Christians:Is The Trinity Truly Biblical(A Separate Thread)

[uss_bigd]

You're so far off base, it's pathetic. First of all, Roman Catholic Church isn't a name, it's a descriptor. Ask any Catholic. They'll tell you that they're a member of "the Church."

You don't associate yourselves with the "Church that is written," or you would acssociate yourselves with the Church that recognizes the succession of bishops.

None of this is important to the argument at hand. Fact is, the Trinity is ancient -- as ancient as the NT writers. They incorporated that theology into their writings, implicitly, but not explicitly. It is that implicit theology that later apostles drew out of the scriptures and made explicit in the doctrine of the Trinity.

As you said, "Christian doctrine is in the Bible," as the Trinity certainly is implied. "If you do not believe what is written in the Bible, you are not Christian."

See the book "the faith of our fathers" it is a catholic book explaining the doctrine of the trinity.

It states in chapter one that: "teaches there is but one God with 3 distinct persons who are equal to each other" ( if you will question this, question the author of the book,and the catholic cardinals that approved it)


The question of this thread is again " is the trinity biblical?

let us see if the catholic presentation of the trinity consistent with the bible.

1. Catholic book states " 3 distinct persons who are CO-EQUAL" ( if you will question this, question the author of the book, and the catholic cardinals that approved it.)

1. Bible states:
John 10:29


"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

John 14:28

"Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."

Ephesians 1:21
This is referring to Christ and the church.

"Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:"

THE CATHOLIC DOCTRINE STATES THE TRINITI IS COMPOSED OF THREE DISTINCT PERSONS THAT ARE CO-EQUAL.

AS YOU HAVE READ IN THE VERSES ABOVE ARE THEY REALLY CO-EQUAL?

 

[Michel07]

See the book "the faith of our fathers" it is a catholic book explaining the doctrine of the trinity.

It states in chapter one that: "teaches there is but one God with 3 distinct persons who are equal to each other" ( if you will question this, question the author of the book,and the catholic cardinals that approved it)


The question of this thread is again " is the trinity biblical?

let us see if the catholic presentation of the trinity consistent with the bible.

1. Catholic book states " 3 distinct persons who are CO-EQUAL" ( if you will question this, question the author of the book, and the catholic cardinals that approved it.)

1. Bible states:
John 10:29


"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

John 14:28

"Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."

Ephesians 1:21
This is referring to Christ and the church.

"Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:"

THE CATHOLIC DOCTRINE STATES THE TRINITI IS COMPOSED OF THREE DISTINCT PERSONS THAT ARE CO-EQUAL.

AS YOU HAVE READ IN THE VERSES ABOVE ARE THEY REALLY CO-EQUAL?

John 14, 9 Jesus said to him, " Have I been with you for so long a time and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say 'show us the Father'?

I believe that while Jesus often did not make himself appear as equal to the Father He was and is, since what Loving Eternal Father would not make his only Son equal to Him . Especially a Son who died on a Cross... which would explain John 1, 1

 

[Comprehend]

This is being debated on another thread and I know that it has probably been discussed to death but...
Is it? I never really questioned it until recently. Does the bible truly say that God is "Three Persons of One Essence"? I am not questioning whether Jesus is God because I still believe that with no question.
Any verses and explanations (I would prefer that verses also contain what you get from them if that is possible) are welcome.

No, I don't think the bible *truly* says that God is "Three Persons of One Essence."

There are a few verses that one may take out of context and construe them to possibly allow that sort of interpretation but taking the teachings of the bible as a whole, it overwhelmingly shows Jesus and God the Father to be distinct individuals.


For example (info taken from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism): The three separate members of the Godhead (Father, Son, HG) are manifested separately in the Baptism of Jesus - Matt. 3:16-17, the stoning of Stephen - Acts 7:55-56.

John 17:9-11, 20-21 helps explain how they are one (in purpose rather than essence).

 

[uss_bigd]

I believe that while Jesus often did not make himself appear as equal to the Father He was and is, since what Loving Eternal Father would not make his only Son equal to Him

" the father is greater than i"

Greater is not the same as equal in any english dictionary. unless you have your "own interpretation apart from truth"

If that is what you believe, and you obviously believe differently than what Christ believes.

 

[Michel07]

" the father is greater than i"

Greater is not the same as equal in any english dictionary. unless you have your "own interpretation apart from truth"

If that is what you believe, and you obviously believe differently than what Christ believes.

You forgot to add the quote from Jesus Christ. Of course I don't think that matters to you as much as trying to look right. The quote was John 14,9

 

[uss_bigd]

You forgot to add the quote from Jesus Christ. Of course I don't think that matters to you as much as trying to look right. The quote was John 14,9

You can interpret that verse whichever way you want sir.

But the point still stands, The Catholic Chruch in the book "faith of our fathers" described the trinity as composed of 3 CO-EQUAL entities.

Jesus said " The Father is Greater than I"

Not until you can prove than Greater means equal, or that Jesus was just patronizing the father, The Catholic Church's Doctrine of the Trinity will never be biblical.

 

[Michel07]

You can interpret that verse whichever way you want sir.

But the point still stands, The Catholic Chruch in the book "faith of our fathers" described the trinity as composed of 3 CO-EQUAL entities.

Jesus said " The Father is Greater than I"

Not until you can prove than Greater means equal, or that Jesus was just patronizing the father, The Catholic Church's Doctrine of the Trinity will never be biblical.

What's to interpret? Did it ever occur to you that maybe you just don't get it? It wouldn't be a sin you know.

 

[uss_bigd]

What's to intepret? Did it ever occur to you that maybe you just don't get it?

it is your pride talking.

GREATER and EQUAL will never have the same meaning, why are you evading that point?

Sir, I was once catholic, i have been to your viewpoint. how in the world can i not get where you are coming from?

But whether you admit it or not, you close your mind to my viewpoint. Hence, you are just limiting your self to truth that you know. how much of the truth do you really know?

 

[Michel07]

it is your pride talking.

GREATER and EQUAL will never have the same meaning, why are you evading that point?

Sir, I was once catholic, i have been to your viewpoint. how in the world can i not get where you are coming from?

But whether you admit it or not, you close your mind to my viewpoint. Hence, you are just limiting your self to truth that you know. how much of the truth do you really know?

Who's pride talking? I have yet to meet two catholics who think exactly alike so it is easy for you not to know where I'm coming from. And printing in really big letters might be drama but it won't make your arguments better.

 

[uss_bigd]

Who's pride talking? I have yet to meet two catholics who think exactly alike so it is easy for you not to know where I'm coming from. And printing in really big letters might be drama but it won't make your arguments better.

I will leave that to those whose reading the threads with an open heart.

I am sorry i had to argue with you, I just want to stand up for the truth that is in the Bible.

 

[Michel07]

I will leave that to those whose reading the threads with an open heart.

I am sorry i had to argue with you, I just want to stand up for the truth that is in the Bible.

So am I, so am I.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Ok I will try this again, uss-bigd, we agree that Jesus was without sin/perfect.
Hebrews 4:15
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin.

Would you agree that the only Biblical entity that can be perfect is God?
Would you agree that the Father and the Holy Spirit are perfect as well?
If you say that all three are without sin and therefore perfect/ divine then they are one in divinity. Divinity=God

one more time.

 

[uss_bigd]

Ok I will try this again, uss-bigd, we agree that Jesus was without sin/perfect.
Hebrews 4:15
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin.

Would you agree that the only Biblical entity that can be perfect is God?
Would you agree that the Father and the Holy Spirit are perfect as well?
If you say that all three are without sin and therefore perfect/ divine then they are one in divinity. Divinity=God

John 17:21-23

"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me."


The Chruch "can be" made perfect, if they are one with Jesus as he is one with the father ( one in purpose). Hence, my answe to your question, as it is worded is no.

I provide thee with more proof.


Hebrews 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Just men's spirits are made perfect.

God = divinity you asked?

Id say the Father, the Son and the HS are divine, however Peter said
2 Peter 1:3


"According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust
Peter said we can be "partakers of the divine nature. corroborating what John wrote that the chruch is made parfect"

I hope i answered your question, what was your point sir?

 

[Jeremy Mason]

John 17:21-23

"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me."


The Chruch "can be" made perfect, if they are one with Jesus as he is one with the father ( one in purpose). Hence, my answe to your question, as it is worded is no.

I provide thee with more proof.


Hebrews 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Just men's spirits are made perfect.

God = divinity you asked?

Id say the Father, the Son and the HS are divine, however Peter said
2 Peter 1:3


"According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust
Peter said we can be "partakers of the divine nature. corroborating what John wrote that the chruch is made parfect"

I hope i answered your question, what was your point sir?

Your right, we are made perfect in Jesus is because of his perfection, the only flawless man that walked the earth. The only thing that can be perfect is God.
Jesus was divine because he was God in the flesh.
John 1:1
[ The Word Became Flesh ] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

To me Jesus was the Word that became flesh. Jesus was with God the Father. The Word was/is God.

If Jesus wasn't God, when did the Word become flesh?

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Lunamoth has a great post about Jesus in the "Jesus is God?" dabate post #233.

 

[Ratiocinative]

Read my reply to dunmiester.

The "gods" referred to in Psalms 82 are people in positions of high authority, like kings and rulers. Learn to read in context.

 

[Comprehend]

The "gods" referred to in Psalms 82 are people in positions of high authority, like kings and rulers. Learn to read in context.

Genesis 1:26
26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:


John 10:34-35
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

1 Cor 8:5
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

Deut 10:17
17 For the LORD your God [is] God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

Josh 22:22
22 The LORD God of gods, the LORD God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if [it be] in rebellion, or if in transgression against the LORD, (save us not this day,)


"God" in these verses are:

theos {theh'-os**
Greek: noun masculine

1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
2) Christ is called God in John 1:1, 20:28, 1 John verb:20, Rom.
9:5, Titus 2:13, Heb 1:8 etc.
3) spoken of the only and true God; refers to the things of God; i.e. his counsels, interests, things due to him

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Whose Son Is the Christ

41While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42"What do you think about the Christ[d]? Whose son is he?"
"The son of David," they replied.
43He said to them, "How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'Lord'? For he says,
44" 'The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet." '[e] 45If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son?" 46No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.



This is a great example of David talking to Jesus before Jesus was born. It also illastrates(sp?) that two Lords(capital "L") are conversing with eachother.
any more questions?

 

[IIChr7:14]

Is there a biblical verse that says that the Holy Spirit is a God?

 

[sojourner]

See the book "the faith of our fathers" it is a catholic book explaining the doctrine of the trinity.

It states in chapter one that: "teaches there is but one God with 3 distinct persons who are equal to each other" ( if you will question this, question the author of the book,and the catholic cardinals that approved it)


The question of this thread is again " is the trinity biblical?

let us see if the catholic presentation of the trinity consistent with the bible.

1. Catholic book states " 3 distinct persons who are CO-EQUAL" ( if you will question this, question the author of the book, and the catholic cardinals that approved it.)

1. Bible states:
John 10:29


"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

John 14:28

"Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."

Ephesians 1:21
This is referring to Christ and the church.

"Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:"

THE CATHOLIC DOCTRINE STATES THE TRINITI IS COMPOSED OF THREE DISTINCT PERSONS THAT ARE CO-EQUAL.

AS YOU HAVE READ IN THE VERSES ABOVE ARE THEY REALLY CO-EQUAL?

You're forgetting something the Roman Fathers did not: That Jesus is both fully human and fully Divine. The Johanine statement is a reflection of Jesus as fully human. From that perspective, the Father would be greater. However, the Johanine statement, pushing a very particular theological stance, does not address the issue of the fully Divine Jesus, which is addressed elsewhere. Your point, predicated upon the particular Johanine quotation, is moot.