Christians- How do you know Jesus and the Bible are true?

[CG Didymus]

I thought of that when I posted those questions. I asked because Joel said that he was not a conspiracy theorist but then said things that showed he is in relation to all religions. It's all made up and and foisted on people as if it is the truth.
I say a similar thing about some religions, there are scammers out there and have been in the past. Evidence points to Joseph Smith and Ron Hubbard as scammers for example. Others are probably sincere in their mistakes and are believers themselves. Others such as Muhammad and Baha'u'llah seem to have been led astray by demons and are probably sincere also.

The Baha'i writings are so vast that it seems unlikely that an ordinary man could have written so much. But what about the Quran? I've heard that stories like Jesus turning clay birds into real birds is from an apocryphal story. And the Quran also has Mary giving birth to Jesus under a date palm. To me, this makes it very possible that Muhammad pieced together things to create the stories in the Quran. Similar to how I think Joseph Smith could have easily created his story of the Book of Mormon. Yet, people believe them, and their lives are changed by them.

However, as profound as the Baha'i writings are, they deviate radically from what the NT says. The case is made in the NT that we all our sinners that can't save ourselves. There is nothing we can do to ever be good enough. They only way to get right with God is to accept Jesus and the sacrifice he made of dying on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins.

But, in the NT, Jesus did not stay dead. God raised him back to life. Made-up? Just a hoax? Did the gospel writers just embellish the Jesus story with supernatural miracles like people coming out of their graves and Jesus walking on water? Maybe. It's so beyond belief that some of us chose not to believe. But, I'd say, definitely, for those that do believe it, their lives are changed. But so are Muslims, Baha'is, Jews and believers in any religion and even those that believe in cults.

The thing about Baha'is, is their claim to believe in the Bible, the NT and Christianity... But what do they believe about them? Not much, saved by grace, the resurrection, the second-coming, Satan and hell... all gone... all made fictional and symbolic. And it works for them. They do believe in the Bible, the NT, in Christianity and all the other religions. But in a way that makes them all into what the Baha'i Faith says they are.

So, for me, I have reasons to doubt and question all religions. But I also believe that for the followers of the different religions... those religions are true and real and have changed their lives for the better. The one I question the most is the Baha'i Faith, because they claim to have all the answers to fix the world's problems... that if believed and followed, the Baha'i Faith can unite the people of the whole world. That their prophet is the promised return of everyone from Krishna to Jesus. Lots of huge claims. But, before we all give in to their claims and dump our old beliefs, what proof do they have that they, the Baha'i Faith, is for real?

For some of us, not a lot. Rather than being part of a progression from all the religions, it is more of a liberal progression of Islam. They claim that their prophet has fulfilled all the prophecies of all the religions, but most of them are too vague to be meaningful, and some just seem to be manufactured from one or two verses taken out of context. But is the religion working? Is it uniting people? Are they living in peace?

Yes, maybe in some cases, but they've got their problems. There are just way too many people that vanish and don't participate in the Baha'i community. Is that what was predicted? That Christ comes back, and some people believe, then leave? So, my question to them, especially about their administrative order... is it working, and will it work on a large scale? They say that for the "lesser" peace that all nations have to disarm. Can that work? As I've told them, we can't even disarm our citizens here in the U.S. And if we tried, I think there would be an armed rebellion. And I wouldn't be surprised if some people hid weapons and stockpiled ammunition.

So, why wouldn't it be the same for nations? Why would some of them give up their weapons willingly? Leaving themselves vulnerable to larger nations... especially if some of those larger nations hid some weapons. What are the smaller, disarmed nations going to do? So, will the Baha'i Faith work? Is this what the religions predicted for the end-times? Is the Baha'is Faith for real? Can we trust what they say as being "The Truth" from God? I don't know. So, I ask questions and point out problems and inconsistencies with their beliefs and claims. And, for the most part, their answers aren't all that good or they ignore the question. That doesn't give me much confidence in their religion as being true and as having all the answers.

 

[Zwing]

Whoever made up the stories knew they were BS.

I don’t think so. By the time they were written down, they were accepted origin stories. The audience was an Israelite one. The intent in writing them was not to deceive Israel, but to concretize a tribal identity with generally accepted legends.

 

[Zwing]

, the main character in the story, God, is real? But then he didn't really create the world in six days. He didn't really speak from heaven and on and on…

Yes, exactly. Even in the early days of the Church, (Saint) Augustine of Hippo taught that the first eleven books of Genesis were to be read as allegory, meaning symbolically. A literal reading of Biblical texts was never the rule in Roman Catholicism, which views the Bible as part and parcel of the mystery of God’s revelation of himself to mankind. This is why the Church for so long thought translation of the Bible into the vulgar tongues unnecessary, and so long opposed doing so.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

You are interpreting what happened, and that is what we do with stories, we look at the characters and decide who is the bad guy and who is the good and who is in control and try to see why the author wrote the story as he did. BUT you take out one of the characters, God, and interpret the story as a true story but without that character. This is making up your own story imo.

Because I don’t think it’s well established that God is a character. He only really shows up in a few scenes in the entire scriptures. I see Samuel talking about God, not God talking.

 

[Kenny]

My question pertaining to this would be, what does the wording of these ancient manuscripts matter at all? I can show you even older writings which indicate that Zeus and his cohort live atop Mr. Olimbos in Greece. What of it; shall I believe, or place faith, therein? As pertains to the question of the validity of a given cosmology, the minutiae of ancient manuscripts would seem to be utterly irrelevant. What should it matter to me whether somebody either “pierced” or “dug” in an old folk-tale? How does this help me to assess the epistemic validity of the story?

If, for you, it doesn't mean a thing... not a problem.

I like what Jesus said, " 12 On hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. " in Matthew 9

For me, it meant a saved marriage, peace, forgiveness, empowerment, prosperity, love, unity with God and so much more... but then again, I needed a doctor.

Now, to assess the epistemic validity of the story requires some reading, some questions and some digging.

 

[Zwing]

For me, it meant a saved marriage, peace, forgiveness, empowerment, prosperity, love, unity with God and so much more... but then again, I needed a doctor.

We have inverse experiences, which fact undoubtedly accounts for our cosmological differences. As a Christian (and a very serious Christian I once was), I had always placed a heavy reliance in my decision making, upon my understanding of what God wanted of me as that is portrayed within the scriptures. For me, faith and what I construed to be obedience, expressed as doing just that, ultimately meant a broken marriage, wasted years (decades, actually) of my life being used by a woman for her own selfish purposes, consequent anger expressed as rage, hatred, a tendency towards impoverishment the effects of which I have not yet been able to adequately counteract, and dissociation from God followed by disillusionment with the very concept thereof. The ramifications of all that are yet finding modes of expression in my life.

The thing I question, Ken, and I don’t mean this at all sarcastically, is wether all the above-noted benefits which you have gained worth having accepted the irrational? The great crisis of my life caused me to reevaluate my entire belief system, including my Christianity. I finally concluded, by said reevaluation, that accepting a theistic worldview is not only irrational but potentially dangerous for me, as the experiences which I have alluded to above would seem to suggest. I now maintain that I am on much safer ground in making decisions by relying upon my own ability to reason as opposed to trying to divine an unverified and apparently unverifiable deity’s will for me through a reading of a text. Said conclusion is why I ask of you the question appearing above. Now that I have evaluated the premises and conclusions of Christian faith using a sound logical process, I feel certain that I could never return to the communion unless I were to receive some type of supernatural confirmation of the veracity of what is suggested within the Biblical text.

 

[Kenny]

Thanks for the "like" frube.

We have inverse experiences. As a Christian (and a very serious Christian I once was), I had always placed a heavy reliance in my decision making, upon my understanding of what God wanted of me as that is portrayed within the scriptures. For me, faith and what I construed to be obedience, expressed as doing just that, ultimately meant a broken marriage, wasted years (decades, actually) of my life being used by a woman for her own selfish purposes, consequent anger expressed as rage, hatred, a tendency towards impoverishment the effects of which I have not yet been able to adequately counteract, and dissociation from God followed by disillusionment with the very concept thereof. The ramifications of all that are yet finding modes of expression in my life.

I am truly sorry for your experience.

The thing I question, Ken, and I don’t mean this at all sarcastically, is wether all the above-noted benefits which you have gained worth having accepted the irrational? The great crisis of my life caused me to reevaluate my entire belief system, including my Christianity. I finally concluded, by said reevaluation, that accepting a theistic worldview is not only irrational but potentially dangerous for me, as the experiences which I have alluded to above would seem to suggest. I now maintain that I am on much safer ground in making decisions by relying upon my own ability to reason as opposed to trying to divine an unverified and apparently unverifiable deity’s will for me through a reading of a text. Said conclusion is why I ask of you the question appearing above. Now that I have evaluated the premises and conclusions of Christian faith using a sound logical process, I feel certain that I could never return to the communion unless I were to receive some type of supernatural confirmation of the veracity of what is suggested within the Biblical text.

I understand that your statement of "having accepted the irrational" is simply an expression born from your experience - I'm not offended by the expression.

That being said, when I have had "an adverse experience", I have always reconciled it with understanding of what scriptures say. Most of the time, I find that lack of understanding, offenses and other things are often the impetus of adverse experiences.

What I have found to be very beneficial is to let the word of God study me and my experiences. I have never left the effort without understanding what happened with a result of a strengthening of my faith rather than a deterioration of the same. Too many times people have taught religion as faith with the results of an adverse results with the Father being the "one at fault" when it wasn't Him in the first place.

 

[Brian2]

Because I don’t think it’s well established that God is a character. He only really shows up in a few scenes in the entire scriptures. I see Samuel talking about God, not God talking.

Certainly in the story God is the main character all the way through the Bible.
Maybe you mean that His existence in reality is not extablished in your life and so you read between the lines in the Bible and try to understand it without God.

 

[Brian2]

Because I don’t think it’s well established that God is a character. He only really shows up in a few scenes in the entire scriptures. I see Samuel talking about God, not God talking.

Certainly in the story God is the main character all the way through the Bible.
Maybe you mean that His existence in reality is not extablished in your life and so you read between the lines in the Bible and try to understand it without God.

 

[Muffled]

We go by the words of our true Prophet, which is reality.

I believe there is no evidence to support the view that he is a prophet.

 

[Muffled]

What evidence could they have? The gospels say the tomb was empty. There was no dead body. Then Jesus showed himself to be alive and that he had flesh and bone. Now Jesus told parables, and it is clear when he's telling a parable, but when do the gospel writers tell parables of their own? But, of course, the only "proof" and evidence a Baha'i needs is that their religion says it was a spiritual, symbolic resurrection.

I believe that shows their supposed prophet is capable of fantasizing about it.

 

[Muffled]

The gospels say the tomb was empty. There was no dead body. Then Jesus showed himself to be alive and that he had flesh and bone.
So what? Anyone can write a story, but a story is no 'proof' that anything in the story ever took place.
Is the Harry Potter 'story' true?

Harry Potter, fictional character, a boy wizard created by British author J.K. Rowling. His coming-of-age exploits were the subject of seven enormously popular novels (1997–2007), which were adapted into eight films (2001–11); a play and a book of its script appeared in 2016.Apr 12, 2023
Harry Potter | Character, Books, Movies, & Facts | Britannica

I believe people who know God know the Bible is the word of God while everyone currently knows that Harry Potter is fiction. However I wouldn't put it past the Bahai's to think Harry Potter was real since they can't seem to tell the difference.

 

[CG Didymus]

I believe people who know God know the Bible is the word of God while everyone currently knows that Harry Potter is fiction. However I wouldn't put it past the Bahai's to think Harry Potter was real since they can't seem to tell the difference.

It's sad that the other Baha'is here let just one Baha'i be their main spokesperson. As if what she says is the official Baha'i view.

However, I think it is a more accurate view of what Baha'is are really saying about the Bible... that it is fiction.

But where is coming out and plainly saying that going to get the Baha'is? To admit that they reject the Bible as the Word of God. So, they don't. They come up with things like, "It's true, but not literally true." "It's inspired by God, but not wholly authentic."

I've tried to believe in both born-again Christianity and the Baha'i Faith. I can't do it, but I understand why some people can. But for each, Baha'is and Christians, it depends on believing your Scriptures as true. And neither can tolerate or allow the Scriptures of the other to be totally and completely true. And for Christians, it is usually more than that... to say the Baha'i prophet and his writings are completely false.

And that's what I'd expect each of them to do. But, for the Baha'is, they need Christianity and all the other religions to be true, in some way and somehow to support their belief in their concept of "progressive" revelation. So, they find ways to interpret the Scriptures and teachings of the other religions to make them compatible with the teachings and beliefs of the Baha'i Faith... which includes rejecting things some religions like reincarnation and incarnations of God and things like the resurrection of Jesus that is stated in the NT and is believed to be literally true by some Christians.

But born-again, Fundy Christians have absolutely no need for the Baha'i Faith. No way do they believe Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ. So, for them, it's a total rejection of the Baha'i Faith.

 

[Zwing]

Thanks for the "like" frube.

Of course, I’m always glad to know that someone has found contentment.

I am truly sorry for your experience.

Thank you.

Too many times people have taught religion as faith with the results of an adverse results with the Father being the "one at fault" when it wasn't Him in the first place.

I don’t claim that God was at fault, although that was indeed my first reaction to what occurred. I have come to understand my theism as the jeopardizing element in my situation. Can you appreciate the distinction?

Please don’t interpret my arguing against theism as any type of ad hominem gesture. I remain friendly with my former church pastor, who now is some type of regional pastor in North Carolina, and despite my unbelief, I still enjoy the ritual of the Mass which I grew up with. To be clear, you seem like a genuinely nice man; whom I would undoubtedly enjoy the company of.

 

[metis]

Yes, exactly. Even in the early days of the Church, (Saint) Augustine of Hippo taught that the first eleven books of Genesis were to be read as allegory, meaning symbolically.

And in Judaism, there are many observant Jews who believe much the same, which was taught by the great Jewish sage Maimonides many centuries ago.

 

[Kenny]

Of course, I’m always glad to know that someone has found contentment.

Thank you.

I don’t claim that God was at fault, although that was indeed my first reaction to what occurred. I have come to understand my theism as the jeopardizing element in my situation. Can you appreciate the distinction?

Please don’t interpret my arguing against theism as any type of ad hominem gesture. I remain friendly with my former church pastor, who now is some type of regional pastor in North Carolina, and despite my unbelief, I still enjoy the ritual of the Mass which I grew up with. To be clear, you seem like a genuinely nice man; be whom I would undoubtedly enjoy the company of.

Enjoyed time sharing with you and thank you for all your statements! And I do understand your position. Thank you for your transparency and honesty.

My wife grew up as a Catholic and I grew up not having made any commitment to any faith. We had the life change when I was 28. We do see differences in approach and in basic understanding of scriptures between her faith as a Catholic and her faith as a follower of Christ. Asking questions and gaining understanding made the difference for the both of us.

Hope you do have a great journey in your beliefs - even as one who has a belief in your capacity to make decisions. May you have a great life!

 

[Riders]

I do not believe there is any evidence that any prophet or character like Jesus is real. Instead, I follow God, and if he lea me to Christianity I will go by my own personal experience with God.

 

[Zwing]

And in Judaism, there are many observant Jews who believe much the same, which was taught by the great Jewish sage Maimonides many centuries ago.

I have his “Guide for the Perplexed” in both English and Spanish (originally found the Spanish copy, and intend to use it to help me improve my Spanish), but have not dug in at all yet. The reading list is always so long.

 

[Zwing]

May you have a great life!

Haha, thanks…but don’t make it sound so much like “goodbye”! I plan on participating more here.

 

[metis]

...between her faith as a Catholic and her faith as a follower of Christ.

They're different?