Christians- How do you know Jesus and the Bible are true?

[mikkel_the_dane]

Can you give me an example?

Yeah, that is simple. The moment we get into whether some human behavior is right or wrong in politics, you do it in some cases. But that is not because you are a Christian. You are a human like most and defend your position as if it is absolutely true. But don't worry, I do it too from time to time.
What I mean is this. Like most people you project your right and wrong as universal. Some, if not most of us do it including some. if not most non-religious people.

 

[Kenny]

Yeah, that is simple. The moment we get into whether some human behavior is right or wrong in politics, you do it in some cases. But that is not because you are a Christian. You are a human like most and defend your position as if it is absolutely true. But don't worry, I do it too from time to time.
What I mean is this. Like most people you project your right and wrong as universal. Some, if not most of us do it including some. if not most non-religious people.

I see your generalities but nothing specific.

Right and wrong is right or wrong whether you insert it in politics or not.

I'm sure I haven't been perfect, but in light of my signature, if something is specific - yes I would say wrong is wrong. For an example, "Don't commit murder", I would say I would defend my biblical position as absolutely true.

Yet, I have equally gone to a murderer and said, "God loves you, forgave you through Jesus and will accept you into relationship if you commit your life to Him" - and also defend it as absolutely true. (I wouldn't put that into human law though).

So, unless you are more specific...

I have no problem with admitting I was wrong when I was wrong.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I see your generalities but nothing specific.

Right and wrong is right or wrong whether you insert it in politics or not.

I'm sure I haven't been perfect, but in light of my signature, if something is specific - yes I would say wrong is wrong. For an example, "Don't commit murder", I would say I would defend my biblical position as absolutely true.

Yet, I have equally gone to a murderer and said, "God loves you, forgave you through Jesus and will accept you into relationship if you commit your life to Him" - and also defend it as absolutely true. (I wouldn't put that into human law though).

So, unless you are more specific...

I have no problem with admitting I was wrong when I was wrong.

Okay, I remember one. The rest is blurred when it comes to US-citizens and guns, sex and OMG think of the children.
That you consul people to find a job based on the assumption that if they pull themselves together they can do.
That is an ideological idea, that is wrong, because it is too simple.

 

[Kenny]

Okay, I remember one. The rest is blurred when it comes to US-citizens and guns, sex and OMG think of the children.
That you consul people to find a job based on the assumption that if they pull themselves together they can do.
That is an ideological idea, that is wrong, because it is too simple.

Yes, I remember. But it was a little more extensive that just that.

1) The premise was that the man was lazy - not simply "if they pull themselves together"
2) I am fully supportive of helping a man retool himself, help him along the way, support a man if he is trying.
3) I am also fully supportive to supportive a person who is mentally challenged.

But it is still scriptural in that:

1) if a man does not work (implied that he can and nothing stops him) he should not eat.
2) Help you neighbor.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Yes, I remember. But it was a little more extensive that just that.

1) The premise was that the man was lazy - not simply "if they pull themselves together"
2) I am fully supportive of helping a man retool himself, help him along the way, support a man if he is trying.
3) I am also fully supportive to supportive a person who is mentally challenged.

But it is still scriptural in that:

1) if a man does not work (implied that he can and nothing stops him) he should not eat.
2) Help you neighbor.

Yes, but now it gets funny. How do you know if he is lazy?

 

[Kenny]

Yes, but now it gets funny. How do you know if he is lazy?

Well... one way is real simple. I believe Wisconsin tried it. If memory serves me correctly, the moment they said "If you want receive help, you must come in and if you are able to work, you will work for the State until you get a job... all of a sudden, the rolls were reduced substantially.

But it is pretty easy to find out. Have them come in and be evaluated. Have them look for jobs (with some sort to proof). If after one week they come back and say, "Well, I wanted to go find a job but I had a head ache the whole week and couldn't go. I didn't go to the doctor for a doctor's excuse because my foot started hurting... you can pretty much figure it out.

I remember as I was working for a grocery chain some people would come paying with food stamps. I would put their groceries in their nice Lincoln, Continental and then admire their $60 nail painting job. Do you think they really needed the food help?

Others would come in a car that was old with children. No frills and no painted nails,.

do you think it was pretty obvious who was milking the system? Or do you believe everyone is an honest worker?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Well... one way is real simple. I believe Wisconsin tried it. If memory serves me correctly, the moment they said "If you want receive help, you must come in and if you are able to work, you will work for the State until you get a job... all of a sudden, the rolls were reduced substantially.

But it is pretty easy to find out. Have them come in and be evaluated. Have them look for jobs (with some sort to proof). If after one week they come back and say, "Well, I wanted to go find a job but I had a head ache the whole week and couldn't go. I didn't go to the doctor for a doctor's excuse because my foot started hurting... you can pretty much figure it out.

I remember as I was working for a grocery chain some people would come paying with food stamps. I would put their groceries in their nice Lincoln, Continental and then admire their $60 nail painting job. Do you think they really needed the food help?

Others would come in a car that was old with children. No frills and no painted nails,.

do you think it was pretty obvious who was milking the system? Or do you believe everyone is an honest worker?

Well, there are 3 categories at play here. Which one are you overlooking?

 

[Kenny]

Well, there are 3 categories at play here. Which one are you overlooking?

Obviously, if we really want to get into it, there are many other factors. Did you want me to enumerate everything? Or can we deal in generalities and principles - like if a man IS lazy.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Obviously, if we really want to get into it, there are many other factors. Did you want me to enumerate everything? Or can we deal in generalities and principles - like if a man IS lazy.

Just the 3 general categories:
Those who where in some sense unlucky and need a "push".
Those who are lazy.
Those who are what?
You claim you know how to help people, but to help people you need to know that there is 3rd category and those can in general terms be described in as simple terms as the other 2. There is only one sentence needed, so you do what you clam you are. You are a counselor, who can help people, so you know the 3rd category.

 

[Kenny]

Just the 3 general categories:
Those who where in some sense unlucky and need a "push".
Those who are lazy.
Those who are what?
You claim you know how to help people, but to help people you need to know that there is 3rd category and those can in general terms be described in as simple terms as the other 2. There is only one sentence needed, so you do what you clam you are. You are a counselor, who can help people, so you know the 3rd category.

i did mention a third but there are many more...

Those physically handicapped.

Now, if you would like to put on the table another category, please do so and i can give my perspective.

There are those who also have psychological issues. You have those single moms that have babies... so rather than be combative, why don't you just express yourself with another category for discussion?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

i did mention a third but there are many more...

Those physically handicapped.

Now, if you would like to put on the table another category, please do so and i can give my perspective.

There are those who also have psychological issues. You have those single moms that have babies... so rather than be combative, why don't you just express yourself with another category for discussion?

So how do you spot those? How do you help those?
I am prepared to admit that I got you wrong. But so far your method lumps those into the category of lazy, because sometimes that is how they act.

 

[Kenny]

So how do you spot those? How do you help those?
I am prepared to admit that I got you wrong. But so far your method lumps those into the category of lazy, because sometimes that is how they act.

I think you have read into it.

Give me a case scenario and lets see if we have agreement.

 

[Brian2]

Why do you do that? Why use a black and white fallacy? Why not use the more appropriate term "wrong". Anyone that has seriously and honestly studied the Bible knows that it is wrong again and again.

I was probably reacting to you saying "just Church tradition", which sounds black and white concerning church tradition.
But fair enough, there are different traditions about just how various apostles died but the commonality seems to be that they were martyred.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I think you have read into it.

Give me a case scenario and lets see if we have agreement.

Well, if I recall right, if someone comes to your Church and ask for help, you give them a test for which they must show a certain behavior. And if they don't pass that test, they are "lazy".

 

[Kenny]

Well, if I recall right, if someone comes to your Church and ask for help, you give them a test for which they must show a certain behavior. And if they don't pass that test, they are "lazy".

That would be extrapolating what we shared in generalities and concepts and trying to apply it without love.

First, of course, we believe the best.

We have an organization that we are connected to (with 40 other churches) that helps people eat fish while they learn how to fish. We offer a holistic approach that includes professional counseling, budgeting, clothing and a host of other helps.

Take a family, for an instance, that we just helped - a family of 7 with a baby on the way and living in a van with no a/c. The husband currently had a job and had just come from Texas. They came because a business said they had a job for him and when he arrived, it got pulled from under his feet so he found a job at a hotel.

We offered him a room at the church next to a bathroom to sleep for about 5 months. Gave his some hot meals. Today he has a home for his family (thanks to working together with other churches).

Take person "B" (true story) who also came to our church. Here are some food vouchers and gas vouchers. Please connect with Love Inc of Brevard so we can walk through your situation (as we do with everyone). Two weeks later... "here are some food and gas vouchers - PLEASE go to Love Inc of Brevard so that we can walk through your issues" (Paraphrased - and very shortened)

Never went to Love Inc and didn't come back.

What would you do in each case and support what conclusions you would hold to?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

That would be extrapolating what we shared in generalities and concepts and trying to apply it without love.

First, of course, we believe the best.

We have an organization that we are connected to (with 40 other churches) that helps people eat fish while they learn how to fish. We offer a holistic approach that includes professional counseling, budgeting, clothing and a host of other helps.

Take a family, for an instance, that we just helped - a family of 7 with a baby on the way and living in a van with no a/c. The husband currently had a job and had just come from Texas. They came because a business said they had a job for him and when he arrived, it got pulled from under his feet so he found a job at a hotel.

We offered him a room at the church next to a bathroom to sleep for about 5 months. Gave his some hot meals. Today he has a home for his family (thanks to working together with other churches).

Take person "B" (true story) who also came to our church. Here are some food vouchers and gas vouchers. Please connect with Love Inc of Brevard so we can walk through your situation (as we do with everyone). Two weeks later... "here are some food and gas vouchers - PLEASE go to Love Inc of Brevard so that we can walk through your issues" (Paraphrased - and very shortened)

Never went to Love Inc and didn't come back.

What would you do in each case and support what conclusions you would hold to?

What does Love Inc of Brevard do?
Never mind, I looked it up.
Yes, I get your system now.
Well, we left that way to do it many years ago in Denmark.

Your system has plusses and minuses. So with the Danish system. The difference is that we don't include God anymore. That is personal and we do it in a secular sense.
So I was right in that you can't help other people without making it about your God. Where as I have learned to do it in a secular sense.
And which is objectively better, I don't know in the end.

 

[Madmogwai]

Christians today have never met Jesus physically yet believe in Him. Why?

If you say you believe in Christ because of the Bible then how do you know the Bible is true?

How do you know Christ and the Bible are true?

What makes you so sure?

Have you seen the Dark side of the moon with your own eyes.
How do you know it exists, is it even Dark.

 

[Kenny]

What does Love Inc of Brevard do?
Never mind, I looked it up.
Yes, I get your system now.
Well, we left that way to do it many years ago in Denmark.

Your system has plusses and minuses. So with the Danish system. The difference is that we don't include God anymore. That is personal and we do it in a secular sense.
So I was right in that you can't help other people without making it about your God. Where as I have learned to do it in a secular sense.
And which is objectively better, I don't know in the end.

No... actually you are wrong.

It isn't a requirement to be religious. We help because we help. Let's just say neither is wrong but rather they are just different

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Have you seen the Dark side of the moon with your own eyes.
How do you know it exists, is it even Dark.

Yeah, I do God as my Mother differently than He is our Lord.
So what has that to do with the Dark side of moon and that it is Dark?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

No... actually you are wrong.

It isn't a requirement to be religious. We help because we help. Let's just say neither is wrong but rather just different

The 12 month program involved religion. I have that for their home page. So why do that, is religion is not relevant?