad4:

Is it a coincidence that John in the Revelation says that "...the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time came for the dead to be judged and to reward your slaves the prophets and the holy ones and those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth." (Rev 11:18)

Interestingly, the human race did not have the capacity to "ruin the earth" when that was written. They sure do now. :facepalm:

It is also reasonable to suppose that he would approve of us improving our minds by learning and endeavour for the benefit of the world. I am sure the minutiae of Jewish and Christian law is as nothing to him.
I am sure he cares not at all which church we follow.

This world is ruled by the devil. Jesus could have fixed it up when he was here on earth, but he never interfered with the politics of the day, nor did he instruct his followers to pursue higher education. Neither Jesus, nor any of his 12 apostles were graduates of the rabbinical schools. The Pharisees balked at this. (John 7:15) Only Paul was 'educated'. Even then, there is no admonition to benefit the world in any other way, than by offering people the good news of God's kingdom.

For JW's we do not see pursuing higher education as guaranteeing a successful career. Here in Australia, so many university graduates cannot get jobs because there is little work available in their chosen field and they are overqualified for other work opportunities.
Material benefits in life can never equal the spiritual benefits that come with dedicating yourself to God's service as a full time minister. We do not see this world surviving so to sacrifice spiritual things to better ourselves materially in this life is a bit like upgrading to a better cabin on the Titanic. :eek:

There are very few Direct commands taught by Jesus.
To be baptised and to join in taking bread and wine in the Eucharist when ever we come together in remembrance of him are the most certain.
Absolutely. But to add to what is written is dangerous. (1 Cor 4:6)

We also celebrate his birth death and ascension, to honour God and remember what he has done and provided for us.

This is how we worship God.
You are free to include whatever you want in your worship, but whether or not those inclusions are acceptable to God or not, is really what this thread is all about.

The point is, one can do any of those things you mentioned in one's own heart without grafting a festival over an existing celebration that was originally used to honor a false god. The fact is there are no false gods, but the one who invented false religion gets the worship he seeks through it.

Paul wrote: "Look at Israel in the fleshly sense: Are not those who eat the sacrifices sharers with the altar? What, then, am I saying? That what is sacrificed to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? No; but I say that what the nations sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers with the demons. You cannot be drinking the cup of Jehovah and the cup of demons; you cannot be partaking of “the table of Jehovah” and the table of demons." (1 Cor 10:18-21)

To us, its a case of partaking of the table of the demons whilst believing that we are eating at Jehovah's table. You can't have a foot in both camps. :no:
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It is peculiar when I hear people talk about God, law and purpose from God's perspective. Isn't it placing God under you? For instance when I say law came first then love it is from Israel's perspective. I am a person too. I am able to imagine what it was like to be an Israelite under the law. But you know how to imagine yourself God who is over the law. Do you know you do that?
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Please excuse the length of this, but you raised many good points.........et al

I will not argue with you any further as to detail....
You have learned your syllabus very well, and I recognise all your arguments.

However when I said that the JW's use the same sources as Christians, I knew you would deny it by using those same Biblical sources.

Do not get me wrong some of the things You believe, I also share, particularly that Jesus is the son of God. I hold the more Unitarian view that the Trinity concept is wrong. But that there is a "Relationship" between God. his Son and the Holy Spirit.

I am aware that the JW's started out a group of Biblical scholars and have based their faith on their findings.
My problem with that, is that I do not find their understandings any more reliable than those that preceded it. The real problem is with the Bible itself. we do not even know who wrote the majority of it. We do know that a majority of the old testament came about by the decision of the Jews to write down the two oral traditions. we also know that little if any of it was written by Moses.

The New Testament fares no better. As most of it is wrongly attributed to the named authors. Even some of Paul's works can not have been written by him.

None of this means that there is no truth in the Bible. It simply means it is impossible to be definitive about it, or trust that every thing written in it is true. The essence of Jesus teachings are true. The detail is certainly not.

Even the books that the various Bibles include are not universal, and vary between those chosen in the various canons.

I personally no longer read Revelation, which was not even chosen by a majority, in the earliest selection.
You own Bible translation emphasises your own beliefs and interpretations, which is hardly surprising.

I do not believe that God has ever caused harm to the world. The world is an ever changing ecosystem that lives though natural change. storms, earth quakes floods and eruptions are what makes earth fertile. disease is included in the natural evolutionary process. These things are essential to the life on earth. They are not evil or works of God or of a fictional devil.
Gods love is entirely benevolent and all embracing.

Jesus spoke using the beliefs and mores of his time. It was necessary to do so or he would not have been believed in anything. What he taught, extended the Jewish beliefs and ethos in to what has become the Christian ethic.

Jesus did not found the Christian Church... he left that duty to Peter and the apostles to do. The church they founded exists to this day.
They and their successors have made changes to suit the times and society in which they have lived. Change is not evil it is driver of all things.

over time mistakes and errors are corrected. That is the duty of a living church.

We could go back to the forms practised by the earliest proto-Christians as taught in the Didache, well before the compilation of the Bible. But times have moved on and we are starting from "Here" not "Then" and God is with us.

Interestingly the writers of the Didache knew nothing of the Trinity, but do refer to God, Jesus his son and the Holy Spirit.

I do not know if JW's are allowed to read it.. But there is an an excellent Text, Translation, analysis and commentary on it called "The Didache" by Aaron Milavec.
 
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Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Because everything on this earth has at one time or another been connected to paganism I certainly have no disagreement that there is plenty of information available through historians with regard to a huge variety of customs and such association. What concerns me is the obvious fascination that the Watchtower has with paganism.

the problem is not with pagan people in general but with the 'religions' of pagan people. Would I eat pagan food, Yes absolutely. Would I listen to pagan music, yes for sure. Can i wear pagan created clothing styles, sure why not? But would I want to practice pagan religious customs??? No. Thats where a christian should draw the line.

So the types of things that we would object to is anything stemming from religious customs which would be displeasing to God. We are not going to mix our religion with pagan religion and that is why we take the stance we do.


No, I don’t, the scriptures show that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. You’ve brought up an important issue, though. Religions are truly all about work and striving to bring about self-improvement and change in an attempt to get the participant to reach God’s standard. Futile effort IMO and from what I see set forth in the scriptures. The scriptures show that it is only through God's grace and the righteousness of Jesus Christ applied to the believer's life that anyone is changed and capable of truly worshiping God, not our efforts and religions.So when I see religions and organizations which claim to have the truth, but keep changing their rules I see a red flag warning of falsehood, deception, and wolves in sheep's clothing.

well then, if you believe that God is the same, then the scriptures show us that he is against pagan religion.... so if he was against it back in ancient times, he is still against it today.

Im glad i found an organization who have worked hard to root it out. ;)


Birth and life were also designed by God and God only, satan had nothing to do with creating life. I appreciate what seems to be your personal desire to obey God and remain free from things connected with paganism. But why not rejoice and give the Creator God the praise and glory due Him instead of letting the Watchtower lead you into focusing on evil and paganism, and living in fear and bondage?

fear and bondage of what???

teachings of hellire and purgatory perhaps? Those pagan teachings that put fear into people???

you mean those evil teachings that cause people to live in fear and bondage??

:D
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
What we keep asking is what if they are not pagan practices. The way that we celebrate birthdays for our children and family and friends, does not come across as a pagan custom. Telling someone "Happy birthday" does not come across as a pagan custom. There is nothing remotely religious about a birthday party.
 
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