Christians- How do you know Jesus and the Bible are true?

[Brian2]

So says people in Islam, Hinduism with Krishna as their personal deity who they have a relationship with and he answers their prayers because they feel it in their heart.

The fact remains that all of what you say is also evidence for things that you believe are FALSE.

I don't know how all of what I say is evidence for my beliefs can be evidence for things I believe are false.
Different religions have different evidence for their validity.
What I said was against the demands for only a certain sort of evidence, it was not for the specific evidence for each religion.

Jordon Peterson does not believe in a literal reading of the NT. He believes in the psychology of having hope and possibly a higher power. He does not believe in a resurrection and told that to Sam Harris.

It is not amazing that God will supply you with any answers. Because the key here is what you said - keep believing and keep seeking. As a Christian to later an atheist I was amazed at how little changed in life. If you seek for answers and have goals eventually you get answers and you meet goals and things come together. When you think it's a deity - Jesus, Krishna, Allah, you just place the credit on that. Even without a supernatural friend this is how things work.
If you are looking for reasons to believe any time you find an apologetic, meet someone like-minded, have something happen you pray for, you count it as a hit for a supernatural parent. Meanwhile you ignore all the misses and your deity cannot lose. It's a win-win of cognative bias.
Sikh, Scientologists, Muslims, Hindu, Christian, all religions do this. So does Law of Attraction people, New Age cults, Power of Positive Thinking people and any sort of modern wu. They all have that same claim. You can read the same stories from them as Christians claim about their experience with faith.
So what separates you from them? The Fatima healing shrines for the Virgin Mary are surrounded by crutches. The healing shrines of the pagan god Asklepios in Turkey and Greece also have many crutches. Neither have prosthetic limbs or witnesses of paraplegics whose lost limbs were restored.
Atheists also find answers, find jobs, have amazing coincidences and have chance meetings that end in careers or a life partner.

So these methods are not evidence. Just as it isn't proof that being an atheist or Hindu is clearly more true. This is all a cognitive bias to force a belief that evidence does not matter.

Jordan Peterson is a bit of an enigma on some issues of faith. He seems to be want to understand the literal teachings in non literal ways.
As for me I believe the literal story of Jesus and I hope that I do not ignore it when God does not give me what I ask for or when He does. I don't want to lose my faith in God because of not being given what I ask for. As with Jordon Peterson I want to live my life as if God exists and for me, as if the gospel story is true on the literal level as well as the deeper levels that it can point to.

When evidence contradicts a belief then it's time to assess beliefs and ask if they have actual evidence to support them. If you care about believing true things. You should not give up beliefs lightly, you should give them up when they are not supported by evidence. If you care about what is actually true.

I care about if the foundations of belief in the Bible and Jesus have been taken away and I notice that for some people that is the case and there are no foundations left. For me, I have to an extent examined many of the attacks on the what is in the Bible and have seen flaws in those attacks and so they have not served as things that destroy my faith completely even if they have been a kick in the guts to my faith for a time.
So for me the Bible is still true,,,,,,,,,,,,,, actually, even if I at times need to change my understanding of it, just as other Christians do, depending on what other things they view as also being true.

 

[Muffled]

Thank you. I believe a number of Christians receive words from the Godhead. Mine aren’t that personal but tend to be guidance and instruction I’m happy and comfortable doing. God told me I’m ‘charged’ with informing people of the forthcoming Tribulation. Other knowledgeable Christians are aware of these times as well. The signs the Lord Jesus told His disciples to watch out for in the Olivet discourse look like coming to fruition quickly.

I experience dreams, visions and signs as well as words. Most relate to the end of this age and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. The Christophany I was lucky to experience had a lot of Biblical symbolism regarding the Tribulation.

I believe I have dreams and visions from God as well but mine tend to be more personal.

 

[Muffled]

Nice to hear that God als speaks to you.

It's wonderful that our dear Lord of the large Universe makes time to personally guide us

I believe it is a trubute to God's glory that He listens to everyone. My intelligence has difficulty trying to listen to two people at a time.

 

[stvdv]

I believe it is a trubute to God's glory that He listens to everyone. My intelligence has difficulty trying to listen to two people at a time.

Indeed, that's another proof of God's existence/glory

 

[CG Didymus]

As a Baha'i you claim to uphold and and defend the Bible and Christ, and you might think that is what you are doing, but you have been deceived by a false Christ and false prophet.

I don't think Loverofhumanity is bothering answering my questions. I can understand why. Baha'is putting out their beliefs as if they are the absolute truth, yet your beliefs are absolutely wrong. But yours come from the Bible. So, I agree with you, the Bible and the Christ they claim to believe in is a watered-down version that only the verses that support their beliefs. They have no answer for the empty tomb or that Jesus had flesh and bone and that he was the only one that was qualified to pay for the sins of the world.

I question all of those things too, but then I don't turn around and say how much I love Jesus and the Bible.

 

[samtonga43]

I don't think Loverofhumanity is bothering answering my questions. I can understand why. Baha'is putting out their beliefs as if they are the absolute truth, yet your beliefs are absolutely wrong. But yours come from the Bible. So, I agree with you, the Bible and the Christ they claim to believe in is a watered-down version that only the verses that support their beliefs. They have no answer for the empty tomb or that Jesus had flesh and bone and that he was the only one that was qualified to pay for the sins of the world.

I question all of those things too, but then I don't turn around and say how much I love Jesus and the Bible.

The difference is that you have reason and intelligence on your side. From what I have seen of MrB's admirers on this forum, they have neither.

 

[CG Didymus]

The difference is that you have reason and intelligence on your side. From what I have seen of MrB's admirers on this forum, they have neither.

Yeah, I learned the hard way. I was taught about the Baha'i Faith before I had read the NT. When I read it for myself, it amazed me how much of the story about Jesus was left out by Baha's. And ironically, Baha'is say to investigate the different religions without prejudices and preconceived ideas. But then their teachings tell them what is true and what to believe about the other religions.

If they were truly about oneness and accepting all people and all religions, that would be different. But as we can see, it is about them being the one and only truth for today. And any religious idea that conflicts with what Baha'is say is true... is wrong. I don't know how they can really accomplish bringing peace and unity to the world when that is part of what they believe. The best they can say is that at one time, the other religions were true, but now they are not.

 

[joelr]

I don't know how all of what I say is evidence for my beliefs can be evidence for things I believe are false.
Different religions have different evidence for their validity.
What I said was against the demands for only a certain sort of evidence, it was not for the specific evidence for each religion.

I'm dealing with this type of evidence - " their personal deity who they have a relationship with and he answers their prayers because they feel it in their heart."

This is not exclusive to Jesus, I hear the exact same things from Hindu with Krishna. All anecdotal evidence is found equally in all religions and cults and new age movements.

Jordan Peterson is a bit of an enigma on some issues of faith. He seems to be want to understand the literal teachings in non literal ways.
As for me I believe the literal story of Jesus and I hope that I do not ignore it when God does not give me what I ask for or when He does. I don't want to lose my faith in God because of not being given what I ask for. As with Jordon Peterson I want to live my life as if God exists and for me, as if the gospel story is true on the literal level as well as the deeper levels that it can point to.

Jordan Peterson seems weary of admitting he finds religion to be stories that are not literally true.
Why would you find the Jesus story to be literal?

I care about if the foundations of belief in the Bible and Jesus have been taken away and I notice that for some people that is the case and there are no foundations left. For me, I have to an extent examined many of the attacks on the what is in the Bible and have seen flaws in those attacks and so they have not served as things that destroy my faith completely even if they have been a kick in the guts to my faith for a time.
So for me the Bible is still true,,,,,,,,,,,,,, actually, even if I at times need to change my understanding of it, just as other Christians do, depending on what other things they view as also being true.

I have spoken about Biblical historicity with you , you did not demonstrate flaws? You just ignored it or waved it off.

 

[Brian2]

I'm dealing with this type of evidence - " their personal deity who they have a relationship with and he answers their prayers because they feel it in their heart."

This is not exclusive to Jesus, I hear the exact same things from Hindu with Krishna. All anecdotal evidence is found equally in all religions and cults and new age movements.

Yes people from different religions can have similar experiences.

Jordan Peterson seems weary of admitting he finds religion to be stories that are not literally true.
Why would you find the Jesus story to be literal?

Is there reason to find it not literally true. The New Testament was written soon enough after the life of Jesus and is supposed to be witness accounts largely.

I have spoken about Biblical historicity with you , you did not demonstrate flaws? You just ignored it or waved it off.

There was a lot of stuff you presented and if we are talking about the same things, it was premised on the theory that supernatural is not true in religious scriptures and that the Bible was plagiarised from other religions.
You were insisting that these things were correct but as far as I could see it was all speculation.

 

[joelr]

Yes people from different religions can have similar experiences.

Right and you don't believe Krishna or Allah is real yet they claim the same experiences.

Is there reason to find it not literally true. The New Testament was written soon enough after the life of Jesus and is supposed to be witness accounts largely.

No, Jesus died around 33 CE. Mark was written around 70 CE. 40 years later a story is being re-told. Then when Mark is analyzed it uses 100% fictive mythic languages, ring structure, chiasmus, parables, no sources, no explanations of odd events (like Josephus or any historian of the day would do), Jesus scores almost 100% on the Rank-Ragalin mythotype scale, Mark is definitely using OT narratives, often verbatim, he also uses stories from the Epistles changed into earthly stories, as well as other fiction.
It's 100% a work of fiction.
Several of the cycles and borrowings are explained here:
The Gospels as Allegorical Myth, Part I of 4: Mark

but there is much more.

There was a lot of stuff you presented and if we are talking about the same things, it was premised on the theory that supernatural is not true in religious scriptures and that the Bible was plagiarised from other religions.
You were insisting that these things were correct but as far as I could see it was all speculation.

You have no actual evidence of the supernatural. Just stories written as fiction.

It is 100% fact that the theology in the Bible is found in older religions. That much is not speculation, that is fact.
Genesis re-working Mesopotamian stories is also considered fact, the evidence is far too strong to be coincidence.

Flood Myths Older Than The Bible - Dr. Joshua Bowen

Assyriologist who specialized in Sumerian literary and liturgical compositions


1:25

OT scholars will say Genesis is using a Mesopotamian background and apologist will say

“Well no, there is no literary evidence that shows it borrowed, we cannot show literal evidence”…”it was in the air”….”how do you know it wasn’t true”…….somehow downplaying the Mesopotamian background…

2:57 Dr Josh Bowen - there is no question as far as Biblical scholars and Assyriologists are concerned that the Biblical text is much later than Mesopotamian text and it’s borrowing directly or subtly from Mesopotamia.

References monograph - Subtle Citation, Allusion and Translation in the Hebrew Bible by Z. Zevit. Explains intertexuality and what Hebrew Bible is doing. Not seen as plagiarism in the ancient world.

21:00

Enuma Elish, Babylonian creation myth Genesis 1 borrows from, is recited every year at the New Years festival. Exiled Israelite kings were in captivity in Babylonia. Genesis was written after the Exile.

Genesis demythicizes the Babylonian stories.

23:22

“(Well we don’t know which came first), is nonsense, we do know. The textual tradition for the flood story is much much earlier than the Biblical text. Israel is NOT EVEN A……”


Does the Bible Borrow from other Myths?

Megan Lewis explains how the Bible is borrowing from the Mesopotamian stories. This intertextuality is usually ignored or rationalized by Jewish/Christian Apologist to say that the other cultures borrowed from the Bible instead of visa-versa


7:14 further explanation on intertexuality, ancient Israelites would be using original source material (Mesopotamian) and using it and expanding on it. Israelites use this story to create new version with a more just deity. Basically same story.

 

[Kenny]

I don't know how all of what I say is evidence for my beliefs can be evidence for things I believe are false.
Different religions have different evidence for their validity.
What I said was against the demands for only a certain sort of evidence, it was not for the specific evidence for each religion.




Jordan Peterson is a bit of an enigma on some issues of faith. He seems to be want to understand the literal teachings in non literal ways.
As for me I believe the literal story of Jesus and I hope that I do not ignore it when God does not give me what I ask for or when He does. I don't want to lose my faith in God because of not being given what I ask for. As with Jordon Peterson I want to live my life as if God exists and for me, as if the gospel story is true on the literal level as well as the deeper levels that it can point to.



I care about if the foundations of belief in the Bible and Jesus have been taken away and I notice that for some people that is the case and there are no foundations left. For me, I have to an extent examined many of the attacks on the what is in the Bible and have seen flaws in those attacks and so they have not served as things that destroy my faith completely even if they have been a kick in the guts to my faith for a time.
So for me the Bible is still true,,,,,,,,,,,,,, actually, even if I at times need to change my understanding of it, just as other Christians do, depending on what other things they view as also being true.

I find the Bible is filled with truth and life.

I love this statement, "I want to live my life as if God exists and for me, as if the gospel story is true on the literal level as well as the deeper levels that it can point to."

Personally, I can't say I have been "kicked in the gut to my faith". Don't know why.

Maybe because of my experiences and being filled with the Holy Spirit by which I cry "Abba, Father"? Who knows.

Happy that you have held on.

 

[Kenny]

The difference is that you have reason and intelligence on your side. From what I have seen of MrB's admirers on this forum, they have neither.

Perhaps a subjective viewpoint.

 

[Brian2]

Right and you don't believe Krishna or Allah is real yet they claim the same experiences.

Yes I have decided that the gospels about Jesus are true and the stories about Krishna are probably made up and Muhammad is a false prophet. But that is not to do with experiences that people have.

No, Jesus died around 33 CE. Mark was written around 70 CE. 40 years later a story is being re-told. Then when Mark is analyzed it uses 100% fictive mythic languages, ring structure, chiasmus, parables, no sources, no explanations of odd events (like Josephus or any historian of the day would do), Jesus scores almost 100% on the Rank-Ragalin mythotype scale, Mark is definitely using OT narratives, often verbatim, he also uses stories from the Epistles changed into earthly stories, as well as other fiction.
It's 100% a work of fiction.
Several of the cycles and borrowings are explained here:
The Gospels as Allegorical Myth, Part I of 4: Mark

but there is much more.

The evidence shows the gospels were written (except for John) in the 50s and 60s.
People who put the synoptic gospels later than 70AD deny that supernatural prophecy is real and so say that synoptic gospels were written after 70AD, the date of the temple destruction. So skeptic historians do that (even if they call themselves Christians) and they you and others come along and say the gospels were written after 70AD by people who did not know Jesus. So it starts with the presumption that the stories were fiction and ends with a conclusion that the stories are fiction. It is circular reasoning even if modern skeptical historians provide the first part of the circle and you and other skeptics provide the rest of the circle. (But I'm sure many skeptical historians provide the ready drawn full circle)

You have no actual evidence of the supernatural. Just stories written as fiction.

I have evidence of the stories of the experiences of people and as I have said above, skeptics try to trash to make it look as if it is not evidence of anything.

It is 100% fact that the theology in the Bible is found in older religions. That much is not speculation, that is fact.
Genesis re-working Mesopotamian stories is also considered fact, the evidence is far too strong to be coincidence.

Flood Myths Older Than The Bible - Dr. Joshua Bowen

Assyriologist who specialized in Sumerian literary and liturgical compositions


1:25

OT scholars will say Genesis is using a Mesopotamian background and apologist will say

“Well no, there is no literary evidence that shows it borrowed, we cannot show literal evidence”…”it was in the air”….”how do you know it wasn’t true”…….somehow downplaying the Mesopotamian background…

2:57 Dr Josh Bowen - there is no question as far as Biblical scholars and Assyriologists are concerned that the Biblical text is much later than Mesopotamian text and it’s borrowing directly or subtly from Mesopotamia.

References monograph - Subtle Citation, Allusion and Translation in the Hebrew Bible by Z. Zevit. Explains intertexuality and what Hebrew Bible is doing. Not seen as plagiarism in the ancient world.

21:00

Enuma Elish, Babylonian creation myth Genesis 1 borrows from, is recited every year at the New Years festival. Exiled Israelite kings were in captivity in Babylonia. Genesis was written after the Exile.

Genesis demythicizes the Babylonian stories.

23:22

“(Well we don’t know which came first), is nonsense, we do know. The textual tradition for the flood story is much much earlier than the Biblical text. Israel is NOT EVEN A……”

Enuma Elish is very different from Genesis .

Does the Bible Borrow from other Myths?

Megan Lewis explains how the Bible is borrowing from the Mesopotamian stories. This intertextuality is usually ignored or rationalized by Jewish/Christian Apologist to say that the other cultures borrowed from the Bible instead of visa-versa


7:14 further explanation on intertexuality, ancient Israelites would be using original source material (Mesopotamian) and using it and expanding on it. Israelites use this story to create new version with a more just deity. Basically same story.

The flood story in earlier writings is just evidence that the Genesis flood is real.
The historians you read are skeptics who bring skepticism into their historical analysis of spiritual books and presume the supernatural is not true and instead of saying "we don't know about the supernatural", they go straight for the jugular of spiritual stories and preach that they are fictions derived from earlier fictions.

 

[Brian2]

I find the Bible is filled with truth and life.

I love this statement, "I want to live my life as if God exists and for me, as if the gospel story is true on the literal level as well as the deeper levels that it can point to."

Personally, I can't say I have been "kicked in the gut to my faith". Don't know why.

Maybe because of my experiences and being filled with the Holy Spirit by which I cry "Abba, Father"? Who knows.

Happy that you have held on.

I'm sure it is God who has held me here.

 

[Kenny]

It is 100% fact that the theology in the Bible is found in older religions. That much is not speculation, that is fact.
Genesis re-working Mesopotamian stories is also considered fact, the evidence is far too strong to be coincidence.

Flood Myths Older Than The Bible - Dr. Joshua Bowen

I think this is more of two people looking at the same evidence and coming to a different conclusion.

As I view it, I see it as a confirmation that a flood did happen and that the different religions reported on it.

 

[samtonga43]

Perhaps a subjective viewpoint.

Indeed, Kenny, my viewpoint IS subjective. I can only speak for myself.

 

[samtonga43]

I find the Bible is filled with truth and life.
I love this statement, "I want to live my life as if God exists and for me, as if the gospel story is true on the literal level as well as the deeper levels that it can point to."

In my many years as an atheist, I read the Bible in order to "see what all the fuss is about".

To me, at that time, it was easily dismissed as nonsense, and those who took it seriously were deluded. I read it in one year from Genesis to Revelation and carried around in my head the many questions which had convinced me, and would surely convince Christians that they had talked themselves into believing that God is real.

I delighted in any opportunity to confront Christians with the 'truth'. I was as sure of my anti-Christian stance as I could be, my views influenced by my idols -- Dawkins, Hawking, Hitchens, Harris et al.
***************************************************
And now? I am as sure of my Christian belief as I could be.
But this is a different kind of certainty, and I am glad.
I cannot prove any of my Christian beliefs, and I know that the other Christians here will understand when I say that this simply does not matter.

Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1​

 

[idea]

I believe it is a trubute to God's glory that He listens to everyone. My intelligence has difficulty trying to listen to two people at a time.

I believe it is a tribute to God's non-existance that he doesn't listen, and doesn't answer prayers. Those from privileged backgrounds unfamiliar with war, abuse, starvation - the privileged pretend *god* is taking care of it so they need not worry I suppose.

 

[Kenny]

In my many years as an atheist, I read the Bible in order to "see what all the fuss is about".

To me, at that time, it was easily dismissed as nonsense, and those who took it seriously were deluded. I read it in one year from Genesis to Revelation and carried around in my head the many questions which had convinced me, and would surely convince Christians that they had talked themselves into believing that God is real.

I delighted in any opportunity to confront Christians with the 'truth'. I was as sure of my anti-Christian stance as I could be, my views influenced by my idols -- Dawkins, Hawking, Hitchens, Harris et al.
***************************************************
And now? I am as sure of my Christian belief as I could be.
But this is a different kind of certainty, and I am glad.
I cannot prove any of my Christian beliefs, and I know that the other Christians here will understand when I say that this simply does not matter.

Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1​

Beautifully said!

 

[CG Didymus]

No, Jesus died around 33 CE. Mark was written around 70 CE. 40 years later a story is being re-told. Then when Mark is analyzed it uses 100% fictive mythic languages, ring structure, chiasmus, parables, no sources, no explanations of odd events (like Josephus or any historian of the day would do), Jesus scores almost 100% on the Rank-Ragalin mythotype scale, Mark is definitely using OT narratives, often verbatim, he also uses stories from the Epistles changed into earthly stories, as well as other fiction.
It's 100% a work of fiction.
Several of the cycles and borrowings are explained here:
The Gospels as Allegorical Myth, Part I of 4: Mark

Here's a quote from that link...

Instead, the Gospels appear to be fictional historical biographies, likely written by specially interested Christians whose intent was to edify Jesus, just like many other fictional historical biographies that were made for various heroes and sages in antiquity.
​

For me, I find that very believable. Why wouldn't the stories be, in the very least, embellished? But can an embellished, mythical, fictional story have the impact and change the lives of people? I don't think it can as much as when those possibly fictional stories are believed as true. I've know Christians completely in love with Jesus and the Bible and being filled with the Spirit. But, when they have fallen and began to doubt, I've seen them lose the faith and trust in those beliefs. It doesn't work, or at least not as well, unless a person believes as completely as they can. And, of course, when doubts creep in, to deny them and claim that Satan is trying to cause them to doubt. For them, it is real and true.

Problem is... Other people in some of the other religions do the same things with their Scriptures. They believe it is The Truth. And their Truth contradicts the beliefs and the Truth of the people in some of the other religions.

Some of them, like the Baha'i Faith, tries to reconcile all those differences, but by doing so, they have to deny the way some of those believers take their Scriptures, as being the real, historical and literal truth. Using the example of those literal-believing Evangelical Christians, the Baha'i interpretation takes away some of the core their beliefs, like a belief in Satan, the flood, creation and the resurrection. Then the ultimate question becomes is the Baha'i Faith real? Are they based on myth and fiction and borrowed stories? For me, the greatest myth they present as true is that all the other religions were revealed by the one and only God, the God they believe in. I don't see that. To me, it seems very likely each people and culture made up their own Gods and religion. But, then again, if people believe in the Baha'i version of truth, I'm sure it's working for them... as long as they keep believing it as truth.