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Christians- How do you know Jesus and the Bible are true?

Brian2

Veteran Member
Dates are not certain. Some scholars date Papias' writing in cca. 130.

Papias tells in the preface (preserved by Eusebius) to his writing that his primary sources were not the apostles but "elders" and he names two of them - "Aristion and the elder John". If Papias knew John (the apostle) personally he wouldn't write that he has the info (what was said by John and other apistles and who wrote the gospels) from the elders:

"I would inquire as to the discourses of the elders what was said /... / by John /... /".

"This also the elder [John] said: Mark having become the interpreter of Peter wrote accurately everything that he remembered of the things that were either said or done by Christ..."

This site: Papias of Hierapolis - Wikipedia
puts the death of Papias as 130 AD and says that some say it was in 164AD but have mistaken the death of Papylas for the death of Papias.
The work of Papias is dated by a few modern scholars to about 95–110.[7][8] Later dates were once argued from two references that now appear to be mistaken. One dating Papias' death to around the death of Polycarp in 164 is actually a mistake for Papylas.[9] Another unreliable source in which Papias is said to refer to the reign of Hadrian (117–138) seems to have resulted from confusion between Papias and Quadratus of Athens.[10]

Eusebius refers to Papias only in his third book, and thus seems to date him before the opening of his fourth book in 109. Papias himself knows several New Testament books, whose dates are themselves controversial, and was informed by John the Evangelist, Aristion, the daughters of Philip and others who had themselves heard the Twelve Apostles. He is also called a companion of the long-lived Polycarp (69–155),[4] Agapius of Hierapolis dates one of his histories to the 12th year of Trajan's rule (110 AD). For all these reasons, Papias is thought to have written around the turn of the 2nd century.

The article has other interesting things about Papias.
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
This site: Papias of Hierapolis - Wikipedia
puts the death of Papias as 130 AD and says that some say it was in 164AD but have mistaken the death of Papylas for the death of Papias.
The work of Papias is dated by a few modern scholars to about 95–110.[7][8] Later dates were once argued from two references that now appear to be mistaken. One dating Papias' death to around the death of Polycarp in 164 is actually a mistake for Papylas.[9] Another unreliable source in which Papias is said to refer to the reign of Hadrian (117–138) seems to have resulted from confusion between Papias and Quadratus of Athens.[10]

Eusebius refers to Papias only in his third book, and thus seems to date him before the opening of his fourth book in 109. Papias himself knows several New Testament books, whose dates are themselves controversial, and was informed by John the Evangelist, Aristion, the daughters of Philip and others who had themselves heard the Twelve Apostles. He is also called a companion of the long-lived Polycarp (69–155),[4] Agapius of Hierapolis dates one of his histories to the 12th year of Trajan's rule (110 AD). For all these reasons, Papias is thought to have written around the turn of the 2nd century.

The article has other interesting things about Papias.
From the same article:

Papias, then, inquired of travelers passing through Hierapolis what the surviving disciples of Jesus and the elders—those who had personally known the Twelve Apostles—were saying. One of these disciples was Aristion, probably bishop of nearby Smyrna,[12] and another was John the Elder, usually identified (despite Eusebius' protest) with John the Evangelist,[13] residing in nearby Ephesus, of whom Papias was a hearer;[4] Papias frequently cited both.[14] From the daughters of Philip, who settled in Hierapolis, Papias learned still other traditions.[15]

Papias provides the earliest extant account of who wrote the Gospels. Eusebius preserves two (possibly) verbatim excerpts from Papias on the origins of the Gospels, one concerning Mark[21] and then another concerning Matthew.[22] On Mark, Papias cites John the Elder.

See also:
 

Palehorse

Active Member
Christians today have never met Jesus physically yet believe in Him. Why?

If you say you believe in Christ because of the Bible then how do you know the Bible is true?

How do you know Christ and the Bible are true?

What makes you so sure?
Wtf. ...ya talkn bout christ or jesus...Jesus didn't have a last name...your question is fd up...ya talk bout christ or jesus..
I confused and don't understand
..
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
How can you possibly know of a plan from a god you have no evidence exists?
I believe one can't which is why the person who wants to know must get to know God from the Bible. I suggest starting with the book of John because John knows Him best.
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
The fruit of Baha'u'llah is to throw doubt on the Bible and it's obvious meaning. It says the Bible is true but then tells us about the places it is not true and the places it does not mean what it says.
Are you talking specifically about Baha'i?
Isn’t that like when the NT claims that the OT is obsolete in areas?
 

We Never Know

No Slack
The Bible is replete with internal contradictions and errors of history and science. That disqualifies it as a reliable source.



What you are being told by experienced critical thinkers is that they will not believe in gods (or anything else) without sufficient supporting evidence according to the academic rules for interpreting evidence. Personally, I don't ask believer for that supporting evidence. I know they don't have it. I might disagree with somebody who claims he does by pointing out how he has misinterpreted his evidence. I might disagree with what he calls evidence, often something not evident. I might disagree that his evidence makes gods more likely to exist, and note that nothing can be called evidence for or against an idea that doesn't make it more or less likely to be the case. And I like identifying and naming logical fallacies in these arguments. But as far as asking a believer to support his beliefs, I don't. I know that they are faith-based, not evidence-based.



The agenda of the critical thinker is to avoid holding false beliefs and to accumulate only demonstrably correct ones. Faith is not a path to truth. That's self-evidently true, since whatever can be believed by faith, so can its polar opposite. This is a method that can't tell a correct idea from an incorrect one, and which is orders of magnitude more likely to be faith in a wrong idea that a correct one, since the former far outnumbers the latter.



I disagree that it is inappropriate to withhold belief absent sufficient supporting evidence for that belief. The claim that gods are inherently transcendent or ineffable doesn't make it so or make gods real. What you are describing is something that is undetectable not just contingently while awaiting for the right detector to be placed in the right place, but necessarily undetectable, which is also the description of every nonexistent thing. Why give this one unevidenced idea any more credence than any of the others like succubi, ghosts, Santa, werewolves, and leprechauns? Would it matter to you if I called them transcendent? I understand that believers are frequently offended by such comparisons. If so, I apologize. Feel free to substitute your own example of something you also cannot detect.



Critical thinking is a defense against indoctrination and false belief.



And what do you say to someone who finds those teachings less than impeccable? The wife and I were discussing this just last night with the neighbors over wine. One said that surely I must find much of the moral advice in the Bible sound, and I agreed, but noted that there were several points of departure between what I consider moral and what scripture teaches, much of which I consider harmful. It's the rational ethics of humanism that has advanced the religions morally. To the extent that it has learned, which is incomplete, humanism taught Christianity that democracy freedom of and from religions is preferable to theocracy, that homosexuals and atheists are not abominations, that people aren't property, and that women are the equal of men.



That's an interesting comment. So, if you see an error, you use your common sense and discrimination to call it that and reject it? Then what? Go on trusting the source anyway? If that's correct, how is that not the definition of blind faith belief in the absence of sufficient supporting evidence or in the presence of falsifying evidence? I do the opposite when I see an error. It's why I'm not a Christian any longer.



So has the propaganda. Look at the word and its root. People have been propagating this religion and its scriptures all of that time, sometimes at the point of a crusader's or conquistadore's sword, sometimes with missionaries, sometimes in Sunday schools, sometimes by putting Bibles in hotel rooms, and even sometimes advertising during the Super Bowl. Super Bowl ads will tout Jesus 'gets us' to the masses - ABC News (go.com)

"The Bible is replete with internal contradictions and errors of history and science"

Is it really? Could it be poorly translated?
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Isn’t that like when the NT claims that the OT is obsolete in areas?

No because Jesus brought in the New Covenant which is prophesied in the OT. One way the New Covenant is different to the Moses Covenant in that yes we learn from the OT and Law about God and how He want us to live but instead of having a list of commands to follow, God has given us His Spirit to be with and guide us and we are to follow the Spirit and live by the law of love, to love others as love ourselves, and to forgive others just as we have been forgiven by God.
So in that respect, parts of the OT are at least applied differently, but it is nothing like what Baha'i does when it just flat out denies parts of the Bible.
An interesting way they do that is when the claimant to be the return of Christ basically says............ "I'm the return of Christ and only I can tell you what the Bible means and that includes the sections which apply to the return of Christ, I will tell you what they mean and how the plain, obvious meaning that Christians believe, is not true. Trust me."
And they do. It's like hypnosis imo.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Christians today have never met Jesus physically yet believe in Him. Why?

If you say you believe in Christ because of the Bible then how do you know the Bible is true?

How do you know Christ and the Bible are true?

What makes you so sure?
It isn't necessary for a Christian to "believe the story". Only that they understand and trust in the message and promise that the story conveys.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"The Bible is replete with internal contradictions and errors of history and science" Is it really?
Take a peek yourself.
Could it be poorly translated?
Which translation? They all pretty much look alike.
It isn't necessary for a Christian to "believe the story".
Most Christians would disagree with that. So would I. That's my sole criterion for considering a person is a Christian. When a person tells you that they are a Christian, they're telling you that they accept the central dogma of the religion.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Take a peek yourself.

Which translation? They all pretty much look alike.

Most Christians would disagree with that. So would I. That's my sole criterion for considering a person is a Christian. When a person tells you that they are a Christian, they're telling you that they accept the central dogma of the religion.
And you're all quite wrong.
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
No, not preaching, nor merely folklore; historical fact.

“Jewish and Roman sources both testify to an empty tomb. Matthew 28:12-13 specifically states that the chief priests invented the story that the disciples stole the body. There would be no need for this fabrication if the tomb had not been empty. Opponents of the Resurrection must account for this. If the tomb had not been empty, the preaching of the Apostles would not have lasted one day. All the Jewish authorities needed to do to put an end to Christianity was to produce the body of Jesus.

Along with the empty tomb is the fact that the corpse of Jesus was never found. Not one historical record from the first or second century is written attacking the factuality of the empty tomb or claiming discovery of the corpse. Tom Anderson, former president of the California Trial Lawyers Association, states:

Let's assume that the written accounts of His appearances to hundreds of people are false. I want to pose a question. With an event so well publicized, don't you think that it's reasonable that one historian, one eye witness, one antagonist would record for all time that he had seen Christ's body? ... The silence of history is deafening when it comes to the testimony against the resurrection.[2]

Second, we have the changed lives of the Apostles. It is recorded in the Gospels that while Jesus was on trial, the Apostles deserted Him in fear. Yet 10 out of the 11 original Apostles died as martyrs believing Christ rose from the dead. What accounts for their transformation into men willing to die for their message? It must have been a very compelling event to account for this.

Third, the Apostles began preaching the Resurrection in Jerusalem. This is significant since this is the very city in which Jesus was crucified. This was the most hostile city in which to preach. Furthermore, all the evidence was there for everyone to investigate. Legends take root in foreign lands or centuries after the event. Discrediting such legends is difficult since the facts are hard to verify. However, in this case the preaching occurs in the city of the event immediately after it occurred. Every possible fact could have been investigated thoroughly.

Anyone studying the Resurrection must somehow explain these three facts.”


The Resurrection - Fact or Fiction?
The Bible has people who spent months or years with Jesus and couldn’t recognize him post crucifixion.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
And yet you believe the author instead of the critics who were supposedly there as well.
According to the scriptures and Roman practice, there was a large heavy stone blocking the tomb with Roman soldiers guarding it. The disciples had all run and hid after the death of Jesus. Not too plausible they confronted the guards, moved the stone, or stole the body.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
No, not preaching, nor merely folklore; historical fact.

“Jewish and Roman sources both testify to an empty tomb. Matthew 28:12-13 specifically states that the chief priests invented the story that the disciples stole the body. There would be no need for this fabrication if the tomb had not been empty. Opponents of the Resurrection must account for this. If the tomb had not been empty, the preaching of the Apostles would not have lasted one day. All the Jewish authorities needed to do to put an end to Christianity was to produce the body of Jesus.

Along with the empty tomb is the fact that the corpse of Jesus was never found. Not one historical record from the first or second century is written attacking the factuality of the empty tomb or claiming discovery of the corpse. Tom Anderson, former president of the California Trial Lawyers Association, states:

Let's assume that the written accounts of His appearances to hundreds of people are false. I want to pose a question. With an event so well publicized, don't you think that it's reasonable that one historian, one eye witness, one antagonist would record for all time that he had seen Christ's body? ... The silence of history is deafening when it comes to the testimony against the resurrection.[2]

Second, we have the changed lives of the Apostles. It is recorded in the Gospels that while Jesus was on trial, the Apostles deserted Him in fear. Yet 10 out of the 11 original Apostles died as martyrs believing Christ rose from the dead. What accounts for their transformation into men willing to die for their message? It must have been a very compelling event to account for this.

Third, the Apostles began preaching the Resurrection in Jerusalem. This is significant since this is the very city in which Jesus was crucified. This was the most hostile city in which to preach. Furthermore, all the evidence was there for everyone to investigate. Legends take root in foreign lands or centuries after the event. Discrediting such legends is difficult since the facts are hard to verify. However, in this case the preaching occurs in the city of the event immediately after it occurred. Every possible fact could have been investigated thoroughly.

Anyone studying the Resurrection must somehow explain these three facts.”


The Resurrection - Fact or Fiction?
What I don't understand is how the Baha'i Faith can say they believe in the Bible and the NT and that they believe in Christianity, yet they don't believe in the resurrection. Somehow and for some reason, they believe those verses about the empty tomb, the resurrection and ascension are all symbolic. Which to me is just a way for them to say that the resurrection is not true, as a physical reality, but to then being able to say that it was "spiritually" true... that Jesus rose spiritually, not literally.
 
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