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Christians- How do you know Jesus and the Bible are true?

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Let me ask you a question.... What is your viewpoint of Romans 10:8-13? Your interpretation?
The "Word", as you well know, is often a reference to the teachings, and in this case it would involve much of what would become the Tanakh. Obviously, this approach carried over to the NT and the Church as time went on.

Thus, one could read this on their own, which I obviously do recommend, or one could pay attention at services and listen to the scriptural readings, or to do both which, imo, is preferable. We should remember that throughout much of human history, most people could not read nor write, and most didn't have Bibles. Were they any less Christian?

Is your interpretation different?

BTW, hope all is well with you & yours.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
It is known that Tel Aviv university has a Biblical minimalist archaeological dept. They produce such articles as this:

This is completely at odds with the Bible which talks of domesticated camels at the time of Abraham (about 2000 BC).
So this Tel Aviv article would be enough to convince some people about domesticated camels, but there is plenty of evidence for domesticated camels before 1000BC so how is it even possible for Tel Aviv to publish such nonsense?
The Bible is "at odds" ( is flat out wrong)
about this a whole lot more than just camels.

Amusingly, it's those who dont actually
study science who are ignoring all (but
the bible interpretation they like) who
are performing the acts of intellectual
dishonesty you are claiming against others.
 
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Audie

Veteran Member
It is known that Tel Aviv university has a Biblical minimalist archaeological dept. They produce such articles as tshis:

This is completely at odds with the Bible which talks of domesticated camels at the time of Abraham (about 2000 BC).
So this Tel Aviv article would be enough to convince some people about domesticated camels, but there is plenty of evidence for domesticated camels before 1000BC so how is it even possible for Tel Aviv to publish such nonsense?
Tel Aviv U publishes nonsense by your figuring.
And its "known" that they are " minimalists" whose
work therefore worthless.

And you know more than anyone there.

How? By looking up something from
"Biblical Research Associates".


So I looked them up too.
Here's their take on " Noah's Ark".

How they can publish and promote such lying
garbage is between them, and such shreds of conscience
as they may have.

How you can think thats a more authoritative source on
anything than one of thevworlds great universities
is something for you to work out.

No doubt facing up to a complete failure of intellectual
integrity will be difficult, probably impossible.
 
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Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
The "Word", as you well know, is often a reference to the teachings, and in this case it would involve much of what would become the Tanakh. Obviously, this approach carried over to the NT and the Church as time went on.

Thus, one could read this on their own, which I obviously do recommend, or one could pay attention at services and listen to the scriptural readings, or to do both which, imo, is preferable. We should remember that throughout much of human history, most people could not read nor write, and most didn't have Bibles. Were they any less Christian?

Is your interpretation different?

BTW, hope all is well with you & yours.
We are doing well! The memorial service for my brother is over and a weight was lifted off as I was presiding over it.

It isn't whether one is less or more of a Christian.

Let me give you a great example:

Romans 10:8-10 New King James Version​

8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that (B)if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Read full chapter
13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

I had a person across from my desk of the Catholic persuasion that was there selling me his product. After he gave his presentation and a conclusion was made I said, "I listened to your presentation and now I would like you to listen to mine"... which he did.

For me, this is quite black and white... when one believes on Jesus Christ as Lord and His resurrection - one is "saved" and united with God through Christ.

He was very much a Christian in faith and in his walk! I asked him, "Have you every confessed Jesus as your Lord and accepted Him in your hear?"

His emphatic reply, "Every morning!"

"So what does verse 13 say to you?" was my followup question...

His eyes opened up, like a lightbulb that turned on as he exclaimed with joy, "I'M SAVED". Like a weight of doubt was lifted up.

It isn't that he was less of a Christian as he was already a committed Christian but the light of the word gave him an illumination that he had never had. Personally, I believe he left knowing that he was a child of God.

I think that is the basic difference. The opening of the Bible just gives understanding. It can be done from the pulpit too, but how many times did I hear that from my attending the Catholic Mass? I can't say I ever did. So, my personal viewpoint is that many people are united through Christ but don't understand the import and impact of it.
 

Sargonski

Well-Known Member
Archaeology / ancient history is intrinsically
interesting.
I have no particular interest in what
any one particular tribe did in the middle east.

I'd be fine if the whole middle east never existed.

The history of the Hebrews is very overrated and overstudied, imo.

Are we good with my reference to intellectual integrity?

I would agree the history of the Hebrews is greatly over-rated -- and add an order of magnitude - as are their religious beliefs .. and customs

The "Fundamentalists Evangelical - Pentecostals .. and that ilk .. are horribly intellectually dishonest .. and just dishonest in general .. engaging major cult based deception and self deception. That is just a given.. For example --- no other denomination or significant sect --- believes the bible is 100% God Breathed and without error. Only the Fundi's are able to engate in that much self deception and denial of the obvious .. for example Should Children be killed for the sins of the Parents .. or Should we have a rule stating Children should not be killed for the sins of the Parents.

I need to know the answer because there are some very bad Parents out there who's offspring we need to know with what to do.., and I want to follow God's Law ... Help me .. what should I do Biblical Scholar .. Tell me what the Holy Text Recommends?

Unfortunately - The Biblical Scholar with Integrity will come back with an apology rather than an answer .. as the Text commands Both .. 1) Children are to be killed for the Sins of Their Parents -- and others for that matter . 2) Do not kill Children for the Sins of the Parents

So . .. what is the "God Breathed" command here .. because unless we want to believe that YHWH is an irrational idiotic trickster God --- God could not have breathed both.

and there are hundreds of examples like this .. along with known Edits .. additions (like the long ending of Mark) interpolation .. such that you can take an older Bible and it will say something completely different than a modern Bible .. begging again the question .. which version is God Breathed.. Ask any Fundi on the site the question .. and they can not answer.. When they tell you the Bible is 100% God Breathed .. ask them Which one .. the KJV -- the MT - the LXX -- 4DeutQ

As soon as you pick one .. your cornboggled -- as they say different things --- taking a massive amount of self delusion and intellectual dishonesty to ignore.

I talk about these things not because the same is true for Creationist silliness-- which fails horribly to science and rational thought .. but because these things fail intrinsicly .. the Bible Fails itself no science degree needed to show that it is a deeply flawed document .. one subjected to thousands of years of artistic licence ... the fingerprints of Man all over the painting.
I have probably a more Biblical view of Israel and who they were and where they came from.
I don't know much about the Bronze Age collapse but have heard Egyptologist David Rohl talk about it.
He would like to reform Egyptian chronology quite a bit. I found this video about him which you may be interested in.

I am familiar with all the various ideas relating to the exodus .. and would really like to believe an earlier dating ..the Semetic peoples "Hyksos" taking over Egypt for a short time .. the Semetic Hebrew people occupying more area in the region .. then when the Egyptians take back power .. persecution begins .. after many years .. a mass Exodus .. of not just Slaves . but others who have settled in the region. but leaving as early as 1400 is really tough to make fit .. .. We know with a great deal of certainty the general time of David taking Jerusalem ~ 1000 BC .. putting it back to 1100 or 1200 BC is highly probematic..

Either way though --- whether 1400 or 1300 BC - there was a group of Nomadic Tribes which come together -- take over a bunch of cities and form a Nation - In all likelihood many of these folks were slaves/persecuted peoples who bolted out of Egypt ... existed on the margins for many decades "40 years wandering in the desert" .. living the life of a Nomad 40 years at least .... and when society starts collapsing due to the Calamity or number of Calamities which caused the Bronze Age Collapse .. took advantage and formed a Nation.

Not sure what "Biblical view" you are referring to as .. this all fits in with the Biblical view .. sans the ridiculous literalism -- one needs to give a little leeway for these stories and myths being passed down orally through the centuries .. There were not Millions of people who left in one group and managed to survive in the actual desert on manna falling from heaven.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
It isn't that he was less of a Christian as he was already a committed Christian but the light of the word gave him an illumination that he had never had. Personally, I believe he left knowing that he was a child of God.
That "light" can take different forms, thus is not monolithic. What brought me back wasn't the scriptures per se as you well know.

I long have felt that maybe the little old lady who doesn't read well and maybe has no clue what "theology" even is may sometimes be much more of a follower of Jesus than the theologian and the pastor because her faith is simple = she believes in Jesus, period. [pardon me for using a stereotype of little old ladies as I'm a little old man, OK?]
The opening of the Bible just gives understanding. It can be done from the pulpit too, but how many times did I hear that from my attending the Catholic Mass?
It's mentioned many times as my church and always has. Many bring their missal with them, which has the readings and clarifications within them. Some hymnals also include this.

During a weekend mass, there are three main readings that rotate on a three-year cycle, thus the pastor cannot pick & choose what to cover during his homily that must include the Gospel reading and at least one of the other readings. Then there's the Psalms said at every mass. On weekday masses, additional readings are used.

I hate to say this but your post that I first responded to was all too similar to the religious bigotry I was brought up in with my fundamentalist church, and I was appalled by that even when I was a teenager. We heard constantly about the "evils" of the Catholic Church and the clergy, and some anti-Catholic books were available for purchase.

Ken, you know I don't go for a "one size fits all" approach on this, thus not being a Catholic simply carries no negative connotation with me. I have never stated nor implied you should be Catholic, and I never will.

Again, I refer to Jesus' two answers when he was asked what the greatest Commandment is, and I think I'll stick with what he said because it seems like good advice.

Shalom
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I would agree the history of the Hebrews is greatly over-rated -- and add an order of magnitude - as are their religious beliefs .. and customs

The "Fundamentalists Evangelical - Pentecostals .. and that ilk .. are horribly intellectually dishonest .. and just dishonest in general .. engaging major cult based deception and self deception. That is just a given.. For example --- no other denomination or significant sect --- believes the bible is 100% God Breathed and without error. Only the Fundi's are able to engate in that much self deception and denial of the obvious .. for example Should Children be killed for the sins of the Parents .. or Should we have a rule stating Children should not be killed for the sins of the Parents.

I need to know the answer because there are some very bad Parents out there who's offspring we need to know with what to do.., and I want to follow God's Law ... Help me .. what should I do Biblical Scholar .. Tell me what the Holy Text Recommends?

Unfortunately - The Biblical Scholar with Integrity will come back with an apology rather than an answer .. as the Text commands Both .. 1) Children are to be killed for the Sins of Their Parents -- and others for that matter . 2) Do not kill Children for the Sins of the Parents

So . .. what is the "God Breathed" command here .. because unless we want to believe that YHWH is an irrational idiotic trickster God --- God could not have breathed both.

and there are hundreds of examples like this .. along with known Edits .. additions (like the long ending of Mark) interpolation .. such that you can take an older Bible and it will say something completely different than a modern Bible .. begging again the question .. which version is God Breathed.. Ask any Fundi on the site the question .. and they can not answer.. When they tell you the Bible is 100% God Breathed .. ask them Which one .. the KJV -- the MT - the LXX -- 4DeutQ

As soon as you pick one .. your cornboggled -- as they say different things --- taking a massive amount of self delusion and intellectual dishonesty to ignore.

I talk about these things not because the same is true for Creationist silliness-- which fails horribly to science and rational thought .. but because these things fail intrinsicly .. the Bible Fails itself no science degree needed to show that it is a deeply flawed document .. one subjected to thousands of years of artistic licence ... the fingerprints of Man all over the painting.


I am familiar with all the various ideas relating to the exodus .. and would really like to believe an earlier dating ..the Semetic peoples "Hyksos" taking over Egypt for a short time .. the Semetic Hebrew people occupying more area in the region .. then when the Egyptians take back power .. persecution begins .. after many years .. a mass Exodus .. of not just Slaves . but others who have settled in the region. but leaving as early as 1400 is really tough to make fit .. .. We know with a great deal of certainty the general time of David taking Jerusalem ~ 1000 BC .. putting it back to 1100 or 1200 BC is highly probematic..

Either way though --- whether 1400 or 1300 BC - there was a group of Nomadic Tribes which come together -- take over a bunch of cities and form a Nation - In all likelihood many of these folks were slaves/persecuted peoples who bolted out of Egypt ... existed on the margins for many decades "40 years wandering in the desert" .. living the life of a Nomad 40 years at least .... and when society starts collapsing due to the Calamity or number of Calamities which caused the Bronze Age Collapse .. took advantage and formed a Nation.

Not sure what "Biblical view" you are referring to as .. this all fits in with the Biblical view .. sans the ridiculous literalism -- one needs to give a little leeway for these stories and myths being passed down orally through the centuries .. There were not Millions of people who left in one group and managed to survive in the actual desert on manna falling from heaven.
The Gordion knot solution is not believing the
God part.

Without God in the stories, they are far easier to
understand.
I'd wager I understand the bible better than any Believer
does, for lo, they make the colossal fundamental error
of believing that "in the beginning god".

Though imo, its not worth the effort of reading it.
 

Sargonski

Well-Known Member
The Gordion knot solution is not believing the
God part.

Without God in the stories, they are far easier to
understand.

I'd wager I understand the bible better than any Believer
does, for lo, they make the colossal fundamental error
of believing that "in the beginning god".

Though imo, its not worth the effort of reading it.

That is because no rational God would do such things .. would you tell me what an all powerfull - all knowing - all Seeing entity .. that is the creator of everything and in fact is everything (the way these folks have God envisioned) .. has to be jealous of ?

YHWH is depicted as this xenophobic flip flopping irrational God -- a genocidal maniac with the most petty and nasty of human characteristics .. who regrets the creation of humans and thinks they are a worthless creation .. uttlerly without merit .. regrets his mistake.

So a number of decades after setting this experiment in Motion -- YHWH decides to show up and check in on things .. and what does she think of her latest experiment .. labeled Planet earth.

Gensis 6 - 5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created"

Well then .. Whats the point of Robbery when nothing is worth taking mate ? Just ditch the failed experiment .. best plan..

But then .. God Gets a "Brilliant idea" -- why don't we leave a few of the weeds in the garden -- with the idea the place wont eventually turn into a weed infestation .. Really ? come on now God .. Give head a shake.. What do you think will happen -- we already ran this experiment once .. you said yourself "ONLY EVIL ALL The Time"


And of course that is exactly what happens .. but then .. a few thousand years later .. this Creator God decides to intervene and adopt a worthless group of humans .. hoping he can get their devotion .. which completely fails .. the humans continue to be worthless .. every thought only evil all of the time (which is why much of the story is a really good read ! .. much better than the NT .. far more entertaining) ..

God then gets all Pissy and makes nasty things happen to this worthless group .. often using other worthless groups of humans .. until finally abandoning them .. and that is how the story ends.. The "Whore of Babylon" takes over .. wins the Day .. Marduk defeats YHWH .. and the party is over.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
That is because no rational God would do such things .. would you tell me what an all powerfull - all knowing - all Seeing entity .. that is the creator of everything and in fact is everything (the way these folks have God envisioned) .. has to be jealous of ?

YHWH is depicted as this xenophobic flip flopping irrational God -- a genocidal maniac with the most petty and nasty of human characteristics .. who regrets the creation of humans and thinks they are a worthless creation .. uttlerly without merit .. regrets his mistake.

So a number of decades after setting this experiment in Motion -- YHWH decides to show up and check in on things .. and what does she think of her latest experiment .. labeled Planet earth.

Gensis 6 - 5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created"

Well then .. Whats the point of Robbery when nothing is worth taking mate ? Just ditch the failed experiment .. best plan..

But then .. God Gets a "Brilliant idea" -- why don't we leave a few of the weeds in the garden -- with the idea the place wont eventually turn into a weed infestation .. Really ? come on now God .. Give head a shake.. What do you think will happen -- we already ran this experiment once .. you said yourself "ONLY EVIL ALL The Time"


And of course that is exactly what happens .. but then .. a few thousand years later .. this Creator God decides to intervene and adopt a worthless group of humans .. hoping he can get their devotion .. which completely fails .. the humans continue to be worthless .. every thought only evil all of the time (which is why much of the story is a really good read ! .. much better than the NT .. far more entertaining) ..

God then gets all Pissy and makes nasty things happen to this worthless group .. often using other worthless groups of humans .. until finally abandoning them .. and that is how the story ends.. The "Whore of Babylon" takes over .. wins the Day .. Marduk defeats YHWH .. and the party is over.
The whole story is very unbelievable to me.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
That "light" can take different forms, thus is not monolithic. What brought me back wasn't the scriptures per se as you well know.

I long have felt that maybe the little old lady who doesn't read well and maybe has no clue what "theology" even is may sometimes be much more of a follower of Jesus than the theologian and the pastor because her faith is simple = she believes in Jesus, period. [pardon me for using a stereotype of little old ladies as I'm a little old man, OK?]


Metis, I don't disagree with you at all. I'm not sure if I am making my point clear. Additionally, the American Catholic Church is much different that Venezuelan Catholic Churches. Churches change. I've noticed that in many American Catholic churches they no longe have statues displayed (don't know why - just noticing the change).


It's mentioned many times as my church and always has. Many bring their missal with them, which has the readings and clarifications within them. Some hymnals also include this.

During a weekend mass, there are three main readings that rotate on a three-year cycle, thus the pastor cannot pick & choose what to cover during his homily that must include the Gospel reading and at least one of the other readings. Then there's the Psalms said at every mass. On weekday masses, additional readings are used.

I hate to say this but your post that I first responded to was all too similar to the religious bigotry I was brought up in with my fundamentalist church, and I was appalled by that even when I was a teenager. We heard constantly about the "evils" of the Catholic Church and the clergy, and some anti-Catholic books were available for purchase.

Ken, you know I don't go for a "one size fits all" approach on this, thus not being a Catholic simply carries no negative connotation with me. I have never stated nor implied you should be Catholic, and I never will.

Again, I refer to Jesus' two answers when he was asked what the greatest Commandment is, and I think I'll stick with what he said because it seems like good advice.

Shalom

Please don't mix past experience with what I am saying. Please note that I said that Catholic person I spoke to was very much saved. A true Christian. I am not speaking of "evils"... as I am not even intimating that. There are things in Protestant Churches that need change too. Just saying there are differences. I have attended Catholic Mass on multiple occasion since my conversion and know the presence of God is there.
 
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Brian2

Veteran Member
The Bible is "at odds" ( is flat out wrong)
about this a whole lot more than just camels.

Amusingly, it's those who dont actually
study science who are ignoring all (but
the bible interpretation they like) who
are performing the acts of intellectual
dishonesty you are claiming against others.

I should have realised that you were not really interested and only wanted to do the same as Tel Aviv University does with the Bible.
I am not a scientist but can see what scientists say:
From this site for example: An Interview With Israel Finkelstein - Apologetics Press
The minimalists’ approach, which Finkelstein’s resembles closely, is decried by many scholars, both theistic and atheistic. An example of the former is Kenneth Kitchen, one of the world’s foremost Egyptologists. In his book On the Reliability of the Old Testament, he spends considerable time examining the biblical minimalists and their history in the last two hundred years of biblical scholarship (2003, pp. 449-500). Specifically of Finkelstein’s book The Bible Unearthed (coauthored by Neil Asher Silberman), he says, “[A] careful critical perusal of this work—which certainly has much to say about both archaeology and the biblical writings—reveals that we are dealing very largely with a work of imaginative fiction, not a serious or reliable account of the subject” (p. 464). Concerning their treatment of the patriarchal period, which the two describe as a virtual fiction, Kitchen comments, “our two friends are utterly out of their depth, hopelessly misinformed, and totally misleading” (p. 465). Finkelstein’s and Silberman’s discussion of the exodus prompts Kitchen to remark, “Their treatment of the exodus is among the most factually ignorant and misleading that this writer has ever read” (p. 466).

I can also read the evidence for myself and come to a similar conclusion. I don't need to be a scientist to make up my mind, and when scientists disagree so dramatically us poor lay people have to make up our own minds, and that means making up our minds about scholars and groups of scholars as well as topics.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I should have realised that you were not really interested and only wanted to do the same as Tel Aviv University does with the Bible.
I am not a scientist but can see what scientists say:
From this site for example: An Interview With Israel Finkelstein - Apologetics Press
The minimalists’ approach, which Finkelstein’s resembles closely, is decried by many scholars, both theistic and atheistic. An example of the former is Kenneth Kitchen, one of the world’s foremost Egyptologists. In his book On the Reli thability of the Old Testament, he spends considerable time examining the biblical minimalists and their history in the last two hundred years of biblical scholarship (2003, pp. 449-500). Specifically of Finkelstein’s book The Bible Unearthed (coauthored by Neil Asher Silberman), he says, “[A] careful critical perusal of this work—which certainly has much to say about both archaeology and the biblical writings—reveals that we are dealing very largely with a work of imaginative fiction, not a serious or reliable account of the subject” (p. 464). Concerning their treatment of the patriarchal period, which the two describe as a virtual fiction, Kitchen comments, “our two friends are utterly out of their depth, hopelessly misinformed, and totally misleading” (p. 465). Finkelstein’s and Silberman’s discussion of the exodus prompts Kitchen to remark, “Their treatment of the exodus is among the most factually ignorant and misleading that this writer has ever read” (p. 466).

I can also read the evidence for myself and come to a similar conclusion. I don't need to be a scientist to make up my mind, and when scientists disagree so dramatically us poor lay people have to make up our own minds, and that means making up our minds about scholars and groups of scholars as well as topics.
Now, painting me with your brush is
just a weird kind of tu quoque.

IF you were interested in honest and
honourable inquiry, you would go to
a lying humbug outfit like that biblical
research associates or whatever it was.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Tel Aviv U publishes nonsense by your figuring.
And its "known" that they are " minimalists" whose
work therefore worthless.

And you know more than anyone there.

How? By looking up something from
"Biblical Research Associates".


So I looked them up too.
Here's their take on " Noah's Ark".

So you have found out about camels and the standard of work of Tel Aviv University by looking at the Associates for Biblical Research views on Noah's Flood.

I guess the difference between the Associates for Biblical Research and Tel Aviv is that ABR is open about itself and what it does and where it is coming from and Tel Aviv wants to pretend to speak for archaeology.

How they can publish and promote such lying
garbage is between them, and such shreds of conscience
as they may have.

How you can think thats a more authoritative source on
anything than one of thevworlds great universities
is something for you to work out.

No doubt facing up to a complete failure of intellectual
integrity will be difficult, probably impossible.

If you notice that the Tel Aviv archaeologists go straight from carbon dating of some camels being used to attacking the historicity of Genesis and when it was written or compiled.
It is pretty plain however that carbon dating some bones somewhere in Israel does not tell us about Genesis and whether Abraham had camels or if camels passed through on their way to other places.
If we look at the Genesis accounts we can see that Abraham got camels from Egypt and that it is the Ishmaelites who used camels in their trading trips.

Genesis 12:14 When Abram came to Egypt, the Egyptians saw that Sarai was a very beautiful woman. 15 And when Pharaoh’s officials saw her, they praised her to Pharaoh, and she was taken into his palace. 16 He treated Abram well for her sake, and Abram acquired sheep and cattle, male and female donkeys, male and female servants, and camels.
Gen 37:25 Then, just as they were sitting down to eat, they looked up and saw a caravan of camels in the distance coming toward them. It was a group of Ishmaelite traders taking a load of gum, balm, and aromatic resin from Gilead down to Egypt.

It is also plain that camels were domesticated in the Middle East area a long time before 1000 BC.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
So you have found out about camels and the standard of work of Tel Aviv University by looking at the Associates for Biblical Research views on Noah's Flood.

I guess the difference between the Associates for Biblical Research and Tel Aviv is that ABR is open about itself and what it does and where it is coming from and Tel Aviv wants to pretend to speak for archaeology.



If you notice that the Tel Aviv archaeologists go straight from carbon dating of some camels being used to attacking the historicity of Genesis and when it was written or compiled.
It is pretty plain however that carbon dating some bones somewhere in Israel does not tell us about Genesis and whether Abraham had camels or if camels passed through on their way to other places.
If we look at the Genesis accounts we can see that Abraham got camels from Egypt and that it is the Ishmaelites who used camels in their trading trips.

Genesis 12:14 When Abram came to Egypt, the Egyptians saw that Sarai was a very beautiful woman. 15 And when Pharaoh’s officials saw her, they praised her to Pharaoh, and she was taken into his palace. 16 He treated Abram well for her sake, and Abram acquired sheep and cattle, male and female donkeys, male and female servants, and camels.
Gen 37:25 Then, just as they were sitting down to eat, they looked up and saw a caravan of camels in the distance coming toward them. It was a group of Ishmaelite traders taking a load of gum, balm, and aromatic resin from Gilead down to Egypt.

It is also plain that camels were domesticated in the Middle East area a long time before 1000 BC.
Uh no.
I quickly found that your
" Bible associates" whatever
Is garbage.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
There is archaeological evidence for the truth of Israel being in Egypt and conquering Canaan. That's just the fact.

We have William Dever and Joel Baden giving the consensus opinion, both I linked to. The only evidence you sourced isn't yet evidence. So are you now just straight up lying or do you have evidence.
I don't think confirmation of supernatural events has anything to do with it, we are talking about the basic history of Israel being in Egypt and conquering Canaan around 1400BC and settling there in the cities and villages they conquered.
There is no evidence ever of armed conflict in Canaan.

THE ORIGINS OF ISRAEL​

Q: What have archeologists learned from these settlements about the early Israelites? Are there signs that the Israelites came in conquest, taking over the land from Canaanites?

Dever: The settlements were founded not on the ruins of destroyed Canaanite towns but rather on bedrock or on virgin soil. There was no evidence of armed conflict in most of these sites. Archeologists also have discovered that most of the large Canaanite towns that were supposedly destroyed by invading Israelites were either not destroyed at all or destroyed by "Sea People"—Philistines, or others.

So gradually the old conquest model [based on the accounts of Joshua's conquests in the Bible] began to lose favor amongst scholars. Many scholars now think that most of the early Israelites were originally Canaanites, displaced Canaanites, displaced from the lowlands, from the river valleys, displaced geographically and then displaced ideologically.


There seems to be a spectrum of archaeological views but the basic position on the Exodus is early or late, conquest from Egypt or conquest from inside.
Once you reject the evidence for an early conquest then it is either a late one or an inside job. Many that say a late conquest or inside job are not extreme minimalists but they exist and seem to be instrumental in fighting any archaeological evidence for an early conquest.
Archaeologist Carol Meyers, Exodus is a foundation myth. Maybe a few people came from Egypt and joined the Israelites and those stories became Exodus.

Remembering the Exodus​

So even though most of the early Israelites had not themselves made the exodus from Egypt, they adopt this story as part of their heritage.​

Yes. While very few Israelites may have actually made the trek across Sinai, it becomes the national story of all Israelites and is celebrated in all kinds of ways. Their agricultural festivals become celebrations of freedom, for instance. Many aspects of a new culture emerge and are linked with the "memories" of exodus.

The people who made the exodus from Egypt remember the experience, relive it, recreate it in rituals. They pass their rituals on to others, to future generations and to other people. We do this in our own American lives: Very few of us have ancestors who came over on the Mayflower, and yet that story has become part of our national story.



Yes I jumped the gun about the curse tablet and people have been jumping at me to say it is BS, but that is jumping the gun in the opposite direction.
All archaeologists know that early archaeology in ANE was to show the Bible is true yes. They mistakes were made and wrong sites identified and etc and archaeologists started to not trust the Bible record.
That trust was continued with by those who believed the record and they have shown that the trust was warranted, but others still do not trust the record and prefer the mistakes and the picture built up with those mistakes, the re writing of the Biblical record even when it can be shown to be true.
It cannot. The first book, Genesis is a re-write of Mesopotamian flood and creation myths.
David and Isaiah are forgeries and the NT is all syncretism.

PROVING THE BIBLE​

Q: Have biblical archeologists traditionally tried to find evidence that events in the Bible really happened?

William Dever: From the beginnings of what we call biblical archeology, perhaps 150 years ago, scholars, mostly western scholars, have attempted to use archeological data to prove the Bible. And for a long time it was thought to work. [William Foxwell] Albright, the great father of our discipline, often spoke of the "archeological revolution." Well, the revolution has come but not in the way that Albright thought. The truth of the matter today is that archeology raises more questions about the historicity of the Hebrew Bible and even the New Testament than it provides answers, and that's very disturbing to some people.



Yes theories of Israel origins have been developed using Documentary Hypothesis ideas and by not trusting the Biblical narrative and thinking that there should be evidence of Israel in Canaan when the Bible tells us that they lived in the places they conquered, or thinking that the idols found indicate lack of monotheism when that is exactly what the text tells us. There were no statues of YHWH, that was forbiden but Israel worshipped idols anyway. So the text is rejected and the theory is that there was no monotheism until after the exile or something.
Because the vast majority of temples found has uncovered thousands of goddess figurines. The Documentary Hypothesis has nothing to do with origins, it has to do with who wrote scripture and when.
The text does not "exactly" tell you most people worshipped a consort of Yahweh. Genesis is a myth, Exodus is a foundation myth, the kingdom was much more small scale and no supernatural aspects can ever be proven. This is just one of the thousands of cultural myths.

Proverbs uses wisdom found in Egyptian and Mesopotamian sites, meaning it isn't from a God, it's created by people.





I think I have given you archaeological evidence in our discussions.
You have not. Just the one where zero evidence has been released.
There is an interview with the worlds most prolific Biblical archaeologist right heree -
you would think you would read it and understand. But you know it doesn't match your beliefs so you look elsewhere. This is not how one finds truth, this is how one uses confirmation bias to find only things that re-enforce an already formed belief system. Having nothing to do with what is actually true.
Dever is explaining archaeology cannot prove Biblical narratives?


In most of what you post it is the opinions of historians as if those opinions are all that matters and is the following of evidence.
Why yes, actually, it's always based on evidence. I constantly demonstrate this and you continue to tap dance around obvious facts.
Historians only go by evidence.
You might as well say the same about science.
There is no evidence of anything supernatural. There is archaeological evidence that the Biblical narrative is syncretic mythology mixed with some history.
The textual evidence is massive that it's typical syncretic mythology.
What else is there?


I look for evidence to confirm my faith and I would say that you do the same to confirm your beliefs.
No, you get this wrong over and over. I have ideas that I suspect are true but I want to know what is actually true. If there is a God who loves blood sacrifice I want to know. I use evidence to form my beliefs. I thought at least there would be some spiritual mysteries in Eastern religions, but I wait to see what the actual evidence is. Not what a Hindu tells me her grandmother swears she saw when she was 9. If you want true beliefs you need a sound methodology, using empirical evidence to test those beliefs and be able to let go when proven wrong. Otherwise you will never know anything that is true.

What are you expecting demons or people to teach murder and rape and adultery and stealing etc in their religions?
First of all demons are not real. That is something to scare small children into going to bed, not to form a worldview on.

But yes, are demons not supposed to encourage people to do bad subliminally? Not lay out rules for a kind and compassionate life?
Even the Bible doesn't say set slaves free. Here is a free tip. PEOPLE wrote this. PEOPLE wrote and invented the gospels.


Don't confuse truth with falsehood or knowingly conceal the truth. 2:42
  1. Be good to parents, relatives, orphans, and the needy. Speak kindly and pay the poor-due. 2:83
  2. If you believe it, prove it. (A good rule, but does it apply to Muslims, too?) 2:111
  3. The Jews say the Christians are wrong, and vice versa. Yet they both believe in the Scriptures. 2:113
  4. Give of your wealth to family, relatives, and the needy. Set slaves free. 2:177
  5. Do not fight wars of aggression. (Does this apply only during Ramadan?) 2:190
  6. "Do good." 2:195
  7. Spend your money for good: to help your parents, your family, orphans, wayfarers, and the needy. 2:215
  8. Help orphans. 2:220
  9. "Make not Allah, by your oaths, a hindrance to ... making peace among mankind." 2:224
  10. "There is no compulsion in religion." (But see the next verse which says that disbelievers will burn forever in Hell.) 2:256
  11. Pay the poor-due. , , 2:277
  12. "If the debtor is in straitened circumstances, then (let there be) postponement to (the time of) ease." 2:280
  13. Don't argue about things that you know nothing about. 3:66
  14. Feed and clothe the needy. Set a slave free. 5:89"
  15. Do good to parents, don't kill your children or other living things unnecessarily. 6:151
  16. Pay the poor-due. 7:156
  17. Be kind and forgiving toward others. 7:199
  18. And if they incline to peace, incline thou also to it. 8:61-Quran
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
I don't expect "true believers" to ever give in to evidence that is contrary to their beliefs. Their whole world is built around certain beliefs and interpretations. If those are shown to be false, what are they left with?

What's interesting is how true believers in any religion try and argue against the evidence that goes against the things they believe are true.
Right, that is what apologetics are, an entire field created to dance around issues and patch them up. Making up or ignoring troubling history is completely acceptable.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
You are demonstrating it is incorrect by using only those documents that support your position while ignoring the oldest and other texts that say otherwise

Where did I ignore the oldest? Please explain how Rabbi Tovia Singer is incorrect about the scripture from his religion he has studies since a young boy? Why you think it's fine to come in and change an established religion with its own language and experts in that language and tell them where they are wrong, and do it without evidence???????? Is beyond arrogant.

Rabbi Tovia Singer -
The Dead Sea Scroll version of the Psalm has kaari, but some Xians think it is kaaru because the yod is longer than normal and can be mistaken for a vav.

But here lies the problem: kaaru is NOT a word. There is no such word in Hebrew ancient or modern. Karu is a word -- but that isn't what is in the Dead Sea Scrolls or in any other Hebrew copy of the Psalm.

Ka'aru is not a word but karu IS a word. Some Xians try and say that the word in Psalm 22 should be karu. The only problem is that karu doesn't mean "pierced" either. It means to dig". If you use its cognate 3rd person plural masculine gender "KARU" it translates to they dug. But note that kara or karu do not us the letter "aleph".


This is fairly simple to understand. Can you explain why you think Tovia is incorrect regarding the language he specializes in and has read daily for over 50 years?
That is a matter of opinion. K'ari is based off of more modern translation.


So I have a choice... today's modern "apologists" vs what Synagogues used in the time of Jesus. ;)
That truly makes no sense. On so many levels. We are trying to figure out what an OT passage says, this has nothing to do with Jesus?
The "time" of Jesus? You mean the fist official canon, the Marcionite canon that the current canon is a reaction too? A canon which we know nothing about? Or the entire 2nd century, 50% Gnostics, ~40 Gospels, only mentioned inconclusively by Justin Martyr (didn't know the Gospel by name) or late letters from Bishop Ireaneous complaining about the Gnostics. We really know nothing about any of that until the 3rd century.

So mentioning any of that as if it's a descisive time is not correct. What about forgeries? We know for a fact 1/2 of the Epistles are a forgery, the other 36 Gospels are considered inauthentic as are possible changes by Eusebius with the Josephus passage that is considered a forgery. So this point is way out in space as far as hinting that we can get an accurate anything from that time.
The actual time of Jesus is silent. Nothing. Paul didn't know about pierced or any crucifixion. He knew of a resurrection after a being killed by acherons of the age. Which could mean spiritual beings at that time. Or people.

So again, we have a similar discussion regarding the Dead Sea Scrolls from a different Jewish expert. One of the DSS is not clear enough to make a definitive statement. The same argument that Tovia is making is made here, Christians seem to be making up a word. Karu means to "dig" as in "in dirt". It's also missing a letter.


-Written by Uri Yosef, Psalms 22 - "Nailing" An Alleged Crucifixion Scenario Lesson notes

fragments containing Psalms 22:17[16] were discovered among the Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS). In the first fragment, which was found at Qumran (4QPs-f; known as the Qumran MS, the word in question is not preserved.

In the second fragment, found at Nahal Hever (HHev/Se 4 (Ps); known as the Bar Kochba MS, the word is preserved.

The fragment HHev/Se 4 (Ps) shows the Hebrew letters (kaf), (aleph), (resh), and what appears to be a somewhat elongated letter (yod), which some perceive to be the letter (vav).[3] Thus, the reading of this word would be either (ka'ari) or (ka'aru), respectively.

Although the latter of these two renditions of the term has been the focus of much controversy and discussion, it is a fact that no root verb exists which contains the letter (aleph) in it, conjugated in this fashion (3rd-person, plural masculine gender, past tense), with the meaning of they pierced, as rendered in most Christian translations.

Without the letter (aleph), and using, for the moment, the argument that the last letter [the elongated (yod)] is a (vav), the word would be (karu), for which the Hebrew root verb is (karah), [to] dig [in dirt], such as digging a ditch (e.g., Ps 57:7). In other words, (karu) has the meaning [they] dug [in dirt]. This verb is never used in the context of piercing, either literally or metaphorically, in any of its 15 applications in the Hebrew Bible.

What could cause such a variation between the two terms (ka'ari) and (ka'aru), i.e., with an elongated letter (yod) that resembles the letter (vav)? Since the word (ka'aru) does not exist in the Hebrew language, the most plausible explanation is that such discrepancy is simply a case of scribal variation (or error).

The word in Psalm 22 is ka'ari (lion) not karu (which means "to dig" BTW, as in digging a ditch, not pierce).

The Dead Sea Scroll version of the Psalm has kaari, but some Xians think it is kaaru because the yod is longer than normal and can be mistaken for a vav.

But here lies the problem: kaaru is NOT a word. There is no such word in Hebrew ancient or modern. Karu is a word -- but that isn't what is in the Dead Sea Scrolls or in any other Hebrew copy of the Psalm.

Ka'aru is not a word but karu IS a word. Some Xians try and say that the word in Psalm 22 should be karu. The only problem is that karu doesn't mean "pierced" either. It means to dig". If you use its cognate 3rd person plural masculine gender "KARU" it translates to they dug. But note that kara or karu do not us the letter "aleph".

Kaf-resh-vav is a word. Kaf-ALEPH-resh-vav is not a word. It is as if someone came upon dutg in English and wants to say it is dug.

BTW the KJV translates ka'ari correctly in other places that arent proof texts misquoted by the GT.

Numbers 23:24 (veka'ari), and I as a young lion

Numbers 24:9 (ka'ari), like a lion

Isaiah 38:13 (ka'ari), like a lion

Ezekiel 22:25 (ka'ari), like a lion

So the KJV translators correctly translated it until they got to Psalms 22:17[16] and suddenly the KJV doesn't know what it means and translates it as "they pierced."

One more little bit of Hebrew grammar. If the word really was "pierced," (which we've proven it is not) the sentence would have an "et" to identify the direct object which would be affected by that verb. There is no et.

 

Audie

Veteran Member
We have William Dever and Joel Baden giving the consensus opinion, both I linked to. The only evidence you sourced isn't yet evidence. So are you now just straight up lying or do you have evidence.

There is no evidence ever of armed conflict in Canaan.

THE ORIGINS OF ISRAEL​

Q: What have archeologists learned from these settlements about the early Israelites? Are there signs that the Israelites came in conquest, taking over the land from Canaanites?

Dever: The settlements were founded not on the ruins of destroyed Canaanite towns but rather on bedrock or on virgin soil. There was no evidence of armed conflict in most of these sites. Archeologists also have discovered that most of the large Canaanite towns that were supposedly destroyed by invading Israelites were either not destroyed at all or destroyed by "Sea People"—Philistines, or others.

So gradually the old conquest model [based on the accounts of Joshua's conquests in the Bible] began to lose favor amongst scholars. Many scholars now think that most of the early Israelites were originally Canaanites, displaced Canaanites, displaced from the lowlands, from the river valleys, displaced geographically and then displaced ideologically.



Archaeologist Carol Meyers, Exodus is a foundation myth. Maybe a few people came from Egypt and joined the Israelites and those stories became Exodus.

Remembering the Exodus​

So even though most of the early Israelites had not themselves made the exodus from Egypt, they adopt this story as part of their heritage.​

Yes. While very few Israelites may have actually made the trek across Sinai, it becomes the national story of all Israelites and is celebrated in all kinds of ways. Their agricultural festivals become celebrations of freedom, for instance. Many aspects of a new culture emerge and are linked with the "memories" of exodus.

The people who made the exodus from Egypt remember the experience, relive it, recreate it in rituals. They pass their rituals on to others, to future generations and to other people. We do this in our own American lives: Very few of us have ancestors who came over on the Mayflower, and yet that story has become part of our national story.




It cannot. The first book, Genesis is a re-write of Mesopotamian flood and creation myths.
David and Isaiah are forgeries and the NT is all syncretism.

PROVING THE BIBLE​

Q: Have biblical archeologists traditionally tried to find evidence that events in the Bible really happened?

William Dever: From the beginnings of what we call biblical archeology, perhaps 150 years ago, scholars, mostly western scholars, have attempted to use archeological data to prove the Bible. And for a long time it was thought to work. [William Foxwell] Albright, the great father of our discipline, often spoke of the "archeological revolution." Well, the revolution has come but not in the way that Albright thought. The truth of the matter today is that archeology raises more questions about the historicity of the Hebrew Bible and even the New Testament than it provides answers, and that's very disturbing to some people.




Because the vast majority of temples found has uncovered thousands of goddess figurines. The Documentary Hypothesis has nothing to do with origins, it has to do with who wrote scripture and when.
The text does not "exactly" tell you most people worshipped a consort of Yahweh. Genesis is a myth, Exodus is a foundation myth, the kingdom was much more small scale and no supernatural aspects can ever be proven. This is just one of the thousands of cultural myths.

Proverbs uses wisdom found in Egyptian and Mesopotamian sites, meaning it isn't from a God, it's created by people.






You have not. Just the one where zero evidence has been released.
There is an interview with the worlds most prolific Biblical archaeologist right heree -
you would think you would read it and understand. But you know it doesn't match your beliefs so you look elsewhere. This is not how one finds truth, this is how one uses confirmation bias to find only things that re-enforce an already formed belief system. Having nothing to do with what is actually true.
Dever is explaining archaeology cannot prove Biblical narratives?



Why yes, actually, it's always based on evidence. I constantly demonstrate this and you continue to tap dance around obvious facts.
Historians only go by evidence.
You might as well say the same about science.
There is no evidence of anything supernatural. There is archaeological evidence that the Biblical narrative is syncretic mythology mixed with some history.
The textual evidence is massive that it's typical syncretic mythology.
What else is there?



No, you get this wrong over and over. I have ideas that I suspect are true but I want to know what is actually true. If there is a God who loves blood sacrifice I want to know. I use evidence to form my beliefs. I thought at least there would be some spiritual mysteries in Eastern religions, but I wait to see what the actual evidence is. Not what a Hindu tells me her grandmother swears she saw when she was 9. If you want true beliefs you need a sound methodology, using empirical evidence to test those beliefs and be able to let go when proven wrong. Otherwise you will never know anything that is true.


First of all demons are not real. That is something to scare small children into going to bed, not to form a worldview on.

But yes, are demons not supposed to encourage people to do bad subliminally? Not lay out rules for a kind and compassionate life?
Even the Bible doesn't say set slaves free. Here is a free tip. PEOPLE wrote this. PEOPLE wrote and invented the gospels.


Don't confuse truth with falsehood or knowingly conceal the truth. 2:42
  1. Be good to parents, relatives, orphans, and the needy. Speak kindly and pay the poor-due. 2:83
  2. If you believe it, prove it. (A good rule, but does it apply to Muslims, too?) 2:111
  3. The Jews say the Christians are wrong, and vice versa. Yet they both believe in the Scriptures. 2:113
  4. Give of your wealth to family, relatives, and the needy. Set slaves free. 2:177
  5. Do not fight wars of aggression. (Does this apply only during Ramadan?) 2:190
  6. "Do good." 2:195
  7. Spend your money for good: to help your parents, your family, orphans, wayfarers, and the needy. 2:215
  8. Help orphans. 2:220
  9. "Make not Allah, by your oaths, a hindrance to ... making peace among mankind." 2:224
  10. "There is no compulsion in religion." (But see the next verse which says that disbelievers will burn forever in Hell.) 2:256
  11. Pay the poor-due. , , 2:277
  12. "If the debtor is in straitened circumstances, then (let there be) postponement to (the time of) ease." 2:280
  13. Don't argue about things that you know nothing about. 3:66
  14. Feed and clothe the needy. Set a slave free. 5:89"
  15. Do good to parents, don't kill your children or other living things unnecessarily. 6:151
  16. Pay the poor-due. 7:156
  17. Be kind and forgiving toward others. 7:199
  18. And if they incline to peace, incline thou also to it. 8:61-Quran
Winner frubal. Good detailed response.
 
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