Christian's Birthdays and Other Holidays

[Jeremy Mason]

So 364 days out of the year, and it's perfectly acceptable. But on that one other day doing the exact same thing, and it's God-forsaken and forbidden? Do you not see the radical inconsistency in that logic?

I guess to out think the matter, we just need to avoid voo-doo days and just wait 24 hours. Problem solved.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

I would like to hear the logic that explains how a king giving himself a birthday party is the same as a mother giving her little child one.

This is demons-table talk.

I can picture that scene from the Dark Crystal, when the Skekies are are eating.

Skeksis - Muppet Wiki

 

[james2ko]

So a natural and organic outpouring of love and praise for God, manifesting in the form of setting aside a day on which to celebrate His Son becoming one of us and coming into the world to save us from our sins is wrong in your view? Why?

If God wanted us to celebrate Christ's birth, He would have given us a specific date in scripture to do so, as He did the Holy Days, which I do observe. There are too many examples in scripture where people made up their own "holy day", in God's honor, outside of what God prescribed and every single time God was displeased. So I'll play it safe as I have the Word to support me on judgment day.

Got a source for that?

Sure do:

I mostly take Origen's theology with a grain of salt. But I do find this quote condemning:

"…of all the holy people in the Scriptures, no one is recorded to have kept a feast or held a great banquet on his birthday. It is only sinners (like Pharaoh and Herod) who make great rejoicings over the day on which they were born into this world below (last paragraph)

"[These are not Origen's words but a narrative of the article] "Indeed where we find the Fathers emphasizing the etymology of the word, their language rather suggests that they expected the primary meaning of "birthday" [the day one was born] to pass unnoticed" (next to last paragraph)[emphasis mine]​

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Natal Day

The writings of the late third century Catholic theologian Arnobius show that, even then, most Catholics were against the celebration of birthdays as he wrote:

...you worship with couches, altars, temples, and other service, and by celebrating their games and birthdays, those whom it was fitting that you should assail with keenest hatred.​

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf06.xii.iii.i.lxiv.html

 

[james2ko]

You gave me examples of two people having birthday parties that ended up badly. I asked you to give me evidence from the early Church that said that only sinful and wicked people celebrated their birthdays. You did not provide what I asked you to provide.

That's because you did not ask JJ, you asked me.

 

[JayJayDee]

Pegg said Jesus did celebrate birthdays. Ask her about that. I'm curious to see that discussion.

Sorry Jeremy, that is simply not true and I think you know it. Please give us the link where you believe Pegg said that.

Strawmen and red herrings have been putting in way too many appearances around here lately

 

[Shiranui117]

That's because you did not ask JJ, you asked me.

Oh. Sorry about that I tend to do stupid things like that...

 

[Shiranui117]

If God wanted us to celebrate Christ's birth, He would have given us a specific date in scripture to do so, as He did the Holy Days, which I do observe. There are too many examples in scripture where people made up their own "holy day", in God's honor, outside of what God prescribed and every single time God was displeased.

Do you have examples of this?

Also note that Christ never commanded anyone to celebrate the day of His Resurrection. Yet we all worship on Sunday (the day Christ rose from the dead) and Easter is without question the biggest and most important holiday on the Christian calendar. If celebrating Christmas is wrong because Jesus never commanded it, then shouldn't we also refuse to celebrate the day He rose from the dead, by that same logic? Yet we know the importance of Pascha, even in the Bible. How do you deal with that?

Sure do:

I mostly take Origen's theology with a grain of salt. But I do find this quote condemning:

"…of all the holy people in the Scriptures, no one is recorded to have kept a feast or held a great banquet on his birthday. It is only sinners (like Pharaoh and Herod) who make great rejoicings over the day on which they were born into this world below (last paragraph)

"[These are not Origen's words but a narrative of the article] "Indeed where we find the Fathers emphasizing the etymology of the word, their language rather suggests that they expected the primary meaning of "birthday" [the day one was born] to pass unnoticed" (next to last paragraph)[emphasis mine]​

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Natal Day

That will do. The other passage doesn't work as well, but this one does.

It is interesting to note that one's name day in many Orthodox countries is often a bigger deal than their birthday; children in our Church are named after a certain Saint (sometimes named after a Saint on whose feast day the child was born or baptized), and the day on which the Saints are commemorated is usually on the day of their death, as mentioned in that Catholic Encyclopedia article. So, for example, my name's Patrick, so my name day is St. Patrick's Day, the day on which he died. I was born in August, but my (non-Orthodox and non-Catholic) parents named me Patrick, so March 17th is still my name day, albeit completely disconnected from my birthday. (I don't think my parents had the Saint in mind though ) So on March 17th, people will tell me "Happy name day!" and give me a big hug. During the Liturgy, the priest also asks for God's blessing over all those who have their name days. I in turn ask for the intercession of St. Patrick. (Intercession for/of the dead and the Saints is for another topic.)

 

[Shiranui117]

I guess to out think the matter, we just need to avoid voo-doo days and just wait 24 hours. Problem solved.

"Voodoo days"?

 

[savagewind]

This is demons-table talk.

I can picture that scene from the Dark Crystal, when the Skekies are are eating.

Skeksis - Muppet Wiki

Hey

Possessing all of the negative attributes of society, and none of the positive ones, the Skeksis live out a superficial existence of intrigue and plots against each other while struggling to retain their grip on Thra.

I have no grip so it can't be me you mean. Haha

 

[savagewind]

"Voodoo days"?

Voodoo days are calender days where activities that are not harmful in themselves become harmful because of what day you do them.

Ancient birthday celebrations were linked to the belief that the actual day of the child's birth was significant. So then each year there is a day of attention given to IT. There are still people who want to believe the day they were born has magical power but power is not what the anniversary of their birth signifies even for THEM.

I hear that twisting scriptures is what I do best so I know what what I am talking about. This is twisting: Christ followers will be no part of the world. What world? Custom? Isn't it political intrique that is "the world"? How to link a family/friends celebration of another person's birthday with political intrique? I don't know how to do it. Do you?
How do I know no part of the world does NOT mean customs of the world?

Colossians 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.

Romans 14:5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

Romans 14:3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them.

Ecclesiastes 3:12 I know that there is no good in them, but for a man to rejoice, and to do good in his life.

Ecclesiastes 3:13 And also that every man should eat and drink, and enjoy the good of all his labour, it is the gift of God.

Now what about the sure conviction that the two birthdays in the Bible mean God hates us to remember the day our loved ones were born?

Those two accounts share some similarities.

1. They were national celebrations
2. The celebrations were given for wicked people
3. The wicked people gave the celebration to themselves
4. I can't believe over indulgences weren't present.
5. I can't believe other sins weren't present
6. Because it was the king that held the celebration, attendence must have been mandatory.

Please compare all that to a family having cake and presents on a child's birthday.

The only similarities that I can see is the day always falls on the anniversay of birth and that the person whose birthday it is should be present. I think it would be good that if the birthday person does not want to wish and blow then he should not be obliged to do so. But I really see no harm in it and I can't believe it would be a determining factor in the person's everlasting actualization.

 

[Katzpur]

There is no reasoning with those who refuse to see. Here we go with the emotional argument again.

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with any of those things if done on any other day of the week that doesn't involve a celebration that God clearly condemned for his people because of its unclean spiritistic connections.

You are free to justify your involvement to yourselves. It isn't me you have to account to.

Just putting it out there because I am a messenger. You are free to ignore the message but none can claim ignorance as an excuse to continue.

It your choice and your conscience. My job is done.

Yeah, I think all of us would agree with that sentiment.

Oh, we should be so lucky.

I knew it was too good to be true.

If you could see this celebration from God's perspective, the emotional attachment most people have for this celebration would not sway them to keep doing it.

The Bible tells us to "hate what Jehovah hates". Does God hate celebrations that are tied up with spiritism and magic? What did he tell his ancient people when they were about to enter the Promised Land?

“When you have entered into the land that Jehovah your God is giving you, you must not learn to imitate the detestable practices of those nations. 10 There should not be found in you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, anyone who employs divination, anyone practicing magic, anyone who looks for omens, a sorcerer, 11 anyone binding others with a spell, anyone who consults a spirit medium or a fortune-teller, or anyone who inquires of the dead. 12 For whoever does these things is detestable to Jehovah, and on account of these detestable practices Jehovah your God is driving them away from before you." (Deut 18:9-12)

I think it is safe to say that God "hates" spiritism in all its forms. Why would they be "detestable" to him then but not now? The origin of birthdays is a matter of historical record.

According to authors Ralph and Adelin Linton, there is a definite connection between astrology and birthdays. They observe in their book The Lore of Birthdays: “Mesopotamia and Egypt, the cradles of civilization, were also the first lands in which men remembered and honoured their birthdays. The keeping of birthday records was important in ancient times principally because a birth date was essential for the casting of a horoscope.”

The Bible does not record the birth dates of even prominent men, such as Noah, Abraham, Moses, David—or Jesus Christ!
“To be sure there are birthday celebrations mentioned in the Bible, but only to commemorate the natal day of such wicked heretics as Pharaoh and Herod. When the early Christians were trying to fix the date of Christ’s birth, many of the Church Fathers considered it sacrilegious . . . They proclaimed that there should be no attempt to celebrate it, as this was an impious pagan custom.” (Lore of Birthdays)

“The notion of a birthday festival was far from the ideas of the Christians of this period in general.”—The History of the Christian Religion and Church, During the Three First Centuries , Augustus Neander (translated by Henry John Rose), p. 190.​

“The later Hebrews looked on the celebration of birthdays as a part of idolatrous worship, a view which would be abundantly confirmed by what they saw of the common observances associated with these days.”—The Imperial Bible-Dictionary Vol. I, p. 225.​

No, I see people desperate to hang on to something they want to keep. I see them minimizing and justifying clear directives from scripture that tell us to separate from these things. But it is your choice.

It is part of being "faithful in what is least". It is a test of our integrity in the small things.

As I have said before, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with having a party, giving gifts, or wishing someone a happy day. But when it is part of a celebration that God told his people to avoid and we do it anyway....where does that place us in God's eyes. Have we passed the test? Or joined the devil in his camp?

If God's laws were disobeyed in Bible times, sometimes dire consequences followed.
When a man went out to pick up firewood on the Sabbath, he was stoned to death for disobeying God's clear directive. Is the picking up of a few sticks for firewood a crime punishable by death in itself? This man may have also believed that it was a trivial thing to do and minimized it. God demonstrated that it is disobedience that merits the penalty, not necessarily the act itself. (Num 15:32-36)

LOL...that is like saying lets take all the heat out of the sun and pretend its the moon. Nice try.....

ChristineES, if you can read all that has been written and still want to celebrate anyone's birthdays, then what more can I say?

I don't know, but I bet we're all going to find out.

This is from Wiki page on birthdays....

"John Bugge (1975) Early Christians,” notes The World Book Encyclopedia, “considered the celebration of anyone’s birth to be a pagan custom.” The ancient Greeks, for instance, believed that each person had a protective spirit that attended the person’s birth and thereafter watched over him. That spirit “had a mystic relation with the god on whose birthday the individual was born,” says the book The Lore of Birthdays. Birthdays also have a long-standing and an intimate link with astrology and the horoscope. 11 Besides rejecting birthday customs on account of pagan and spiritistic roots, God’s servants of old likely rejected them on principle as well. Why? These were humble, modest men and women who did not view their arrival in the world as so important that it should be celebrated. (Micah 6:8; Luke 9:48) Rather, they glorified Jehovah and thanked him for the precious gift of life.—Psalm 8:3, 4; 36:9; Revelation 4:11. Virginitas: an essay in the history of a medieval ideal, Springer ISBN 9024716950, p. 69"

I rest my case. :sad:

Well, I doubt that very much.

"My job here is done. What more can I say? I rest my case." Anybody else starting to see a trend here?

 

[Shiranui117]

LOL...that is like saying lets take all the heat out of the sun and pretend its the moon. Nice try.....

Cake and candles and birthday cards and sleepovers/dinner/movies aren't pagan.

When's the last time you actually looked up what a modern birthday celebration is? You seem to be living in your own little world. We'd love to see you come out and enjoy reality.

 

[kjw47]

Cake and candles and birthday cards and sleepovers/dinner/movies aren't pagan.

When's the last time you actually looked up what a modern birthday celebration is? You seem to be living in your own little world. We'd love to see you come out and enjoy reality.

All knows what a birthday celebration is-- promoting self---
I personally have seen many use birthday as an excuse for excessive sin.
God deserves the honor for everyones birth--not the one birthed.

 

[JayJayDee]

I knew it was too good to be true.

I don't know, but I bet we're all going to find out.

Well, I doubt that very much.

"My job here is done. What more can I say? I rest my case." Anybody else starting to see a trend here?

Is there a problem? :ignore: Do I detect a hint of disagreement?

Do I see anyone with a big stick making you read the posts on this thread Katzpur?

But, thank you for posting all that very important information again.

 

[ChristineES]

All knows what a birthday celebration is-- promoting self---
I personally have seen many use birthday as an excuse for excessive sin.
God deserves the honor for everyones birth--not the one birthed.

I don't see a lot of people throwing birthday parties for themselves. And most people who are theists thank God for their life everyday, including, and sometimes mostly, on their birthdays. :flirt:

 

[savagewind]

All knows what a birthday celebration is-- promoting self---
I personally have seen many use birthday as an excuse for excessive sin.
God deserves the honor for everyones birth--not the one birthed.

How is it possible for a child to be promoting himself when his family gives him a special day? If anything it would be family promoting another family member. Is it a bad thing to encourage a loved one on his birthday?

A king giving himself a birthday celebration is promoting himself. A mother giving her child a celebration is not promoting herself and her child is not promoting herself. Modern birthday celebrations are not the same as the two biblical ones.

 

[JayJayDee]

If what has been written on this thread has not convinced you, then nothing will.
Justification and minimization will continue to be offered for perpetuating pagan customs that so many are emotionally attached to. The arguments always go back to emotional appeals whilst ignoring the evidence of God's displeasure about the origins of these celebrations. :ignore:

We have given you the Bible based reasoning behind our view.
If you decide to keep on doing what you love, then by all means continue. That is your right and your choice. Just remember that all choices have consequences. If you 'love' it and God 'hates' it, you are placing yourselves in an impossible situation, in all of what you choose to continue to practice as part of your daily lives.

You don't have to listen, no one is forcing you to stop practicing these things....but you have to understand that you are no longer ignorant of the facts.

 

[Shiranui117]

If what has been written on this thread has not convinced you, then nothing will.
Justification and minimization will continue to be offered for perpetuating pagan customs that so many are emotionally attached to. The arguments always go back to emotional appeals whilst ignoring the evidence of God's displeasure about the origins of these celebrations. :ignore:

Prove that modern-day birthday celebrations are pagan. Because you haven't done that yet in this entire thread.

You don't have to listen, no one is forcing you to stop practicing these things....but you have to understand that you are no longer ignorant of the facts.

We've never been ignorant of the facts.

 

[savagewind]

There is no proof God hates birthday celebrations and that God considers them "part of the world". It is simply inferred which is as good as guessing. When judging what God loves and hates guessing should have no part.

 

[james2ko]

There is no proof God hates birthday celebrations and that God considers them "part of the world". It is simply inferred which is as good as guessing. When judging what God loves and hates guessing should have no part.

True.. There is no direct proof, but the circumstantial evidence is too overwhelming for me to thumb my nose at... I choose to "guess" on the side of caution. I think of it this way--anything that is satan's favorite I choose to stay far away from it.