Christians: please help me out with this

[Terrywoodenpic]

These two are mutually exclusive, mate :help:

Certainly...to us.... However there may indeed be many paths to chose from.
To say they are mutually exclusive for God, Is to limit him.
This is one trap Calvin fell into. He applied it to some reasoning, but not to his own.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Certainly...to us.... However there may indeed be many paths to chose from.
To say they are mutually exclusive for God, Is to limit him.
This is one trap Calvin fell into. He applied it to some reasoning, but not to his own.

No no. God knowing the outcomes, seals them in stone. God cannot be wrong.
My point does not state 'they are mutually exclusive to God,' the point is these two are mutually exclusive in all cases. God does not use square circles. Make a circle square, and it's not a circle. Claim that a choice is free, but also claim that it's known without error by a power who cant be wrong, and it's no longer a choice, its an inevitable outcome.

Our choices are simply pantomimes acted out under his supervision.

There 'may not' be many paths to choose from in the system we are discussing. Only the path God already knows.
I am applying the reasoning universally.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

No no. God knowing the outcomes, seals them in stone. God cannot be wrong.
My point does not state 'they are mutually exclusive to God,' the point is these two are mutually exclusive in all cases. God does not use square circles. Make a circle square, and it's not a circle. Claim that a choice is free, but also claim that it's known without error by a power who cant be wrong, and it's no longer a choice, its an inevitable outcome.

Our choices are simply pantomimes acted out under his supervision.

There 'may not' be many paths to choose from in the system we are discussing. Only the path God already knows.
I am applying the reasoning universally.

You are applying human reasoning to God.
This is as ridiculous as applying God's processes to man.

God is outside time, and applying the reasoning of cause and effect is pointless.

 

[cablescavenger]

God knows everything. It created everything. It knows no time since it always was and always will be. There isn't a decision you could ever make that god didn't know you were going to make. God knew before it ever created you, whether or not you were destined for heaven. So my question is, How is life a test?

I see God as a bit of an underachiever, and not that bright, I think you are giving God credit where it isn't due.

 

[idea]

OK, but in the end god created us and ultimately decides if we get into heaven. So it doesn't make sense if the test is for us since he already knows everything and we do not decide anything or sway his judgement in anyway. But could you please touch more on this notion that god did not create the universe?

If I say I create a piece of art - this does not mean that I made something from nothing. It would be better to say I transformed paint/paper/canvas/clay into art.

The word "create" in the Bible is not "something from nothing" but rather describes transformation.

Hebrew Root Word Studies

[SIZE=+1]Child Root (Branches of the Tree)[/SIZE]

[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia] Pronunciation: "Qa-NeH"
Meaning: To build a nest.
Comments: This child root is a nest builder, one who builds a nest such as a bird. Also God as in Bereshiyt (Genesis) 14.19; "God most high creator (qaneh) of sky and earth". The English word "create" is an abstract word and a foriegn concept to the Hebrews. While we see God as one who makes something from nothing (create), the Hebrews saw God like a bird who goes about acquiring and gathering materials to build a nest (qen), the sky and earth. The Hebrews saw man as the children (eggs) that God built the nest for. [/FONT]

[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]

See also the Lexicon:
Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
[/FONT]

Outline of Biblical Usage
1) to create, shape, form
a) (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject)
1) of heaven and earth
2) of individual man
3) of new conditions and circumstances
4) of transformations
b) (Niphal) to be created
1) of heaven and earth
2) of birth
3) of something new
4) of miracles
c) (Piel)
1) to cut down
2) to cut out
2) to be fat
a) (Hiphil) to make yourselves fat

Here is another example:
God is not the Creator, claims academic - Telegraph


the word "create" has been redefined to mean something it did not originally mean.


(Old Testament | Isaiah 64:8)
8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.


God molds and transforms what is eternally there - this is what is meant when we say He is the great creator. There are no scriptures which say God was alone in the beginning, there was never a time when nothing existed except God.

Everything has always existed - including us. This is why we have an independent will - because part of us is independent from God. God is cleaning up a mess He did not create.

(This is Mormon doctrine btw - but a few others believe it too)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
God found us, took pity on us, and provided a way through which we could advance and learn to become like Him if we choose.
He adopted us:

(New Testament | Romans 8:15)
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

adoption is the process where someone takes care of another that they did not create...

He does not force anyone to do anything - this would take away our free will - and with it our ability to love/live/exist. God knows how everything will turn out - can see who we are, even when we cannot clearly see our self. Even if He knows it all, it would be unjust to not give someone a chance... so we are all give a chance, we are all pushed as far as we are able to go... we are all given the opportunity to show who we really are - to actually live/experience/physically go out and do things - and not just left to the thought experiments of what we might have been, what we might have done... anything else would be untested, unproven...
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]
[/FONT]

 

[bigNavySeal]

So...
Our linear existence keeps us from going back and correcting errors.
It also prevents going forward to view pending problems.
And God knows no time barrier.

The last line is the actual problem.
Remove it.

God is following right along...watching.
Your performance can...and will be...evaluated.

It's not a test.

This life forms unique spirit...yours...mine....
This life cannot do anything else.
We are here to learn all that we can....then back to God we go.

If you do well...fine....
If not....why put up with your failed spirit?

You have been assembled.
You can be taken apart.

Not quite sure what your belief is, but I really like how you put those lines. Almost surreal how you put it but it's a spot-on possible explanation. Only real truth knows if te true explanation for our existence

 

[sunshineydays]

I have come to know there are many Gods, and that the one I escaped from, was the worst of them. There are Gods out there who don't want you to be their puppet. They are the best, but, they usually don't accept just anyone.

Go out in the world with no Gods whatsoever, that's how you cut the strings. Think the forbidden thoughts. Read forbidden subjects. Learn actual science. Then look back and see all the deceit that was heaped upon you in the name of God. And which is still heaped, in great juicy helpings, on others today.

Then, once you have settled, being walking again. And you might get a calling.

Becoming a God myself? I wish. I'd do a damn-sight better job than many at it.
Or are you making the mistake in thinking I'm an atheist?

No on atheist and it does not make a differance to me if you are or not. I still belief in free choice, and that we all have it. W/o free choice you would not have been able to escape the dogmas of this world.There are many deceptions in the world today, through religion mostly, as in hearding the flock, or do you think I am a religionist, trying to pound my form of religion, I am free from all of that nonsense, and do see what you are saying, and have done the things you say except the creator is the only God I have not left behind, and inspite of this did all the forbidden things you spoke of. I found that The creator loves me unconditionally, as well as the whole world
So I gave and give homeage to the creator, with respect and thankfullness changing my mind from unbelief to belief
sunshineydays

 

[Istina]

No no. God knowing the outcomes, seals them in stone. God cannot be wrong.

My point does not state 'they are mutually exclusive to God,' the point is these two are mutually exclusive in all cases. God does not use square circles. Make a circle square, and it's not a circle. Claim that a choice is free, but also claim that it's known without error by a power who cant be wrong, and it's no longer a choice, its an inevitable outcome.

Our choices are simply pantomimes acted out under his supervision.

There 'may not' be many paths to choose from in the system we are discussing. Only the path God already knows.
I am applying the reasoning universally.

You still haven't made your claim that God's foreknowledge negates our free will.

God's foreknowledge is based on Him knowing the choices we will make, not determining them. This is a fundamental difference you seem not to grasp.

 

[Istina]

The word "create" in the Bible is not "something from nothing" but rather describes transformation.

There is not a single text that states matter is eternal, yet there are many texts that clearly indicate the opposite, including:

Hebrews 11:3 "By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible."

Colossians 1:16 "For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him."

John 1:3 "3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."

The Bible clearly teaches that physical matter is the creation of God, and this is supported by a vast body of early extra-Biblical Jewish sources.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

If I say I create a piece of art - this does not mean that I made something from nothing. It would be better to say I transformed paint/paper/canvas/clay into art.
The word "create" in the Bible is not "something from nothing" but rather describes transformation.
Hebrew Root Word Studies[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]
[/FONT]

There is No Scripture that says God created from nothing.
According to Isaiah [40v26] God supplied the needed high-density dynamic energy needed to created the material/physical world.
-Jeremiah 10v12;32v17

Psalm 104v30 mentions when God sends forth his spirit they are created......
-Psalm 36v9

 

[idea]

There is not a single text that states matter is eternal, yet there are many texts that clearly indicate the opposite, including:

Hebrews 11:3 "By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible."

Colossians 1:16 "For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him."

John 1:3 "3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."

The Bible clearly teaches that physical matter is the creation of God, and this is supported by a vast body of early extra-Biblical Jewish sources.

The above uses the word "form" and "made". Think for a minute what these words really mean. "Form" means to take something (like clay) and mold it. It does not mean to make something from nothing. To make something - again, to take an object and transform it. These scriptures say nothing about creating something from nothing.

"that was made" .... if it was made - and that is a big if - if it was made, if it was transformed/organized/made into something better - then God is the author of that transformation... however everything is not organized/made....

There is no scriptures that states "in the beginning there was absolutely nothing but God".

There are scriptures that talk about how our birth was not our beginning:

(Old Testament | Jeremiah 1:5)
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

our spirit existed before we were born. (This is why we call God our "Heavenly Father - because He adopted our spirits in heaven before we were born).

(Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:7)
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

return - this means to go back to a place that we have already been... after we die we will return to where we lived before we were born. Our spirit exists after death, and existed before birth.

our spirit is eternal, with no beginning, just as God is.

Rom 16:26 - the same word used to describe God is used to describe us.
Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

aiōnios
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting


aiōnios life - eternal life - or eternal damnation ... this is impossible to attain if we had a beginning.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

You are applying human reasoning to God.
This is as ridiculous as applying God's processes to man.

God is outside time, and applying the reasoning of cause and effect is pointless.

There is no other type of reasoning. And a reference to 'cause and effect' is irrelevant here. We are discussing contradictory properties.
Contradiction is contradiction, and special pleading doesn't fix it

Sorry

 

[Heathen Hammer]

You still haven't made your claim that God's foreknowledge negates our free will.

God's foreknowledge is based on Him knowing the choices we will make, not determining them. This is a fundamental difference you seem not to grasp.

I already clearly explained it, right there in the post of mine you quoted..

And as for your 2nd sentence: that's exactly what it does.
Since he cannot be wrong, it DOES determine them. This is God we are discussing, not simply a human who has foreknowledge; that is probably the source of your error. He knew what they would be before you made them. Or are you claiming he didn't know beforehand? that would be a different arbitrary definition for 'God'.

 

[chinu]

God knows everything. It created everything. It knows no time since it always was and always will be. There isn't a decision you could ever make that god didn't know you were going to make. God knew before it ever created you, whether or not you were destined for heaven. So my question is, How is life a test?

In the beganing, when this whole creation was on its way to blow up. Said "God" -- My childerns (Souls) -- whether you go anywhere, or you do anything, you will always feel something uncomplete and unsatisfied without "ME"..........................TEST it ?

And when all souls suddenly heared this statement, some of them started crying by hearing this and said "God", that we don't want to go. Than again said "God" -- Don't worry when you will cry for me there, i'll come for you to take you back.

After then there was a big blast and the life beganed.

 

[Istina]

I already clearly explained it, right there in the post of mine you quoted..

No, you have made an assertion (that free will and God's foreknowledge of our decisions are mutually exclusive); but this is not making a case. What is your reasoning for asserting that God's foreknowledge of my decisions determines those decisions?

And as for your 2nd sentence: that's exactly what it does.
Since he cannot be wrong, it DOES determine them. This is God we are discussing, not simply a human who has foreknowledge; that is probably the source of your error. He knew what they would be before you made them. Or are you claiming he didn't know beforehand? that would be a different arbitrary definition for 'God'.

God is omniscient. His knowledge of the future is absolute. But knowing and determining are two different things altogether.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

No, you have made an assertion (that free will and God's foreknowledge of our decisions are mutually exclusive); but this is not making a case. What is your reasoning for asserting that God's foreknowledge of my decisions determines those decisions?

read what I wrote.
If God cannot be wrong, AND he knows what choices you will make before you make them [or are even conceived], THEN these results are immutable. The acts you then commit are not choices brought about by free will, they are actions moving along precisely as God has planned and as he desires. That is the opposite of 'free will'.

Some part of you wishes to equal God knowing something, with a person knowing something; a person is simply aware, they would not be causing the events to occur. At this instant in the thought process you must selectively delete the attribute that his knowing beforehand guarantees it to happen; and you aren't allowed to do that.

That is different for God. He makes EVERYTHING happen. Nothing occurs outside his plan. His plan, his thoughts, are the concrete of the universe. God does not guess.

I seriously can't explain it more simply to you.

God is omniscient. His knowledge of the future is absolute. But knowing and determining are two different things altogether.

Not in the case you just described.

I realize the implications are not what you want, and thus you reject them, but they remain.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

The flaw in this system of thinking is that there is the desire to portray God as all powerful and the prime cause of all events. Every conceivable positive hyperbole must be attached to his attributes. He is infallible. It is also desired to have him pre-aware of all events, knowing all, seeing all, causing all.

Then there is the desire to also include the idea that we are free to act as we will, so that God may judge us [fairly, presumably] after we act.

In order for us to act with free will God cannot know beforehand what we do; he must be surprised. Only then is he morally able to judge our acts as good or evil, and deal with us appropriately. If we act with evil we must by the very definition be doing what God hates, and God cannot create what he hates deliberately, as that would be illogical. He ONLY ever gets what he wants. Since he is all-good. he only creates good.

Unfortunately, these two groups cannot coexist in the same system; they are mutually exclusive.

That is when cognitive dissonance sets in. This is human nature.

 

[Istina]

There is no scriptures that states "in the beginning there was absolutely nothing but God".

And there is no scripture that states matter is eternal.

The above uses the word "form" and "made". Think for a minute what these words really mean. "Form" means to take something (like clay) and mold it. It does not mean to make something from nothing. To make something - again, to take an object and transform it. These scriptures say nothing about creating something from nothing.

Let's try one at a time...
Hebrews 11:3 "...so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible."
Matter is visible. What is seen was NOT made from what is visible.

There are scriptures that talk about how our birth was not our beginning:

As these all refer to human beings, and not one refers to the creation of the cosmos, they are irrelevant.

Further, you are confusing the material and immaterial aspects of humanity.

Humans have two constituent parts - the material (body and soul) and the immaterial (spirit). There is not a shred of Biblical support for the notion of the eternal historical existence of the spirit.

I refer to your own reference from Jeremiah 1:5:

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

This 'knew' is a foreknowledge of each and every human being. There is nothing in the exegesis of this passage, or of the derivation of this word, that provides any relief for your view of the historical eternality of the spirit.

 

[Thief]

I will see the vistas of Valhol; or, if I live very long and die without another's blood on me, perhaps a nap in Hel's realm.

your mileage may vary

okay...this and your previous post indicate......no morality...

Die with another's blood on you?....really?

And the angels will do unto you as you did unto others....won't they?

I think your post about escape tells it all.
You made a choice...you're happy for now....

 

[Heathen Hammer]

okay...this and your previous post indicate......no morality...
Die with another's blood on you?....really?
And the angels will do unto you as you did unto others....won't they?
I think your post about escape tells it all.
You made a choice...you're happy for now....

Since you lack any perspective and post only empty poetry and think it's profound, your value judgments on me are less than useless

Your angels cannot touch me. it delights me no end that this idea frustrates you so very much.