• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Christians- How do you know Jesus and the Bible are true?

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
You bring up a good point/question and the importance of rightly dividing the scriptures.

There are scriptures, as you pointed out, about watching and praying because Jesus comes as a thief in the night; unexpected.

Then there are those which state He will come in all His glory after all kinds of signs and world disasters to save the earth from destruction; every eye shall see Him (Revelation 1:7).
I am of the view that the unexpected first coming of Christ will be to call all believers/His church/bride to Himself before the final 7 year tribulation period on the earth. Christ does not set foot on earth at this point, but calls His Bride up to meet Him in the clouds (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 5:1-6), takes all believers to heaven where the marriage supper of the Lamb takes place ( Revelation 19:7-9).
When Christ returns to save the planet, the nation of Israel from destruction by the nation’s armies led by the antichrist, and to rule and reign everyone will see and know He has come.

My understanding is ‘every eye shall see Him’ is not referring to an instantaneous event but a gradual process over time when all will become believers. The Bible does not specify a timeframe so to read one into it is adding to the Book. The curse of the Book for adding to it I think is to be cast in hell. What is hell? My understanding is hell means to be far from God and heaven near to Him. So by ‘adding’ an interpretation that Christ’s coming will be an instantaneous event, Christians close the doors to the possibility that it might be a long term process so their punishment is that when Christ does not come instantly, they miss His coming and end up being in the hell of disbelief because they added to the book. The punishment is that they miss the second coming altogether.

Everything is not literal or to be taken literally in the Bible. It is a spiritual Book with deep meanings. For example, the Transfiguration of Christ when the disciples saw Moses, Elijah and the Heavenly Father was a vision.

Matthew 17:9

9 As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus commanded them, “Do not tell anyone about this vision until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.”

So it’s very important not to be misled by purely literal interpretations because not everything in the Bible is literal.

Another example: ‘let the dead bury the dead’ cannot be taken literally.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
You too believe Christ is true because of the Bible. Revelation states that no man on earth or heaven can unseal the Books.

Baha’is believe that the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, the Root of David is Baha’u’llah because He was descended from David through his father Jesse and also a descendant of Abraham through His wife Keturah.

The Lamb as if it was slain we believe to be the Bab Who was a Manifestation of God and Herald of Baha’u’llah- Christ returned in the station of the Father. It was the Bab Who first broke the seals by mentioning that the New Name was Baha’u’llah and when Baha’u’llah appeared He further unsealed the meanings of the Bible in numerous Tablets and His Book of Certitude.

The Bab opened six of the 7 seals in Rev 6 and who opens the last seal in Rev 8.
Salvation belongs to God and the Lamb. (Rev 7:10) The great multitude before the throne in Rev 7 have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev 7:14) They stand before the throne of God and the Lamb is at the centre of the throne. (Rev 7: 15-17)
The Kings of the earth flee from the face of the one who sits on the throne and the wrath of the Lamb. (Rev 6:15-17)
The Dragon (Satan) is cast out of heaven with his angels in Rev 12 and those people who overcome Satan do so by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony.

Rev 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
“Now have come the salvation and the power
and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Messiah.
For the accuser of our brothers and sisters,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.
11 They triumphed over him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.

It is the Lamb's book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the earth. (Rev 13:8)
It is Jesus who was chosen from before the foundation of the earth to unite all things in Him.

Ephesians 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

It is the Lamb who is standing on Mt Zion with the 144,000 (Rev:1) They were purchased and offered as first fruits to God and to the Lamb. (Rev 14:4)
Those who worship the beast and it's image and receive it's mark will be tormented in the presence of the Lamb and the Holy angels (Rev 14:10)
Song of Moses and of the Lamb (Rev 15:3)
War is waged against the Lamb who triumphs because He is the Lord of Lords and King of Kings. (Rev 17:14)
It is the wedding of the Lamb (Rev 19:7,9)
Rev 19:11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
king of kings and lord of lords.


The Lamb is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. The lamb's wrath is what we read about here (see Rev 6:15-16) It is the Son who rules the nations (His Kingdom is on the earth) with an iron sceptre. (see Psalm 2)
New Jerusalem is the bride of the Lamb (Rev 21:9)
God and the Lamb are the temple of New Jerusalem and the Lamb and the glory of God give it light.
(The glory of God,,,,, must be Baha'u'llah because he says he is the glory of God)
Actually it is God who gives light to the city (Rev 22:5)
Only those whose names are written in the Lambs book of life come into New Jerusalem. (Rev 21:27)
The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in New Jerusalem (Rev 22:3)

Rev 22:12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.
20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.”
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God’s people. Amen.

The Lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David in Revelation 5. Is this really Baha'u'llah who does not even open the seals of the scroll. The Lamb does that and is prominent in the rest of Revelation. He is the King of Kings the Lord of Lords as the Word of God is. The Lamb is Jesus in Revelation and it is Jesus whom is said, by name, to be coming and it is Jesus whom is said by name to be the Root and offspring of David.

Baha'u'llah is certainly not of the tribe of Judah. He was not even a Jew let alone a Jew of a certain tribe.
Since the Lamb opened the scroll that means that the Lion of the Tribe of Judah is the Lamb.
I don't know, I could go on for a long time about the Lamb in Revelation but if you cannot see from what Revelation tells us, that the Lamb who was slain is not The Bab then any more would have also been a waste of time to tell you.
 

Apostle John

“Go ahead, look up Revelation 6”
For me:
"Lord Jesus exists even now, because He appeared to me"

And now that I know that Jesus exists, I can believe Jesus existed 2000+ years ago

I’ve also been lucky to have experienced a Christophany, I also hear Him speak to me a lot and hope to share these words of knowledge/wisdom I’ve been lucky to have received on this forum some time in the future.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I find that generalization of using reason as the supreme or ultimate key to finding all truth, is not something that defines atheism. It is also found in large swaths of theism as well! What they are calling "faith" is really just them choosing to rely on the reasoning of others. It's still a reliance on reason, and not developing their own interior subjective, intuitive sense. They outright claim it should not be trusted! They claim you should rely on religious teachings instead as authoritative.

Relying strictly on the application of reason to the evidence of the senses to decide what is true about the world around us is what defines empiricism, which inevitably leads to agnostic atheism. I disagree that having faith in the thinking of others is relying on reason. It's still unjustified belief.

And then this exact same thing in found in large swaths of modern-day atheism as well. Any references to the subjective, are blasted out of the water as unreliable, and that you can only trust the evidence from science.

Are you sure that you don't mean empiricism? And yes, interpreting internal mental states as experiencing an external reality is a subjective judgement. I've also experienced moments of euphoria, connection, mystery, and gratitude, but I resist calling it experiencing a god or anything else other than my own mind. I don't need to. I don't benefit by so doing. It's a mistake made by many. The ancient Greeks didn't think that their own minds could create art, and so when they had an inspiration, they credited a muse with whispering it to them.

Likewise with dreams, who most these days understand to be products of their own minds, but others mistake as messages being delivered to them.

And likewise with internal moral conflicts, which are often depicted as a devil and an angel sitting on one's shoulder and arguing through one's ears. This is taught and believed as literally true by many. Satan is trying to steal your soul, we are told, so don't listen.

And many have decided that their endogenous psychological states suggest the existence of gods and spirits. The empiricist resists this kind of thinking, because as I said, it adds nothing to understanding or to the quality of conscious experience. In fact, I would call it antithetical to what I consider the most authentic spiritual experience, which doesn't involve spirits at all, but rather, is a direct connection to the world around us.

if someone has experience of something that is beyond normal human emotions into something transcendent, something ineffable or beyond being able to put into words, then that is something different. There is a referent. Words such as "transcendent", or "ineffable", or Absolute, are not theoretical ideas. They are exactly "derived from experience", or to use your favorite word, they are empirical in nature.

I say that there is no known referent to this intuition. The experience is of the intuition and not of anything else.

the negative side of modernity is to gut the Mystery of existence by offering "rational" explanations for everything.

I disagree. This is the empiricist and critical thinker as Roomba idea, and it is contradicted by most of the well-known faces of empiricism, who had a spiritual relationship with nature - people like Einstein, Feynman, and Sagan. Empiricism is how one decides what is true, not how one feels about it.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I’ve also been lucky to have experienced a Christophany, I also hear Him speak to me a lot and hope to share these words of knowledge/wisdom I’ve been lucky to have received on this forum some time in the future.

I believe we may share that. We can compare notes but often Jesus is giving personal information.
 

Apostle John

“Go ahead, look up Revelation 6”
I believe we may share that. We can compare notes but often Jesus is giving personal information.
Thank you. I believe a number of Christians receive words from the Godhead. Mine aren’t that personal but tend to be guidance and instruction I’m happy and comfortable doing. God told me I’m ‘charged’ with informing people of the forthcoming Tribulation. Other knowledgeable Christians are aware of these times as well. The signs the Lord Jesus told His disciples to watch out for in the Olivet discourse look like coming to fruition quickly.

I experience dreams, visions and signs as well as words. Most relate to the end of this age and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. The Christophany I was lucky to experience had a lot of Biblical symbolism regarding the Tribulation.
 

SDavis

Member
OK, so you "know" because of personal conviction, experiences and feelings. My point stands. This is entirely subjective, and believers in a hundred other, contradictory faiths, could make the same claim, with equal subjective "evidence."

And none of these ever met Jesus. They'd heard the gossip, and probably met some Christians, but the fact that Christians existed is evidence only that Christians existed, not that there was a god or that their teachings and stories were true.
Which is evidence only of the social change that accompanied the dissolution of empire, not that Christian folklore was true.
Yes, religions rise and fall, with the whims of politics.

OK, so you "know" because of personal conviction and feelings. My point stands. Your evidence is entirely subjective, and believers in a hundred other, contradictory faiths, could make the same claim, with equal subjective "evidence."

Roman historians kept fairly accurate records - as well as the Greeks. Being that all of this happened in the first century AD.

I didn't take the time to read everything you wrote - I just glanced here and there and each glance told me I've heard what you're saying before from other non-believers.

So I'll say this to each their own
 

InChrist

Free4ever
My understanding is ‘every eye shall see Him’ is not referring to an instantaneous event but a gradual process over time when all will become believers. The Bible does not specify a timeframe so to read one into it is adding to the Book. The curse of the Book for adding to it I think is to be cast in hell. What is hell? My understanding is hell means to be far from God and heaven near to Him. So by ‘adding’ an interpretation that Christ’s coming will be an instantaneous event, Christians close the doors to the possibility that it might be a long term process so their punishment is that when Christ does not come instantly, they miss His coming and end up being in the hell of disbelief because they added to the book. The punishment is that they miss the second coming altogether.

Everything is not literal or to be taken literally in the Bible. It is a spiritual Book with deep meanings. For example, the Transfiguration of Christ when the disciples saw Moses, Elijah and the Heavenly Father was a vision.

Matthew 17:9

9 As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus commanded them, “Do not tell anyone about this vision until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.”

So it’s very important not to be misled by purely literal interpretations because not everything in the Bible is literal.

Another example: ‘let the dead bury the dead’ cannot be taken literally.
Thanks for sharing your perspective. I agree that there are many places where the biblical scriptures are not to be taken literally. A lot depends upon the context. I do think though that it is very important to take the verses and passages literally if they are intended to be taken literally and when it makes sense to do so. The scriptures seem plain to me that the coming of Christ will be dramatic, instantaneous, and very obvious.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Roman historians kept fairly accurate records - as well as the Greeks. Being that all of this happened in the first century AD.

I didn't take the time to read everything you wrote - I just glanced here and there and each glance told me I've heard what you're saying before from other non-believers.

So I'll say this to each their own
I'm not aware of any contemporary, written, Roman records of Jesus, his life, his trial or his resurrection. There are records of Christians, of some of their beliefs, and their sometimes troublesome behavior, but no first-person accounts.
Accounts of The Man and his life were written by followers and supporters.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
I’ve also been lucky to have experienced a Christophany, I also hear Him speak to me a lot and hope to share these words of knowledge/wisdom I’ve been lucky to have received on this forum some time in the future.
:cool:
Nice to hear that God als speaks to you.

It's wonderful that our dear Lord of the large Universe makes time to personally guide us
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
The Bab opened six of the 7 seals in Rev 6 and who opens the last seal in Rev 8.
Salvation belongs to God and the Lamb. (Rev 7:10) The great multitude before the throne in Rev 7 have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev 7:14) They stand before the throne of God and the Lamb is at the centre of the throne. (Rev 7: 15-17)
The Kings of the earth flee from the face of the one who sits on the throne and the wrath of the Lamb. (Rev 6:15-17)
The Dragon (Satan) is cast out of heaven with his angels in Rev 12 and those people who overcome Satan do so by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony.

Rev 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
“Now have come the salvation and the power
and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Messiah.
For the accuser of our brothers and sisters,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.
11 They triumphed over him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.

It is the Lamb's book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the earth. (Rev 13:8)
It is Jesus who was chosen from before the foundation of the earth to unite all things in Him.

Ephesians 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

It is the Lamb who is standing on Mt Zion with the 144,000 (Rev:1) They were purchased and offered as first fruits to God and to the Lamb. (Rev 14:4)
Those who worship the beast and it's image and receive it's mark will be tormented in the presence of the Lamb and the Holy angels (Rev 14:10)
Song of Moses and of the Lamb (Rev 15:3)
War is waged against the Lamb who triumphs because He is the Lord of Lords and King of Kings. (Rev 17:14)
It is the wedding of the Lamb (Rev 19:7,9)
Rev 19:11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
king of kings and lord of lords.


The Lamb is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. The lamb's wrath is what we read about here (see Rev 6:15-16) It is the Son who rules the nations (His Kingdom is on the earth) with an iron sceptre. (see Psalm 2)
New Jerusalem is the bride of the Lamb (Rev 21:9)
God and the Lamb are the temple of New Jerusalem and the Lamb and the glory of God give it light.
(The glory of God,,,,, must be Baha'u'llah because he says he is the glory of God)
Actually it is God who gives light to the city (Rev 22:5)
Only those whose names are written in the Lambs book of life come into New Jerusalem. (Rev 21:27)
The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in New Jerusalem (Rev 22:3)

Rev 22:12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.
20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.”
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God’s people. Amen.

The Lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David in Revelation 5. Is this really Baha'u'llah who does not even open the seals of the scroll. The Lamb does that and is prominent in the rest of Revelation. He is the King of Kings the Lord of Lords as the Word of God is. The Lamb is Jesus in Revelation and it is Jesus whom is said, by name, to be coming and it is Jesus whom is said by name to be the Root and offspring of David.

Baha'u'llah is certainly not of the tribe of Judah. He was not even a Jew let alone a Jew of a certain tribe.
Since the Lamb opened the scroll that means that the Lion of the Tribe of Judah is the Lamb.
I don't know, I could go on for a long time about the Lamb in Revelation but if you cannot see from what Revelation tells us, that the Lamb who was slain is not The Bab then any more would have also been a waste of time to tell you.
If the Baha'is were going to make anyone the "Lamb", I would have thought it would have been Baha'u'llah. But, because it also uses "the Lamb that was slain", that gave the Baha'is the connection to the Bab. But then they had to find a reason why the Lamb that was slain was not Jesus. To that I believe they say that being crucified is not being "slain"? But being shot by a firiing squad is, therefore the Bab is the Lamb that was slain. It works for them. But they've got so much explaining to do to make others fall for their interpretation.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
If the Baha'is were going to make anyone the "Lamb", I would have thought it would have been Baha'u'llah. But, because it also uses "the Lamb that was slain", that gave the Baha'is the connection to the Bab. But then they had to find a reason why the Lamb that was slain was not Jesus. To that I believe they say that being crucified is not being "slain"? But being shot by a firiing squad is, therefore the Bab is the Lamb that was slain. It works for them. But they've got so much explaining to do to make others fall for their interpretation.

Yes loverofhumanity used the shot not crucified one but TransmutingSoul disagreed and I think loverofhumanity now goes along with TransmutingSoul.
But in Revelation the Lamb is identified as Jesus anyway (eg they are both called Lord of Lords and King of Kings.) and it is the Lamb who opens all the seals,,,,,,,,,, not the lion of the tribe of Judah.
So it is just the Lamb that was slain which forced Baha'is to say that the Lamb is The Bab, and the poor rank and file Baha'is have to try to somehow explain the unexplainable.
Cognitive dissonance must be through the roof in Baha'i and so the brains shut down and they just believe.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Relying strictly on the application of reason to the evidence of the senses to decide what is true about the world around us is what defines empiricism, which inevitably leads to agnostic atheism.
Why would you claim that? Isn't that kind of a no true Scotsman argument? "If he were a true empiricist, he would inevitably be an agnostic atheist too". You don't see it possible for an empiricist to come to any other conclusion than your own?

BTW, I don't understand this combination of agnosticism and atheism like this. Why not just say agnostic, which is a term created to distinguish it from atheism? If we can allow for that, can we then allow for saying I'm a theistic atheist? I don't see why not. That actually might describe me pretty well; a theistic atheist! :)

I disagree that having faith in the thinking of others is relying on reason. It's still unjustified belief.
Not according to them its not. It's justification in their minds may not be sufficient justification in yours, or mine for that matter, but that does not mean that it is without support in their thinking. The support they have is that "the Bible says it". They view that as a source of authority outside of themselves, which makes it "objective". It's the same thing in how you or I may justify our beliefs about say, evolution. We justify those beliefs through our trust in the sciences. They justify their beliefs through trust in the Bible.

It's the exact same process of justification, just with different sources of authority. The only difference is that we think science is more reliable than the Bible. They think the Bible is more reliable than science.

Once again, your notion of faith as unjustified belief, is itself an unjustified belief. I have many times explained the difference between faith and beliefs. Do you recall my arguments I have presented? Can you restate them to me if you understand the point I was making showing how they are not the same? That "unjustified belief" is something other to faith itself?

Bottom line, my argument that what they are doing is itself relying on reason, and therefore it's just another expression of rationalism, and therefore not faith, is that it relies on external sources of authority as justifications for their beliefs. It is relying on "right ideas", as opposed to sensed, felt, inuited, and firsthand experiential data of their own.

The entire world of apologetics is all about using reason to justify religious beliefs rationally. That's my point. It has nothing to do with actual faith. It has nothing to do with experiential information.

Are you sure that you don't mean empiricism?
We may be talking past each other in our language. If you were to read this article, can you explain what you see reflects your understanding of empiricism as opposed to rationalism as I hear in the neo-atheist camps which constantly cries for 'evidence', yet reject subjective experience as valid evidence.

Rationalism vs. Empiricism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

And yes, interpreting internal mental states as experiencing an external reality is a subjective judgement.
All interpretations of any experience whatsoever is a subjective experience, even if it is a direct experience of the external world. You touch the handle on your car door, your mind interprets that as your car door. That is a subjective interpretation. All of it is.

Where it becomes "objective reality", is when your subjective understanding or translation of the external world through your subjective interpretive mechanisms, matches others' understandings of the same experience for themselves. And that is facilitated through shared, common frames of reference, or system of symbolic meaning, carried through language. "Door handle". A "door handle" is a mental reality. A door handle is not something that exists outside of our minds. It's not a door handle outside of ourselves. It's just "x", that we label door handle because of the meanings we attach to it. It isn't objectively a door handle, but it is intersubjectively a door handle - to us.

So simply saying "oh, that's just a subjective experience, it isn't real evidence", as a great many atheists I have encountered a great many times, is a vacuous argument. If it is part of a shared or collective system of symbols and meaning, it's not just purely subjective. It is "objective" in that others with similar experiences share the same interpretive frameworks, therefore making it greater than just one individual. Once it's outside that individual and is a shared reality, it is for all intents and purposes "objective reality" to those who share that experience and that interpretive framework.

This is no different for our understanding of reality through the scientific framework. Again, this is a 30,000 foot view of these things, rather than a view looking out through any one particular framework as reality. Our ideas of reality, are an illusion of the mind, is this way.

I've also experienced moments of euphoria, connection, mystery, and gratitude, but I resist calling it experiencing a god or anything else other than my own mind.
If I thought of God as a wholly external entity that has form, outside of creation and myself, I would resist calling it God as well. But since I don't understand "God" that way, that excludes my own subjective nature, I have no problem calling it God, as I don't make that other disction you do in thinking of my own mind as other to the objective world.

You are correct in your thinking, from a dualistic perception of yourself as other to the world. But is dualistic thinking really reality itself? Not in my experience it isn't. It's a perception of reality, as reality to us.

I don't need to. I don't benefit by so doing. It's a mistake made by many. The ancient Greeks didn't think that their own minds could create art, and so when they had an inspiration, they credited a muse with whispering it to them.
My thoughts to this aren't all that well formed, but to take a stab at it anyway. When we experience something of ourselves that surpasses our own realizations about ourselves that we hold to be true, they are often interpreted by our minds as "other" to ourselves, or coming from somewhere else. A "miracle", or supernatural even. The internal subconscious mind externalizes it as 'foreign' or 'from above', or 'from below', etc, rather than from within. The reason is because it falls outside our sense of self-identify, things about ourselves we know and recognize.

So very much so, someone having a peak experience, a high-level state of consciousness that abruptly happens to them, something far beyond their own developed or integrated self-sense, that can be manifested as encountering "God", or some other angelic form or another. Heck, there are times in my writing music I surprise myself and find mindself saying "Where did that come from?!?" So, I can see how easily someone, like the Greeks you mentioned, see that as supernatural.

In a sense it is, and in another it is not. It's really relative to our own sense of the depths of reality, both within us and outside us, of which we are all participants within. If we step out of dualistic thought, dualistic reality, dualistic perception of ourselves as other to the world or the universe, or God, then the better way is to to understand it as simply as of yet unrealized potential that is there all the time available to us. This is difficult to put into words.

And many have decided that their endogenous psychological states suggest the existence of gods and spirits.
I'm going to share a quote that reflects my views about what God is, which is a reality, which is us, but the unrealized Self. These states, are hardly a "just" or a "mere" state. They are in reality, the gateways to realize that Potential that is us, that is "God". Spend a few moments processing this: (Emphasis mine)


"But this is not God as an ontological other, set apart from the cosmos, from humans, and from creation at large. Rather, it is God as an archetypal summit of one's own Consciousness. John Blofeld quotes Edward Conze on the Vajrayana Buddhist viewpoint: " 'It is the emptiness of everything which allows the identification to take place - the emptiness [which means "transcendental openness" or "nonobstruction"] which is in us coming together with the emptiness which is the deity. By visualizing that identification 'we actually do become the deity. The subject is identified with the object of faith. The worship, the worshiper, and the worshiped, those three are not separate' ". At its peak, the soul becomes one, literally one, with the deity-form, with the dhyani-buddha, with (choose whatever term one prefers) God. One dissolves into Deity, as Deity - that Deity which, from the beginning, has been one's own Self or highest Archetype."

~Ken Wilber, Eye to Eye, pg. 85​

BTW, if you'd like to get a better of understanding of where I am coming from in what I am trying to communicate, I'd highly recommend that book I just referenced. https://www.amazon.com/Eye-Quest-New-Paradigm/dp/157062741X/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=eye+to+eye+ken+wilber&qid=1676828638&sprefix=eye+to+eye+ken,aps,113&sr=8-1

Here's a quick blurb on the book from Amazon to maybe peak your interest:

In this book Wilber presents a model of consciousness that encompasses empirical, psychological, and spiritual modes of understanding. Wilber examines three realms of knowledge: the empirical realm of the senses, the rational realm of the mind, and the contemplative realm of the spirit. Eye to Eye points the way to a broader, more inclusive understanding of ourselves and the universe.
You see how it is I do embrace empiricism, yet don't limit understanding to just that mode alone? It is really more with an epistimological pluralism that I approach understating reality from; one that includes the eye of flesh (empirical sense data), the eye of mind (interpretive hermunical), and the eye of spirit (contemplative, gnostic).
 
Last edited:

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
The Bab opened six of the 7 seals in Rev 6 and who opens the last seal in Rev 8.
Salvation belongs to God and the Lamb. (Rev 7:10) The great multitude before the throne in Rev 7 have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev 7:14) They stand before the throne of God and the Lamb is at the centre of the throne. (Rev 7: 15-17)
The Kings of the earth flee from the face of the one who sits on the throne and the wrath of the Lamb. (Rev 6:15-17)
The Dragon (Satan) is cast out of heaven with his angels in Rev 12 and those people who overcome Satan do so by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony.

Rev 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
“Now have come the salvation and the power
and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Messiah.
For the accuser of our brothers and sisters,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.
11 They triumphed over him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.

It is the Lamb's book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the earth. (Rev 13:8)
It is Jesus who was chosen from before the foundation of the earth to unite all things in Him.

Ephesians 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

It is the Lamb who is standing on Mt Zion with the 144,000 (Rev:1) They were purchased and offered as first fruits to God and to the Lamb. (Rev 14:4)
Those who worship the beast and it's image and receive it's mark will be tormented in the presence of the Lamb and the Holy angels (Rev 14:10)
Song of Moses and of the Lamb (Rev 15:3)
War is waged against the Lamb who triumphs because He is the Lord of Lords and King of Kings. (Rev 17:14)
It is the wedding of the Lamb (Rev 19:7,9)
Rev 19:11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
king of kings and lord of lords.


The Lamb is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. The lamb's wrath is what we read about here (see Rev 6:15-16) It is the Son who rules the nations (His Kingdom is on the earth) with an iron sceptre. (see Psalm 2)
New Jerusalem is the bride of the Lamb (Rev 21:9)
God and the Lamb are the temple of New Jerusalem and the Lamb and the glory of God give it light.
(The glory of God,,,,, must be Baha'u'llah because he says he is the glory of God)
Actually it is God who gives light to the city (Rev 22:5)
Only those whose names are written in the Lambs book of life come into New Jerusalem. (Rev 21:27)
The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in New Jerusalem (Rev 22:3)

Rev 22:12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.
20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.”
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God’s people. Amen.

The Lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David in Revelation 5. Is this really Baha'u'llah who does not even open the seals of the scroll. The Lamb does that and is prominent in the rest of Revelation. He is the King of Kings the Lord of Lords as the Word of God is. The Lamb is Jesus in Revelation and it is Jesus whom is said, by name, to be coming and it is Jesus whom is said by name to be the Root and offspring of David.

Baha'u'llah is certainly not of the tribe of Judah. He was not even a Jew let alone a Jew of a certain tribe.
Since the Lamb opened the scroll that means that the Lion of the Tribe of Judah is the Lamb.
I don't know, I could go on for a long time about the Lamb in Revelation but if you cannot see from what Revelation tells us, that the Lamb who was slain is not The Bab then any more would have also been a waste of time to tell you.

The thing is your leaned about Jesus and accepted Him from reading the Bible and listening to sermons etc. That’s fine. But anyone who refuses to even look or ponder Jesus teachings will never come to know He is the Saviour. So the Jews only read their own scriptures and listen to their own leaders so they probably are never going to accept Jesus.

The same goes for Christians. If you only read the Bible and listen to sermons by priests who support your own views how are you going to be open minded when God sends another Messenger? You won’t be. Like the Jews you will quote your scriptures telling us you are right and all others wrong. So just like the Jews shut themselves out from Christ Christians will likely shut themselves out from the Promised One they have waited for centuries. So for the next 2,000 years like the Jews they will be heard repeating the worn out mantra- ‘He’s coming soon, He’s coming soon’ like the Jews but He came and passed by them yet they didn’t see Him because they closed their minds and hearts.

You won’t learn about Christ’s return from the Bible but by reading what Baha’u’llah said just like you learned Who Christ was from His Own Words.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Thanks for sharing your perspective. I agree that there are many places where the biblical scriptures are not to be taken literally. A lot depends upon the context. I do think though that it is very important to take the verses and passages literally if they are intended to be taken literally and when it makes sense to do so. The scriptures seem plain to me that the coming of Christ will be dramatic, instantaneous, and very obvious.

As long as we can make a clear distinction between dramatic and superstitious.

Dramatic has many meanings. Instantaneous can also be a life lived and very obvious in plain sight for all to see.

But Jesus message to the churches was ‘he that has eyes let him see and he that has ears let him hear’. Clearly not speaking about outward sight and hearing as we already all possess these at birth. He was speaking about insight and spiritual understanding.

The second coming is like a thief in the night because only those to have eyes to see will see it. The Jews read the signs wrongly and still to this day await Christ.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
The thing is your leaned about Jesus and accepted Him from reading the Bible and listening to sermons etc. That’s fine. But anyone who refuses to even look or ponder Jesus teachings will never come to know He is the Saviour. So the Jews only read their own scriptures and listen to their own leaders so they probably are never going to accept Jesus.

The same goes for Christians. If you only read the Bible and listen to sermons by priests who support your own views how are you going to be open minded when God sends another Messenger? You won’t be. Like the Jews you will quote your scriptures telling us you are right and all others wrong. So just like the Jews shut themselves out from Christ Christians will likely shut themselves out from the Promised One they have waited for centuries. So for the next 2,000 years like the Jews they will be heard repeating the worn out mantra- ‘He’s coming soon, He’s coming soon’ like the Jews but He came and passed by them yet they didn’t see Him because they closed their minds and hearts.

You won’t learn about Christ’s return from the Bible but by reading what Baha’u’llah said just like you learned Who Christ was from His Own Words.

That had nothing to do with what I posted about the Lamb in Revelation.
I learned who Christ was from His own words and the words of others in the NT and what is written in the OT.
If you want to learn about Christ's return by reading what Baha'u'llah said and ignoring what the Bible says I am not really surprised. That is what Baha'is seem to do.
The false Christ comes along and says, "It's me, the return of Christ and I can tell you what the Bible means when it speaks about the return of Christ". Many believe him because he seems like a servant of righteousness and even though what he says contradicts and is even the opposite to what the Bible says, they trust the false Christ and go with him and end up being torn to pieces and eaten because he was not harmless but a ravenous wolf.
Matt 7:15 Beware of false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them.
You close your eyes to the teachings and warnings in the Bible, that is a fruit of Baha'u'llah.
2 Corinthians 11:14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness.
This cannot be true, Satan does not even exist.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
That had nothing to do with what I posted about the Lamb in Revelation.
I learned who Christ was from His own words and the words of others in the NT and what is written in the OT.
If you want to learn about Christ's return by reading what Baha'u'llah said and ignoring what the Bible says I am not really surprised. That is what Baha'is seem to do.
The false Christ comes along and says, "It's me, the return of Christ and I can tell you what the Bible means when it speaks about the return of Christ". Many believe him because he seems like a servant of righteousness and even though what he says contradicts and is even the opposite to what the Bible says, they trust the false Christ and go with him and end up being torn to pieces and eaten because he was not harmless but a ravenous wolf.
Matt 7:15 Beware of false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them.
You close your eyes to the teachings and warnings in the Bible, that is a fruit of Baha'u'llah.
2 Corinthians 11:14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness.
This cannot be true, Satan does not even exist.

How did you learn about Christ. How did you know Christ wasn’t a false Prophet or the Bible was true? Jews will tell you that you are mistaken. How do you know you are right?
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The second coming is like a thief in the night because only those to have eyes to see will see it. The Jews read the signs wrongly and still to this day await Christ.
This is not a great analogy to try to claim a religious teacher in the mid 1800's is the return of the Christ. For one thing, a thief breaking in during the middle of the night, while unexpected and unanticipated, is 100% obvious to everyone who wakes up the next morning to find their homes ransacked!

There is no missing that there was a break in. Unless you wish to say like a comedian once said, "Someone broke into my house last night and replaced everything I own with exact replicas of them!" Right?

If you read those passages in scripture that reference this 2nd coming, it is all in the context of an apocalyptic, cataclysmic event that will come suddenly, but leave absolute devastation in its wake. There won't be any missing that something happened, just like that thief in the middle of night did not go unnoticed the next morning.

I think trying fit a modern day religious teacher claiming to be the 2nd coming of Christ (like so many before and since) into this verse is stretching possibility of interpretations beyond all reasonable understanding.
 
Last edited:
Top