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Christian's Birthdays and Other Holidays

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There are two things going on in my mind about this. One is that I believe it is not possible for God to hold a grudge. If people in the past offended God Almighty by putting the importance of a person's day of birth ahead of knowing and obeying God that fact can't be linked to today where a lover of Christ Jesus observes their own loved one's birthday. To be putting the giving of presents and the having of cake on one special day in a bad light is to be giving days more importance that a person's love of God. It is trivializing the love of God because the love of God is much more important that what we do on any DAY. Is it OK to give a party and presents for a child who has completed school? Yes or no? It is acceptable to God to give presents, cake and a party to someone BUT NOT ON THEIR BIRTHDAY. That is making a day more important than any other good thing.

The second problem I see is that people are judging their actions according to the way they see God has judged Israel. But you are not Israel. Where is it written that Israel's law will be your law? Are you not mocking what God has done with Israel? I see that you are.

In the last days there will come mockers with their mocking , according to their own desire (understanding) says "where is the promised presence of the [judge]?"

By your inferring many things about what God loves and hates are you not proceeding according to your OWN desire?

God knows what God loves and hates. You do not. If you did know you would be YHVH.
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Isn't justification what you are waiting for? Well, how does justification come? Isn't justification coming by means of Christ's return? Yes. So everyone whose heart is waiting for Christ's justification is saying "where is it?"
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
But what if that "Christian" calendar was full of false Christian events, adopted so long ago that no one today thinks to questions their validity? Would that make a difference?

Christianity began to apostatise even before the apostles passed off the earthly scene. By the second century, when there were no apostles left to restrain apostates from rising up in the congregations and leading others into false worship, the "weeds" that Jesus warned about were already taking over. The seeds of false Christianity were not sown recently. :no:



Yes, we have set our minds against the performance of pagan celebrations dressed up as Christian and we feel obligated to tell the truth about them. How else will people know that what they have been led to believe is a Christian event, is nothing more than thinly disguised paganism?

Can you tell us what cycle of annual events JW's hold that are unscriptural or that have originated from pagan sources? :confused:


Would you rather remain in blissful ignorance because of your own 'selective reading' in opposition to God, or be given the opportunity to withdraw from activities that God's word condemns?

"He that is faithful in what is least is faithful also in much"....do you disagree with this statement in Luke 16:10?



"A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still" :ignore:

Justification and minimization will always see the heart's desire carried out. It has nothing to do with common sense really.

If you have made your choice...so be it.

The Mainline churches including the Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican and Lutheran all follow much the same calendar. The people and events they celebrate are all Christian based. They may share similar times to ancient events and religions, but that is inevitable, as the days of the year are few and they have each recorded innumerable happenings since time immemorial.

I find it very arrogant for the JW's to set themselves up as arbiters and interpretors of the Christian faith. When the writings in the Bible and and the faith that has been passed down to us by the church fathers are so open to interpretation.

Of course there are errors, however the true essence is more important than any misunderstandings in the detail.

It is not as if the JW's subscribe to Jesus as either part of the Godhead or the son of God. Which is fundamental to Christian belief.

The story of motes and beams comes to mind.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I see some people want to fashion themselves after the Nation of Israel by obeying Israels' laws. But Israel was for the coming of The Messiah and he came. He came relative to the law (or works) of Israel. Now you who are fashioning yourself after the works of Israel are expecting The Messiah to reappear. According to you will he reappear relative to your works as was the case with Israel?
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
The Mainline churches including the Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican and Lutheran all follow much the same calendar. The people and events they celebrate are all Christian based.
To be sure, they all follow much the same calendar....the question must be asked then....why are they all still divided? If they claim to follow the same Lord, yet cannot agree except in observances and teachings that were adopted from paganism in the early centuries, when Jesus comes again, who will he recognise as his own faithful disciples "doing the will of the Father? Who are those he identifies as "workers of lawlessness" whilst claiming him as their Lord? (Matt 7:21-23)

They may share similar times to ancient events and religions, but that is inevitable, as the days of the year are few and they have each recorded innumerable happenings since time immemorial.

Do you realise that God's ancient people were not free to take it upon themselves to invent their own celebrations? Regardless of the significance of any event, (and there were many) they were not free to hold an annual celebration to memorialise it. Every festival they celebrated was orchestrated by God and each had their own significance and practices. Everything they had to do was prescribed and the details and preparation for the celebration were given by God himself.

Can you tell me where in the Bible we find any command to celebrate Christ's birth or his resurrection, or Lent? There is a clear command to memorialise his death, but nothing more. Only this one commemorative event is incumbent on Christ's followers. Anything over and above this memorial is of human invention. The only appeal to hold all the other celebrations is not scriptural, it is emotional.

I find it very arrogant for the JW's to set themselves up as arbiters and interpretors of the Christian faith.
Is it arrogant to tell the truth? :shrug:
What is arrogant, is to hear the truth and be determined to hang onto practices that the Bible demonstrates to be of pagan origin and therefore unacceptable to God. Emotional attachment to something that God condemns is a course of spiritual suicide.

Is it arrogant to inform the uninformed that the practices they hold dear are not dear to God? This was Jesus' message to the practicers of Judaism in the first century who were misled by their leaders to follow "the traditions of men". He received the same response. :ignore:

If people choose to keep celebrating these festivals, that is entirely their choice but no one can claim that they were ignorant of the facts.

When the writings in the Bible and and the faith that has been passed down to us by the church fathers are so open to interpretation.
Don't you have to wonder, in a world ruled by the devil, that there are so many interpretations of one single work of scripture? Whose MO is confusion? God's or the devil's? Who is preventing people from 'seeing' the truth? (2 Cor 4:3, 4)

The Bible itself has one message and if it had been observed by the early "church fathers" to the letter, we would have no additions and this conversation would not be taking place. There would be one Christianity and one united body of Christ's disciples preaching one truth in all the world....that is clearly not the case, so decisions have to be made. "Wheat" must be separate from the "weeds".

Of course there are errors, however the true essence is more important than any misunderstandings in the detail.

If that was the case, then Jehovah would not have put the golden calf worshippers to death. They were holding a festival to 'the God who brought them out of Egypt'...it was "a festival to Jehovah" so the "essence" was there....it was the 'practice' borrowed from the false worship of the Egyptians that was unacceptable. God demonstrated his hot displeasure and so did Moses.

It is not as if the JW's subscribe to Jesus as either part of the Godhead or the son of God. Which is fundamental to Christian belief.

This is the sort of ignorant statement we have come to expect of those who oppose our message. Where do you get the notion that JW's reject Jesus as the son of God? This is what Jesus called himself. What Jesus never claimed to be was "God the Son"....huge difference. There is not one single statement from Jesus that he is anything but "the son" of the God who sent him. His Father is also his God. Does one part of God worship another equal part of himself?

Even after his return to heaven, the Father was still his God. (Rev 3:12)

Jesus did not have to be Almighty God in order to fulfill his role as Messiah. All he needed to be was a perfect human specimen to give his life to cancel out the sin of Adam and rescue his children.

He was first and foremost a preacher and teacher but not many of his own people accepted him because their leaders had made Messiah's role into a political solution to their plight under the yoke of Rome. Jesus did nothing to liberate the Jews from Roman oppression but offered them a spiritual liberation grounded in the coming of his kingdom.....yet future.

The story of motes and beams comes to mind.

There are two sides to that story. :yes:
 
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ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
I believe that people who tell other Christians that they are not true Christians is a form of condemnation. I used to do it to certain denominations myself when I first was saved (I was still an "immature Christian"), but I repented of that a long time ago (as I believed I should have).

Judging others about certain doctrine, in my view, is a dangerous thing. For one thing, who can possibly know which interpretation is the correct one.

Does anyone understand the question?
I think I do. I believe that it is not works that save us, but grace. We still do works, but because we want to not because we believe it will save us.
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
Is it arrogant to inform the uninformed that the practices they hold dear are not dear to God? This was Jesus' message to the practicers of Judaism in the first century who were misled by their leaders to follow "the traditions of men". He received the same response.

It certainly can be arrogant to "tell the truth". Sure, there are many people who say they follow God yet really don't. But we, as people, can't read a man's (or woman's) heart. Only God can do that. I believe that God alone knows what the truth is and that people can only interpret the scriptures in our own way.
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
It certainly can be arrogant to "tell the truth". Sure, there are many people who say they follow God yet really don't. But we, as people, can't read a man's (or woman's) heart. Only God can do that. I believe that God alone knows what the truth is and that people can only interpret the scriptures in our own way.
I completely agree ChristineES. People must decide in their own hearts what is truth. But unless we have both sides of the story, how can it be an informed choice?

No one is saying that a person cannot choose....merely that the choice cannot be made without all the facts. Our choices tell God all he needs to know about us.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
I completely agree ChristineES. People must decide in their own hearts what is truth. But unless we have both sides of the story, how can it be an informed choice?

No one is saying that a person cannot choose....merely that the choice cannot be made without all the facts. Our choices tell God all he needs to know about us.

I do not believe that God judges us as to the detail of our beliefs.

God does not have to wait to see what we do or choose, to "Know" us.
He knows us far better than we know ourselves.

We should love God and follow Jesus teachings to the best of our ability.
What we might be led to believe is almost irrelevant. As the vast majority of us believe what our birth society and religions have taught us.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Israel needed the laws so that The Christ was able to come through Israel. The law has been called "a tutor leading to "Christ". So you believe in Christ as lord and Messiah. How can you believe if you have not already been led to him? In fact Jehovah's Witnesses beleive Jesus Christ is with them invisibly leading them now. If you believe your way is Christ's way and he is with you then to be led to him still is ridiculous. The law was for leading the people to Christ so that he would come and he came. Now what is the law for? You use the law to dictate what you can and cannot do. But Christ fulfilled the law. To use the law now to prove your own righteousness is ridiculing it's real intent which is to prove The Son of God.
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Another way of looking at it is this:

The law was for proving God's righteousness and it was accomplished in Jesus. Now people use the law to prove their own righteousness even while confessing faith in the one that already proved the law. You are still trying to prove it. How is that not ridiculing it?
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
I do not believe that God judges us as to the detail of our beliefs.
He did in Israel. Does God change? Was Jesus not Jewish? He exposed the religious traditions of men as false worship and condemned them at every opportunity.

God does not have to wait to see what we do or choose, to "Know" us.
He knows us far better than we know ourselves.
That is very true, but he is also observing us to see if we will change course. (2 Peter 3:9) He does not desire to destroy anyone.

We should love God and follow Jesus teachings to the best of our ability.
God knows what our "best" is....but do we? :shrug:

What we might be led to believe is almost irrelevant. As the vast majority of us believe what our birth society and religions have taught us.

And therein lies the heart of the problem. Our "birth and society and religions" should never dictate how we worship our Creator :facepalm:

Our worship must be the genuine article, otherwise we are accepting a counterfeit, manufactured by God's enemy. Jesus said that "wheat" and "weeds" would grow together in the same field. You don't have to know what every 'counterfeit' looks like to detect the fake...all you have to do is know what the genuine article looks like and make comparisons.

Jesus said that only at the 'harvest time' would there be a clear distinction and separation between the two. There are only "sheep" and "goats"...nothing in between. There are only 'two roads' and every single person is judged to be on either one or the other.....there is no fence to sit on. Our decisions are a life or death matter. Nothing should be shrugged off as unimportant. :sad:
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The people of Israel needed to be observing the law so that they would be led to faith in God's will to bring forth his son in Israel. God's son was brought forth. Who has changed the function of the law?

Is it a difficult question?
 
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JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
The question was; if the law was for Jesus coming and Jesus came, what is it for NOW?

Jesus said that the greatest command was “Love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.” The second was to “Love your neighbor as yourself.” He then said: “On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.” (Matthew 22:35-40) Jesus thus indicated that, not just the Law with the Ten Commandments, but the entire Hebrew Scriptures were based on love.

Christians are under the law of love. It is not possible to break a single Mosaic law without breaking that law of love.

The apostle Paul said: “He that loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.” He then names some of the commandments of the Law and concludes: “and whatever other commandment there is, is summed up in this word, namely, ‘You must love your neighbor [ple·si′on] as yourself.’ Love does not work evil to one’s neighbor [ple·si′on]; therefore love is the law’s fulfillment.” (Rom 13:8-10; Gal 5:14.) James calls the command to love one’s neighbor as oneself “the kingly law.” (Jas 2:8)

Not a difficult question.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Jesus said that the greatest command was “Love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.” The second was to “Love your neighbor as yourself.” He then said: “On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.” (Matthew 22:35-40) Jesus thus indicated that, not just the Law with the Ten Commandments, but the entire Hebrew Scriptures were based on love.

Christians are under the law of love. It is not possible to break a single Mosaic law without breaking that law of love.

The apostle Paul said: “He that loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.” He then names some of the commandments of the Law and concludes: “and whatever other commandment there is, is summed up in this word, namely, ‘You must love your neighbor [ple·si′on] as yourself.’ Love does not work evil to one’s neighbor [ple·si′on]; therefore love is the law’s fulfillment.” (Rom 13:8-10; Gal 5:14.) James calls the command to love one’s neighbor as oneself “the kingly law.” (Jas 2:8)

Not a difficult question.

The law is not BASED on love. It leads to it. The reason for the law is love. There is no "law of love". You have been set free but you do not want it. Hebrews 10:28 comes to mind.

A picture:

Believing the law is based on love is like love is a boat taking you somewhere. You would be able to picture the law is IN the boat.... But believing the law leads to love is like the law is a map showing you the way to love. So if love is the boat you are standing on you need not look for love. Now do you? It would be under your feet.
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The truth is the law came first, then came love. You are telling us love came first then came law. That is not correct.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
He did in Israel. Does God change? Was Jesus not Jewish? He exposed the religious traditions of men as false worship and condemned them at every opportunity.

That is what the Jews believed But Christians are not Jews.
God probably does not change. but what men believe about him is constantly changing.
Jesus was more than Just Jewish he was the Son of God.


That is very true, but he is also observing us to see if we will change course. (2 Peter 3:9) He does not desire to destroy anyone.

God knows what our "best" is....but do we? :shrug:

God knows these things He does not have to wait to find out.

And therein lies the heart of the problem. Our "birth and society and religions" should never dictate how we worship our Creator :facepalm:

We only know what our Birth and society teaches us. That includes the JW teachings.

Our worship must be the genuine article, otherwise we are accepting a counterfeit, manufactured by God's enemy. Jesus said that "wheat" and "weeds" would grow together in the same field. You don't have to know what every 'counterfeit' looks like to detect the fake...all you have to do is know what the genuine article looks like and make comparisons.

How we worship is how we have been taught, it is all we can know.
While God is true, all else is supposition either by us or previous generations.
JW teachings are no different and derive from the same source works.


Jesus said that only at the 'harvest time' would there be a clear distinction and separation between the two. There are only "sheep" and "goats"...nothing in between. There are only 'two roads' and every single person is judged to be on either one or the other.....there is no fence to sit on. Our decisions are a life or death matter. Nothing should be shrugged off as unimportant. :sad:

How we live our lives is important to God's purpose.
It is reasonable to suppose he would favour protecting the Earth and all that is in it. It is also reasonable to suppose that he would approve of us improving our minds by learning and endeavour for the benefit of the world. I am sure the minutiae of Jewish and Christian law is as nothing to him.
I am sure he cares not at all which church we follow.

There are very few Direct commands taught by Jesus.
To be baptised and to join in taking bread and wine in the Eucharist when ever we come together in remembrance of him are the most certain.

We also celebrate his birth death and ascension, to honour God and remember what he has done and provided for us.

This is how we worship God.
 
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