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Christians- How do you know Jesus and the Bible are true?

Brian2

Veteran Member
The authors of the Gospels were thus more concerned with gathering a collection of their communities’ teachings and organizing them into a cohesive narrative, similar to the anonymous, third person narratives found in the Old Testament. As Armin Baum (“The Anonymity of the New Testament History Books,” p. 142) explains, “The anonymity of the Gospels is thus rooted in a deep conviction concerning the ultimate priority of their subject matter.” This is not at all the case for Tacitus. We might be suspicious of the authorial attribution (at least to the extent that the Histories can be considered Tacitus’ own version of events), if Tacitus had merely copied from 80% of the material of an earlier author (as the Gospel of Matthew did) in order to write a highly anonymous narrative. Instead, Tacitus wrote in a unique Latin style that distinguished him as an individual, personal author, and he likewise comments on the events within his narrative from his own personal point of view.

The continuation of the OT anonymous authorship might be a reason for anonymity. It does not mean that the early Church did not know who wrote them however and it does not mean that the skeptic presumption of no true prophecies and so written after 70AD is true either.

We have seen above that the internal evidence does not support Matthew, Mark, or John as the authors of the gospels attributed to them. What about Luke? The Gospel of Luke and Acts are attributed to Luke, the traveling attendant of Paul. This is all very interesting, since we possess 7 undisputed epistles of the apostle Paul in the New Testament (6 of the traditional letters of Paul—Ephesians, Colossians, 2 Thessalonians, 1 and 2 Timothy, and Titus—are of disputed authorship and are possibly forgeries, as explained by Ehrman in Forged: Writing in the Name of God.)

Ehrman is extreme in his views about the authorship of the various books and epistles as far as I know. He is recognized as a good scholar but much of his opinions are disputed.

If Luke was Paul’s attendant, then corroborating details between Acts and the Pauline epistles may support the claim that Luke authored Acts; however, scholars often find the opposite to be the case.[17] To name a few discrepancies:

  • In Acts 9:26-28, Paul travels from Damascus to Jerusalem only “days” (Acts 9:19; 9:23) after his conversion in Acts 9:3-8, where Barnabas introduces him to the other apostles. However, in his own writings (Galatians 1:16-19), Paul states that he “did not consult any human of flesh and blood” after his conversion (despite consulting Ananias and preaching in the synagogues of Damascus after his conversion in Acts 9:17-22), but instead traveled into Arabia (which Acts makes no mention of), and did not travel to Jerusalem until “three years” after the event, where he only met Peter and James.[18]
  • In Acts 16:1-3, Paul has a disciple named Timothy, who was born from a Greek father, be circumcised “due to the Jews who lived in that area.” However, this goes against Paul’s own deceleration (Galatians 2:7) “of ministering the gospel to the uncircumcised.” Likewise, in Galatians 2:1-3, Paul brings another Gentile disciple, Titus, to the Jewish community in Jerusalem, but particularly insists that Titus not be circumcised.[19] Likewise, in 1 Corinthians 7:20, Paul states regarding circumcision, “Each should remain in the condition in which they were called to God.”
  • In Galatians 2:6, Paul makes it clear that his authority is equal to the original apostles, stating, “Of whatever sort they were makes no difference to me; God does not show partiality—their opinions added nothing to my message.” However, in Acts 13:31, Paul grants higher authority to those who originally “witnessed” Jesus. Likewise, Acts 1:21 restricts the status of “apostle” to those who had originally been with Jesus during his ministry, despite Paul’s repeated insistence that he was an apostle within his own letters (1 Corinthians 9:1-2).
In light of these and other discrepancies between Paul’s own recollections and how he is depicted in Acts, many scholars agree that the author of Luke-Acts was probably not an attendant of Paul (the speculation that he was is based largely on the ambiguous use of the first person plural in a few sections of Acts, to be addressed below). Nevertheless, the author of Luke-Acts clearly had a strong interest in Paul. However, the Oxford Annotated Bible (p. 1919) points out that the author “was probably someone from the Pauline mission area who, a generation or so after Paul, addressed issues facing Christians who found themselves in circumstances different from those addressed by Paul himself.” Hence, we once more have an anonymous author who was distanced from the various traditions and stories that he later compiled as a non-eyewitness.


1) Acts 9:26 says 26 When he came to Jerusalem, he tried to join the disciples, but they were all afraid of him, not believing that he really was a disciple. 27 But Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles.

It does not say how long it was before he came to Jerusalem (could have been years) and does not say how many apostles he spoke to (could have been only 2). Also "did not consult any human of flesh and blood" is referring to not consulting people about what the gospel was,,,,,,,,,,, iow it does not mean that he did not speak to people or even speak to Christians.

2)Considering Acts 16:1-3 and Gal 2:1-3,7. It is interesting that there is no evidence of pre Mishnaic Jews believing that a child of mixed marriage followed what the mother was.
Nevertheless that does not mean Timothy was or was not considered a Jew and Paul seemed to want to have Timothy circumcised so that Timothy would come with Paul on his journeys and help preach the gospel among Jews at times and he would not have been able to do that as an uncircumcised gentile.
Paul did not force Titus to be circumcised and I suppose Titus was not working with Paul among the Jews. When Paul took Titus a Gentile to Jerusalem it was to other Christians where separate should not happen but which some Jewish Christians were still doing from gentiles (see Gal 2:11-14)
It is interesting that when Paul met Timothy, Paul was taking the message about circumcision and obeying the Law of Moses to the churches (Acts 15, Acts 16:4), so we can easily see why Paul wanted Timothy to be circumcised and it stands the test of the epistles to Timothy being to a young leader, which Paul seemed to have in mind for Timothy.

3) There are many other than Paul and the original 12 who are called apostles in the New Testament.
Acts 13:31 and Acts 1:21 do not say anything about apostles.
Acts 13:31 and for many days he was seen by those who had traveled with him from Galilee to Jerusalem. They are now his witnesses to our people.
Actually Paul did witness Jesus and it is agreed by Peter that he was to take the gospel to the gentiles.

So we see there is no discrepancy in what Luke says in Acts and what Paul says, so that way of showing that Luke was not with Paul is no good.
Luke who wrote the gospel of Luke and Acts was with Paul on his journeys and could died with Paul when Paul went to Rome at the end of Acts.
Certainly he did not record the death of Paul in Acts or what happened with Paul.
So Paul and Luke probably died in the persecution under Nero (64AD) and so the gospel of Luke and Acts were written before then, with the gospel being written first. And if Luke copied Mark, then Mark was written before Luke.
 
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Muffled

Jesus in me
In my many years as an atheist, I read the Bible in order to "see what all the fuss is about".

To me, at that time, it was easily dismissed as nonsense, and those who took it seriously were deluded. I read it in one year from Genesis to Revelation and carried around in my head the many questions which had convinced me, and would surely convince Christians that they had talked themselves into believing that God is real.

I delighted in any opportunity to confront Christians with the 'truth'. I was as sure of my anti-Christian stance as I could be, my views influenced by my idols -- Dawkins, Hawking, Hitchens, Harris et al.
***************************************************
And now? I am as sure of my Christian belief as I could be.
But this is a different kind of certainty, and I am glad.
I cannot prove any of my Christian beliefs, and I know that the other Christians here will understand when I say that this simply does not matter.

Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1
As good as the Bible is for making converts, there is nothing in it that will automatically convert a person. There is information , if believed that can lead to conversion. So the bottom line is that reading to disbelieve leads to unsatisfactory results.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I believe it is a tribute to God's non-existance that he doesn't listen, and doesn't answer prayers. Those from privileged backgrounds unfamiliar with war, abuse, starvation - the privileged pretend *god* is taking care of it so they need not worry I suppose.
I believe you must be confused. non-existing God can't have a tribute. I suppose maybe a nihilist might think so but that type of thinking is perverted if you ask me.
 

idea

Question Everything
I believe you must be confused. non-existing God can't have a tribute. I suppose maybe a nihilist might think so but that type of thinking is perverted if you ask me.

What is your explanation for prayers that go unanswered?
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Part of it is the authenticity of the gospels from the first century and being from witnesses, John being a disciple of Jesus, Matthew being a disciple of Jesus, Luke having obtained information from witnesses and Mark having received information from Peter.
All of them are saying it was told to them by someone else, along with endless more internal and external evidence. YOu are again completely ignoring evidence in favor of beliefs being true. You do not care about what is actually true.

"

The specific wording of the Gospel titles also suggests that the portion bearing their names was a later addition. The κατα (“according to”) preposition supplements the word ευαγγελιον (“gospel”). This word for “gospel” was implicitly connected with Jesus, meaning that the full title was το ευαγγελιον Ιησου Χριστου (“The Gospel of Jesus Christ”), with the additional preposition κατα (“according to”) used to distinguish specific gospels by their individual names. Before there were multiple gospels written, however, this addition would have been unnecessary. In fact, many scholars argue that the opening line of the Gospel of Mark (1:1) probably functioned as the original title of the text:


The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ…


This original title of Mark can be compared with those of other ancient texts in which the opening lines served as titles. Herodotus’ Histories (1.1), for example, begins with the following line which probably served as the title of the text:


This is the exposition of the history of Herodotus…


A major difference between the Gospel of Mark and Herodotus’ Histories, however, is that opening line of Mark does not name the text’s author, but instead attributes the gospel to Jesus Christ. This title became insufficient, however, when there were multiple “gospels of Jesus” in circulation, and so, the additional κατα (“according to”) formula was used to distinguish specific gospels by their individual names. This circumstance, however, suggests that the names themselves were a later addition, as there would have been no need for such a distinction before multiple gospels were in circulation.


So, in addition to the problem that the Gospel titles do not even explicitly claim authors, we likewise have strong reason to suspect that these named titles were not even affixed to the first manuscript copies. This absence is important, since (as will be discussed under the “External Evidence” section below) the first church fathers who alluded to or quoted passages from the Gospels, for nearly a century after their composition, did so anonymously. Since these sources do not refer to the Gospels by their traditional names, this adds further evidence that the titles bearing those names were not added until a later period (probably in the latter half of the 2nd century CE), after these church fathers were writing.[5] And, if the manuscript titles were added later, and the Gospels themselves were quoted without names, this means that there is no evidence that the Gospels were referred to by their traditional names during the earliest period of their circulation. Instead, the Gospels would have more likely circulated anonymously."
PhD Matthew Ferguson
Internal evidence from the New Testament puts the writing of the gospels before 70 AD except for John who lived a long time and was known by some early church fathers and his gospel comes from after 70AD.
No historian agrees with early dating. Only apologists who do not care about evidence that contridicts their beliefs.
I have pages and pages on internal evidence and gospel dating.

You are going by an assumption of a prophecy from an author who writes his main character 20/22 on the R-R mythotype scale, uses OT narratives, often verbatim, the Epistles, uses only mythic literary devices, no historical style, he couldn't admit to be writing fiction any clearer. Yet you still want to say assuming the supernatural is literal is absurd. There is no evidence. You do not care about truth.





"Demonstrated" ? How? I guess it's the usual way these "demonstrations" go. Someone thinks they see similarities between Mark and other writings and so Mark has been demonstrated to be a myth.
Writes in parables
uses ring structure,
uses chaismus,
uses Markan sandwiches
Jesus scores almost perfect score on Rank-Ragalin mythotype scale,
copies OT narratives
very similar to other fiction,
uses Hellenistic dying/rising savior demigods
uses the Epistles to craft Earthly narratives

thinks they see similarities?????

Book of Psalms in the Old Testament (OT):
Mark 15.24: “They part his garments among them, casting lots upon them.”
Psalm 22:18: “They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon them.”
Mark 15.29-31: “And those who passed by blasphemed him, shaking their heads and saying, ‘…Save yourself…’ and mocked him, saying ‘He who saved others cannot save himself!’ ”
Psalm 22.7-8: “All those who see me mock me and give me lip, shaking their head, saying ‘He expected the lord to protect him, so let the lord save him if he likes.’ ”
Mark 15.34: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
Psalm 22.1: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
On top of these links, Mark also appears to have used Psalm 69, Amos 8.9, and some elements of Isaiah 53, Zechariah 9-14, and Wisdom 2 as sources for his narratives. So we can see yet a few more elements of myth in the latter part of this Gospel, with Mark using other scriptural sources as needed for his story, whether to “fulfill” what he believed to be prophecy or for some other reason.
Earlier in Mark (chapter 5), we hear about another obviously fictional story about Jesus resurrecting a girl (the daughter of a man named Jairus) from the dead, this miracle serving as another obvious marker of myth, but adding to that implausibility is the fact that the tale is actually a rewrite of another mythical story, told of Elisha in 2 Kings 4.17-37 as found in the OT, and also the fact that there are a number of very improbable coincidences found within the story itself. In the story with Elisha, we hear of a woman from Shunem who seeks out the miracle-working Elisha, finds him, falls to his feet and begs him to help her son who had recently fallen gravely ill. Someone checks on her son and confirms that he is now dead, but Elisha doesn’t fret about this, and he goes into her house, works his miraculous magic, and raises him from the dead. In Mark’s version of the story (Mark 5.22-43), the same things occur. We hear about Jairus coming to look for Jesus, finds him, falls to his feet and begs him to help him with his daughter. Someone then comes to confirm that she is now dead, but Jesus (as Elisha) doesn’t fret, and he goes into his house, works his miraculous magic, and raises her from the dead.



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joelr

Well-Known Member
I don't know who Michael Jones is but from what I heard on the video it is pretty obvious that the plagiarising of Genesis suggested as having happened in the Exile in Babylon was not innocent in nature and was an attempt to trick the Israelites about their ancestry and history, to lie to them to try to give them a reason to by united.
The characterisations that Jones gives are sarcastic but would have had to be close to what is being suggested to have happened in Exile in Babylon.
It is interesting that in the video they see intertextuality between Isaiah and other books of the Bible when compared to Canaanite texts probably in use at the time.
This is seen as Yahweh having inherited the enemies of Baal when in fact the ideas would be in the culture of Israel because of the Israelites going after the gods of Canaan, the Baals for example and God would be telling the Israelites a message using the language and understanding of the times and making the point that it is Yahweh the true God who can defeat these enemies of the Baals.
IOWs the whole thing fits in with the Bible when the Bible is read without seeing any intertextuality, but as just the true story of Israel and God trying to win them back to follow Him again instead of the Baals.
The whole thing about the OT being gleaned somehow from the surrounding cultures is a presupposition by people who see no religions as true but as having developed that way, and the Bible is read with that in mind.
So Yahweh was a Baal god with a wife Ashterah instead of the real story that Yahweh was the God of Israel and the Israelites started believing in the Baals also and worshipping them the way the Canaanites did. The story is all there in the OT and modern scholarship (skeptical scholarship with skeptical assumptions) ignores the Bible story and makes up their own version of what really happened. ;)
You didn't address anything in the video. Genesis is clearly written as a response to Mesopotamian myths. Yahweh is a typical Near Easter Deity, same as 1000s of years prior.
ONE of the examples of intertextualitywas the leviathan, at 39:26

Ashera has been found in Israelite temples many times. There is little doubt that Yahweh was paired up with a major Goddess in ancient Israelite Temples.


Did God Have a Wife?: Archaeology and Folk Religion in Ancient Israel


Dever


21:00 Israel, Dan, Bamah at Dan (mentioned in Kings), associated with Canaanite rituals

Next to building is building similar to temple at Jerusalem, altar, animal sacrifice, shovels


This temple would not be allowed in Biblical terms.

25:25, Dan, scepter, temple precinct, priestly rites, full temple, Bible opposed to this practice.


Female figurines at Dan site.


26:30 Taanach site, cult stand with deities, female deity, terracotta figurine, thousands, every household likely had one. Dever believes these represent goddess,

29:44 they represent a goddess, most scholars agree


31:00 arrowheads found near Jerusalem and Bethlehem at el-Khadr. “The servant of the lion lady”, symbol of goddess in Canaanite religion.


31:55 - Tell el-Farah 1st capitol of the northern king - goddess figurines

Model temple, doorway features palm trees (recognized by scholars) and crescent moon associated with gods/goddess.

Italian Naos - temple model with palm trees on door, male/female gods in temple

Naos from Transjordan, temples with palm trees, lions

Sulcis - temple design, doorway imagery, goddess in door

Cypris temple design - goddess in door, goddess with big wig, many examples in Egypt
37:50
Arad Temple, in Israel, fits biblical description of temple. Lion figure in temple


Temple at Arad should not exist.
Standing stones, one shorter, appears to be pair of deities.

46:25
Kuntillit Ajrud shrine. Inscription, 8th century . Bowl in Hebrew “blessed be he by Yahweh” Israelite bowl.

Fertility Canaanite art in shrine, on bowls

Drawing of Egyptian god Yes and female deity

51:40 drawing of male deity on chair, Ugarit drawings of goddesses on chair

Israelite drawing is similar to these drawings.

Inscription says “…be blessed by Yahweh and his Ashera”.

CEmetary at Khirbet el Qom, inscription reads “blessed by Yahweh and his Ashera”

Figurines from Jerusalem, female, possibly fertility figures

Examples in other cultures of similar figures.


1:03:00 female figures on lion from different culture


1:04:15 female figurines from Jerusalem
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
There are links to sources all the way through the article, I suppose Ehrman was added as a source because they could not get a link to what was used of his work.
Both Bailey and Jones are highly educated scholars.
It is true that we don't know for sure who wrote the gospels, as has been shown in the articles there is plenty of evidence that the early church did know.

No there is not. There is no article by an actual expert and no consensus on any evidence. I don't care is a scholar is highly educated, are they experts in the field? If one studies apologetics and theology you do not study historical works or are trained to know how to do it at the highest level.
Yes many scholars believe the gospels were written after 70AD because of the temple prophecy and so then they hunt around for a place and time after that which fit what they see as the general attitude of the each gospel. (is that what you call internal evidence?)
You mock real evidence and propose a supernatural explanation, meanwhile Mark is clearly writing a myth and somehow you expect this to be taken as a real super-power?

The Gospel of Mark is anonymous.[12] Its composition is usually dated through the eschatological discourse in Mark 13: most scholars interpret this as pointing to the First Jewish–Roman War (66–74 AD) that would lead to the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 AD, with the composition of Mark taking place either immediately after the destruction (the majority position) or during the years immediately prior.[1
In the 19th century it became widely accepted that Mark was the earliest of the gospels; it was assumed that it was therefore the most reliable source for the historical Jesus, but since about 1950 there has been a growing consensus that the primary purpose of the author of Mark was to announce a message rather than to report history.[25] The idea that the gospel could be used to reconstruct the historical Jesus suffered two severe blows in the early part of the 20th century, first when William Wrede argued strongly that the "Messianic secret" motif in Mark was a creation of the early church rather than a reflection of the historical Jesus, and in 1919 when Karl Ludwig Schmidt further undermined its historicity with his contention that the links between episodes are the invention of the writer, meaning that it cannot be taken as a reliable guide to the chronology of Jesus' mission: both claims are widely accepted today.[2
The gospels are not meant to be in the historical genre true.
`They are fiction
Really? Because "we" is in the opening of 1John 1 they consider the "we" to be part of a Johanine community of teachers?
To me the opening points to someone who was close to Jesus and the "we" are the others disciples of Jesus who knew Him and carried the gospel around.

1John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4 We write this to make our[a] joy complete.

John is the only gospel to claim an eyewitness source, and yet the author does not even name this mysterious figure, but simply refers to him as “the disciple whom Jesus loved.” This is hardly eyewitness testimony, and it is probably the case that the author(s) of John invented this figure. One possibility is that the anonymous beloved disciple is a character already identified within the text. Verbal parallels suggest that the anonymous disciple may be Lazarus from John 11 (verses 1; 3; 5; 11; 36), whom Jesus raises from the dead in the passage.[30] This Lazarus is likely based on the retelling of a story about an allegorical Lazarus in Luke 16:20-31. In the parable, Lazarus is a beggar who was fed by a wealthy man who dies and goes to Heaven, but the rich man dies and goes to Hell. The rich man begs Abraham in Heaven to send Lazarus to warn his family, since, if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent. In Luke, Abraham refuses to send Lazarus from the dead, arguing that people should study the Torah and the Prophets to believe and will not be convinced even if someone from the dead visits them. In the Gospel of John, however, in which Jesus is more prone to demonstrate his powers through signs and miracles, rather than by appeals to Old Testament verses like in the Synoptic Gospels, the author instead has Jesus raise Lazarus from the dead, so that people might believe in him. The author of John thus very likely is redacting a previous story based on an allegorical character.


Regardless, even if the anonymous beloved disciple is not based on Lazarus[31], the Gospel of John is still extremely ambiguous about this character’s identity. The text even refuses to name him at key moments, such as the discovery of the empty tomb (20:1-9), where other characters such as Mary Magdalene and Peter are named, and yet this character is deliberately kept anonymous. The traditional identification of the disciple with John the son of Zebedee is undermined, among many other reasons, by the internal evidence of this beloved disciple’s connection with the high priest of Jerusalem (18:15-16), which could hardly be expected of an illiterate fisherman from backwater Galilee. The Gospel of John likewise shows signs of originally ending at John 20:30-31, and chapter 21, which claims the anonymous disciple as a witness, is very likely an addition from a later author. The chapter (21:24) distinguishes between the disciple who is testifying and the authors (plural) who know that it is true, suggesting that (even in this secondary material) the anonymous disciple is not to be understood as the author of the final version of the text.[32] Furthermore, the final composition of John is dated to approximately 90-120 CE, which is largely beyond the lifetimes of an adult eyewitnesses of Jesus.[33] In order to compensate for this problematic chronology, the author even had to invent the detail that this supposed eyewitness would live an abnormally long life (21:23) to account for the time gap. This detail is further explained if the anonymous disciple is based on Lazarus, who was already raised from the dead and has conquered death. Ultimately, all of these factors suggest that the unidentified “witness” is most likely an authorial invention (probably of a second author) used to gain proximal credibility for the otherwise latest of the four canonical Gospels.[34]


Given all of the problems with the traditional authorship of John, even Christian scholar Raymond Brown (An Introduction to the New Testament, pp. 368-369) explains: “As with the other Gospels it is doubted by most scholars that this Gospel was written by an eyewitness of the public ministry of Jesus.”

Really? The gospels are recognised as not historical genre and then there is a problem with how the names are attached to the gospels?
There is agreement that the authors are not definitely known but there is also agreement among conservative scholars that there is plenty of evidence for the authors that are named.
You don't seem to have much evidence imo. that the authorship is completely unknown and cannot be the authors we have.
That there is plenty of evidence for the authors we have should be admitted by all scholars imo. I doubt that it is.
The evidence for names added late is vast and includes the Gospels being mentioned by Martyr and he did not know the names.
It was not until close to 2 AD that
Irenaeus’ first began using their current names.

 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Yes that is admitted by most scholars.
That article I posted did say that all the manuscripts we have do have names attached even if the names vary in the form that is used. BUT the names are consistent. The right name is with the right gospel in all the manuscripts and so it was not just a matter of different people making up names to attach, it was most likely the names that were known by the church to be the actual authors.
That is not what the evidence suggests at all.


"Ignatius (c. 105-115 CE) appears to quote phrases from Matthew (see here), and to allude to the star over Bethlehem (Matthew 2:1-12) in his Letter to the Ephesians (19:2); however, Ignatius does not attribute any of this material to the disciple Matthew nor does he refer to a “Gospel according to Matthew.” Polycarp (c. 110-140 CE) likewise appears to quote multiple phrases and verses from Matthew, Mark, and Luke (see here), and yet he neither attributes any of this material to their traditional authors nor refers to their traditional titles. There is scholarly dispute, however, as to whether Ignatius and Polycarp are quoting written texts, or instead interacting with oral traditions. As such, it is uncertain whether these two authors are directly referencing the Gospels that we possess today.


A stronger case can be made that the Epistle of Barnabas (80-120 CE) quotes Matthew (22:14), particularly because the epistle says “it is written” (4:14), when referring to the verse “many are invited, but few are chosen”; and yet, the Epistle of Barnabas does not attribute this verse to a text written by the disciple Matthew. What is further worth noting is that the Epistle of Barnabas (4:3) also refers to the Book of Enoch, and states “as Enoch saith,” showing that the epistle refers to traditional authorship elsewhere, when it was known.


Even more important, however, is when the Didache (c. 50-120 CE) directly quotes the Lord’s prayer (8:3-11), which is written in Matthew 6:9-13. This quotation is important, because the Didache attributes these verses to “His (Jesus’) Gospel” (ο κυριος εν τω ευαγγελιω αυτου) without referring to a “Gospel according to Matthew.” What the Didache is probably referring to, therefore, is the original title of the Gospels, before they were attributed to their traditional names. As discussed under the “Internal Evidence” section above, the Gospels were most likely originally referred to under the title το ευαγγελιον Ιησου Χριστου (“The Gospel of Jesus Christ”); however, when later there were multiple gospels in circulation, the construction κατα (“according to”) was added, in order to distinguish individual gospels by their designated names. The Didache likely preserves, therefore, a trace of their original titles, which were anonymous.


Justin Martyr (c. 150-160 CE) later makes explicit references and quotations of the Gospels (see here), but ascribes them under the collective title of “Memoirs of the Apostles,” without making any explicit mention of their traditional names. Finally, Irenaeus (c. 175-185 CE) refers to the Gospels by their traditional names in the late-2nd century (see here). As such, there is a clear development in which the Gospels were first referred to anonymously by external sources, and only later associated with their traditional attributions. For this reason, Ehrman (Forged, p. 225) concludes:


It was about a century after the Gospels had been originally put in circulation that they were definitively named Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. This comes, for the first time, in the writings of the church father and heresiologist Irenaeus [Against Heresies 3.1.1], around 180-85 CE.


So, it is not until some century after the Gospels’ original composition, around the time of the church father Irenaeus, that they were even given their traditional authorial attributions.[20] Incidentally, Irenaeus wanted there to be specifically “four gospels” because there are “four winds” and “four corners” of the Earth (Against Heresies 3.11.8). This was the kind of logic by which the Gospels were later attributed…


Ehrman (Forged, p. 226) goes on to explain:


Why were these names chosen by the end of the second century? For some decades there had been rumors floating around that two important figures of the early church had written accounts of Jesus’ teachings and activities. We find these rumors already in the writings of the church father Papias [now lost, but still partially preserved by Eusebius in Historia Ecclesiastica 3.39.14-17], around 120-30 CE, nearly half a century before Irenaeus. Papias claimed, on the basis of good authority, that the disciple Matthew had written down the saying of Jesus in the Hebrew language and the others had provided translations of them, presumably into Greek. He also said that Peter’s companion Mark had rearranged the preaching of Peter about Jesus … and created a book out of it.


So, we do have references to works written by Matthew and Mark, which date prior to Irenaeus, in the writings of the church father Papias. Unlike the sources mentioned above, however, Papias does make allusions to or quote any passages from these texts, so that it is unclear whether he is referring to the texts that we know today as the Gospel of Matthew and the Gospel of Mark. Papias’ own writings are likewise no longer extant, and so his reference to these works is only preserved in the later writings of the 4th century church father Eusebius. Incidentally, Eusebius (Historia Ecclesiastica 3.39.13) elsewhere describes Papias as a man who “seems to have been of very small intelligence, to judge from his writings.” Likewise, another fragment of Papias tells a story about how Judas, after betraying Jesus, became wider than a chariot and so fat that he exploded


Here is what Eusebius (Historia Ecclesiastica 3.39.15) preserves regarding Papias’ claim that Mark, an attendant of Peter, had written an account about Jesus:


Now, the presbyter would say this: “Mark, having become the interpreter of Peter, accurately wrote down as much as he could remember, though not in order, about the things either said or done by the Lord. For he had neither heard nor followed the Lord, but only Peter after him who, as I said previously, would fashion his teachings according to the occasion, but not by making a rhetorical arrangement [ου μεντοι ταξει] of the Lord’s reports, so that Mark did not error by thus writing down certain things as he recalled. For he had one intention: neither to omit any of the things which he heard nor to falsify them.”


Regarding the account written by Matthew, Eusebius (Historia Ecclesiastica 3.39.16) records Papias as stating:


These things are recorded in Papias about Mark, but concerning Matthew this is said: “Matthew organized the reports in the Hebrew language, and interpreted each of them as much as he was able.”


Since Irenaeus clearly knew Papias’ works (Against Heresies 5.33.4), he probably drew the connection between these texts and the gospels Matthew and Mark from his testimony.[21] However, a major problem with this tradition, noted above, is that Papias never quotes from the works that he attributes to these authors, and he could very well not be referring to the texts that were later called Matthew and Mark. This is especially true for Matthew, which Papias claims was written in Hebrew/Aramaic, even though the Gospel of Matthew that we possess today is a Greek text. But for Mark as well, Papias’ statement that the gospel “lacked rhetorical arrangement” (ου μεντοι ταξει) does not mesh very well with the internal evidence the text itself, which is actually pretty sophisticated in its plot and rhetorical devices.[22]


Papias himself had never met any of the apostles (Historia Ecclesiastica 3.3.2), and he was relying on a tradition reported by an unknown figure named John the Presbyter, or “elder John.” It could be the case, therefore, that this oral tradition was referring to other, unknown texts that were later conflated with Matthew and Mark. Even if Papias is correctly referring to our Gospel of Mark, however, there are still problems with this attribution. As New Testament scholar Michael Kok, who argues that Papias is referring to the text that is known as Mark today, explains about Papias’ source (The Gospel on the Margins, p. 105):






 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Mark probably had no personal involvement in most of what he wrote about.
Matthew is said to have written his gospel in Hebrew characters and it was meant to have been translated to Greek. Matthew may not have used the first person in his writings and a later translator may have even taken them out if he had used the first person.

Mark wrote fiction using the OT, Epistles and other sources. Provide scholarship that Matthew was written in Hebrew.
Yes Luke was probably not a follower of Jesus at all, and seems to make that plain in the opening to his gospel.
But who make such a big deal about the first person personal pronouns in the gospel and then want to deny that the "we" pronouns used in Acts mean that Luke was referring to himself. What sort of confused or biased thinking is that?
I cannot find his follow up in the External Evidence section on William Campbell


Yes John was unschooled but not necessarily illiterate and the end of the gospel of John does indicate that others may have written for John, just as Mark is said to have written for Peter.
Actually the literacy in ancient Israel I hear was pretty good compared to the rest of the ancient world, with some teaching happening in the synagogues.
Jesus, a carpenter, is said to have got up in the synagogue to read from the Torah.
The Levites were no doubt more literate because of their duty to teach the law etc. Matthew was also called Levi and so could well have been a Levite and so was probably literate. John/illiterate

Furthermore, as Ehrman (Forged, p. 73) explains:


Most people outside of the urban areas would scarcely ever even see a written text. Some smaller towns and villages may have had a literacy level around 1 percent. Moreover, these literate people were almost always the elite of the upper class. Those who learned to read learned how to read Hebrew (not Greek).


Likewise, we have archaeological evidence which suggests that Peter, who is described alongside John as αγραμματος (“illiterate”) in Acts 4:13, was in fact illiterate based on excavations of his hometown in Capernaum. As Ehrman (Forged, pp. 74-75) explains:


In order to evaluate Peter’s linguistic abilities, the place to begin, then, is with Capernaum … The archaeological digs have revealed … there are no inscriptions of any kind on any of the buildings … Reed [Archaeology and the Galilean Jesus, pp. 140-169] concludes that the inhabitants were almost certainly ‘predominantly illiterate’ [even in Aramaic] … In short, Peter’s town was a backwoods Jewish village made up of hand-to-mouth laborers who did not have an education. Everyone spoke Aramaic. Nothing suggests that anyone could speak Greek. Nothing suggests that anyone in the town could write. As a lower-class fisherman, Peter would have started work as a young boy and never attended school. There was, in fact, probably no school there.


Bear in mind that John is described as αγραμματος (“illiterate”) alongside Peter in the passage, for whom we have very strong archaeological evidence that he was probably illiterate. Furthermore, both James and John the sons of Zebedee are likewise described as living around Capernaum. The best interpretation of the passage is thus that Acts 4:13 is describing Peter and John as both lacking Rabbinic training and being illiterate.


[11] New Testament scholar Jonathan Bernier has critiqued literacy as a criterion for determining the authorship of ancient texts in his blog post “Flipping Coins and Writing Gospels” (notably, Bernier does not defend the traditional authors of the Gospels in the post, but only calls into question whether illiteracy is good argument for doubting their traditional authors). His criticism is based on the statistical fact that, even if a certain group of people, such as Galilean fisherman, is 99% illiterate, this circumstance should not lead to the deduction that a particular Galilean fisherman, such as John, could not have authored a Greek scripture. As Bernier argues:


[T]he nature of statistics is such that even if 99% of all Galilean fishermen were persons who could not have written something like the Gospel of John it does not follow that there is a 99% chance that John, son of Zebedee, would be such a person. It’s an example of the coin flip problem: just because you flip a coin ten times and eight times it comes up heads it does not follow that the eleventh coin has a 80% chance of coming up heads; it in fact has a 50% chance; and even if that were not the case 80% is not 100%.


First off, a coin flip is a false analogy. It would only hold if 50% of fishermen were literary experts. If 99% of people of John’s status could not author a gospel, then the prior probability he could do it is indeed 1%. Bernier would need a die that only comes up “bingo” one out of a hundred times, which then in a sequence of rolls comes up “bingo” a different-than-that number of times. Then he would have a correct analogy.


However, this also misinterprets the logic behind how literacy is used as a criterion in determining authorship. The argument is not that it is 99% unlikely the John could have authored a Greek scripture, simply because 99% of the group to which he belonged would have been incapable of such authorship (assuming the number is not even higher). That would be to mistake prior probability with posterior probability. Rather, the argument is about first assessing the demographics of people to which the attributed author of a text belongs, to see if this is an ordinary or remarkable attribution.


Virtually 100% of Roman senators in the early-2nd century CE were literate in Latin. Likewise, Latin historiography was a genre that was primarily written by Roman senators. As Classicist Ronald Mellor (The Roman Historians, p. 4) explains, “History at Rome was written mostly by senators for senators.” So, when an authorial attribution is made to Tacitus, a Roman senator, for writing Latin historical works, such as his Annals and Histories, this is an ordinary attribution.


In the case of rural Galilee, Judaic Studies scholar Meir Bar-Ilan (“Illiteracy in the Land of Israel in the First Centuries CE“) finds that only about 3% of the population was literate, and most of these would have lived in cities or large towns (not typical of where the disciples of rural Galilee were from). Moreover, these people would primarily be taught to read Aramaic and Hebrew, so that even fewer could read or write in Greek. Once you drop the wealthy, urban population out of the equation, the number of poor, rural people who were literate in Aramaic would be much smaller than 3%. Out of this reduced fraction, even fewer could read and write in Greek. The ability to write complex Greek, such as in prose scripture, would have likewise been even rarer.


So, when a claim is made that a Galilean fisherman, like John, and a toll booth collector, like Matthew, authored complex Greek scriptures, it would have certainly been unusual and rare for someone who belonged to their demographics to have authored such texts. This already means that the authorial traditions of Matthew and John are, at the very least, more unusual than the authorship of Tacitus. It would not be unusual or rare for a Roman senator, like Tacitus, to have authored a Latin history, whereas in the case of Matthew and John, these would have been very rare and exceptional individuals to author complex Greek prose, given the demographics to which they belonged.


This does not mean that it would be impossible for Matthew and John to have been able to author complex Greek prose, but the next step is to see if there is any evidence that they were exceptional. Here, there are direct contradictions in our sources for their lives. John (Acts 4:13) is explicitly stated to be illiterate, and Matthew (Matthew 9:10-13) is explicitly stated to have been ostracized from the Jewish community (despite the fact that the gospel attributed him shows the most knowledge of Jewish Law and includes the most allusions to Jewish scriptures out of the New Testament Gospels). So, all of the data that we have for these individuals suggests that they were not exceptional in terms of their literary abilities and education.


The criterion of literacy can vary by degree. Our degree of confidence that Tacitus could author a Latin history is much higher than that a rural fisherman and toll booth collector could have authored Greek scriptures. So, the authorship of Tacitus is far more secure in this respect, even if it is not inconceivable that Matthew and John may have had remarkable literary abilities for their demographics. The same is true of other Classical authors, such as Livy and Plutarch, who belonged to more literate demographics, which is why it is not a good argument for apologists to equate the authorial attributions of the Gospels with these Pagan texts. Such Pagan texts are ordinary attributions, whereas the attributions of the Gospels are highly unusual.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
As I said, Matthew is said to have written in Hebrew or Aramaic and was translated to Greek later according to the church history of those times. And as I said, Matthew (Levi) was probably a Levite with knowledge of the scriptures and the religion and who was not always a tax collector so gained his knowledge earlier in life.
These things are common knowledge but when people want to ignore the history of the times, just brush it off as church tradition that was probably made up, they end up making up some silly stuff to replace it with.

Source a PhD historian, the experts on what language each gospel was written in saying this.
Who cares about Tacitus anyway.
Why Scholars Doubt the Traditional Authors of the Gospels » Internet Infidels


You might see that as a problem, but I don't. It does not show Matthew was not there at all imo
The percentages vary from 90% to 50% having been taken from Mark it seems in opinions I have seen and it is not known if Matthew of Mark was written first.



Why say "borrowing from a non eye witness" if the eyewitness in Mark's case is Peter? (and of course there are many things that Peter, James and John were privy to which the other disciples were not).




Here we go again making Blomberg a speculation when it is based on the church history of the time. And then condemning speculation when all this author has is speculation. Incredible.



Matthew is said to have written for Jews and uses phrases more acceptable to the Jews of the time. But the Messiah was the Son of David and the common uneducated people who were shouting Hosanna, could well have said (our father David).
I wonder what could have been changed by the translators of Matthew's gospel into Greek.

Source a PhD historian who makes this claim. Apologist conspiracy theories are equal to Roswell conspiracy tyheories. You do not care about what is true.
As I said, Matthew was writing for the Jews and used terms more acceptable to them. So he used Kingdom of heaven instead of Kingdom of God etc.
Source a PhD saying this term was more popular by Jewish writers in this time.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
You might see that as a problem, but I don't. It does not show Matthew was not there at all imo
The percentages vary from 90% to 50% having been taken from Mark it seems in opinions I have seen and it is not known if Matthew of Mark was written first.
Robert H. Stein’s The Synoptic Problem: An Introduction1 summarizes well the issues involved in the synoptic problem—as well as its probable solution. For the most part, our discussion will follow his outline.2

A. The Literary Interdependence of the Synoptic Gospels​

It is quite impossible to hold that the three synoptic gospels were completely independent from each other. In the least, they had to have shared a common oral tradition. But the vast bulk of NT scholars today would argue for much more than that.3 There are four crucial arguments which virtually prove literary interdependence.

1. AGREEMENT IN WORDING​

2. AGREEMENT IN ORDER​

3. AGREEMENT IN PARENTHETICAL MATERIAL​

4. LUKE’S PREFACE​

5. CONCLUSION​

Stein has summarized ably what one should conclude from these four areas of investigation:

We shall see later that before the Gospels were written there did exist a period in which the gospel materials were passed on orally, and it is clear that this oral tradition influenced not only the first of our synoptic Gospels but the subsequent ones as well. As an explanation for the general agreement between Matthew-Mark-Luke, however, such an explanation is quite inadequate. There are several reasons for this. For one the exactness of the wording between the synoptic Gospels is better explained by the use of written sources than oral ones. Second, the parenthetical comments that these Gospels have in common are hardly explainable by means of oral tradition. This is especially true of Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14, which addresses the readers of these works! Third and most important, the extensive agreement in the memorization of the gospel traditions by both missionary preachers and laypeople is conceded by all, it is most doubtful that this involved the memorization of a whole gospel account in a specific order. Memorizing individual pericopes, parables, and sayings, and even small collections of such material, is one thing, but memorizing a whole Gospel of such material is something else. The large extensive agreement in order between the synoptic Gospels is best explained by the use of a common literary source. Finally, as has already been pointed out, whereas Luke 1:2 does refer to an oral period in which the gospel materials were transmitted, Luke explicitly mentions his own investigation of written sources.6

B. The Priority of Mark​

There are three types of theories which have arisen to explain the literary relationships among the synoptic gospels. First, Schleiermacher in 1817 held that the apostles had written down brief memorabilia which were later collected and arranged according to their particular type of genre. The problem with this view is that it fails to explain the overall arrangement of the synoptic gospels.
Second, G. E. Lessing (1776) and J. G. Eichhorn (1796) argued for an Ur-Gospel, written in Aramaic, which ultimately stood behind the synoptic gospels. The various synoptic writers then used different revisions/ translations of this Ur-Gospel. The main problem with this theory is that it looks no different than an Ur-Mark which, in turn, looks no different than Mark. Thus, rather than postulating any kind of Ur-Gospel, a simpler theory which accounted for the data just as well was that Mark stood behind Luke and Matthew.

Third, the theory of interdependence (sometimes known as utilization) has been suggested. In other words, one or more synoptic gospel used one or more synoptic gospel. Altogether there are eighteen possible permutations of this theory,7 though three have presented themselves as the most plausible: (1) the Augustinian hypothesis: Matthew wrote first and was utilized by Mark whose gospel was used by Luke; (2) the Griesbach hypothesis (suggested by J. J. Griesbach in 1776): Matthew wrote first and was used by Luke, both of whom were used by Mark; and (3) the Holtzmann/Streeter hypothesis (suggested by H. J. Holtzmann in 1863, and refined [and complicated!] by B. H. Streeter in 1924): Mark wrote first and was used independently by Matthew and Luke.8

The majority of NT scholars hold to Markan priority (either the two-source hypothesis of Holtzmann or the four-source hypothesis of Streeter). This is the view adopted in this paper as well.9 Stein puts forth eight categories of reasons why Mark ought to be considered the first gospel. Though not all of his arguments are of equal weight, both the cumulative evidence and several specific arguments are quite persuasive.

1. MARK’S SHORTNESS: THE ARGUMENT FROM LENGTH​

When one compares the synoptic parallels, some startling results are noticed. Of Mark’s 11,025 words, only 132 have no parallel in either Matthew or Luke. Percentage-wise, 97% of Mark’s Gospel is duplicated in Matthew; and 88% is found in Luke. On the other hand, less than 60% of Matthew is duplicated in Mark, and only 47% of Luke is found in Mark.10

What is to account for the almost total absorption of Mark into Matthew and Luke? The Griesbach hypothesis11 suggests that Mark was the last gospel written and that the author used Matthew and Luke. But if so, why did he omit so much material? What Mark omits from his gospel cannot be considered insignificant: the birth of Jesus, the birth of John the Baptist, the Sermon on the Mount, the Lord’s Prayer, the resurrection appearances by Jesus,12 much teaching material, etc. Further, he has abbreviated accounts of the Lord’s temptation and baptism. There are two reasons13 usually given as to why Mark would omit so much material: (1) Mark wanted to provide an abridged gospel for use in the churches; (2) Mark only wanted to record material that was found in both Matthew and Luke, perhaps on the analogy of Deut 17:6-7/19:15 (the voice of at least two witnesses confirmed a truth). Both of these reasons seem inadequate however, for the following reasons............and so on. Mark is first and the source. Goodacre added to the debate conclusively.


 

joelr

Well-Known Member
I also can look at maps and note that this description of the way Jesus went makes perfect sense. It is not saying that the destination was Galilee or the Decapolis (which is where it says he went after Galilee), all it is saying is the journey Jesus made and where he ended up. These authors you use say some ridiculous things.
Why Scholars Doubt the Traditional Authors of the Gospels » Internet Infidels
You have maps of Israel from 30 AD? Do you have any arguments that hold or even raise any fair points at all? Or is it all apologetic fantasy?
You believe you know more than the prolific Christian author Hugh Anderson who wrote the New Century Bible Gospel of Mark?????
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
The continuation of the OT anonymous authorship might be a reason for anonymity. It does not mean that the early Church did not know who wrote them however and it does not mean that the skeptic presumption of no true prophecies and so written after 70AD is true either.

There is no evidence of anything supernatural. There is evidence of borrowed mythology. And massive external and internal evidence on names.
You would NEVER date the Quran on a prophecy. NEVER date a Hindu, Greek or any other based on one prophecy from a demigod who has zero proof of ever being real. Also the same author copied OT narratives verbatim, changed Pauls letters to eartyhly stories and used all fictive language. Yes, it's a myth and should be assumed it is.
Ehrman is extreme in his views about the authorship of the various books and epistles as far as I know. He is recognized as a good scholar but much of his opinions are disputed.

Show me one opinion disputed by a historian. Apologists and theologians are butthurt all day at historians because history demonstrates the religion is the same as Islam, Mormonism, JW, Hinduism and Scientology. Theologians are not historical scholars.

Ehrmans conclusions on the gospels being a myth are shared by all his peers.
1) Acts 9:26 says 26 When he came to Jerusalem, he tried to join the disciples, but they were all afraid of him, not believing that he really was a disciple. 27 But Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles.

It does not say how long it was before he came to Jerusalem (could have been years) and does not say how many apostles he spoke to (could have been only 2). Also "did not consult any human of flesh and blood" is referring to not consulting people about what the gospel was,,,,,,,,,,, iow it does not mean that he did not speak to people or even speak to Christians.

2)Considering Acts 16:1-3 and Gal 2:1-3,7. It is interesting that there is no evidence of pre Mishnaic Jews believing that a child of mixed marriage followed what the mother was.
Nevertheless that does not mean Timothy was or was not considered a Jew and Paul seemed to want to have Timothy circumcised so that Timothy would come with Paul on his journeys and help preach the gospel among Jews at times and he would not have been able to do that as an uncircumcised gentile.
Paul did not force Titus to be circumcised and I suppose Titus was not working with Paul among the Jews. When Paul took Titus a Gentile to Jerusalem it was to other Christians where separate should not happen but which some Jewish Christians were still doing from gentiles (see Gal 2:11-14)
It is interesting that when Paul met Timothy, Paul was taking the message about circumcision and obeying the Law of Moses to the churches (Acts 15, Acts 16:4), so we can easily see why Paul wanted Timothy to be circumcised and it stands the test of the epistles to Timothy being to a young leader, which Paul seemed to have in mind for Timothy.

3) There are many other than Paul and the original 12 who are called apostles in the New Testament.
Acts 13:31 and Acts 1:21 do not say anything about apostles.
Acts 13:31 and for many days he was seen by those who had traveled with him from Galilee to Jerusalem. They are now his witnesses to our people.
Actually Paul did witness Jesus and it is agreed by Peter that he was to take the gospel to the gentiles.

So we see there is no discrepancy in what Luke says in Acts and what Paul says, so that way of showing that Luke was not with Paul is no good.
Luke who wrote the gospel of Luke and Acts was with Paul on his journeys and could died with Paul when Paul went to Rome at the end of Acts.
Certainly he did not record the death of Paul in Acts or what happened with Paul.
So Paul and Luke probably died in the persecution under Nero (64AD) and so the gospel of Luke and Acts were written before then, with the gospel being written first. And if Luke copied Mark, then Mark was written before Luke.

Yes, Mark was written first.
Acts is historical fiction, no historian disagrees with this. Pervo's work has clearly demonstrated Acts is fiction

The Mystery of Acts: Unraveling Its Story Paperback –​

by Richard I. Pervo

The author of Acts unwittingly committed a near-perfect crime: He told his story so well that all rival accounts vanished with but the faintest of traces. And thus future generations were left with no documents that recount the history of the early Christian tradition; because Acts is not history. According to Richard Pervo, 'Acts is a beautiful house that readers may happily admire, but it is not a home in which the historian can responsibly live.' Luke did not even aspire to write history but rather told his story to defend the gentile communities of his day as the legitimate heirs of Israelite religion. In The Mystery of Acts, Pervo explores the problem of history in Acts by asking, and answering, the fundamental questions: Who wrote Acts? Where was Acts written? When was Acts written? Why was Acts written? How was Acts written? The result is a veritable tour-de-force that enlighten, entertains, and brings Acts to life.

Pervo's thesis is simple: Acts is beautiful literature, but it is not a historically accurate or reliable book. In the conclusion of the book he states, "...Acts is not a reliable history of Christian origins. One important point is that it does not attempt to be. Another is that the literary techniques are too artistic. The use of cycles, parallels, repetitions, melodramatic characterization, stereotyped scene construction, inventing or presenting stories that replicate biblical narrative, unbalanced narrative with evident symbolic import, and a balanced structure. History cannot be so symmetrical" (Pervo, p. 151).
This is Pervo's amazing, clear, and unsullied conclusion to his long and magnificent scholarship on Acts. Pervo's conclusion is stunning because it is won by impeccable scholarship and thorough consideration of the traditional views of Luke as historian. It changes the picture of Christian beginnings, and should change the minds of New Testament scholars. --Burton Mack, Professor of Religion and Early Christianity, emeritus Claremont Graduate University

Pervo writes with verve and has a commanding knowledge of the literature on Acts, and his assessment of the theological intent of Acts is informative. --The Bible Today

Richard Pervo, who has dedicated most of his scholarly life to the study of Acts, is an international authority in this area. His new book is intended specifically to introduce the non-specialist to recent research in the field by focusing on the problems of attempting to derive history from the text; indeed, Pervo appreciates the author of Acts more as a creative catechist than as an historian. Ever the thorough expositor, Pervo takes the whole text of Acts into account and, adopting the guise of a detective searching for clues, presents his conclusions in such a lucid and enjoyable way that any intelligent reader will be both instructed and entertained. The specialist, too, will profit from the book, for it presents complicated data along with insightful observations in a simple and thus convincing way. Pervo s new volume is the best concise analysis of Acts that I know of, and that is to say nothing of its wry wit and stylistic polish. --Gerd Ludemann, Professor of New Testament at the University of Gottingen, Germany


lecture


The Book of Acts as Historical Fiction examples
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
The names were added because of earlier church tradition and writings. Here is a good article with evidence for the authorship of the gospels.
There is no tradition earlier than mid second century (Papias) and your article actually supports this.

Evidence for anonymous gospels:
- internal (the way they were written)
- external (how were the gospels referred to prior the names were added)

Here is an excellent article:

 
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Hawkins

Well-Known Member
Christians today have never met Jesus physically yet believe in Him. Why?

If you say you believe in Christ because of the Bible then how do you know the Bible is true?

How do you know Christ and the Bible are true?

What makes you so sure?

A religion serves as the mass media for a God's truth to convey. The basic functionality of a media is to examine the credibility of both the eyewitnesses and their stories before broadcasting. A reporter/journalist makes sure that his source of information is reliable and credible before the story of an eyewitness is broadcast in the name of the credibility of the media. That's the way how a truth shall convey among the mass majority of humans.

Similarly, God dedicated a 'media' which is Israel for the examination of the credibility of the stories from the OT prophets who are the eyewitnesses of God. All those stories were broadcast locally to all the Jews. That's the foundation of Judaism, before the broadcast turns to all mankind. It is more or less like the stage where a media such as CNN gather all the stories of a day as the preparation for the day's broadcast. The final round of stories are from Jesus and His chosen disciples. God's CNN which are the Jews however failed to grant credibility to their stories. Under the circumstance God has to switch His dedicated media from Judaism to Christianity, in order for His truth to be preached/broadcast to all mankind.

This is a typical process for a truth to convey among humans. Moreover, if the US government has an important message for its citizens, the only efficient way for this message to reach its citizen is by means of the media (the credible ones), it can alos dedicates certain agencies such as CNN for the general governmental messages to be annonouced. If CNN failed the job, it may switch to Fox News as its designated source of government annonouncements. Similarly, if Israel failed to do the job of broadcasting God's 'news' (i.e., preaching the gospel), God may switch to another agency which is today's Christianity.

When the US government has an important annonouncement delievered to CNN or Fox News, the media will have a scope of audience to cover, in this case the media shall cover all the states of America such that the message can reach each and every citizens. Similarly, God makes this explicit, the gospel (God's news) must be preached (broadcast) to all nations of this world.

No other religions did the same. Simply becasue the gods behind those religions are false gods.
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
The basic functionality of a media is to examine the credibility of both the eyewitnesses and their stories before broadcasting.

Religions actually skip this part.

Jesus to Thomas: "Stop doubting and believe."

No other religions did the same. Simply becasue the gods behind those religions are false gods.

All can be wrong. The biggest religion is not necessary true. This would be a fallacious argument - argumentum ad populum.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
There is no tradition earlier than mid second century (Papias) and your article actually supports this.

Evidence for anonymous gospels:
- internal (the way they were written)
- external (how were the gospels referred to prior the names were added)

Here is an excellent article:


Thanks for that.
In the article I cited Papias is said to have written early in the 2nd century. He died in 130 and some modern scholars say he wrote between 95 and 110 AD
It seems Polycarp and Papias knew John the apostle. So the knowledge and tradition goes back to the first century and the apostles.
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
Thanks for that.
In the article I cited Papias is said to have written early in the 2nd century. He died in 130 and some modern scholars say he wrote between 95 and 110 AD
It seems Polycarp and Papias knew John the apostle. So the knowledge and tradition goes back to the first century and the apostles.
Dates are not certain. Some scholars date Papias' writing in cca. 130.

Papias tells in the preface (preserved by Eusebius) to his writing that his primary sources were not the apostles but "elders" and he names two of them - "Aristion and the elder John". If Papias knew John (the apostle) personally he wouldn't write that he has the info (what was said by John and other apostles and who wrote the gospels) from the elders:

"I would inquire as to the discourses of the elders what was said /... / by John /... /".

"This also the elder [John] said: Mark having become the interpreter of Peter wrote accurately everything that he remembered of the things that were either said or done by Christ..."
 
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