Christians: please help me out with this

[Thief]

Since you lack any perspective and post only empty poetry and think it's profound, your value judgments on me are less than useless

Your angels cannot touch me.

And maybe They won't.

They might just leave you wherever you fell.

 

[Istina]

read what I wrote.
If God cannot be wrong, AND he knows what choices you will make before you make them [or are even conceived], THEN these results are immutable. The acts you then commit are not choices brought about by free will, they are actions moving along precisely as God has planned and as he desires. That is the opposite of 'free will'.

Again, this is merely an assertion. Nevertheless, let me address it.

You suggest that because God has foreknowledge of my actions, then He must plan and desire each action. Yet many of my actions God does not desire. In fact He allows us to make decisions and take actions that He KNOWS will have negative consequences for us, and for others, even though He loves us. This contradicts your assertion.

In order for us to act with free will God cannot know beforehand what we do; he must be surprised. Only then is he morally able to judge our acts as good or evil, and deal with us appropriately. If we act with evil we must by the very definition be doing what God hates, and God cannot create what he hates deliberately, as that would be illogical. He ONLY ever gets what he wants. Since he is all-good. he only created good.

God's desire is that 'none should perish'.

God get's what He wants in the sense that those who are saved will spend eternity with Him because they chose to follow Him. If God determined it all in advance, none would perish.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

And maybe They won't.
They might just leave you wherever you fell.

Keep dreaming about it, child.

 

[Thief]

Keep dreaming about it, child.

I have excellent dreams....but that's another topic.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Again, this is merely an assertion. Nevertheless, let me address it.

Your entire premise is also an assertion.
However, mine is an assertion which is then explained by rational means.
[edit - also, I begin to see you might be trying to Mere Opinion Fallacy your way to victory. My dear, this entire discussion is about a bald assertion. We are simply parsing out whether or not it can survive rational examination]

You suggest that because God has foreknowledge of my actions, then He must plan and desire each action. Yet many of my actions God does not desire.

Begging the question.

In fact He allows us to make decisions and take actions that He KNOWS will have negative consequences for us, and for others, even though He loves us. This contradicts your assertion.

Again, begging the question.

God's desire is that 'none should perish'.

Then demonstrably he does not get all he desires.
Somewhere in this equation we must lose one of God's omni-attributes.

God get's what He wants in the sense that those who are saved will spend eternity with Him because they chose to follow Him. If God determined it all in advance, none would perish.

Yes, so, you see the problem?

Somewhere in here is a contradiction.

This is essentially a Holmsian exercise. Something in the list does not fit. At this point you must simply choose which part it is. Once the sticking point is removed, everything else falls into place. There are several possible scenarios, depending on which part of the puzzle is the part that won't fit; but each result will lack one part you wish to include. But the simple rational truth is, you cannot have them all.

 

[Thief]

Your entire premise is also an assertion.
However, mine is an assertion which is then explained by rational ? means.


Then demonstrably he does not get all he desires.
Somewhere in this equation we must lose one of God's omni-attributes.

Yes, so, you see the problem?

Somewhere in here is a contradiction.

No problem.....
God's omni-attributes stop at your decision.
You are then free to suffer your choice.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

suffer .

This one word sums up your hope for others

 

[Thief]

This one word sums up your hope for others

For all...no exceptions.
It means to 'allow'.

 

[BruceDLimber]

But various scriptures also explicitly assert that god knows the end of everything.

I never claimed He doesn't.

But you overlook the fact that this sifting and testing may also be for OUR benefit.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[gospelsaves]

Here is my belief, and I am a Christian.

I think to understand your question you need to look at the purpose of creation.
God eternally exists as 3 beings: God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.
All are God, all are one. Hard for us to understand, but can a worm understand a man? Hard for us to comprehend and explain….but God is so far beyond man. It’s hard for us to understand a being that is 3, yet 1. But there is nothing else like God.

The bible says that the Son didn’t think equality with the Father was something to strive for. Meaning that although Christ (the Son) is in every way completely equal with God the Father, and God the Spirit... he decided to call himself “Son”. Meaning he humbled himself, even though he himself is God.

God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit wanted to show complete love and give glory and honor to God the Son for all eternity. So God decided to make man. Man was to give glory and honor and praise to God the Son for all eternity. Bible says if you give glory to the Son then you give Glory to the Father and the Spirit…..as all are one.

Man was created to love, and worship and praise God. Man was created as an ETERNAL being. We were created to love and worship and praise God for eternity.

In order to love someone (to truly love someone) you have to have the option of NOT loving them right? IF you force someone to do something…… then they don’t have an option…… and you can’t say it’s really true love. This is what we call choice, or free will. It's like how do I know my husband truly loves me? I know he loves me because he has the choice to stay with me or not…..he CHOOSES to stay and express his love to me and that’s how I know he loves me. He has the option to love me and stay, or not love me and walk away. I can’t force him to love me, and even if I could….if I FORCED him to love me it wouldn’t be true love anyway.

Man was given free will to choose to love God or not. God doesn’t want anyone to go to hell. The bible clearly states that. God desires that all love him. Just like we want everyone to love us….God’s wants all to love him. He’s not forcing anyone to love him…..he can’t …..if He forces someone to love him then that by definition wouldn’t be true love.

Does God know which choice everyone would make? YES. But in order for a person to really love God, they had to have a choice to NOT love God. So he had to create even the ones that he KNEW would say no to him. This is my belief.

 

[idea]

Let's try one at a time...
Hebrews 11:3 "...so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible."
Matter is visible. What is seen was NOT made from what is visible.

what is seen is made out of something - energy is not visible, and is not non-existent. Heb 11:3 does not say what is seen is made out of nothingness...

As these all refer to human beings, and not one refers to the creation of the cosmos, they are irrelevant.

Something more than just God is eternal - matter/energy/light/intelligence/spirit - matter and energy are the same thing (e=mc^2) if matter was not around, then energy was.

Further, you are confusing the material and immaterial aspects of humanity.

Humans have two constituent parts - the material (body and soul) and the immaterial (spirit). There is not a shred of Biblical support for the notion of the eternal historical existence of the spirit.

I agree that we are made of spirit and body -

I refer to your own reference from Jeremiah 1:5:

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

This 'knew' is a foreknowledge of each and every human being. There is nothing in the exegesis of this passage, or of the derivation of this word, that provides any relief for your view of the historical eternality of the spirit.

The spirit shall return unto God who gave it, Eccl. 12:7

return means to go back to a place that we have previously been to. Our spirits will return to God after we die - our spirits lived with God before we were born, and will return to where we were before we were born.

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, Jer. 1:4–5
God knew us - not in some hypothetical sense - but in a very real sense before we were born.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate, Rom. 8:28–30.
He has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, Eph. 1:3–4

not just predestined - but known - God knew our spirit, chose us, assigned us tasks - before we were born - before the world was formed.


We are to be in subjection to the Father of spirits, Heb. 12:9
God is literally the Father of our spirit - He is our actual Father, because He formed our spirits before placing our spirits within flesh here on earth... why else do you think we call Him our Heavenly Father?


The angels which kept not their first estate, he hath reserved in everlasting chains, Jude 1:6 The Devil and his angels were cast out, Rev. 12:9
Before we came to earth there was a council in heaven. Before we were born we decided to come to earth - to follow God's plan. The spirits who decided not to follow God became fallen angels - the Devil's followers. Those who decided to follow God - who kept their first estate - this is us. We are here because we chose to come here.

 

[idea]

God knows everything. It created everything. ...

God is cleaning up a mess He did not ex-Nihlo create... God is a creator in that He is transforming what eternally exists.

 

[Vger]

I'm an atheist, so If I were to die as I'm typing this, I would go straight to hell.

If you were to read a bible , you would know that is not how the bible says it works

God already knew that. He knew it before the earth was made. So God made me, knowing that I would not love him, never change my path, and go to hell. according to God I never had a choice..

The only problem with that is , you are not dead yet , so you could still change your mind. If Michael Flew can change his mind anything is possible.

All Christians agree god is all knowing, but they seem to forget what that type of power entails. Its a paradox..

How could anyone forget what it truly means to be all knowing unless they were all knowing at one time or another. Being that they were never all knowing,, you or anyone else have no knowledge what it would entail to be all knowing. So your statement is false but the very statement itself.

There cannot be a test if the person giving the test knew all along who would pass and who would fail.

What evidence do you support this on?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

If you were to read a bible , you would know that is not how the bible says it worksThe only problem with that is , you are not dead yet , so you could still change your mind. If Michael Flew can change his mind anything is possible.How could anyone forget what it truly means to be all knowing unless they were all knowing at one time or another. Being that they were never all knowing,, you or anyone else have no knowledge what it would entail to be all knowing. So your statement is false but the very statement itself.What evidence do you support this on?

Didn't Jesus go 'straight to hell' when he died ? __________[Acts 2vs27,31]

Jesus went to the Bible's hell [sheol], Not the pagan hell concept.
That 'non-biblical burning-forever myth is Not the Bible's hell. [sheol]
Biblical hell is just the common grave of mankind where the dead sleep.
Jesus likened death to deep sleep at John [11vs11-14]
Jesus was well educated in the Hebrew OT Scriptures.
Jesus knew the Psalms.
The Psalmist wrote the dead sleep at Psalms 6v5; 13v3; 115v17; 146v4.
King Solomon, known for his God-given wisdom, wrote the dead know nothing.
[Ecc.9vs5,10]
The prophet Daniel looked forward to being awakened from death's sleep.
[Daniel 12vs2,13]

The Bible's hell [gravedom] is: temporary [Rev 20vs13,14]
Once everyone in the biblical hell is resurrected 'delivered up' then emptied-out hell according to verse 14 is cast empty into second death.

True God knows the end [finale] according to Isaiah [46v10]
but that does not mean knowing the outcome of each individual.
God knows the happy ending at Revelation 22v2.
But as to who make up part of that happy outcome is: unknown.
Unknown because there is No set number as to who make up the great multitude, or great crowd, of people of Rev. 7v9; 20v8 B.
Just as grains of sand [Jer. 33v22] can't be counted,
so too the people are an unknown number,
just as the sand of the sea is an unknown number.
God leaves it up to each individual [free will] if they want to be part of that unknown number.

Good point you make about Mr. Flew changing his mind.
'MIchael' Flew or do you mean Antony Flew ?
Antony Flew ended up believing that there are evils in abundance which could not be put down to a consequence of human sin.
Also, that DNA research has shown by the almost unbelievable complexity of the arrangements which are needed to produce life, that intelligence must have been involved.

 

[Vger]

Didn't Jesus go 'straight to hell' when he died ? __________[Acts 2vs27,31]

Jesus went to the Bible's hell [sheol], Not the pagan hell concept.
That 'non-biblical burning-forever myth is Not the Bible's hell. [sheol]
Biblical hell is just the common grave of mankind where the dead sleep.
Jesus likened death to deep sleep at John [11vs11-14]
Jesus was well educated in the Hebrew OT Scriptures.
Jesus knew the Psalms.
The Psalmist wrote the dead sleep at Psalms 6v5; 13v3; 115v17; 146v4.
King Solomon, known for his God-given wisdom, wrote the dead know nothing.
[Ecc.9vs5,10]
The prophet Daniel looked forward to being awakened from death's sleep.
[Daniel 12vs2,13]

The Bible's hell [gravedom] is: temporary [Rev 20vs13,14]
Once everyone in the biblical hell is resurrected 'delivered up' then emptied-out hell according to verse 14 is cast empty into second death.

True God knows the end [finale] according to Isaiah [46v10]
but that does not mean knowing the outcome of each individual.
God knows the happy ending at Revelation 22v2.
But as to who make up part of that happy outcome is: unknown.
Unknown because there is No set number as to who make up the great multitude, or great crowd, of people of Rev. 7v9; 20v8 B.
Just as grains of sand [Jer. 33v22] can't be counted,
so too the people are an unknown number,
just as the sand of the sea is an unknown number.
God leaves it up to each individual [free will] if they want to be part of that unknown number.

Good point you make about Mr. Flew changing his mind.
'MIchael' Flew or do you mean Antony Flew ?
Antony Flew ended up believing that there are evils in abundance which could not be put down to a consequence of human sin.
Also, that DNA research has shown by the almost unbelievable complexity of the arrangements which are needed to produce life, that intelligence must have been involved.

yes I did mean Antony , my mistake.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

yes I did mean Antony , my mistake.

Either way, using Mr. Flew as an example was an excellent choice on your part.

 

[Darrell]

How is this possible if Jesus washed away all sin?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

How is this possible if Jesus washed away all sin?

Jesus blood cleanses us of all sin [1st John 1v7]
But Not all will accept Jesus.
That is why Matthew [20v28] wrote that Jesus ransom covers MANY not all.

Jesus ransom does Not cover those committing the unforgivable sin.
[Matt 12v32; Hebrews 6vs4-6]

Those destroyed at Armageddon are Not covered by Jesus ransom.
[Isaiah 11 vs3,4; Rev. 19 vs11,14,15; Psalm 92v7]

 

[Istina]

Your entire premise is also an assertion.

What premise? I am challenging your premise that God's omniscience and our free will are mutually incompatible.

Begging the question.

Not so. Based on what we know about God (even if this God is hypothetical to you), we can be sure He does not approve of everything we do.

Again, begging the question.

Do you understand what that means?

Then demonstrably he does not get all he desires. Somewhere in this equation we must lose one of God's omni-attributes.

Which one? Omnipotence? No. Omniscience? No. Omnipresence? No.

Yes, so, you see the problem? Somewhere in here is a contradiction.

Not at all. It is perfectly reasonable for God to desire that none should perish, but desire more that those who don't come to Him freely.

This is essentially a Holmsian exercise. Something in the list does not fit. At this point you must simply choose which part it is. Once the sticking point is removed, everything else falls into place. There are several possible scenarios, depending on which part of the puzzle is the part that won't fit; but each result will lack one part you wish to include. But the simple rational truth is, you cannot have them all.

Nothing 'doesn't fit. The alleged contradiction is actually resolved by free will, not contradicted by it. God's ultimate will is for fellowship with humans who freely chose to follow Him. The consequence of that world is sin, evil and the reality that not all will be saved. There is no contradiction. It all makes perfect sense.

 

[Istina]

what is seen is made out of something - energy is not visible, and is not non-existent. Heb 11:3 does not say what is seen is made out of nothingness...

The actual quote reads Hebrews 11:3 "...so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible." This was written to first century jews and gentiles, not 21st century physics students. The accepted reference is to something from nothing.

Something more than just God is eternal -

Biblical cite??

The spirit shall return unto God who gave it, Eccl. 12:7

return means to go back to a place that we have previously been to.

Actually it doesn't. It refers to the spirit returning to God, not because it was there before, but because He "gave it".

Our spirits will return to God after we die - our spirits lived with God before we were born, and will return to where we were before we were born.

Can you provide a singe Biblical cite for this eternality of the spirit?

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, Jer. 1:4–5
God knew us - not in some hypothetical sense - but in a very real sense before we were born.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate, Rom. 8:28–30.
He has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, Eph. 1:3–4

not just predestined - but known - God knew our spirit, chose us, assigned us tasks - before we were born - before the world was formed.


We are to be in subjection to the Father of spirits, Heb. 12:9
God is literally the Father of our spirit - He is our actual Father, because He formed our spirits before placing our spirits within flesh here on earth... why else do you think we call Him our Heavenly Father?


The angels which kept not their first estate, he hath reserved in everlasting chains, Jude 1:6 The Devil and his angels were cast out, Rev. 12:9
Before we came to earth there was a council in heaven. Before we were born we decided to come to earth - to follow God's plan. The spirits who decided not to follow God became fallen angels - the Devil's followers. Those who decided to follow God - who kept their first estate - this is us. We are here because we chose to come here.

Your interpretation of these passages is not supported by the language of the text.
The everlasting chains of Jude are the result of rebellion by the angels, and are therefore everlasting into the future, not the past.
The Jeremiah passage is referring to God's foreknowledge of us as people. There is no reference to spirit in this passage.
Likewise the Romans and Ephesians passages refer to god's foreknowledge. There is no supporting passages to link these verses to a preexisting spirit.
God is the Father of spirits because he created them! We call God our Heavenly Father because that is what He is in relational terms.

I ask again, what verses can you cite that speak to the eternality of the spirit? The spirit cannot be both eternal and 'formed'.

I would also make this point...there is one significant feature in all of these passages that you overlook. Not a single one refers to God knowing our SPIRIT before we were born...YOU added those words.
There is also not a single verse in all of scripture that speaks of the eternality of the angels. In fact there are passages that speak of God creating the angels.