Have you read my two posts yet?
Christians- How do you know Jesus and the Bible are true?
Christians- How do you know Jesus and the Bible are true?
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Christians- How do you know Jesus and the Bible are true?
- Thread starter loverofhumanity
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Christians- How do you know Jesus and the Bible are true?
Christians- How do you know Jesus and the Bible are true?
.... for being a book of history and science, it can be considered suspect or disqualified. But does that therefore disqualify it for everything else then? If so, then how does that follow exactly?
Are truthful allegorical stories about human nature and spiritual life dependent upon an accurate scientific understanding of cosmology and earth history? Nobody before the scientific revolution 300 years ago knew anything about being human?
I was really clear in my post what I had to say about belief vs faith. I don't disagree we should have good support for our beliefs. But we were discussing faith. In the next section, a couple paragraphs down from what you just quoted, I said this:
Yes. Again, I think it's too convenient when people conflate faith and belief as the same things. Faith is not a get out of jail free card for logic fallacies and errors of facts. Those who treat it that way, are themselves guilty of not understanding and abusing what faith is.
Faith is our rooting and grounding that comes from one's sense, or intuition, or balance, of connection. It's our feet planted into the earth. Beliefs are what we hold in our hands to look at and consider and eat from for daily energy needs. Sometimes our beliefs have become overly ripe and are starting to rot. And which time, we are allowed to discard those 'edibles', and find fresher, more nutrient rich fruits to eat.
This is the problem with fundamentalist thought. It must be this apple and this apple alone, regardless of how decimated and full of worms it has become. Other apples must not be picked. This too, is a form of avoiding God, focusing on the beliefs, rather than sensing the earth beneath their feet. It's all "upper body", and no lower body awareness. They are disconnected from their legs, to expand on my metaphors.
Well, yes. I consider that when you meet a "True Believer", those that refuse to let go of their beliefs in the face of hard evidence to the contrary, such as denying the science of evolution in favor of a literal reading of the book of Genesis as a scientific account, that indicates a weakness of their rooting, or ground, or faith.
The weaker the faith, the more important the beliefs are, because that is all they have. But the stronger and more rooted that faith, or sense of self in the divine is, the less importance in "being right" becomes. Beliefs are held with much less of a tight grip.
It's like not having balance on your legs, and hanging on for dear life to that handrail. But if you have a sense of connection to your source, or ground, then you can just lightly touch that handrail instead, or even let go of it altogether if you are surefooted, bounding up and down those stairs with ease under your own sense of connection to the earth, or "God" in this metaphor. That is how I understand the "written on your heart" expression to mean in practical experience.
Handrail fundamentalism however, is the "chiseled in stone" expression. There is no inner balance and natural confidence. It's all external handrails, and only these handrails they are familiar with. Only handrails that are made of this type of pine from this part of the country. That is the epitome of spiritual insecurity, or lack of faith.
Faith is our rooting and grounding that comes from one's sense, or intuition, or balance, of connection. It's our feet planted into the earth. Beliefs are what we hold in our hands to look at and consider and eat from for daily energy needs. Sometimes our beliefs have become overly ripe and are starting to rot. And which time, we are allowed to discard those 'edibles', and find fresher, more nutrient rich fruits to eat.
This is the problem with fundamentalist thought. It must be this apple and this apple alone, regardless of how decimated and full of worms it has become. Other apples must not be picked. This too, is a form of avoiding God, focusing on the beliefs, rather than sensing the earth beneath their feet. It's all "upper body", and no lower body awareness. They are disconnected from their legs, to expand on my metaphors.
Well, yes. I consider that when you meet a "True Believer", those that refuse to let go of their beliefs in the face of hard evidence to the contrary, such as denying the science of evolution in favor of a literal reading of the book of Genesis as a scientific account, that indicates a weakness of their rooting, or ground, or faith.
The weaker the faith, the more important the beliefs are, because that is all they have. But the stronger and more rooted that faith, or sense of self in the divine is, the less importance in "being right" becomes. Beliefs are held with much less of a tight grip.
It's like not having balance on your legs, and hanging on for dear life to that handrail. But if you have a sense of connection to your source, or ground, then you can just lightly touch that handrail instead, or even let go of it altogether if you are surefooted, bounding up and down those stairs with ease under your own sense of connection to the earth, or "God" in this metaphor. That is how I understand the "written on your heart" expression to mean in practical experience.
Handrail fundamentalism however, is the "chiseled in stone" expression. There is no inner balance and natural confidence. It's all external handrails, and only these handrails they are familiar with. Only handrails that are made of this type of pine from this part of the country. That is the epitome of spiritual insecurity, or lack of faith.
There was quite a lot of explanation I offered. The above answers your objection here.
That all depends on what idea of God you are holding in your mind, doesn't it?
No, not at all. It is completely detectable using your own being to do so. It's really simply a matter of opening the eyes. It's not some nebulous object in space like "dark matter" which is hard to detect. It's everything that exists, but is simply not seen because we disallow ourselves from seeing it. It's that tree. It's that child. It's that cloud. It's the entire universe. It's you. But do you see it as that?
It's really not a matter of "detecting", so much as it is a matter of seeing. Think of it like saying the mountain range doesn't exist to the camera when the lens cap is on. Take it off, and there it is.
As well it should be! See my lengthy explanation about the role of faith and beliefs above.
RestlessSoul
Well-Known Member
People are giving answers which are personal to them, so of course they’re subjective. Does every answer to every question have to pass some esoteric standard of logic or reason? And does every personal belief have to be justified by some universal standard which is the same in every frame of reference?
Colt
Well-Known Member
Faith is inexplicable. I've always known that the Bible isn't completely true, however I've always believed in God. My faith in God transcends the Bible.
Jesus is a spiritual presence, "somehow" I know that.
Hermit Philosopher
Selflessly here for you
I do know what the point of your comment was, but thanks nonetheless - always good to make sure people understand what you’re putting across.By “method” [to put to the test] I meant approaching whatever/whomever you encounter in an attentive, humble and selfless manner for a consistent amount of time, to see how doing so impacts on your interactions with and perspective of the world and life in general.
By “attentive” I mean genuinely present, aware of and interested in whatever it is that you come across.
By “humble” I mean, in full knowledge and recollection of who you have been, who you are and how much you have learned and changed during your life so far + how much more you will learn and change during your life going forward. And in mindful awareness of this being true also for anyone you encounter.
By “selfless” I mean with your sense of self and its self-interest sent off on a lovely, relaxing beach holiday for an indefinite period of time, so that you can experience and dedicate yourself to the selves of others.
By seeing if it “works”, I meant assessing whether living in above manner for a consistent amount of time does or does not increase your sense of inner peace and harmonious interactions with others.
Humbly,
Hermit
InChrist
Free4ever
Christians who are born again to new life in Christ have met Jesus Christ personally because Jesus is alive. Granted, this encounter is a spiritual, rather than a physical meeting. Yet, for those whose lives have been transformed by Christ, the spiritual realm is as much of a reality, if not more real than the physical realm.
The Biblical scriptures have stood the test of time and continuous attack from skeptics, yet the Word of God endures forever. The Bible reveals information to humanity about the infinite Creator we would otherwise be incapable of knowing. As well, as honest, straightforward information concerning human nature, sin, the means of salvation and needed reconciliation with God the Creator, and the prophesied Savior of the world set in historical context, supported by archaeological evidence and discoveries, and fulfilled promises and prophecies given by the only Being/God who knows the future.
Those are briefly my reasons for believing in Jesus Christ and the Bible.
Well, what made you believe? No one has met Jesus. So what made you believe in Him. I’m trying to get back to what actually makes people believe.
Describe this spiritual encounter. What makes it valid?
That’s a very good point. How can one say their experience is true and valid yet when other religionists have the exact same ‘spiritual experiences’ they say it’s from Satan?
And if we examine the time after Christ was crucified and there was no Bible or disciples remaining. They relied on their gut feeling yet condemn others as being ‘deceived’ who have the same gut feeling about their own Prophet. How can they justify this unless it is just pure prejudice?
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
The Bible has more document evidence than almost any historical book...
But obviously we are asked to believe by faith. Faith is the evidence of things unseen.
No. But by the same token Christians often condemn people who believe in other religions by calling them ‘deceived’ when they have had the same personal subjective experience Christians have had about Jesus.
So it’s ok and valid for a Christian to have a personal experience about Jesus to justify their belief but not a Muslim or Hindu or Baha’i? These people are all accused of being deceived by Satan. I believe this to be bias, discrimination and prejudice.
I just posted this in another thread. Read this, and then ask me back here any other questions you may have: Convince me that God is loving
Believe in God, or believe our ideas about the Bible?
I recall an incident where I was at work and one lady was a devout Christian. She was friendly and we got along fine. But when she heard I believed in Buddha and Muhammad and Krishna she said the Bible condemns them all as false prophets.
So I challenged her to show me exactly where the name Buddha was mentioned as a false teacher because Buddha came well before Christ. She kept flipping pages saying He was Satan but I asked for exactly where was His name mentioned and she couldn’t find it because it’s not there!
The Bible never condemns Buddha, Muhammad, Krishna or Baha’u’llah. It is purely a concoction of Christian laymen and clergy. Yet Christians act so sure that all other religions are false without any backing whatsoever from the Bible.
The Bible is the Word of God. So it should know who is false and who is true yet you will not find any condemnation of Krishna, Buddha, Muhammad or Baha’u’llah in it whatsoever. Yet, according to most Christians we are all deceived by Satan and only their spiritual experiences are valid not ours.
To me that’s prejudice because Christians themselves admit that their belief comes down to a ‘subjective gut feeling’ one that they call ‘satanic’ for any other religionists of any other religion to have.
So I challenged her to show me exactly where the name Buddha was mentioned as a false teacher because Buddha came well before Christ. She kept flipping pages saying He was Satan but I asked for exactly where was His name mentioned and she couldn’t find it because it’s not there!
The Bible never condemns Buddha, Muhammad, Krishna or Baha’u’llah. It is purely a concoction of Christian laymen and clergy. Yet Christians act so sure that all other religions are false without any backing whatsoever from the Bible.
The Bible is the Word of God. So it should know who is false and who is true yet you will not find any condemnation of Krishna, Buddha, Muhammad or Baha’u’llah in it whatsoever. Yet, according to most Christians we are all deceived by Satan and only their spiritual experiences are valid not ours.
To me that’s prejudice because Christians themselves admit that their belief comes down to a ‘subjective gut feeling’ one that they call ‘satanic’ for any other religionists of any other religion to have.
That’s fine. But when other people of other religions believe ‘by faith’ Christians condemn them as having been deceived by Satan.
stvdv
Veteran Member
Exactly
Except the part I rejected
I will explain
The Bible is huge and has lots of information written by many different people. Like Science being huge with many people writing about it
You discard all of Science just because you discover 1 error, I think not?
Same way I don't trash all of the Bible if I were to discover 1 error.
I am totally senang with my Spiritual choices. Not even feeling any need to explain (unless asked) or convince others what to do or not to do regarding their feelings and or beliefs.
Many people like yourself have spiritual experiences which put you in touch with God. No one can invalidate your experience but in many forums I come across people mostly Christians who tell me my spiritual experience is not valid and that I am deceived by Satan, all while admitting that they themselves believe by faith.
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
I'll repeat myself:--
Can you explain what you mean by ‘believe in Him’?
Do I believe that he was…
a) a good man?
b) a prophet?
c) the Messiah?
d) the Second Person of the Trinity?
e) Savior?
f) that He existed?
What do you mean? (see #15)
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
But then, like here on this thread, there is you a Christian and Loverofhumanity a Baha'i. You both believe you have enough evidence that your beliefs are true, yet they contradict each other. Your evidence is such that you know that his evidence is false. The Jesus he believes in is not the same Jesus you believe in. And, if you are a Trinitarian Christian, the God you believe in is not the same God he believes in.
But, as the thread about religion being a placebo, does it matter? Both of you try to live by the things your religious beliefs tell you. If God is real, then I think it does matter. Is one of your religions true and the other false? Are both of them true? How can we know without more and better evidence?
If God spoke, appeared to people, sent angels, sent prophets etc, in the Bible, then God has ways to prove himself real. If he didn't, then the Bible is just a book of religious myth. If the Baha'is are right, and all we can know about God is from his manifestations, then what the Bible says about God and what he's done and can do is still fictional.