Christians can't be Anti-Semitic

[Estro Felino]

Not at all. I presented an ordained Catholic priest who is easily representative of many Christians.

Your instance that only the ideal you present can be held as authoritive is a fallacy; like most groups, Christianity is far too broad and diverse to be characterised by a single example, and there are both good and bad within the group. The Christian who firebombed his Jewish neighbor's house during kristallnacht is just as much part of the fabric of Christendom as is Father Cortese.

We all would like to ignore the bad within the groups we identify with and pretend it doesn't exist or claim that they can't be "real" members of the group, but to do so is detrimental to the group and often dangerous to society at large.

I would accept your reasoning if we Christians didn't believe in the Afterlife (in Hell and Heaven). We do believe in Hell and Heaven, so it doesn't really matter if someone consider themselves Christian in this life, even if they are not.
Because there will be eternal justice in the afterlife, and those who didn't act like Christians will get their eternal "reward".
(even Atheists can act like Christians...so it has nothing to do with religion)

 

[Tarheeler]

I would accept your reasoning if we Christians didn't believe in the Afterlife (in Hell and Heaven). We do believe in Hell and Heaven, so it doesn't really matter if someone consider themselves Christian in this life, even if they are not.
Because there will be eternal justice in the afterlife, and those who didn't act like Christians will get their eternal "reward".
(even Atheists can act like Christians...so it has nothing to do with religion)

But what does that have to do with the topic at hand?

Even if you believe that someone might experience eternal damnation for what they have done, it doesn't change the fact that individual Christians, ordained clergy, and official teachings have all been extremely antisemitic at various times throughout history. As I said earlier, they have often worked quite hard to find scriptural justification for it.

 

[Estro Felino]

But what does that have to do with the topic at hand?
Even if you believe that someone might experience eternal damnation for what they have done, it doesn't change the fact that individual Christians, ordained clergy, and official teachings have all been extremely antisemitic at various times throughout history. As I said earlier, they have often worked quite hard to find scriptural justification for it.

well...actually there is no anti-Semitism in the Bible.
By the way, as I said, we Christians don't really care that lots of anti-Semitic Christians went to Hell. We don't even care if the 85 % of Christians go to Hell, whether they are anti-Semitic or not.

So...true Christians cannot be against themselves. If they are, they are not true Christians.
Jesus said: "whatever you did to the least of my brothers and sisters, you did to me. ". Given that we believe that Jesus is God, if you kill a human being, you kill God.

 

[Levite]

Yesterday evening my mother and I talked about religion (as always). She's a traditional Catholic whereas I am a Pelagian. I asked her: "Why are we Christian sometimes accused of being anti-Semitic?"
she replied: "well...that's impossible. I can't be against myself. I am both a Jewish and a Christian, because Christianity includes necessarily the Jewish religion. So, even if Judaism is different because Jews didn't recognize Jesus, it doesn't matter. I can't see any difference between a Jew and me".

so...that's what my mother said. So, if you want to criticize this thought, do criticize her, not me.
thank you

Ridiculous. Christians are not Jews, that's just delusional cultural imperialism.

History amply demonstrates the ability of Christians to be anti-Semitic: polemics, canards, Crusades, pogroms beyond count, oppressive anti-Jewish laws, persecution by the Inquisition, burnings of Jewish holy books, the Holocaust....

 

[gsa]

well...actually there is no anti-Semitism in the Bible.
By the way, as I said, we Christians don't really care that lots of anti-Semitic Christians went to Hell. We don't even care if the 85 % of Christians go to Hell, whether they are anti-Semitic or not.

So...true Christians cannot be against themselves. If they are, they are not true Christians.
Jesus said: "whatever you did to the least of my brothers and sisters, you did to me. ". Given that we believe that Jesus is God, if you kill a human being, you kill God.

The Gospels of Matthew and John are easily construed as anti-Semitic. With Matthew, at least, this construction is highly doubtful, but this has not stopped Christians from using the writings for anti-Semitic purposes for two thousand years.

Tarheeler is right: You cannot just deem anti-Semitic Christians false Christians. A substantial number of Christians were anti-Semitic throughout the history of Christendom, and a substantial minority (at least hopefully a minority) remain so today.

 

[Tarheeler]

...
If they are, they are not true Christians.
...

Well, at least you're consistent.

 

[metis]

The minute we get into who is a "true Christian", "true Jew", "true Buddhist", etc., we're opening up a large can of worms. Instead, I believe a far better approach is to take ownership of the mistakes we've made, learn from them, and move on.

 

[Tali018]

FWIW

Christians and Anti-Semitism: A Calendar of Jewish Persecution

 

[Estro Felino]

Ridiculous. Christians are not Jews, that's just delusional cultural imperialism.

.

Precisely. that's a cultural matter. We Christian distinguish the Judaism as a religion from the Judaism as a culture\nation.
My mother meant we are Jews exclusively from a religious point of view, but we would never dare claim we are Jews by nationality, or by culture.

I understand that it's hard for you to separate religion from culture. But try to put yourselves in our shoes, and try to think of Judaism as a religion

 

[HonestJoe]

she replied: "well...that's impossible. I can't be against myself. I am both a Jewish and a Christian, because Christianity includes necessarily the Jewish religion."

By that argument, no Christian can be male because your mother isn't male. She might consider Judaism part of Christianity but lots of other Christians don't and they can be (and sometimes are) anti-Jewish.

So, if you want to criticize this thought, do criticize her, not me.

I do criticise her for not being anti-Jewish because she considers herself Jewish and rather than because it's simple wrong to dislike such a generically defined group of people.

But you can't tell that the authentic Christian, the one who imitates Jesus Christ is anti-Semitic.

That sounds a bit "No True Scotsman" to me.

Jesus is our model. and Jesus, the first Christian, was a Jew. so he couldn't be against Himself.

He was (as depicted in the Bible) racially Jewish but not necessarily religiously Jewish. It could be argued that he was very much against the Jewish religion since he started a movement against it that created a quite different religion.

Whether you call that anti-Semitic is a totally different question of course.

 

[viole]

Yesterday evening my mother and I talked about religion (as always). She's a traditional Catholic whereas I am a Pelagian. I asked her: "Why are we Christian sometimes accused of being anti-Semitic?"
she replied: "well...that's impossible. I can't be against myself. I am both a Jewish and a Christian, because Christianity includes necessarily the Jewish religion. So, even if Judaism is different because Jews didn't recognize Jesus, it doesn't matter. I can't see any difference between a Jew and me".

so...that's what my mother said. So, if you want to criticize this thought, do criticize her, not me.
thank you

Well, not recognizing the most important person, who even gave the name to the religion, is a sufficient condition to deduce that Christianity and Judaism are quite different.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Levite]

Precisely. that's a cultural matter. We Christian distinguish the Judaism as a religion from the Judaism as a culture\nation.
My mother meant we are Jews exclusively from a religious point of view, but we would never dare claim we are Jews by nationality, or by culture.

I understand that it's hard for you to separate religion from culture. But try to put yourselves in our shoes, and try to think of Judaism as a religion

Nope. Judaism is a socioreligious ethnicity: its cultural, national, and religious components are inextricably intertwined. There is no separating them.

Christians are not Jewish in any sense: religious, cultural, or national. None.

 

[Estro Felino]

Nope. Judaism is a socioreligious ethnicity: its cultural, national, and religious components are inextricably intertwined. There is no separating them.

Christians are not Jewish in any sense: religious, cultural, or national. None.

Of course we are not. But I think that Christians like my mother are free to consider themselves both Jewish and Christians. They don't harm anyone by thinking that. There is freedom of thought.

I just wanted to underline that this misconception is positive, because it makes people understand that Christians love Jews very very much. Even if it remains an erroneous thought

 

[Levite]

Of course we are not. But I think that Christians like my mother are free to consider themselves both Jewish and Christians. They don't harm anyone by thinking that. There is freedom of thought.

I just wanted to underline that this misconception is positive, because it makes people understand that Christians love Jews very very much. Even if it remains an erroneous thought

No, it just reinforces the misconception that it is harmless for non-Jews to appropriate Jewish identity for themselves, or that it is harmless for non-Jews to decide who is and isn't a Jew. That delegtimizes actual Jews and Judaism, and it isn't acceptable. It's cultural imperialism, and a kind of bigotry. The fact that it may masquerade as love or appreciation makes no difference.

Second of all, individual Christians may or may not love Jews. Christianity, as a whole, has not shown a love of Judaism in any significant way over the course of its existence. It has, on the contrary, been rife with anti-Semitism, from the Christian scriptures onward.

 

[Estro Felino]

No, it just reinforces the misconception that it is harmless for non-Jews to appropriate Jewish identity for themselves, or that it is harmless for non-Jews to decide who is and isn't a Jew. That delegtimizes actual Jews and Judaism, and it isn't acceptable. It's cultural imperialism, and a kind of bigotry. The fact that it may masquerade as love or appreciation makes no difference.

Yes, it is harmless. I am sorry, but it is. And it doesn't delegitimize you at all (how could it?). Because you keep making your faith stronger autonomously from us. We are free to think whatever we want, and you are free to say that we copied your religion.
But Christians' conjectures don't harm you Jews in any way.

 

[Estro Felino]

Tarheeler is right: You cannot just deem anti-Semitic Christians false Christians. A substantial number of Christians were anti-Semitic throughout the history of Christendom, and a substantial minority (at least hopefully a minority) remain so today.

Talking about the present, that minority are absolutely free to consider themselves "Christian", even if they aren't actually, given that a Christian by definition is supposed to love any nation of the world. And Jews, especially.

It's like you said that considering yourself a Christian, makes you Christian.
If I consider myself Jewish, does it make me Jewish?

 

[Levite]

Yes, it is harmless. I am sorry, but it is. And it doesn't delegitimize you at all (how could it?). Because you keep making your faith stronger autonomously from us. We are free to think whatever we want, and you are free to say that we copied your religion.
But Christians' conjectures don't harm you Jews in any way.

They do, and non-Jews don't get to decide what is and is not harmful to Jews about appropriating Jewish culture, religion, and identity. They just don't. The fact that you don't want to see how it is delegitimizing, offensive, and condescending doesn't make it so. It just makes it more insidious.

And by the way, it's you who accuse us of masked love.

Yes, because it's you who are appropriating our identity, culture, and/or religion: we aren't appropriating Christian identity or religion and calling it our own; and because we don't claim to love Christians as a whole, or Christianity. Saying "But Christians really love Jews-- we are Jews." is still just a mask for the same old bigotry.

 

[ChristineES]

Christians can and have been anti-Semitic. The history of the persecution of the Jewish people in Europe by Christian rigorists is a discouraging tale, rivaled only by the historical persecution of the Hindus in South Asia by Muslim rigorists.

Unfortunately, that's too true. The trend has turned around lately, however, and there are much, much less of anti-semitism within the faith. (I couldn't be anti-semitic, my maternal grandmother was Jewish).

 

[Estro Felino]

They do, and non-Jews don't get to decide what is and is not harmful to Jews about appropriating Jewish culture, religion, and identity. They just don't. The fact that you don't want to see how it is delegitimizing, offensive, and condescending doesn't make it so. It just makes it more insidious.

Is that what Jews normally think about us Christians?

Yes, because it's you who are appropriating our identity, culture, and/or religion: we aren't appropriating Christian identity or religion and calling it our own; and because we don't claim to love Christians as a whole, or Christianity. Saying "But Christians really love Jews-- we are Jews." is still just a mask for the same old bigotry.

Honestly...the purpose of this thread was to create sharing of knowledge and to try to debunk the myth of the anti-Semitic Christian.

By the way...we are the product of history and I didn't do anything wrong. It's not my fault if Christianity took the heredity of Judaism and Paganism.
Jesus is considered to be one the 5 prophets of Islam. A chapter from the Qur'an is called Maryam. We never accuse Muslims of stealing our identity.

 

[Flankerl]

Nazis, Esoterik, nordische Rasse, Mythologie, Runen, Bruderschaften, Thule, Vril, Edelweiß, 3. Reich

Hitler didn't believe in Christ and joined esoteric orders
http://www.etika.com/d49ns/49ns22hitler1.htm

Is that first link to be evidence in favour of your claim? You really need to study German more.

And that second link is even worse than the first one. Congratulation you found German Conspiracy Theories which are based within Esoteric thought.

Yes, you can be a Christian above-board and worship occult forces secretly. I hope you speak German

Nicht nur Hitler, auch seine Getreuen glaubten – aber nicht an den Christengott. „Adolf Hitler selbst und mit ihm ein Teil der Prominenten – allen voran Rudolf Heß, Heinrich Himmler, der Frankenführer Streicher und der damalige SA-Chef Ernst Röhm glaubten felsenfest an geheimnisvolle, übernatürliche Mächte – an magische Gewalten, den Einfluß der Gestirne, die Kraft von Amuletten, Maskottchen, Talismanen.“ Pater Prof. Alois Mager wußte, warum er von Salzburg aus jeden Abend gegen den Obersalzberg den Exorzismus betete. (das Neue Groschenblatt 3/2002)

Robin de Ruiter schreibt: „In Hitlers nächster Umgebung waren Illuminaten und Satanisten.“ Genannt werden unter anderen Rudolf Hess und Martin Bormann. (147)

The first part is: We REAL christians prayed against the Nazis. True story.

Robin de Ruiter is a dutch conspiracy theorist aka idiot.

My mother meant we are Jews exclusively from a religious point of view, but we would never dare claim we are Jews by nationality, or by culture.

Your mother was actually a true Christian. Why? No comprehension of Judaism or Jewish thought.

I just wanted to underline that this misconception is positive, because it makes people understand that Christians love Jews very very much.

Considering the last 1900 years, could you please stop loving us?