Christian's Birthdays and Other Holidays

[Jeremy Mason]

ok, i'll play

Evidence that Jesus did not celebrate his birth is seen from the fact that the gospels do not tell us his age. When the gospels begin, they say "Jesus was 'about the age of" but we dont get a definite age. If the jews back then were celebratiing birthdays, then we'd surely know how old Jesus actually was.


But secondly, all the customs and religious practices that Jesus participated in are laid out in the mosaic law. Not one of those customs are for birthday celebrations. Why? Because the Isrealites were told that they were not to participate in the religious customs of the nations around them.

EG, Exodus 34:11 “Pay attention to what I am commanding you today. Here I am driving out from before you the Am′or·ites, the Ca′naan·ites, the Hit′tites, the Per′iz·zites, the Hi′vites, and the Jeb′u·sites. 12 Be careful that you do not make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land to which you are going, or it may prove to be a snare among you. 13 But you are to pull down their altars, you are to shatter their sacred pillars, and their sacred poles you are to cut down. 14 You must not bow down to another god, for Jehovah is known for requiring exclusive devotion. Yes, he is a God who requires exclusive devotion. 15 Be careful not to make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, because when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to their gods, someone will invite you and you will eat from his sacrifice.

The birthday was a pagan religious ceremony. Thats its history. And all such pagan religious customs were forbidden to Isreal

Circumcision was also required for Israel. What is the official JWs position on circumcision?

 

[Pegg]

Circumcision was also required for Israel. What is the official JWs position on circumcision?

that was a requirement for Isrealites under the mosiac law, but christians are not under the mosaic law .

this issue was resolved a long time ago by the Jerusalem congregation when they wrote to gentile believers that they were not required to practice circumcision. See acts chapter 15.

So its not a religious 'requirement' for christians. If someone wants to do it, they can...it might even be necessary for medical reasons. But it would have to be a personal decision because the bible is neither for nor against it.

 

[Pegg]

So what's JW worship look like? From what I've seen, JW services basically consist of a few songs, opening prayer, and most of the time is spent on a Bible study, then maybe a song or two and a prayer to close out. Do the JW's do anything else to worship God as a community?

yes, we are active proclaimers of Gods kingdom and of spreading the message of the goodnews to all nations.

Our primary focus is on doing the work that Jesus began, namely, preaching the good news.

There's more than just marriage that can be found in the pagan pre-Christian religions. There's also giving sacrifice and repentance, reading and contemplation of scriptures, being selfless and loving, being just, helping the oppressed, seeking righteousness, protecting others, seeking harmony between oneself, the world and the divine, worshipping the divine, meditation and clearing one's mind, practicing discernment, meditation, obeying and respecting and taking care of one's elders, offering prayers and communing with the divine, worshipping and glorifying the divine, recognizing the beauty in creation, acknowledging and accepting the will of the divine in unforeseen circumstances, submitting oneself to the divine, standing vigil in prayer, fasting...

I could go on. But needless to say, there is/was a lot in pre-Christian pagan religions that is/was good and holy, and only needed to be set in their proper context and done with the right spirit.

Do you realise that what was missing from Pagan relgions was Jehovah God?

They worshiped a host of gods who are false... of what benefit is any of the above if its not being directed toward their creator???

God forbade the Israelites from having anything to do with paganism because they were so weak in their faith, and often went back to being pagans anyway, despite the stern warnings and strict punishments God gave. As I said, the early Israelites were henotheists at best, but more often polytheists. But for those of us who are stronger and more faithful to God, we are able to look at pagan practices and be far less tempted than the ancient Israelites to join in their practices. Rather, we can point out what is already good in their religions, and help these peoples to abandon the parts that were invented by man's misguided efforts or slipped in by demonic whisperings. And we can take these good things, redeem them, and thereby make it easier for pagans to transition into Christianity.

unfortunately, thats what the Israelites thought too. But it never turned out that they were able to help the Pagans come to worship God in truth....look at what happened to Solomon in his old age. He became involved in the pagan practices of his many 'many' wives.

1 Kings 11:11 

And King Sol′o·mon himself loved many foreign wives along with the daughter of Phar′aoh, Mo′ab·ite, Am′mon·ite, E′dom·ite, Si·do′ni·an [and] Hit′tite women, 2 from the nations of whom Jehovah had said to the sons of Israel: “YOU must not go in among them, and they themselves should not come in among YOU; truly they will incline YOUR heart to follow their gods.” It was to them that Sol′o·mon clung to love [them]. 3 And he came to have seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines; and his wives gradually inclined his heart. 4 And it came about in the time of Sol′o·mon’s growing old that his wives themselves had inclined his heart to follow other gods; and his heart did not prove to be complete with Jehovah his God like the heart of David his father. 5 And Sol′o·mon began going after Ash′to·reth the goddess of the Si·do′ni·ans and after Mil′com the disgusting thing of the Am′mon·ites. 6 And Sol′o·mon began to do what was bad in the eyes of Jehovah, and he did not follow Jehovah fully like David his father.
7 It was then that Sol′o·mon proceeded to build a high place to Che′mosh the disgusting thing of Mo′ab on the mountain that was in front of Jerusalem, and to Mo′lech the disgusting thing of the sons of Am′mon. 8 And that was the way he did for all his foreign wives who were making sacrificial smoke and sacrificing to their gods.
9 And Jehovah came to be incensed at Sol′o·mon, because his heart had inclined away from Jehovah the God of Israel, the one appearing to him twice. 10 And respecting this thing he commanded him not to go after other gods; but he had not kept that which Jehovah had commanded. 11 Jehovah now said to Sol′o·mon: “For the reason that this has taken place with you and you have not kept my covenant and my statutes that I laid in command upon you, I shall without fail rip the kingdom away from off you, and I shall certainly give it to your servant.

We're not giving them Christianity Lite mixed with old pagan practices, we're taking the good and holy practices in their pagan religion that are already essentially Christian, and putting them back in their proper form that God intended them to be in.

no, what is actually happening is that paganism is obscuring the the pure truths of God and colouring it with their own false ideas and customs. Thats why we have christmas and easter and christians even get involved in halloween celebrations for the sake of a bit of 'fun'

Dont be misled. Christianity has nothing in common with such practices.

 

[McBell]

They worshiped a host of gods who are false...

A rather bold and arrogant opinion.

 

[McBell]

My apologies to the thread.
I have just come to realize that this thread is in a sanctuary.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

that was a requirement for Isrealites under the mosiac law, but christians are not under the mosaic law .

this issue was resolved a long time ago by the Jerusalem congregation when they wrote to gentile believers that they were not required to practice circumcision. See acts chapter 15.

So its not a religious 'requirement' for christians. If someone wants to do it, they can...it might even be necessary for medical reasons. But it would have to be a personal decision because the bible is neither for nor against it.

Thanks for the info. I tried googling the topic, checked-out the JWs website and could not get any official position. It is great to see that you have accepted the New Covenant.

Now, Jesus was also suppose to follow the required festivals of jewish law. and he might not have celebrated his birthday/christmas and easter because he hadn't died yet. Yet, he clarified and altered mosaic and the patriarchs rules.

Paul was a Pharisee and references the OT to defend his actions, but nevertheless, reminded Peter not to fall into the Judaizers ways. He wasn't against eating of meat sacrifice to idols as long as it didn't effect someone conscious. Understanding the complexities of different cultures was one of Pauls gifts and he became all things to all men. To the weak, he became weak and the strong, he became strong. I'm sure he avoided gatherings to the "Baal Extravaganza" and the Asherah Easter-Egg Decorating Mixers (don't ask what they used for the paint).

If it makes you and God happy, I'll tell anyone dancing around a golden, chocolate bunny, singing praises to Jehovah, that they could be ticking off God. But I haven't seen that so far.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

My apologies to the thread.
I have just come to realize that this thread is in a sanctuary.

No worries from me Mestemia.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Deviled eggs are good but bacon deviled eggs are delicious. :drool:

https://www.google.com/search?q=pic...tit.com%2Frecipe%2Fbacon-deviled-eggs;646;459

 

[Jeremy Mason]

I just realized this thread has been moved to the same faiths DIR. Green to Purple. Now, what does purple mean? Better yet, what are the current color codes now? I'm going to refer to my MOD. :run:

 

[Shiranui117]

yes, we are active proclaimers of Gods kingdom and of spreading the message of the goodnews to all nations.

Our primary focus is on doing the work that Jesus began, namely, preaching the good news.

Alright, so your focus is more on evangelizing and not so much on worshipping God and developing a relationship with Him? Or do the JW's have a different understanding of what worship and spirituality mean?

Do you realise that what was missing from Pagan relgions was Jehovah God?

Of course I do. But they had so many things that pointed to God, that simply needed elucidating from the light of Christ.

They worshiped a host of gods who are false... of what benefit is any of the above if its not being directed toward their creator???

I'm not disputing the fact that worshipping false gods is a grievous error. I was pointing out how there were already so many good and God-given things in pagan religions that simply needed cleaning off and placed back into the proper context of Christ, and that we shouldn't neglect opportunities to show peoples how already some of what they have points to Christ and the Christian life, and use these good things to steer them away from their pagan religions.

unfortunately, thats what the Israelites thought too. But it never turned out that they were able to help the Pagans come to worship God in truth....look at what happened to Solomon in his old age. He became involved in the pagan practices of his many 'many' wives.

The Israelites never really attempted to evangelize to the pagans... They just sort of turned their backs on God and started following Ba'al because Ba'al appeared to work out better for them than YHWH. We both know that's not true, of course.

This is different from Christians using some of the already essentially Christian things in pagan religions as a means to bring pagans to faith in Christ and cast aside their paganism.

no, what is actually happening is that paganism is obscuring the the pure truths of God and colouring it with their own false ideas and customs.

What examples of this do you have?

Thats why we have christmas and easter

Oh, Christmas, you mean the celebration of the Nativity of Christ that the Church placed on December 25th in order to get rid of the temptation for converts to relapse back to their pagan ways--therefore meaning that Christmas wasn't a capitulation of Christianity to paganism, but was rather a means of defense against pagan infiltration into the lives of Christians?

And by Easter, do you mean Pascha, the celebration of the Resurrection of Christ that, IIRC, the JW's also observe?

and christians even get involved in halloween celebrations for the sake of a bit of 'fun'

You know, living in Austria (a traditionally Catholic country), I've noticed that Halloween as we know it in America and in Ireland is basically nonexistent elsewhere in the world; the Irish pubs seemed to be the only places in all of Salzburg where anything close to what we Americans typically associate with Halloween happened, and even then, it wasn't very much. All Hallow's Eve (IOW, the Feast of All Saints) is rather observed with solemn church services. And Halloween doesn't even exist on the Orthodox Church's calendar; All Saints' Day for us is the Sunday after Pentecost, in late spring.

Dont be misled. Christianity has nothing in common with such practices.

You mean to say that Christianity has nothing to do with praying, worshipping, singing hymns, reading Scriptures, giving to the poor, and being just and loving? Because all of these were being done in pagan religions long before Christianity...

 

[JayJayDee]

For a minute, I thought you would. Wheeew. Deviled eggs are ok.

Food is hardly the issue. :help:

yeah, like the thorny prickly ones.

No, not necessarily. Reading Jesus' words in Matt 7:21-23 you will notice that the ones Jesus rejects are those who fail to "do the will of the Father". These are Christians in good standing in their own estimations, recounting to Jesus all the reasons why he should accept them as his disciples....yet look what Jesus calls them when he tells them he 'never knew them'....he calls them "workers of lawlessness". Whose laws are they breaking?

By saying "I never knew you" Jesus is saying he "NEVER" knew these ones who claimed him as their Lord. Not from day one has he looked upon their brand of Christianity as the genuine article.

So, it will not be obvious to these ones that their worship is unacceptable....it is not obviously the "thorny prickly" religion that is at issue here. It seems to many to be the correct one.

Shouldn't this make us sit up and take a closer look at what we are doing?

 

[Katzpur]

I just realized this thread has been moved to the same faiths DIR. Green to Purple. Now, what does purple mean? Better yet, what are the current color codes now? I'm going to refer to my MOD. :run:

The change was made because this thread has turned into a genuine debate (which is not allowed in the DIR forums).

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

People who look for problems always find them.
Apart from a few sects, Christians have always followed a calendar of events that define the Christian Year.

Virtually all religions follow calendars that are in effect remembrances of people and events. The JW's have set their mind against such things, but do in fact have a cycle of annual events.

Selective reading and interpretation of the Bible can prove just about anything, and this includes regarding remembrances as idolatrous. However common sense indicates that I am not being idolatrous when I celebrate Jesus birth or the birthdays of my family.

 

[Pegg]

Alright, so your focus is more on evangelizing and not so much on worshipping God and developing a relationship with Him? Or do the JW's have a different understanding of what worship and spirituality mean?

you might remember one thing the Jesus said John 4:24 "God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.”

therefore our worship involves much more then just rituals... it involves our lives which we dedicate in the service of our God and that service must be based on truth...ie the truth of Gods word. Thats why we refuse to mingle pagan teachings into our own, and we refuse to allow pagan rituals to infiltrate our lives because we are taught to dedicate our life/time/energy to doing Gods will and living in harmony with him.
Our worship affects every aspect of our life...what sort of work we pursue, who we choose to associate with, how we conduct ourselves, what sort of clothes we wear, how we talk, what we read and watch on television, what sort of entertainment we engage in. Our worship affects every aspect of our lives. Before we decide anything we must first ask ourselves 'how would God feel about this and is it in harmony with Gods standards?'

We couldnt do that if we havnt developed a close relationship with him.

Of course I do. But they had so many things that pointed to God, that simply needed elucidating from the light of Christ.

Did the worshipers of Molech have things which pointed to God? or did their worship point to Molech?

Did the Ashtoreth worshipers point to God, or did they point to their sex godess Ashtoreth?

I cant imagine how you could find the Creator in any of these false gods.

I'm not disputing the fact that worshipping false gods is a grievous error. I was pointing out how there were already so many good and God-given things in pagan religions that simply needed cleaning off and placed back into the proper context of Christ, and that we shouldn't neglect opportunities to show peoples how already some of what they have points to Christ and the Christian life, and use these good things to steer them away from their pagan religions.

what do you do with an apple that looks nice on the outside, but inside is black and rotten and has worms? would you still eat it if i pulled all the worms out?

The Israelites never really attempted to evangelize to the pagans... They just sort of turned their backs on God and started following Ba'al because Ba'al appeared to work out better for them than YHWH. We both know that's not true, of course.

thats right, the Isrealites were ordered by God NOT to go near them. Instead, if a pagan person wanted to become a worshiper of Jehovah, they had to completely remove themselves from their forms of worship and be instructed by an Isrealite how to worship God correctly. God would not accept them if they did not completely rid themselves of their pagan practices.

If we are honest, then surely that tells us something of how he feels about pagan practices.

This is different from Christians using some of the already essentially Christian things in pagan religions as a means to bring pagans to faith in Christ and cast aside their paganism.

What examples of this do you have?

Christmas has its origin in rites involving the worship of the pagan deities Mithra and Saturn.
The New Encyclopædia Britannica (1974): “Christmas, the festival of the birth of Jesus Christ, was established in connection with a fading of the expectation of Christ’s imminent return.”

The Christmas tree “has precious little to do with Christian celebration and a lot to do with the stubborn survival through the millennia of pagan rituals of winter light and rebirth.” (The Boston Herald)

“Trees with trinkets hanging on them were part of the pagan festivals for centuries.”—Church Christmas Tab.

Holly was popular with the Celts “to keep the house goblins in order at winter solstice time. .*.*. It could deflect evil, help in the divination of dreams, defend a house from lightning.”—Beautiful British Columbia.

Mistletoe “came from the Druids in England who used it in strange worship relating to demonic and occult powers.”—Church Christmas Tab.

On December*25 “the Mithraists celebrated the birth of Mithra .*.*. There is absolutely no biblical authority for December*25 as having been the day of the Nativity.”—Isaac Asimov.

Gift giving was a feature of Saturnalia. “You were expected at this festival to make some present to all your friends.”—Ancient Italy and Modern Religion.

The star “atop the tree was worshiped in the East as a symbol of purity, goodness and peace 5,000 years before the nativity of Christ.”—United Church Herald.

The candle “does not come .*.*. from the Christian sanctuary. We took it from a much earlier altar, the Druid oak.”—United Church Herald.

Santa was stolen “from ancient German mythology: ‘Thor was an elderly man, jovial and friendly, of heavy build with a long white beard. He drove a chariot and was said to live in the Northland .*.*. His element was fire, his color red. The fireplace in every home was sacred to him, and he was said to come down into it through the chimney.”—United Church Herald.

The nativity incorporates many of the features of the Roman pagan festival of the sun.

Easter was “originally the spring festival in honor of the Teutonic goddess of light and spring known in Anglo-Saxon as Eastre.” (The Westminster Dictionary of the Bible)
The rabbit “was the escort of the Germanic goddess Ostara.”—Funk & Wagnalls Standard Dictionary of Folklore, Mythology and Legend.

Eggs “were said to be dyed and eaten at the spring festivals in ancient Egypt, Persia, Greece, and Rome.”—Celebrations.

The Easter bonnet originally “was a wreath of flowers or leaves. The circle or crown expressed the round sun and its course in the heavens which brought the return of spring.”

The new Easter outfit developed because “it was considered discourteous and therefore bad luck to greet the Scandinavian goddess of Spring, or Eastre, in anything but fresh garb, since the goddess was bestowing one on the earth.”—The Giant Book of Superstitions.

Hot cross buns: “Like the Greeks, the Romans ate bread marked with a cross .*.*. at public sacrifices.” They were eaten by pagan Saxons in honor of Easter.—Encyclopædia Britannica.

Sunrise services parallel rites “performed at the vernal equinox welcoming the sun and its great power to bring new life to all growing things.”—Celebrations.

And by Easter, do you mean Pascha, the celebration of the Resurrection of Christ that, IIRC, the JW's also observe?

we dont observe easter in the way you might think. Easter is supposed to commemorate Jesus 'resurrection', but we dont celebrate his resurrection. We commemorate his death as he instructed us to.

Every year we hold a memorial of his death on the same day as he died...it is always held on the 14th day of Nisan according to the Jewish calendar.

And there are no bunny's involved

You mean to say that Christianity has nothing to do with praying, worshipping, singing hymns, reading Scriptures, giving to the poor, and being just and loving? Because all of these were being done in pagan religions long before Christianity...

christianity has nothing to do with pagan religions...or their practices.

Would a pagan hymn be acceptable for use by a christian? Who did the pagans sing to? Not to Jehovah...it was a tune dedicated to their own gods.

 

[JayJayDee]

People who look for problems always find them.
Apart from a few sects, Christians have always followed a calendar of events that define the Christian Year.

But what if that "Christian" calendar was full of false Christian events, adopted so long ago that no one today thinks to questions their validity? Would that make a difference?

Christianity began to apostatise even before the apostles passed off the earthly scene. By the second century, when there were no apostles left to restrain apostates from rising up in the congregations and leading others into false worship, the "weeds" that Jesus warned about were already taking over. The seeds of false Christianity were not sown recently. :no:

Virtually all religions follow calendars that are in effect remembrances of people and events. The JW's have set their mind against such things, but do in fact have a cycle of annual events.

Yes, we have set our minds against the performance of pagan celebrations dressed up as Christian and we feel obligated to tell the truth about them. How else will people know that what they have been led to believe is a Christian event, is nothing more than thinly disguised paganism?

Can you tell us what cycle of annual events JW's hold that are unscriptural or that have originated from pagan sources?

Selective reading and interpretation of the Bible can prove just about anything, and this includes regarding remembrances as idolatrous.

Would you rather remain in blissful ignorance because of your own 'selective reading' in opposition to God, or be given the opportunity to withdraw from activities that God's word condemns?

"He that is faithful in what is least is faithful also in much"....do you disagree with this statement in Luke 16:10?

However common sense indicates that I am not being idolatrous when I celebrate Jesus birth or the birthdays of my family.

"A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still" :ignore:

Justification and minimization will always see the heart's desire carried out. It has nothing to do with common sense really.

If you have made your choice...so be it.

 

[ChristineES]

Would you rather remain in blissful ignorance because of your own 'selective reading' in opposition to God, or be given the opportunity to withdraw from activities that God's word condemns?

"He that is faithful in what is least is faithful also in much"....do you disagree with this statement in Luke 16:10?

With all due respect, Jay, why do you assume that we are all ignorant? We read the Bible, too, you realize.

Here are some of Jesus' teachings (from the MKJV):

Luke 6:37 Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you shall be forgiven.

John 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him.

Romans 2:1 Therefore you are without excuse, O man, everyone who judges; for in that in which you judge another, you condemn yourself, for you who judge do the same things.

 

[JayJayDee]

With all due respect, Jay, why do you assume that we are all ignorant? We read the Bible, too, you realize.

"ig·no·rant (ĭg′nər-ənt)
adj.
1. Lacking education or knowledge.
2. Showing or arising from a lack of education or knowledge: an ignorant mistake.
3. Unaware or uninformed. (freedictionary.com)

When I said that that ignorance is bliss, I was meaning that some choose to read the scripture through their own lens. They are basically ignorant of the Bible's teachings because they choose to be. The knowledge is available but when it is presented, it is rejected.

The Bible is not a book that anyone can just pick up and understand. If that was the case then there would be one religion who all agree on its teachings. We can all see that this is not the case at all....far from it.

So the next obvious question is...Why? The fact is that we need help to understand scripture.

Note the example of a first-century Ethiopian eunuch, a Jewish convert who was puzzled about a certain passage of Scripture. “Do you actually know what you are reading?” Philip asked him. The Ethiopian replied: “Really, how could I ever do so, unless someone guided me?” (Acts 8:26-38)

God provided the right guidance to this humble man who accepted the truth when it was offered to him. He saw the import of the matter straight away and after further discussion, offered himself for baptism.

He had already converted to Judaism but now he reason to become a Christian.

He listened with an open heart and did not stubbornly stick to his beliefs, but saw that there was more to the coming of the Messiah than the Jews appreciated.

Here are some of Jesus' teachings (from the MKJV):

Luke 6:37 Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you shall be forgiven.

John 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him.

Romans 2:1 Therefore you are without excuse, O man, everyone who judges; for in that in which you judge another, you condemn yourself, for you who judge do the same things.

We are not the judge of who lives and who dies. Thankfully that job is in the capable hands of Jesus Christ. He is the judge, not any man.

But we have an obligation to tell the truth whether people want to hear it or not. We are fully capable of judging between what is right and what is not. When Noah was assigned to build the ark, he was not free to build what he thought was adequate. He was given instructions as to materials, construction methods and the correct height, to width, to depth ratio that shipbuilders use to this day.
Every detail was provided for him, so all Noah had to do was follow that instruction without deviation or personal opinion affecting the way he carried it out.

For all the decades that it took to construct that ark, Noah was to warn the people that their conduct merited God's disfavor to such an extent that He was going to bring a great flood as retribution for their error. They chose not to believe him. But their rejection of his message was no excuse for him to hold back. Jesus used his example to show us what would happen again at his second coming. (Matt 24:36-39) Why do you suppose that Jesus did that?

We can inform people about the Bible's message, just as Jesus and his disciples did; we can show them what is acceptable to God and what is not. But this is all we can do.

No one is forced to believe anything they do not wish to. Jesus did not coerce or browbeat, he merely presented the facts and allowed individual hearts to respond. Jehovah sent his prophets to his people again and again, in the hope that they would listen. Opportunity after opportunity was given to them until he provided his own son to appeal to them. When even he was rejected, God's patience ran out. (Matt 23:37-39)

God's patience will run out again in the not too distant future. All those who heard but did not respond to the message of the kingdom will regret their decision.

Jehovah’s desire that his people avoid calamity and enjoy life is beautifully expressed in Isaiah 48:18: “O if only you would actually pay attention to my commandments! Then your peace would become just like a river, and your righteousness like the waves of the sea.” Obedience is all God has ever asked of us. (Deuteronomy 5:29; Psalm 81:13; 2 Peter 3:9, 10)

 

[Shiranui117]

you might remember one thing the Jesus said John 4:24 "God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.”

therefore our worship involves much more then just rituals... it involves our lives which we dedicate in the service of our God and that service must be based on truth...ie the truth of Gods word. Thats why we refuse to mingle pagan teachings into our own, and we refuse to allow pagan rituals to infiltrate our lives because we are taught to dedicate our life/time/energy to doing Gods will and living in harmony with him.
Our worship affects every aspect of our life...what sort of work we pursue, who we choose to associate with, how we conduct ourselves, what sort of clothes we wear, how we talk, what we read and watch on television, what sort of entertainment we engage in. Our worship affects every aspect of our lives. Before we decide anything we must first ask ourselves 'how would God feel about this and is it in harmony with Gods standards?'

We couldnt do that if we havnt developed a close relationship with him.

Fair. All things in our life are to be a prayer to God, and I'm glad you guys have that mentality--it's a great one to have! :yes:

During our services, we Orthodox Christians worship God physically, mentally and spiritually--bowing before God, making the sign of the cross, singing, prostrating (historical fact: The Muslims took the practice of prostration from Orthodox Christians!), and other things. Worship with us involves all five senses--sight, hearing, smell, taste and touch. Our entire being is engaged in worship--we don't worship with our noggins, but so much more with the heart. Our worship is patterned after the Book of Revelation, with incense, bowing and prostration before God, offering hymns, and praying for everyone in the world.

Did the worshipers of Molech have things which pointed to God? or did their worship point to Molech?

Did the Ashtoreth worshipers point to God, or did they point to their sex godess Ashtoreth?

I cant imagine how you could find the Creator in any of these false gods.

Of course He is not to be found in false gods. I don't think you understand the points I'm trying to make here. You're trying to find paganism in Christian things. I'm trying to find Christian things in paganism. That speaks volumes about the differences in the way we think. I focus on finding what is good and godly in unlikely places, and try my best to redeem that and give it back to God. As Terry said: "Those who look for problems will always find them." You are insisting that Christian things are actually pagan. I'm insisting that there are things in paganism, hints and intuitions and symbols given by God, that can be redeemed and used for God's glory. What was misinterpreted in pagan lights can be correctly interpreted in a Christian light.

what do you do with an apple that looks nice on the outside, but inside is black and rotten and has worms? would you still eat it if i pulled all the worms out?

A better analogy is this: If you found nuggets of gold mixed in with mud, would you not take out the gold and clean the mud off?

The Christmas tree “has precious little to do with Christian celebration and a lot to do with the stubborn survival through the millennia of pagan rituals of winter light and rebirth.” (The Boston Herald)

Hate to break it to you, but newspapers aren't the best place to learn about religion...

Christmas trees are symbols of Christ, Who came as Life in the midst of a dead world, just as evergreen trees remain alive throughout the dead of winter. A story goes that as Luther was walking, he saw stars shining through the branches of an evergreen tree--and in it, he saw the light of Christ's Divinity shining through His humanity into the world.

Holly was popular with the Celts “to keep the house goblins in order at winter solstice time. .*.*. It could deflect evil, help in the divination of dreams, defend a house from lightning.”—Beautiful British Columbia.

"Holly: The prickly leaves represent the crown of thorns that Jesus wore when he was crucified. The berries are the drops of blood that were shed by Jesus because of the thorns."

Mistletoe “came from the Druids in England who used it in strange worship relating to demonic and occult powers.”—Church Christmas Tab.

I can't say I've ever seen mistletoe at an Orthodox celebration of the Nativity.

On December*25 “the Mithraists celebrated the birth of Mithra .*.*. There is absolutely no biblical authority for December*25 as having been the day of the Nativity.”—Isaac Asimov.

Nor does any Christian claim that this was when Christ was born. Originally, the feast of Christ's birth, circumcision and the adoration of the Magi were all celebrated as one feast in early January, before they were divided into three separate feast days. As I said, the placing of the celebration of the Nativity on December 25th was a means to keep pagan converts from being tempted to relapse into their old pagan ways around this time of year--it was not a paganization, but an anti-paganization.

Gift giving was a feature of Saturnalia. “You were expected at this festival to make some present to all your friends.”—Ancient Italy and Modern Religion.

God gives us the gift of His Son. We are to love others as God loves. What is therefore wrong with gift-giving? The Magi brought gifts to Christ, yet they were not rebuked.

The star “atop the tree was worshiped in the East as a symbol of purity, goodness and peace 5,000 years before the nativity of Christ.”—United Church Herald.

The star atop the Christmas tree actually represents the star that led the Magi to Christ. Others will put an angel on top of the tree instead, in remembrance of the angel that proclaimed the birth of the Savior to the shepherds.

The candle “does not come .*.*. from the Christian sanctuary. We took it from a much earlier altar, the Druid oak.”—United Church Herald.

Actually, candles come from the lamps in Jewish practice. They also remind us of the fire of the Holy Spirit burning within us, and that we are to be lights to the world, just as Christ is. Also, if you've ever been in a church lit only by candles at night, let me tell you, it's a chilling and profound experience; it is incredibly conducive to prayer and contemplation, and very solemn. Everyone becomes much more still and more attentive to worshipping God.

Pagans were sacrificing bulls and oxen and sheep and goats to their gods long before God commanded the Israelites to do the same thing for Him. I didn't hear God complain about animal sacrifices to Him being pagan infiltrations...

Santa was stolen “from ancient German mythology: ‘Thor was an elderly man, jovial and friendly, of heavy build with a long white beard. He drove a chariot and was said to live in the Northland .*.*. His element was fire, his color red. The fireplace in every home was sacred to him, and he was said to come down into it through the chimney.”—United Church Herald.

The name "Santa Claus" is a corruption of "St. Nicholas," a fourth-century bishop of Myra in Lycia. His feast day is December 6th, weeks before Christmas.

The tradition of St. Nicholas being the one to bring gifts comes from the time when a nobleman in the city was so poor, he was going to have to sell his daughters as slaves or prostitutes. St. Nicholas caught wind of it, and at night, he would take a bag of gold from the church treasury, sneak to the man's house, and throw the bag through the nobleman's window. After three nights, the man found he had three bags of gold--dowries for each of his three daughters, so they could be married off instead of sold as prostitutes.

I agree that the American myth of Santa Claus is greatly distorted from the real St. Nicholas, and 95% of the time, whenever I hear any Christmas jingles about Santa, I want to punch something. I'd much rather hear actually Christian things like Heark the Herald Angels Sing, or God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen.

Easter was “originally the spring festival in honor of the Teutonic goddess of light and spring known in Anglo-Saxon as Eastre.” (The Westminster Dictionary of the Bible)

This applies only to the Germanic name for it. It's only called "Easter" or some variation thereof in English, German and a handful of other Germanic languages. Basically every other language in the world calls it "Pascha," which is derived from Pesach, or "Passover" in Hebrew/Aramaic (I forget which), meaning, Christ our Passover being risen from the dead. Pascha existed waaayyyy prior to Christianity being spread to the Germanic pagans.

 

[Shiranui117]

The rabbit “was the escort of the Germanic goddess Ostara.”—Funk & Wagnalls Standard Dictionary of Folklore, Mythology and Legend.

The Easter bunny doesn't exist in Orthodox Paschal celebrations.

Eggs “were said to be dyed and eaten at the spring festivals in ancient Egypt, Persia, Greece, and Rome.”—Celebrations.

The Christian Easter egg actually comes from two things: Middle Eastern Christians dying eggs red to symbolize Christ's Passion, and stories surrounding Mary Magdalene:

While the origin of Easter eggs can be explained in the symbolic terms described above, a sacred tradition among followers of Eastern Christianity says that Mary Magdalene was bringing cooked eggs to share with the other women at the tomb of Jesus, and the eggs in her basket miraculously turned brilliant red when she saw the risen Christ. The egg represents the boulder of the tomb of Jesus.[17]
A different, but not necessarily conflicting legend concerns Mary Magdalene's efforts to spread the Gospel. According to this tradition, after the Ascension of Jesus, Mary went to the Emperor of Rome and greeted him with "Christ has risen," whereupon he pointed to an egg on his table and stated, "Christ has no more risen than that egg is red." After making this statement it is said the egg immediately turned blood red.[18]

Also from Wiki's page:
Eggs, in general, were a traditional symbol of fertility, and rebirth.[2] In Christianity, for the celebration of Eastertide, Easter eggs symbolize the empty tomb of Jesus:[3][4][5] though an egg appears to be like the stone of a tomb, a bird hatches from it with life; similarly, the Easter egg, for Christians, is a reminder that Jesus rose from the grave, and that those who believe will also experience eternal life.[3][4]

The Easter bonnet originally “was a wreath of flowers or leaves. The circle or crown expressed the round sun and its course in the heavens which brought the return of spring.”

And the rising sun is also a symbol for new life and the Resurrection--specifically, Christ's. This is why all churches face (or at least should face) east.

The new Easter outfit developed because “it was considered discourteous and therefore bad luck to greet the Scandinavian goddess of Spring, or Eastre, in anything but fresh garb, since the goddess was bestowing one on the earth.”—The Giant Book of Superstitions.

I've never heard of having a new Easter outfit. The more you know..

Hot cross buns: “Like the Greeks, the Romans ate bread marked with a cross .*.*. at public sacrifices.” They were eaten by pagan Saxons in honor of Easter.—Encyclopædia Britannica.

Do you not see how the cross, a universal symbol even before Christianity, was and is a tool for Christian missionaries to spread the Gospel and get the people to accept it? They have the symbol, but are unaware of its significance. Once we explain the significance of this cross symbol that they have, that's a great way to teach them the Faith. As I said, we are to redeem the things foreshadowing Christianity that are already present in pagan practices.

Sunrise services parallel rites “performed at the vernal equinox welcoming the sun and its great power to bring new life to all growing things.”—Celebrations.

And Christ is the true "Sun of Righteousness." (Malachi 4:2) It is Christ who illumines the world and all who come into it (John 1:5-9; 8:12). Even sun worship is a misguided corruption; all of mankind had the intuition that God is Light, and like the sun, brings life and light to all. But they didn't know Who this Light of the world was, so they mistakenly took the sun and worshipped that instead. We Christians had/have the job of telling them Who the true Sun of Righteousness and Light of the world is, and directing them to worshipping Him instead of the big, hot ball of gas.

we dont observe easter in the way you might think. Easter is supposed to commemorate Jesus 'resurrection', but we dont celebrate his resurrection. We commemorate his death as he instructed us to.

But that's why we have Good Friday... Do the JW's not see Jesus' Resurrection as worth celebrating? It's His Resurrection that has reopened the gates of Paradise and reconciled man to God. It's in His Resurrection that we were given a way out of sin and death. His death was a victory over Death, to be sure, but the Resurrection is what is of paramount importance; remember St. Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 15, that the Resurrection of Christ is what our Faith stands on.

Every year we hold a memorial of his death on the same day as he died...it is always held on the 14th day of Nisan according to the Jewish calendar.

Ahh, so you're Quartodecimians. We Orthodox celebrate it on the first Sunday after the first full moon after the spring equinox, and it cannot coincide with the Passover.

And there are no bunny's involved

There aren't any involved in Orthodox Pascha, either.

Would a pagan hymn be acceptable for use by a christian? Who did the pagans sing to? Not to Jehovah...it was a tune dedicated to their own gods.

Of course not, and I believe you're not understanding what I'm saying about separating the wheat from the chaff. Pagan hymns are of course not acceptable; there's an entire 2,000-year-old tradition of Christian hymnography and liturgical music to use instead.

 

[savagewind]

I hear someone say Jesus' words at Luke 6:37 and the similar words at Romans 2:1 are about life and death. Here:

We are not the judge of who lives and who dies. Thankfully that job is in the capable hands of Jesus Christ. He is the judge, not any man.

That was the answer to those two scriptures. How does anyone know that when Jesus said this: Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you shall be forgiven. He was talking about life and death only?

I have heard at least three people on this thread alone say that if the other people continue to celebrate "worldly" holidays they will "find out soon" that they were "wrong". To believe someone else is wrong in what they do is JUDGING.

You are judging another person's behavior, not their judgement from God (life and death).

You are forgetting all the other scriptures that say to eat or to observe is NOT to be judged. So why are you doing it? We are not judging you for not doing them. You ARE judging us for doing them.

Jesus' teachers warn the flock to not even risk eternal life to partake in pagan additives

Those who engaged in this festival perished for their disobedience.

But an untrained or misled conscience is no good to anyone who wants to please God. If we don't have his view, then our own flawed human perceptions and reasoning cannot be counted on to lead us in the right direction.

Jehovah is a God who does not tolerate any deviation from his clearly stated laws.

Faulty perception is no excuse.

Justification is dangerous. If we cannot be faithful in the small things, there is no point in being faithful only in the big things.

We will both find out who is right soon enough.

But it would have to be a personal decision because the bible is neither for nor against it.

it will not be obvious to these ones that their worship is unacceptable

If you have made your choice...so be it.

God's patience will run out again in the not too distant future. All those who heard but did not respond to the message of the kingdom will regret their decision.

Bravo to Peg who did not once come out to judge!