• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Christians- How do you know Jesus and the Bible are true?

joelr

Well-Known Member
Martyrdom of a Muslim or Christian may not be any different in that it shows a person's faith in whatever they believe.
The apostles however were people who saw the risen Jesus, they are the witnesses who spread the gospel to the world because of what they witnessed. If they recant their teaching on the risen Jesus, they are denying that they saw Jesus after His resurrection, but they did not recant, and being willing to be martyred rather than deny what they were teaching, shows that their witness of Jesus was true, it actually happened,
1) We can't know if they had the chance to recant.
2) They may have recanted, and been killed anyway
3) it's a story, no historian of the time backs any of this up, we only know of 2 apostles fate, the gospels are not history, they are fictive stories
4) Martyrdom in Judaism is a big concept and it's not surprising it ended up in the Gospel story.

5) all fictional cults use techniques like stories of martyrdom to bring credibility, still not true
6) Islamic martyrdom



Our own Prophet Muhammad was also according to some narrations a martyr as well. However, perhaps the most prominent martyr in Islam is Hussain ibn Ali who was martyred in Karbala on the day of Ashura.

Gabriel Informs the Prophet of the Fate of Imam Hussain​

Narrations state that when Imam Hussain was born, the archangel Gabriel descended on the Prophet and told him what would ultimately happen to his second grandson. Therefore, he told him the story of Hussain’s sacrifice and his encounter with the tyrant of his time Yazid. Gabriel told the whole story of how Imam Hussain at Karbala and how he was left with only 72 companions and martyred innocently, and how his blood saved Islam. The Prophet wept a lot for Imam Hussain and so did Ali and Fatimah after hearing his story. The Prophet had said:
Hussain is from me and I am from Hussain. 1


Wow, Islam must be true

The Gospel stories are clearly fiction. Paul's death is not known in detail and Peter was killed by Nero who was looking to kill Christians.
This looks like a lot of made-up stuff and Paul never saw Jesus, just hallucinations, (not likely.)

The date of Paul's death is believed to have occurred after the Great Fire of Rome in July 64 AD, but before the last year of Nero's reign, in 68 AD.[2]

The Second Epistle to Timothy states that Paul was arrested in Troad[188] and brought back to Rome, where he was imprisoned and put on trial; the Epistle was traditionally ascribed to Paul, but today many scholars considered it to be pseudepigrapha, perhaps written by one of Paul's disciples.[189] Pope Clement I writes in his Epistle to the Corinthians that after Paul "had borne his testimony before the rulers", he "departed from the world and went unto the holy place, having been found a notable pattern of patient endurance."[190] Ignatius of Antioch writes in his Epistle to the Ephesians that Paul was martyred, without giving any further information.[191]

Eusebius states that Paul was killed during the Neronian Persecution[192] and, quoting from Dionysius of Corinth, argues that Peter and Paul were martyred "at the same time".[193] Tertullian writes that Paul was beheaded like John the Baptist,[194] a detail also contained in Lactantius,[195]Jerome,[196] John Chrysostom[197] and Sulpicius Severus.[198][full citation needed]

A legend later developed that his martyrdom occurred at the Aquae Salviae, on the Via Laurentina. According to this legend, after Paul was decapitated, his severed head rebounded three times, giving rise to a source of water each time that it touched the ground, which is how the place earned the name "San Paolo alle Tre Fontane" ("St Paul at the Three Fountains").[199][200] The apocryphal Acts of Paul also describe the martyrdom and the burial of Paul, but their narrative is highly fanciful and largely unhistorical.[201]
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Christians today have never met Jesus physically yet believe in Him. Why?

If you say you believe in Christ because of the Bible then how do you know the Bible is true?

How do you know Christ and the Bible are true?

What makes you so sure?
For me, on many levels.

1) The prophetic accuracy of what was written over thousands of years
2) The reasoning behind the need of The Word becoming flesh
3) The historical support of what is written
4) Personal experiences that confirm He is with me.

I remember one of the statements I made in my mind when I gave my life to Jesus Christ of Nazareth which was, "Either the Bible is true or it is false. I will start with it being true and then test the sucker. I'll find out soon enough if it is false". (paraphrased) It is still holding true after 40 years.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
No, I believe scholarship that can present evidence and sources and back things up with facts. All historical scholarship shows the Bible is a syncretic work which uses older theology and evolves it to include Jewish additions. The OT used Mesopotamian mythology and the NT used Hellenism and Persian myth and combined it with Jewish ideas. This is consensus, the details are what is debated.

All of this is backed up by known facts. Facts which you are unaware of because you avoid things based on belief which is the absolute worst way to find out what is true. You just admitted you use confirmation bias to keep your beliefs safe.

I didn't say I use confirmation bias but I use my faith just as you use yours. You actually believe the speculations you read are historical facts. I use my faith to see that they are not and to see why they are not. They are based on skeptic presumptions built on other earlier skeptic presumptions. The whole thing ends up as one big circular argument but those who believe it think the arguments are fine. But they are only fine if the skeptic presumptions are true.

The Bible can be demonstrated to be a myth. There is also no way to determine any prophecy. Again, would you read the Quran and decide to believe any supernatural story, or Hindu scripture? What about JW theology?

Then we have all the prophecy in the OT that never happened. Yahweh made many promises that did not happen. So now we overlook those and assume others are real?

I already pointed out Mark is using prophecy is a specific way in Mark, it's part of the story, not literal prophecy.

This prophecy thing is so played out. There are literally thousands of pieces of evidence you ignore and hang on this one mention of the temple destruction.

I am not hanging on the one prophecy, the Temple destruction, it is skeptics who hang on to this with the presumption that it cannot be true and use it to discredit the gospel story. It is skeptics who hang on to it and therefore ignore the evidence that the synoptics were written before the Temple destruction, and ignore the Church history about who wrote those gospels.
All skeptics have imo is the presumption that the Temple prophecy was written after 70AD and all the other so called evidence is built on that.

They are the opinion of scholars because there is evidence for them.

Jesus also says -
Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

There are other scholars with the opposite pov but nothing like ignoring those and treating them like biased and non scholarly pseudo scholars and saying that your pov is correct because it has the opinion of most scholars supporting it. (sounds like a logical fallacy to me and I don't even know if it is the truth or just a claim anyway)
When it comes to misinterpretation of prophecies about the return of Jesus, skeptics win the prize.
Some skeptics seem to want the prophecies to have been written after everyone from Jesus generation is dead and still claim that those who made up the prophecies claim that He said He would return before that happened.

Meanwhile you don't buy into one single supernatural event in the Quran, Mormon scripture, Jehovas Witness updates?
I don't know why you won't just admit you do have a supernatural bias as well.
What you are doing is the same as all scholars you criticize. There isn't enough evidence to warrant belief in those other things so you don't.
It's the same for the Gospels.

I believe the Bible and believe it as I believe it and not as JW hierarchy, Mormon prophets or Muhammad say to believe it. 76y76y65t. And that is what my cat wanted to say about it.
I certainly have enough evidence to believe the gospel but as a skeptic with all the skeptic presumptions you have and all the skeptic scholarship that is there to be read now, claiming itself to be factual and real history, the evidence I have is drowned under all that muddy water for you.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Josephus and gnostic sources speaks of James, Jesus brother.
Acts of the apostles speak of James the brother of John.
Early Christian writers mention the martyrdom of Peter and Paul as if it was common knowledge.
Nobody says that the apostles denied their faith.
Christian sources have various stories of the deaths of most of the apostles, but martyrdom is a common cause even if the actual cause of death varies.

Did Christians Lie About the Martyrdom Accounts of the Apostles?
Nice source, apologists, no qualifications?
HE starts out with the James passage in Josephus is reliable and undisputed? Can you source a PhD on the subject or are you afraid of truth?
Early Christian writers are quoting THE GOSPELS??? Everyone is using the same source so of course it doesn't say they denied their faith?

What’s Happened of Late

We know Josephus published the Jewish War about 75 A.D. And no mention of the Christian Jesus is in it. Josephus then published the Jewish Antiquities about 93 A.D. And in surviving manuscripts of that today, there are two references to the Christian Jesus: the Testimonium Flavianum (in book 18) and a reference to James the brother of Jesus (in book 20). The first is a brief fawning paragraph about Jesus whose authenticity has been widely doubted for centuries. How much of it is authentic, or if any reference to Jesus existed there at all, remains widely debated. The second is a single line that connects the execution of a certain James to Jesus “the one called Christ” without any explanation. That has been doubted by some experts over the decades, but accepted as authentic by most.

1. New Findings

In my talk I point out how recent publications by myself (Richard Carrier), Louis Feldman, G.J. Goldberg, Paul Hopper, Ken Olson, and Alice Whealey shed new light on what happened, altering what we should conclude about what Josephus originally wrote. No expert opinion on the authenticity of either passage is citeable, if it isn’t informed by their published research on it over the last ten years.

In my handout, I include a brief traditional bibliography (principally Paget 2001, Van Voorst 2000, and Whealey 2003) that’s still required reading on the matter (which readings in turn reference everything earlier worth considering). But it’s also out of date. To get up to date, and thus have a fully informed opinion on this subject, requires having read everything on the new essential bibliography I include on page 2.

There I include Whealey 2016 not because it’s essential reading, though, but because it exemplifies the problem of declaring opinions without referencing or even being aware of what’s been published on the subject over the ten years prior. That’s an uninformed opinion. It’s therefore worthless. Even though it was published after 2014! So it’s not even enough, evidently, to cite opinions published after 2013. You also have to check if those opinions took into account the latest research since 2008! If they didn’t, then they are, again, useless, unciteable.

2. Overview

Among the things we have confirmed now is that all surviving manuscripts of the Antiquities derive from the last manuscript of it produced at the Christian library of Caesarea between 220 and 320 A.D., the same manuscript used and quoted by Eusebius, the first Christian in history to notice either passage being in the Antiquities of Josephus. That means we have no access to any earlier version of the text (we do not know what the text looked like prior to 230 A.D.), and we have access to no version of the text untouched by Eusebius (no other manuscript in any other library ever on earth produced any copies that survive to today). That must be taken into account.

The latest research collectively establishes that both references to Jesus were probably added to the manuscripts of Josephus at the Library of Caesarea after their first custodian, Origen—who had no knowledge of either passage—but by the time of their last custodian, Eusebius—who is the first to find them there. The long passage (the Testimonium Flavianum) was almost certainly added deliberately; the later passage about James probably had the phrase “the one called Christ” (just three words in Greek) added to it accidentally, and was not originally about the Christian James, but someone else. On why we should conclude thus I’ll explain shortly.

Both these additions may have been made by, or at the direction or under the supervision of, Eusebius…or his predecessor at the library, Origen’s successor, Pamphilus. The possibility that Pamphilus was the culprit has been overlooked by everyone in print so far. I mention it to further inform anyone who would ponder the options here. Evidence establishing Eusebius as the author is stylistic (I’ll summarize that shortly), but as Pamphilus taught Eusebius, it’s possible the stylistic features of Eusebius that are found in the Testimonium are actually the stylistic features of Pamphilus that were picked up by his student. As we don’t have any of the writings of Pamphilus, we can’t check to rule him out on stylistic grounds. (And it’s worth noting, every argument that has been attempted to rule Eusebius out, does not apply to Pamphilus; although I’ve never found those arguments very compelling anyway.)

Besides those observations, six things in all have changed since opinions were last declared on this subject:

  • Reliance on the Arabic version of the Testimonium must be discarded.
  • Attempts to invent a pared-down version of what Josephus wrote are untenable.
  • The Testimonium derives from the New Testament.
  • The Testimonium doesn’t match Josephan narrative practice or context.
  • The Testimonium matches Eusebian more than Josephan style.
  • Previous opinions on the James passage were unaware of new findings, and therefore require revision.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Josephus and gnostic sources speaks of James, Jesus brother.
Acts of the apostles speak of James the brother of John.
Early Christian writers mention the martyrdom of Peter and Paul as if it was common knowledge.
Nobody says that the apostles denied their faith.
Christian sources have various stories of the deaths of most of the apostles, but martyrdom is a common cause even if the actual cause of death varies.

Did Christians Lie About the Martyrdom Accounts of the Apostles?
Let's see what a qualified PhD says when he applies his scholarship to this question, someone who actually understands what the actual evidence is and not a bunch of amateur guesswork and assumptions:


Did the Apostles Die for a Lie?​

BY RICHARD CARRIER ON APRIL 7, 201634 COMMENTS

Do we have good evidence that Paul or any of the original twelve Apostles died for their belief in the risen Jesus? Nope. Nevertheless, Justin Bass claimed so in a lecture you can view online (Evidence of the Apostles’ Martyrdom).
I may eventually write a commentary on the whole Carrier-Bass debate, now that it’s available for viewing online.
But first I want to post my observations of that previous lecture he gave that pertains to the subject. I viewed and annotated that in preparation for our debate, and had all my notes ready at the table. And yet, though Bass leaned on this claim in our debate (the famous “No One Would Die for a Lie” gambit), I didn’t need to get into much detail to refute his argument against the clock.
As I noted in the debate, he couldn’t establish that they died for anything more than a vision, and visions are ubiquitous across religions—even now, but then especially. He couldn’t even establish that they could have avoided their deaths by recanting. Or even that what they died for was their belief in the resurrection, rather than their moral vision for society, or (I could have added) some other belief they wouldn’t recant—such as their already-Jewish refusal to worship pagan gods, the only thing Pliny really ever killed Christians for (the resurrection was never even at issue); and that’s the only explicitly eyewitness account we have of any Christians being killed for anything in the whole first hundred years of the religion.
But there is a lot more to be said.
I’ve taken down this gullible argument before (see A Digression on Witnesses Being Willing to Die). I’ll quote that below. As have others (a good quick summary with links to the best examples is provided by Bob Seidensticker, and we must add to that Matthew Ferguson’s excellent and more recent survey in March to Martyrdom). The argument has really been dead for decades. Why Christians keep using it astonishes me. That they think it is convincing is proof positive that Christians are hopelessly gullible. Which is ironic. Because it is precisely the gullibility of Christians that collapses the argument itself. People often believe unwaveringly in things on very poor evidence (“people die for all kinds of bull****,” as a dear friend once said—the Heaven’s Gate cult being a prominent example, where all the evidence that their belief was false was available; they died for it anyway). That’s why the “No One Would Die for a Lie” argument is so sad. Christians today don’t even know that by believing that argument, they are in themselves illustrating the very reason why that argument is unsound.
Here is how it breaks down…


 

Brian2

Veteran Member
I remember one of the statements I made in my mind when I gave my life to Jesus Christ of Nazareth which was, "Either the Bible is true or it is false. I will start with it being true and then test the sucker. I'll find out soon enough if it is false". (paraphrased) It is still holding true after 40 years.

I remember something similar I said when I came onto the forums with all the anti Bible stuff.
"It does not matter if I am convinced that the Bible is not true. If I go that way in my search for the truth then so be it."
But like you, even with all the anti stuff I still have not found that the Bible is not true.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
The whole thing seems to be based on the idea that the Christian history of Mark being a translator of Peter is wrong and that the prophecy of Jesus about the Temple destruction is something that could not happen until after the destruction of the Temple.
There is no evidence of any supernatural events or magical beings.
Again, just like you reject the Angel Gabrielle giving updates for Christianity, scholars have no reason to see this fiction as prophecy. But hundreds of reasons to see it as fiction.
The actual evidence in my pov is that Mark was indeed the first of the gospels we have (even if there may have been earlier attempts as Luke tells us), and that since the Acts and gospel of Luke appear to be before the destruction of the Temple, that means that Mark was also before that.
Acts is beyond fictional and Pervo's work demonstrated that beyond any doubt.
As I pointed out Luke can be demonstrated to be a bad historian and not reliable.



So just use the anti supernatural bias to misplace the writing of Mark and therefore the other synoptic gospels and it becomes legitimate it seems to ask where Mark sourced his gospel account and to say that the gospel account was a fiction based on specious ideas about similarities between Mark
nothing to do with any "supernatural bias". Mark can be shown to be using sources, OT, Paul, possible Jesus Ben Ananias and definitely 100% Hellenistic theology.




and Greek epic stories, and twisting the OT prophecies around to be used in reverse, (the prophecies are not true so they were used as a source for the gospel account of Mark).
That is an after effect. Mark is clearly sourcing older fiction, using fictive language, not writing as history is written in style and content but is also making a trendy myth, common at the time as each nation was Hellenized. Judea was Hellenized for 1 century before Christianity arose.



Then comparing Paul with Mark and not assuming any similarities to do with Jesus means Mark copied Paul also (even if there should be similarities about the life of Jesus in those who wrote about Him).
No, actually it's clear Mark took stories from Paul and made them into earthly events. Like the last supper where Jesus tells Paul something to tell future Christians - he is the body and blood and so on.

Mark changes this to an actual supper with people.
Mark gives Jesus a family, a ministry, a home on Earth. A human body. Fiction.




Then forgetting any supernatural bias and saying that a Jesus Ben Ananias was a source for Mark's Temple prophecy and not the other way around.
Uh, the Josephus the Jesus Ben Ananias is taken from is way earlier than the dates for Mark you want. So that is impossible? Do you think about this even a little?



Basically the whole thing is pseudo scholarship imo but is gladly picked up as proven history by the already converted and set to throw doubt at believers who cannot see through it for what it is.
When you explain it wrong it is psuedo-reality, yes.
I never said everything here is proven, it's demonstrable, it's evidence, we have some dates, the stories match.
You haven't debunked anything yet, just called it pueudo-scholarship without giving evidence.
You didn't explain one single thing? Explain why Mark seems to make earthly stories from Paul, explain how he made an impossible chiasmus with Paul's teachings that could never happen in real life in this way and is definitely a literary construction.

Jesus B.A. is older than Mark, you didn't explain that. You haven't even touched how all this Hellenism and Persian myth. that was syncretically blended with all other religions nearby, before Christianity is now being blended perfectly with Judaism?
Why is the Christian baptism exactly like the Pagan baptism? The communal meal exactly like the Pagan version. Along with everything else not in Judaism?

You haven't debunked one single example in anything but call it bad scholarship?
Yet the gospels are not proven, not sourced, anon, names added late 2nd century, all copied from Mark, written like fiction, using Hellenistic fiction, and even some Persian fiction, savior demigods who provide salvation and rise in 3 days were all the rage before Jesus, and yet you can explain any of it except to call scholarship " pseudo"??

It's the most obvious fiction since Zeus and you haven't offered one single explanation for why it's real except for this "supernatural bias" which is way off topic. Just like you don't believe an angel visited Muhammad because IT's FICTION AND YOU KNOW IT, it's the same here. All signs point to fiction.


I have given scholarship on every single bad point (all of them) you have made. Your repeated response is to just call the scholarship bad.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
I didn't say I use confirmation bias but I use my faith just as you use yours. You actually believe the speculations you read are historical facts. I use my faith to see that they are not and to see why they are not.
They are facts because you can see the evidence. I didn't say it was a fact that Mark sourced all of these things mentioned. Some have many papers backing them up and are extremely likely to be correct. Like the Paul examples.
"Faith" is not a path to truth. Muslims, Hindu and Mormons all claim faith. Islamic apologists can say they use faith to show you are wrong. JW will use faith to show you are influenced by Satan and will go to hell soon.

When you are tired of living a fantasy then use empirical evidence to demonstrate facts and see you do not have any to back up this religion.

Use your faith, LOL. You basically just admitted defeat here.

I'm not using faith, scholars demonstrate evidence you can fact check yourself.



They are based on skeptic presumptions built on other earlier skeptic presumptions. The whole thing ends up as one big circular argument but those who believe it think the arguments are fine. But they are only fine if the skeptic presumptions are true.
It is true Christianity is a Hellenistic and Judaism mystery religion blend. It is true the Gospels are anon and written in a fictive, mythical style. It is true they have no witnesses and are a story about a Hellenistic savior, same as all the other older religions who were Hellenized.

It is true MArk is using Psalms and Kings to create narratives. It is true the OT is using Mesopotamian myths. And many more.
It is true that Mark looks to be using Greek poems as a source as well as Jesus B.A.. The stories are very similar.
That is true. Please debunk one thing, anything. You have done nothing except just deny.





I am not hanging on the one prophecy, the Temple destruction, it is skeptics who hang on to this with the presumption that it cannot be true and use it to discredit the gospel story. It is skeptics who hang on to it and therefore ignore the evidence that the synoptics were written before the Temple destruction, and ignore the Church history about who wrote those gospels.
Uh, no, it's that it's written like fiction. Uses a syncretic blend of Judaism and Hellenism/Persian mythology. Is anonymous, not eyewitness and looks to be sourcing many older stories. Looks to be making earthly stories of the Epistles. I don't hear you debunking any of this?
That and MORE is why it's fiction. Your "anti-supernatural" is crank.
You don't read the Quran, Mormon scripture or Zeus stories and say "I don't believe it because I'm anti-supernatural". No, you know it's a fictional story for many reasons.
The Gospels have been shown to be fiction for many many reasons. Nothing to do with a supernatural bias.





All skeptics have imo is the presumption that the Temple prophecy was written after 70AD and all the other so called evidence is built on that.

There are no skeptics. There are believers and people who know it's the same as the Quran or Mithras gospels. If you could get past your cognitive bias you would see there is literally no actual reason to believe this is true. You have an emotional attachment to the story and think you will go to a heaven forever.



There are other scholars with the opposite pov but nothing like ignoring those and treating them like biased and non scholarly pseudo scholars and saying that your pov is correct because it has the opinion of most scholars supporting it. (sounds like a logical fallacy to me and I don't even know if it is the truth or just a claim anyway)
Wow, is that so? Please post the work of these historians!!!!!





When it comes to misinterpretation of prophecies about the return of Jesus, skeptics win the prize.
Some skeptics seem to want the prophecies to have been written after everyone from Jesus generation is dead and still claim that those who made up the prophecies claim that He said He would return before that happened.
There are no skeptics. There are people who know the Gospels are no different than the gospels of Heracles. None of these people care about when they were written. Fictional characters don't exist in any time. The 2nd coming is a Persian rip-off which fundamentalists cannot accept because of emotional attachment.

Revelations





but Zoroaster taught that the blessed must wait for this culmination till Frashegird and the 'future body' (Pahlavi 'tan i pasen'), when the earth will give up the bones of the dead (Y 30.7). This general resurrection will be followed by the Last Judgment, which will divide all the righteous from the wicked, both those who have lived until that time and those who have been judged already. Then Airyaman, Yazata of friendship and healing, together with Atar, Fire, will melt all the metal in the mountains, and this will flow in a glowing river over the earth. All mankind must pass through this river, and, as it is said in a Pahlavi text, 'for him who is righteous it will seem like warm milk, and for him who is wicked, it will seem as if he is walking in the • flesh through molten metal' (GBd XXXIV. r 8-r 9). In this great apocalyptic vision Zoroaster perhaps fused, unconsciously, tales of volcanic eruptions and streams of burning lava with his own experience of Iranian ordeals by molten metal; and according to his stern original teaching, strict justice will prevail then, as at each individual j udgment on earth by a fiery ordeal. So at this last ordeal of all the wicked will suffer a second death, and will perish off the face of the earth. The Daevas and legions of darkness will already have been annihilated in a last great battle with the Yazatas; and the river of metal will flow down into hell, slaying Angra Mainyu and burning up the last vestige of wickedness in the universe.


Ahura Mazda and the six Amesha Spentas will then solemnize a lt, spiritual yasna, offering up the last sacrifice (after which death wW be no more), and making a preparation of the mystical 'white haoma', which will confer immortality on the resurrected bodies of all the blessed, who will partake of it. Thereafter men will beome like the Immortals themselves, of one thought, word and deed, unaging, free from sickness, without corruption, forever joyful in the kingdom of God upon earth. For it is in this familiar and beloved world, restored to its original perfection, that, according to Zoroaster, eternity will be passed in bliss, and not in a remote insubstantial Paradise. So the time of Separation is a renewal of the time of Creation, except that no return is prophesied to the original uniqueness of living things. Mountain and valley will give place once more to level plain; but whereas in the beginning there was one plant, one animal, one man, the rich variety and number that have since issued from these will remain forever. Similarly the many divinities who were brought into being by Ahura Mazda will continue to have their separate existences. There is no prophecy of their re-absorption into the Godhead. As a Pahlavi text puts it, after Frashegird 'Ohrmaid and the Amahraspands and all Yazads and men will be together. .. ; every place will resemble a garden in spring, in which


there are all kinds of trees and flowers ... and it will be entirely the creation of Ohrrnazd' (Pahl.Riv.Dd. XLVIII, 99, lOO, l07).






I believe the Bible and believe it as I believe it and not as JW hierarchy, Mormon prophets or Muhammad say to believe it. 76y76y65t. And that is what my cat wanted to say about it.
Yet their evidence is exactly as strong as yours. Faith. You already admitted to it.



I certainly have enough evidence to believe the gospel but as a skeptic with all the skeptic presumptions you have and all the skeptic scholarship that is there to be read now, claiming itself to be factual and real history, the evidence I have is drowned under all that muddy water for you.


I have no presumptions. I have only facts. The sources for Mark are not certain, the Paul use is almost certain.
Debunk the examples if you can

Other facts about the gospels are fact.

Other facts about the theology are known fact. The lack of witnesses are fact. The lack of mentions about Jesus outside the fictive stories are fact.
The OT is Mesopotamian and Yahweh is a typical Near Eastern deity, fact. Revelations is a Persian myth, fact. Satan as a devil was Persian first. Fact.
All you have done is make a claim, which your entire religion is based on. Your claim is about scholarship, yet you cannot demonstrate one single thing?

You do not have any evidence for the Gospels. You just believe and have faith, you already let it slip.
So your words about scholarship is not true. Show it, provide examples of where scholarship is incorrect, source your work, maybe once.
So far you are at ZERO counter points. You have explained over and over how you trick yourself without using any evidence, facts, scholarship or logic. Ok, great, not an actual argument?
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
For me, on many levels.

1) The prophetic accuracy of what was written over thousands of years

Genesis is Mesopotamian mythology, there are hundreds of inconsistencies and reinterpretations Christianity did which are not actually about Jesus and can be shown to be incorrect





2) The reasoning behind the need of The Word becoming flesh
The Logos is not a Christian thing, it's from Plato and was in other religions as well

3) The historical support of what is written
Nothing. Yale Divinity lectures, Dr Joel Baden, Christiane Hayes, John Collins, NT - Ehrman, Litwa, Carrier, Lataster, Price, Purvoe, Pagels, Fransesca Strav....so many more, all say myth

100% that Christianity is a syncretic blend of Hellenistic/Persian trends that were sweeping the region and only places that were conquered by Greeks. Baptism, Eucharist, savior deities under a superme God who rise in 3 days and defeat death to get followers into an afterlife, in every mystery religion, mystery religions are local religions influenced by Hellenism.


4) Personal experiences that confirm He is with me.

Hinduism and Islam have this equally as strong, even surprised me. Krishna is a very personal deity and speaks through emotions and feelings.
I remember one of the statements I made in my mind when I gave my life to Jesus Christ of Nazareth which was, "Either the Bible is true or it is false. I will start with it being true and then test the sucker. I'll find out soon enough if it is false". (paraphrased) It is still holding true after 40 years.
Hindu GF and Muslim GF who said the same, still going strong, still claiming they are correct and Allah tells them in their heart every day (or Krishna).
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Genesis is Mesopotamian mythology, there are hundreds of inconsistencies and reinterpretations Christianity did which are not actually about Jesus and can be shown to be incorrect






The Logos is not a Christian thing, it's from Plato and was in other religions as well


Nothing. Yale Divinity lectures, Dr Joel Baden, Christiane Hayes, John Collins, NT - Ehrman, Litwa, Carrier, Lataster, Price, Purvoe, Pagels, Fransesca Strav....so many more, all say myth

100% that Christianity is a syncretic blend of Hellenistic/Persian trends that were sweeping the region and only places that were conquered by Greeks. Baptism, Eucharist, savior deities under a superme God who rise in 3 days and defeat death to get followers into an afterlife, in every mystery religion, mystery religions are local religions influenced by Hellenism.




Hinduism and Islam have this equally as strong, even surprised me. Krishna is a very personal deity and speaks through emotions and feelings.

Hindu GF and Muslim GF who said the same, still going strong, still claiming they are correct and Allah tells them in their heart every day (or Krishna).
I believe the question is "why do you believe" and not "why do you not agree". :)

Your points are simply standard sheeple answers. IMV
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Genesis is Mesopotamian mythology,
No, Mesopotamian mythology is derived from the Genesis of creation.

there are hundreds of inconsistencies and reinterpretations Christianity did which are not actually about Jesus and can be shown to be incorrect

No, this is more of personal interpretations :)
The Logos is not a Christian thing, it's from Plato and was in other religions as well
No, it may have been understood by Plato and other religions, but it is definitely a redemption issue.

Nothing. Yale Divinity lectures, Dr Joel Baden, Christiane Hayes, John Collins, NT - Ehrman, Litwa, Carrier, Lataster, Price, Purvoe, Pagels, Fransesca Strav....so many more, all say myth

100% that Christianity is a syncretic blend of Hellenistic/Persian trends that were sweeping the region and only places that were conquered by Greeks. Baptism, Eucharist, savior deities under a superme God who rise in 3 days and defeat death to get followers into an afterlife, in every mystery religion, mystery religions are local religions influenced by Hellenism.

Yes, modern philosophers and revisionists subscribe to those positions.
Hinduism and Islam have this equally as strong, even surprised me. Krishna is a very personal deity and speaks through emotions and feelings.

Yes, all religions come from "in the beginning".
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
People telling us about miracles they have witnessed is not evidence for many people and even if the people who claimed they saw miracles are alive today, their testimony is not seen as evidence by many it seems. Certainly not as evidence for something like the supernatural.
Many people seem to want scientific evidence that there is such a thing as the supernatural before they accept any other evidence for it.
In the books, heard somewhere, saw something and assumed it is a miracle. Many people have seen aliens or have been abducted by them.
If something really happened, then science will not be able to disprove it.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
In the books, heard somewhere, saw something and assumed it is a miracle. Many people have seen aliens or have been abducted by them.
If something really happened, then science will not be able to disprove it.

Yes unless the people were lying then something probably did happen and science cannot disprove it.
Many people seem to want to disprove what others say are their experiences however.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
I believe the question is "why do you believe" and not "why do you not agree". :)
That is the thread topic, I'm responding to your specific post. It happens,.

Your points are simply standard sheeple answers. IMV

That is ironic coming from someone in a religion which has no evidence for any God, any of the stories being true and has endless evidence that it's just another mythology. Especially since you seem to take advice from amateurs as you have posted historical articles written by complete novices sprouting tired old apologetics that have been debunked over and over.

The specific point I used in your response is the consensus of highly trained scholars who dedicate their lives to being able to understand the history, text, sources, archaeology, meaning of the religion, people and cultures of the period. Their work has to pass review of other experts in their field so everything is fact checked and the latest and best information towards what is true.

Now if you find the specific consensus taught at Yale Divinity Lectures to be spreading opinions (facts) that make one a "sheeple" then please back it up and debunk the information with scholarship and sources. Archaeology also is very illuminating so I can source the latest on this as well. I would like to know what makes this dedicated group of fields and their findings to cause people to be "sheeple" if one tries to educate themselves. Is following all scholarship make one a "sheeple" or is it just when they oppose your personal beliefs that lack all forms of evidence which causes you to attack educated people in anger?

Where does she get it wrong, I'll start with Profesor Hayes,

Lecture 2. The Hebrew Bible in Its Ancient Near Eastern Setting


0:22 - Bible shares cultural heritage of Near Eastern mythology but has it’s own take.

Bible written by elites (7th to 4th century) had a specific radical new worldview and imposed it on the earlier Israelite religion - monotheism.
Talks about Kaufmann and his apologetics that Israels monotheism is completely different than Near Eastern polytheism

38:30 Same as Dever, Israelite/Judean religion was not what is portrayed in Bible. Bible is written later and re-tells story of Israel.

39:42 in all likelihood, going by archaeology and scripture, Hebrews of an older time were not much different than it’s Near Eastern neighbors. Archaeology would suggest this.

Worship of household idols, fertility deities, engaged in various syncretistic practices, PROBABLY

40:49 Yahweh was probably very similar to the other gods of Canaanite religion - evidence suggests

40:52 continuities with Canaanite AND ancient Near Eastern religions are apparent in the worship practices and cult objects of ancient Judah and Israel as they are described in biblical stories and as we find in archaeological finds.


Bible contains sources of polytheism. Genesis 6, Nephilim - divine beings who descend to Earth and mate with humans.

Psalms - descriptions of meetings and conversations between multiple gods.

43:08 literate and monotheistic circles within Israelite society put a monotheistic framework onto the stories and traditions of the nation. They molded them into a foundation myth to shape Jewish identity. Possible start at 8th century. Projected their monotheism onto an earlier time. Monotheism is represented as beginning with Abraham - historically speaking it most likely began MUCH LATER. Probably as a minority movement. This creates the impression of the Biblical religion.


44:54 apologetics forces scripture to be monotheistic, the text is actually contradictory and inconsistent

45:27 - Creation story added to Pentateuch in one of the last rounds of editing, probably 6th century.


46:00 Genesis used and adapted themes from Near Eastern mythology




Seams and Sources: Genesis 5-11 and the Historical-Critical Method



10:45 snake in Eden is a standard literary device seen in fables of this era

(10:25 - snake not Satan, no Satan in Hebrew Bible)

14:05 acceptance of mortality theme in Eden and Gilamesh story

25:15 Gilgamesh flood story, Sumerian flood story comparisons


26:21 - there are significant contrasts as well between the Mesopotamian flood story and it’s Israelite ADAPTATION. Israelite story is purposely rejecting certain motifs and giving the opposite or an improved version (nicer deity…)

36:20 2 flood stories in Genesis, or contradictions and doublets.


Yahweh/Elohim, rain/cosmic waters flowing,

40:05 two creation stories, very different. Genesis 1 formalized, highly structured


Genesis 2 dramatic. Genesis 1 serious writing style, Genesis 2 uses Hebrew word puns.


Genesis 1/2 use different terms for gender


Genesis 1/2 use different names, description and style for God


Both stories have distinctive styles, vocabulary, themes, placed side by side. Flood stories are interwoven.


Genesis to 2nd Kings entire historical saga is repeated again in Chronicles.


And can you imagine, I had no idea a college education lead people to be "sheeple"? All because you believe in a mythology, cannot defend it or explain why scholarship is so united in their evidence and beliefs you need to call them "sheeple"?
Do they make announcements in your church to avoid college historicity courses to avoid being a "sheeple"? Because these are college text:

John Collins, Introduction to the Hebrew Bible 3rd ed.
“Biblical creation stories draw motifs from Mesopotamia, Much of the language and imagery of the Bible was culture specific and deeply embedded in the traditions of the Near East.
2nd ed. The Old Testament, Davies and Rogerson
“We know from the history of the composition of Gilamesh that ancient writers did adapt and re-use older stories……
It is safer to content ourselves with comparing the motifs and themes of Genesis with those of other ancient Near East texts.
In this way we acknowledge our belief that the biblical writers adapted existing stories, while we confess our ignorance about the form and content of the actual stories that the Biblical writers used.”
The Old Testament, A Historical and Literary Introduction to the Hebrew Scriptures, M. Coogan
“Genesis employs and alludes to mythical concepts and phrasing, but at the same time it also adapts transforms and rejected them”
God in Translation, Smith
“…the Bibles authors fashioned whatever they may have inherited of the Mesopotamian literary tradition on their own terms”
THE OT Text and Content, Matthews, Moyer
“….a great deal of material contained in the primeval epics in Genesis is borrowed and adapted from the ancient cultures of that region.”
The Formation of Genesis 1-11, Carr
“The previous discussion has made clear how this story in Genesis represents a complex juxtaposition of multiple traditions often found separately in the Mesopotamian literary world….”
The Priestly Vision of Genesis, Smith
“….storm God and cosmic enemies passed into Israelite tradition. The biblical God is not only generally similar to Baal as a storm god, but God inherited the names of Baal’s cosmic enemies, with names such as Leviathan, Sea, Death and Tanninim.”
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
No, Mesopotamian mythology is derived from the Genesis of creation.
Scholarship is 100% on this. I posted some Yale Divinity Lectures with timestamps and college text addressing that. There are many many more.

Flood Myths Older Than The Bible - Dr. Joshua Bowen


Assyriologist who specialized in Sumerian literary and liturgical compositions

1:25

OT scholars will say Genesis is using a Mesopotamian background and apologist will say

“Well no, there is no literary evidence that shows it borrowed, we cannot show literal evidence”…”it was in the air”….”how do you know it wasn’t true”…….somehow downplaying the Mesopotamian background…

2:57 Dr Josh Bowen - there is no question as far as Biblical scholars and Assyriologists are concerned that the Biblical text is much later than Mesopotamian text and it’s borrowing directly or subtly from Mesopotamia.

References monograph - Subtle Citation, Allusion and Translation in the Hebrew Bible by Z. Zevit. Explains intertexuality and what Hebrew Bible is doing. Not seen as plagiarism in the ancient world.

21:00

Enuma Elish, Babylonian creation myth Genesis 1 borrows from, is recited every year at the New Years festival. Exiled Israelite kings were in captivity in Babylonia. Genesis was written after the Exile.

Genesis demythicizes the Babylonian stories.

23:22

“(Well we don’t know which came first), is nonsense, we do know. The textual tradition for the flood story is much much earlier than the Biblical text. Israel is NOT EVEN A Nation”

No, this is more of personal interpretations :)

No all Old Testament PhD scholars know this.
A reading from Dr Joel Baden's Composition of the Pentateuch





NARRATIVE PROBLEMS

During the Reformation, when the challenging of authoritative claims, re- ligious and otherwise, was the order of the day, scholars began to insist on a close reading of the pentateuchal narrative on its own terms, as a history of Israel from the creation of the world until the death of Moses. Under these circumstances, it was not long before the literary problems of the text became undeniable.9 The hallmark of a unified composition, one created by a single author, is internal consistency: consistency of language and style, consistency of theme and thought, and, above all, consistency of story. Every narrative makes certain claims about the way events transpired—who, what, when, where, how, and why. When these elements are uniform throughout a text, there is no press- ing need to inquire as to its unity. In the Pentateuch, however, historical claims made in one passage are undermined or contradicted outright in another. The problems identified by the Reformation scholars are the same as those we strug- gle with today and can be classified in three major overlapping groups: contra- dictions, doublets, and discontinuities.

Contradictions in the pentateuchal narrative come in a variety of forms, from the smallest of details to the most important of historical claims. On the minor end are ostensibly simple disagreements about the names of people and places. Is Moses’s father-in-law named Reuel (Exod 2:18) or Jethro (Exod 3:1)? Is the mountain in the wilderness where Yahweh appeared to the people called Sinai (Exod 19:11) or Horeb (Exod 3:1; Deut 1:6)? Of somewhat more significance are disagreements about where, when, and even why an event took place. In Numbers 20:23–29, Aaron dies on Mount Hor; according to Deuteronomy 10:6, however, he dies in Moserah. In Numbers 3–4, after Moses has descended from the mountain and is receiving the laws, the Levites are assigned their cultic re- sponsibilities; but according to Deuteronomy 10:8, the Levites were set apart at a site in the wilderness called Jotbath.10 In Numbers 20:2–13, Moses is forbidden from crossing the Jordan because of his actions at the waters of Meribah, when he brought forth water from the rock; but then according to his own words in Deuteronomy 1:37–38, Moses was prohibited from entering the promised land not because of anything he did, but because of the sins of the people in the epi- sode of the spies. Major contradictions, with important historiographical and theological ramifications, are also present in the text. The premier example of these is the creation story in Genesis 1 and 2: in what order was the world cre- ated? was it originally watery or dry? were male and female created together, or was woman made from man’s rib? is man the culmination of creation, or the beginning? Other examples are equally problematic. For the cult: was the Tent of Meeting in the center of the Israelite camp (Num 2–3) and did Yahweh dwell there constantly (Exod 40:34–38), or was it situated well outside the camp (Exod 33:7), and does Yahweh descend to it only to speak with Moses (Exod 33:8–11)? For prophecy: could there be other prophets like Moses after his death (Deut 18:15), or not (Deut 34:10–12)? These contradictions, from minor to major, are difficult, and frequently impossible, to reconcile.
The second category of narrative inconsistency is doublets: stories that are told twice. In order to qualify as a literarily problematic repetition, two passages must not only tell a similar story, but do so in a way that renders them mutually exclusive: they must be events that could not possibly happen more than once. Thus one of the most often cited doublets in the Pentateuch, the patriarch pass- ing off his wife as his sister in a foreign land (Gen 12:10–20; 20; 26:6–11)—which is actually a triplet—does not count. As hard as it is to believe that Abraham would pull the same trick twice, and that Isaac would do the same a generation later, there is nothing in these stories that prohibits such a reading. The two stories about Abraham and Sarah are set in different regions (Egypt and Gerar), with different characters (Pharaoh and Abimelech), while the story about Isaac and Rebekah, although set in Gerar with Abimelech, obviously features differ- ent protagonists at a different time. On the grounds of narrative alone, all three stories could well belong to a single author.

There are truly problematic doublets, however. The city of Luz is renamed Bethel by Jacob in Genesis 28:19, as he is on his way from his father’s house to stay with his uncle Laban. The city of Luz is again renamed Bethel by Jacob in Genesis 35:15, on his way from his uncle Laban’s house to rejoin his father in Canaan. (Not to mention that Abraham had already built an altar at Bethel, already not called Luz, in Gen 12:8.) Similarly, the site of Beersheba is given its name on the basis of the oath sworn (nišba ̄ ‘) between Abraham and Abimelech in Genesis 21:31. It is named again by Isaac in Genesis 26:33, on the basis of the oath sworn between him and Abimelech. Jacob’s own name is changed to Israel when he wrestles with the divine being in Genesis 32:29. Jacob’s name is changed to Israel again by God at Bethel in Genesis 35:10. These doublets are mutually exclusive: in each case, the naming or renaming is recounted as if it is happening for the first and only time.
More striking are the narratives relating the thirst of the Israelites in the wil- derness. In Exodus 17:1–7, just after they have crossed the sea and before they arrive at the mountain in the wilderness, the people complain that they have no water to drink; Yahweh responds by telling Moses to strike a rock, from which water will come forth. Moses strikes the rock, the water comes forth, and the place is named Massah and Meribah. In Numbers 20:2–13, well after the Isra- elites have left the mountain, in the midst of their wilderness wandering, the people complain that they have no water to drink; Yahweh responds by telling Moses to speak to a rock, from which water will come forth. Moses strikes the rock, the water comes forth, and the place is named “the waters of Meribah.” In these stories not only is the same name given to two different places, and for the same reason, but the stories themselves are remarkably similar.

In fact, all of these doublets, and others not discussed here, overlap with the previous group, that is, narrative contradictions. For the double telling of a single event entails two competing historical claims about, at the very least, when that event happened. As we have seen, not only when, but also the char- acteristics of where, who, how, and why may vary from passage to passage, even when the central “what” remains the same.

Contradictions and doublets can be found both across pentateuchal texts, as described above, and within individual pericopes; that is, the same problems exist on both the macro level and the micro level. The standard example of this is the beginning of the flood story, in Genesis 6:17–7:5. In 6:17–22, God tells Noah that he is going to bring a flood and instructs him to bring into the ark two of each kind of animal; we are then told that “Noah did so; just as God had commanded him, so he did” (v. 22). In 7:1–5, Yahweh tells Noah that he is go- ing to bring a flood and instructs him to bring into the ark two of each unclean animal and seven pairs of every clean animal; we are then told that “Noah did just as Yahweh commanded him” (v. 5). The story thus presents the same events happening twice—God’s announcement of the flood, instructions about the animals, and the fulfillment of those instructions by Noah—which marks it as a doublet. The story also tells us that on the one hand, Noah is to bring two of every animal (and he does so), and on the other, that he is to bring two of every unclean and seven of every clean animal (and he does so)—a glaring contradiction.

Similarly, in Numbers 14, after the episode of the spies, Yahweh tells Moses that the first generation of the Exodus will die before reaching the promised land, all except for Caleb (Num 14:21–24). Immediately thereafter, he speaks again and says almost the same thing: the first generation of the Exodus will die before reaching the promised land, all except for Caleb and Joshua (vv. 29–35). Virtually the same message is delivered twice in a row—it is a doublet—but there is a significant distinction in the content, a disparity in precisely who is to survive—and it therefore also entails a contradiction.
The third category of narrative problems may be called discontinuities. In these cases, the natural course of events of a story is interrupted by what appears to be an unrelated narrative. In Exodus 24:1–2, Yahweh commands Moses to go up the mountain with Aaron, Nadab, Abihu, and seventy of the Israelite elders. They do so—but not until 24:9. In between, in vv. 3–8, Moses performs a cov- enant ceremony with the people on the basis of the laws in Exodus 20:19–23:33 that Yahweh gave to Moses on the mountain—the same mountain that Moses is told to go up in 24:1 before he has even come back down (in v. 3). In vv. 9–11, Moses and the others go up the mountain, as instructed in vv. 1–2; in v. 12, however, Moses is again instructed to ascend the mountain, even though he is already there.







 

joelr

Well-Known Member
No, it may have been understood by Plato and other religions, but it is definitely a redemption issue.
Redemption, salvation and such is a Hellenistic religious invention. All of the nations the Greeks invaded were Hellenized and their religions became Mystery religions, all having similar elements as Christianity which is a Jewish Hellenized mystery religion.

Basic Mystery cult, common features:


- Individuals “initiated” into the mysteries, ritually and by teaching sworn secrets about the universe. Something about the cosmos one needed to be saved, secrets. Many secrets are now lost.


- purpose was to gain salvation in the afterlife


- all use baptism and communion(communal meals)


- fictive kinship “brotherhood”


From Petra Pakkanen, Interpreting Early Hellenistic Religion (1996)


- Four big trends in religion in the centuries leading up to Christianity


- Christianity conforms to all four


Four Trends -

- Syncretism: combining a foreign cult deity with Hellenistic elements. Christianity is a Jewish mystery religion.


- Henotheism: transforming / reinterpreting polytheism into monotheism. Judaism introduced monolatric concepts.


- Individualism: agricultural salvation cults retooled as personal salvation cults. Salvation of community changed into personal individual salvation in afterlife. All original agricultural salvation cults were retooled by the time Christianity arose.


- Cosmopolitianism: all races, cultures, classes admitted as equals, with fictive kinship (members are all brothers) you now “join” a religion rather than being born into it


and -

Savior deities, dying/rising, pre-Christian, Osiris, Adonis, Romulus, Zalmoxis, Inanna (oldest 1700 B.C., female deity resurrected in 3 days)
Yes, modern philosophers and revisionists subscribe to those positions.
Philosophers are of no import here. Revisionist are definitely not in this picture. If they are I don't know anything about them.
I'm talking about scholars, historians, comparative religion, archaeology, related to The Mediterranean region in Biblical times.
There was no critical historical field before modern times.
The first in Christianity -
"Raymond Edward Brown SS (May 22, 1928 – August 8, 1998) was an American Sulpician priest and prominent biblical scholar. He was regarded as a specialist concerning the hypothetical "Johannine community", which he speculated contributed to the authorship of the Gospel of John, and he also wrote influential studies on the birth and death of Jesus.
Brown was one of the first Catholic scholars in the United States to use the historical-critical method to study the Bible.[5]"
Historians do not preach to the general public so people generally don't know Christianity is as mythical as Greek myths unless you read scholars works.

Yes, all religions come from "in the beginning".
No I'm saying I personally knew a Muslim and a Hindu. The Muslim knew she was in the right religion because God spoke to her through her heart and guided her life. The Hindu also said Krishna was a personal friend, listened to her prayers, loved her, cared about her, gave her wisdom in difficult times, and spoke through feelings and emotions, put her in the right places at the right time. Too many things in her life prove beyond any doubt that Krishna is really there.
It's psychology, not a deity. Things that seem like coincidence happen to everyone, it's normal life. Doesn't matter who, Krishna, Jesus, Thor, the mind will create the feelings and confirmation bias will create the circumstance.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
In science, personal experiences mean nothing. They are not counted as evidence.

When did theology turn into science? Since when are believers meant to see as evidence only what science sees as evidence?
Different disciplines have their own ways of seeing evidence.
But neither I nor you are disciplines, we are humans and see whatever we want as evidence.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Redemption, salvation and such is a Hellenistic religious invention. All of the nations the Greeks invaded were Hellenized and their religions became Mystery religions, all having similar elements as Christianity which is a Jewish Hellenized mystery religion.
No... Genesis and the Psalms and many of the prophets were way before the Greek influence. Psalm 22 prophesied the Cross and others redemption way before the Greek Empire.



No I'm saying I personally knew a Muslim and a Hindu. The Muslim knew she was in the right religion because God spoke to her through her heart and guided her life. The Hindu also said Krishna was a personal friend, listened to her prayers, loved her, cared about her, gave her wisdom in difficult times, and spoke through feelings and emotions, put her in the right places at the right time. Too many things in her life prove beyond any doubt that Krishna is really there.
It's psychology, not a deity. Things that seem like coincidence happen to everyone, it's normal life. Doesn't matter who, Krishna, Jesus, Thor, the mind will create the feelings and confirmation bias will create the circumstance.
Yes... I know what people say...

What I find so interesting is how you try to flood a post with PhD (Post hole Diggers) to use the Appeal to Authority fallacy whereas my one liners above shows you are wrong. ;)
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
based on Dr Carrier's analysis

Here are the parallels between Mark’s Jesus and that of Jesus ben Ananias as found in Josephus’ writings:

...........................................

The odds of these coincidences arising by chance is quite small to say the least, so it appears Mark used this Jesus as a model for his own to serve some particular literary or theological purpose. In any case, we can see that Mark is writing fiction here, through and through.

Do you think that Jesus Ben Ananias got the prophecy supernaturally?
From what I read in Josephus it sounds like it.
Does that mean that supernatural prophecy is real?
Sounds like it.
If so, then why wouldn't the God of supernatural prophecy warn Jerusalem again and certainly remind anybody who was familiar with the prophecy of Jesus, about that prophecy and it's warning to flee from Jerusalem?
 
Top