Christians: They were banned!

[Endless]

Great. Obesity is a sin. Killing people is a sin. Why aren't they telling overweight people to get out? Why aren't they telling combat active soilders to get out? I'll tell you why....because it's wrong! Passing judgement and condemnation is a sin. Draw the line and throw the finger pointers out too. Since they are persistent in their sin by passing judgement and condemning people.

Obesity is not a sin :biglaugh:Neither is killing people if you are in combat in the army - murdering people is a sin. Gluttony does not equal obesity.
If the Bible already condemns homosexuality then we are not passing judgement if the person in question admits homosexuality.

This is absurd. How can anyone even compare pedophilla and homosexuality together is mindboggling!:banghead3

One word: CONSENT! A child doesn't have a full comprehension of sex until puberty.

You don't seem to understand what paedophilia really is - it is not sexual abuse of a child. It is a state of mind where the individual is attracted to children - prepuberty. People who abuse these children are called paedophiles because they have this attraction towards young children. Therefore being a paedophile does not mean that you will have sex with a child - merely that you are oriented that way.

Homsexuality is a state of mind?! Neither are genetic?! :banghead3
How about gay people who've tried being straight but can't? Try and turn gay and you'll see where these people are coming from.

How about gay people who have turned straight, how about straight people who have gotten married had children and then 'found out' they were gay? It works both ways - this is the reason why it is not genetic - it is a state of mind. This state of mind is what prevents some gay people from becoming straight etc. But some gays do turn straight. It can only be a state of mind - no scientific study has ever turned up a gay gene because it doesn't exist. It's the same with paedophilia - there is no gene that does that - it's a state of mind, or how your mind has become oriented if you will.
The only comparision i made between them both is that neither is genetic and that both are a state of mind.
Recently the theory is that we are all gay to some degree or other - it can vary one way or another - hence the reason it is a state of mind.

 

[Mister_T]

Absolutely! Jesus taught the truth to them. Which is what we should be doing for gay people. And the truth is that homosexuality is a sin.

So is self-righteous finger pointing. Which is why people need to still their wagging tongues and live by example.

 

[Lindsey-Loo]

So is self-righteous finger pointing. Which is why people need to still their wagging tongues and live by example.

If you have a brother or sister in Christ who is living in sin, the Bible commands us to talk to them. I don't consider that self-righteous..."finger-pointing"

 

[Mister_T]

Obesity is not a sin :biglaugh:Neither is killing people if you are in the army - murdering people is a sin. Gluttony does not equal obesity.

I love double standards. Overeating is a form of gluttony and self indulgence which can lead to becoming obese. Which could be labled as a sin.

Killing people PERIOD is a sin. Thou shalt not kill. Pretty cut and dry. Killing=bad. Jesus said if someone strikes you to turn the other cheek. Not shoot them and bomb their country.

You've obviously missed the point I was getting at. If you're going to preach to people about their sins, then do it equally with everyone and every form of sin. Go preach to some gang members in Compton. Go preach to drug dealers in downtown L.A. or rapists. If your not going to do that then don't do it at all because you're making yourself out to be a hypocrite. Put your money where your mouth is.

If the Bible already condemns homosexuality then we are not passing judgement

Back that up that part about judging with scripture.

You don't seem to understand what paedophilia really is - it is not sexual abuse of a child. It is a state of mind where the individual is attracted to children

You don't seem under understand the concept of mutual consent. The child doesn't have an attraction for the pedophile. 2 gay people have an attraction for each other. No one is being hurt and no one is being taking advantage of. A child doesn't know what sex is and the paedophile takes advantage of the child's naiveness. No one is being taking advantage of in a gay relationship becuase both are consenting.

How about gay people who have turned straight, how about straight people who have gotten married had children and then 'found out' they were gay? It works both ways - this is the reason why it is not genetic - it is a state of mind. This state of mind is what prevents some gay people from becoming straight etc. But some gays do turn straight. It can only be a state of mind - no scientific study has ever turned up a gay gene because it doesn't exist. It's the same with paedophilia - there is no gene that does that - it's a state of mind, or how your mind has become oriented if you will.
The only comparision i made between them both is that neither is genetic and that both are a state of mind.
Recently the theory is that we are all gay to some degree or other - it can vary one way or another - hence the reason it is a state of mind

It does work both ways. But just because something works both ways doesn't mean it's not genetic.

Recently the theory is that we are all gay to some degree or other - it can vary one way or another - hence the reason it is a state of mind

If this is true then try and force yourself to be gay and put this argument to rest once and for all. Try and force yourself to be attracted to someone of the same sex. If you statement is correct, then you'll be gay in no time. But you won't turn gay because you're not wired that way. Go kiss someone of the same sex and see how you feel. That's how some gay people feel kissing someone of the opposite sex.

 

[Mister_T]

If you have a brother or sister in Christ who is living in sin, the Bible commands us to talk to them. I don't consider that self-righteous..."finger-pointing"

There are lots of people in sin. Go preach to the cannibal headhunters in parts of Africa about their sins. After all, there our brothers and sisters too! GO PREACH TO ALL SINNERS WITH EQUAL AMOUNTS OF ENTHUSIASM. When I start seeing people do that, I'll stop shouting hypocrite. Becuase that's exactly what they are.

 

[Adstar]

I believe I mentioned this in another thread (I can't remember which it was). But a few weeks ago there was a gay couple who was banned from their church on the basis of the fact that they were gay. All I know about it is that somehow the pastor found out about it and forced them from the church. And if that weren't enough the Council of Bishops (the highest rank of the Methodist Church) is backing up the pastor's decision.

This decision just flew in the face of the "Open Hearts; Open Minds; Open doors" policy of the Methodist Church. And the ones who broke the policy are the ones who came up with it! Hypocrites!! I cannot believe they would just walk away from the very teachings the Methodists hold so dear! One being that everyone is invited to come to Christ and God, not just the ones who happen to fit certain criteria! :verymad:

What are your thoughts on this situation? As you probably have realized now I think it is an atrocity!

I do not know exactly how the events that lead to this incident unfolded so i cannot post on it. (i am not a methodist by the way)

Anyway we are called to give the word of God and be patient with others, But their comes a time when those who are opposed to the truth must be rejected. The homosexual act is an abomination to God and a sin. And those who commit such acts without regret or repentance after having been informed of the evil of their doings should be rejected.

There is no point having fellowship with those who call good what God has called evil.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Mister_T]

I do not know exactly how the events that lead to this incident unfolded so i cannot post on it. (i am not a methodist by the way)

Anyway we are called to give the word of God and be patient with others, But their comes a time when those who are opposed to the truth must be rejected. The homosexual act is an abomination to God and a sin. And those who commit such acts without regret or repentance after having been informed of the evil of their doings should be rejected.

There is no point having fellowship with those who call good what God has called evil.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Mattew 7: 1-5 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brothers eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother 'Let me take the speck out of your eye' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? you hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brothers"

How often do you see Jesus bossing his followers
around?

He didn't do that. Instead, he took off their shoes and washed
their dirty feet to show them how they should serve each other. His
life and death are the deep irony of God engaged in the
humble service of mankind.

You're right. There is no point in having fellowship with those who call good what God has called evil. Which is why I steer clear of organized religion.

 

[w00t]

It would be well if people minded their own business, especially so called Christians. If something is not a crime and is not hurting others, then how people choose to lead their lives is entirely up to them. Some pastors get off on a power trip of telling their congregation how to behave. In my experience, the more judgmental a Christian is of the perceived sins of others, the more likely their life will not stand up to too much scrutiny!

The Bible is hardly a good example of how to behave. If I really believed that it was the word of the chap upstairs then it would be a case of 'do as I say', not, 'do as I do'! Some terrible events are supposed to be at God's behest, which makes him a worse mass murderer than Saddam!

 

[Adstar]

Revealing that something is a sin and warning other of it, is Not Judging. It is warning others out of love for them. People must accept Gods will on this. For a sinner to repent they must find out that they are sinners. The Word of God makes us know we are sinners and that motivates us to accept the forgiveness that is available through the Messiah Jesus.

To say to a sinner that their sin is not sin is the worst form of abuse imaginable. Homosexuality is not being singled out because it is a special sin. It is the focus because society is saying that homosexuality is OK. We do not talk about murder as much because society on the most part agrees that murder is wrong.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[retrorich]

I believe I mentioned this in another thread (I can't remember which it was). But a few weeks ago there was a gay couple who was banned from their church on the basis of the fact that they were gay. All I know about it is that somehow the pastor found out about it and forced them from the church. And if that weren't enough the Council of Bishops (the highest rank of the Methodist Church) is backing up the pastor's decision.

This decision just flew in the face of the "Open Hearts; Open Minds; Open doors" policy of the Methodist Church. And the ones who broke the policy are the ones who came up with it! Hypocrites!! I cannot believe they would just walk away from the very teachings the Methodists hold so dear! One being that everyone is invited to come to Christ and God, not just the ones who happen to fit certain criteria! :verymad:

What are your thoughts on this situation? As you probably have realized now I think it is an atrocity!

I agree 100%. Congratulations to you on having the courage to speak your mind on this issue. You are a credit to Christianity. Frubals to you. :clap

 

[w00t]

It strikes me that fundies get off on the perceived sins of others! How can homosexuality possibly be a sin when most homosexuals are born that way, just as I was born a heterosexual? If one believes that God created folk, one must believe he created them gay, straight or bi! It is the sort of person you are that counts, not your sexuality.

A sin is only a sin if it hurts others. If you followed all the Biblical teaching there would be no equality of the sexes, women would not be permitted to become clergy, husbands could beat their wives, naughty children could be stoned and so on! We live in the 21st century not a 2000 year old time warp! What might have been thought as wrong in those days in not considered wrong today by most people!

 

[Mister_T]

Revealing that something is a sin and warning other of it, is Not Judging. It is warning others out of love for them. People must accept Gods will on this. For a sinner to repent they must find out that they are sinners. The Word of God makes us know we are sinners and that motivates us to accept the forgiveness that is available through the Messiah Jesus.

To say to a sinner that their sin is not sin is the worst form of abuse imaginable. Homosexuality is not being singled out because it is a special sin. It is the focus because society is saying that homosexuality is OK. We do not talk about murder as much because society on the most part agrees that murder is wrong.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

judged, judg·ing, judg·es

1. To form an opinion or estimation of after careful consideration: judge heights; judging character.
2. 1. <LI type=a>Law. To hear and decide on in a court of law; try: judge a case. <LI type=a>Obsolete. To pass sentence on; condemn.
   2. To act as one appointed to decide the winners of: judge an essay contest.
3. To determine or declare after consideration or deliberation.
4. Informal. To have as an opinion or assumption; suppose: I judge you're right.
5. Bible. To govern; rule. Used of an ancient Israelite leader.

v. intr.

1. To form an opinion or evaluation.
2. To act or decide as a judge.

READ NUMBER 5 OVER VERY CAREFULLY. If your on trial for theft, your neighbor can't judge you and call you a thief. You're neighbor can't sentence you in his living room. The only person who can do that is the appointed judge of the county. The lawmakers. Guess what? You're not the lawmaker. You have no right to say anything to anyone.

Sorry dude, but as we can see by definition, you and eveyone who's does what you do is judging. And that's God's job not yours. God doesn't need you to restate his rules. He doesn't need a teachers pet to run around and tattle tale on everyone. If he did we wouldn't need the Bible.
If a gay person wants to attend church and and have a relationship with God, and if God doesn't approve of their actions GOD WILL LET THEM KNOW THAT HE DOESN"T LIKE IT. God has always let me know when I do something that he doesn't like. And it wasn't through big mouth Christians who can't mind their own business.

The bottom line is God doesn't need you to reveal SQUAT. You're supposed to serve people and show love and compassion. Not point a finger at them and try to make them feel guilty. To say that what you do is an act of love is ludacris and hypocritical.
I hope that one day you and others repent of your sin which Jesus so clearly labeled. The world would be a better place.

 

[No*s]

I believe I mentioned this in another thread (I can't remember which it was). But a few weeks ago there was a gay couple who was banned from their church on the basis of the fact that they were gay. All I know about it is that somehow the pastor found out about it and forced them from the church. And if that weren't enough the Council of Bishops (the highest rank of the Methodist Church) is backing up the pastor's decision.

This decision just flew in the face of the "Open Hearts; Open Minds; Open doors" policy of the Methodist Church. And the ones who broke the policy are the ones who came up with it! Hypocrites!! I cannot believe they would just walk away from the very teachings the Methodists hold so dear! One being that everyone is invited to come to Christ and God, not just the ones who happen to fit certain criteria! :verymad:

What are your thoughts on this situation? As you probably have realized now I think it is an atrocity!

I agree with Angellous...we don't have all the facts, so it's pretty hard to pass judgement "yea" or "nay" on this.

 

[Endless]

Mister_T,

A paedophile does not have to have sex with a child inorder to be classed as a paedophile. A paedophile is someone who is oriented towards children, mostly prepuberty.
Consent doesn't even come into the equation - because that is not what defines a paedophile. He can have feelings yet choose not to act upon them.

If the Bible classifies homosexuality as a sin and a person in question says they are a practising homosexual - then how in the world are we judging them when we flag them with what God already says?

In your definition of judge:

To form an opinion or estimation of after careful consideration:

I have formed no opinion about the individual themselves - i am merely saying that God says what you are doing is wrong. I can love the person and yet disagree with what they do. I don't form opinions on people. If i say this with their best interests at heart and not in a condemning way then you should see no problem with this. This is the definition of what Jesus means when he warns us not to judge. He is not saying that no court should ever judge someone and bring punishment upon them - that is just naive. He is talking about forming opinions about individuals such as 'Oh they are a bad person' etc. What about children - did you ever punish your child if they did something wrong? If so are you not disobeying God when he tells you not to judge? No, because this is not what he meant.

The bottom line is God doesn't need you to reveal SQUAT. You're supposed to serve people and show love and compassion. Not point a finger at them and try to make them feel guilty. To say that what you do is an act of love is ludacris and hypocritical.
I hope that one day you and others repent of your sin which Jesus so clearly labeled. The world would be a better place.

Then perhaps we should not tell people about Jesus who have never heard? Perhaps we should never show God's love to those around us - after all like you said, he doesn't need us to reveal squat. When you understand that you discipline a child only in love, then you will perhaps understand that life is not as clear cut as you imagine. Let me tell you what Jesus did say, will we call on him to repent of his sin?

Mt 23:13 ¶ "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
14 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.
15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
16 "Woe to you, blind guides, who say, 'Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.'
17 "Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies the gold?
18 "And, 'Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.'
19 "Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift?
.....
Mt 23:23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.
24 "Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
25 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence.
26 "Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness.
28 "Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

Is this the Jesus we know? Perhaps our Jesus is not the Jesus who flagged the pharisees showing the error of their ways - to the extent where they wanted to kill him. Look at the language he is using - is this unchristian like? Perhaps our Jesus is not the Jesus who made a whip and cleared the temple of God because the people there had 'made it a den of robbers' by selling there. Who do we think Jesus was - a man, or a nice guy who didn't want to get controversial?
What did Jesus say to the woman caught in adultery - 'Go now and leave your life of sin'. Is this judging her? If he said this to a homosexual - does that then become judging? Jesus was not a nice guy - he was a good guy and their is a difference.

Also neither is killing someone a sin. The commandment is said in the sense of murder. Is all killing murder? Not at all - look at the law of the old testament when someone accidently killed someone. It is not as clear cut as perhaps we think it.

 

[Mister_T]

paedophile does not have to have sex with a child inorder to be classed as a paedophile. A paedophile is someone who is oriented towards children, mostly prepuberty.
Consent doesn't even come into the equation - because that is not what defines a paedophile. He can have feelings yet choose not to act upon them.

I already answered this.

A child doesn't know what sex is and the paedophile takes advantage of the child's naiveness. No one is being taking advantage of in a gay relationship becuase both are consenting.

I showed why a pedophile is wrong. CONSENT is a big deal. Regardless of acting on your feelings or not. Their is a clear distiction of right and wrong.

In your definition of judge

It's funny (but not suprising) how you completley ignored #5 (the one that gives the Bibles definition of judging) which clearly backed up what Jesus defined as Judging. You're governing to people....which is juding. Keep ignoring that and enjoy the sin that you live in.

then how in the world are we judging them when we flag them with what God already says?

By the simple fact that you're preaching to them about the law and that they must follow it to be saved. That is what the Pharisee's did. You're appearing no different.

I have formed no opinion about the individual themselves

Nothing wrong with that.

I can love the person and yet disagree with what they do

I agree

I am merely saying that God says what you are doing is wrong

The key phrase here is God says. You're not God. Let him say it.

If i say this with their best interests at heart and not in a condemning way then you should see no problem with this

You don't realize the very implication of your actions. You are breeding hate. Here you have this person who's no better than you, telling you that your lifestyle is wrong and that you need to be just like them in order to have salvation. Golly gee. That would make me like you a lot. That in turn would make me dislike you and any message you preach to me becomes detestable. Put yourself in there shoes.

Then perhaps we should not tell people about Jesus who have never heard? Perhaps we should never show God's love to those around us - after all like you said, he doesn't need us to reveal squat. When you understand that you discipline a child only in love, then you will perhaps understand that life is not as clear cut as you imagine. Let me tell you what Jesus did say, will we call on him to repent of his sin?

You know what I was refering to. Don't twist my words and take them out of context. I NEVER said not to preach the gospel. You're putting words in my mouth. That's quite manipulative and it's a tactic I've seen used often. Very much like the Pharisse's. God doesn't need you to reveal his law and preach it. God will inscribe his law on a persons heart REGARDLESS of sexual oreintation. You're supposed to be planting a the seed of love and compassion and God will do the work he wants to be accomplished. You are supposed to be "washing peoples feet" not dictating their faults.

What did Jesus say to the woman caught in adultery - 'Go now and leave your life of sin'. Is this judging her? If he said this to a homosexual - does that then become judging? Jesus was not a nice guy - he was a good guy and their is a difference.

The fact is bro, YOU AIN'T JESUS
Jesus is God. JESUS has every right to say what he wants. YOU on the other hand DON'T.

Also neither is killing someone a sin.

?! Unbelievable. THOU SHALL NOT KILL..........PERIOD, THE END. There is no statement after that. Don't kill: Nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't get any easier than that. I guess I'll just tell God he's wrong about one of his 10 commandments.

The commandment is said in the sense of murder. Is all killing murder? Not at all - look at the law of the old testament when someone accidently killed someone.

Accidentley killing somone is one thing.
Soilders don't accidentley kill people.

It is not as clear cut as perhaps we think it.

Or you're trying to avoid looking like a hypocrite by dodging the example I gave you about soilders. Thank you providing a shining example of how to twist scripture around to suit religious dogma! You do it with my words, why wouldn't you do it with the Bible.

 

[sojourner]

You know, none of these arguments matter. The fact is, the Church, as the Body of Christ, is called to be hospitable, gracious, and loving. We don't throw people out. Period. God's laws, if fulfilled properly, do not cause anger, hurt and division. They encourage community, kindness and mercy. God's laws do not take precedence over a person's status or well-being in God's eyes (or in ours!) -- that's what grace is all about.

God wants us to learn to love and accept each other, warts and all. Shunning a person's company does not esclude that person from God's kingdom...we're going to have to deal with those we don't like sooner or later...it might as well be sooner.

At the great banquet table in heaven, I believe we will be seated thusly: On our right will be the person we have hurt the worst. On our left will be the person who has hurt us the worst. We are called to live as if the kingdom were here and now. I don't believe the Church has either the right or the responsibility to exclude those with whom they disagree.

 

[nutshell]

You know, none of these arguments matter. The fact is, the Church, as the Body of Christ, is called to be hospitable, gracious, and loving. We don't throw people out. Period. God's laws, if fulfilled properly, do not cause anger, hurt and division. They encourage community, kindness and mercy. God's laws do not take precedence over a person's status or well-being in God's eyes (or in ours!) -- that's what grace is all about.

God wants us to learn to love and accept each other, warts and all. Shunning a person's company does not esclude that person from God's kingdom...we're going to have to deal with those we don't like sooner or later...it might as well be sooner.

At the great banquet table in heaven, I believe we will be seated thusly: On our right will be the person we have hurt the worst. On our left will be the person who has hurt us the worst. We are called to live as if the kingdom were here and now. I don't believe the Church has either the right or the responsibility to exclude those with whom they disagree.

Interesting.

In the LDS church a person might be disfellowshipped or excommunicated, but that does not mean they can't come to church or are not welcome. Usually, these disciplinary measures are part of the repentance process.

 

[sojourner]

Interesting.

In the LDS church a person might be disfellowshipped or excommunicated, but that does not mean they can't come to church or are not welcome. Usually, these disciplinary measures are part of the repentance process.

I'm assuming from you language that the exclusion is part of restoring a person to full communion with the other members? That's not the same dynamic, I think, as what was described in the opening post.

 

[dorcas3000]

The key phrase here is God says. You're not God. Let him say it.
God doesn't need you to reveal his law and preach it. God will inscribe his law on a persons heart REGARDLESS of sexual oreintation. You're supposed to be planting a the seed of love and compassion and God will do the work he wants to be accomplished. You are supposed to be "washing peoples feet" not dictating their faults.

To go along with Mister T

It is not our job to worry about the sin of unbelievers. It's God's job to reveal sin to an individual (this is called CONVICTION by the HOLY SPIRIT) We bring people to God, God does the rest. God does not require someone to be sinless or even aware of their sin in order for them to become a follower. God will let them know.

And why in the world do Christians suck air at unbelievers who sin? People who don't follow God - sin. It's their nature. For heaven's sake, these people are enveloped in sin up to their eyes, they can't swim and they don't even realize their drowning. Here we are standing on the edge of the pool, telling them that they're drowning and yelling at them to swim. We need to throw them the rope, and then let God TEACH them to swim.

 

[dorcas3000]

If you have a brother or sister in Christ who is living in sin, the Bible commands us to talk to them. I don't consider that self-righteous..."finger-pointing"

There is an unbelievably HUGE difference between confronting a brother or sister in Christ and confronting an unbeliever. If you want evidence, look at how Jesus treats 'sinners' versus the way he treats "religious people" in the gospels. Jesus does not hesitate to condemn those who should know better than to hypocritally judge people (the pharisees). However, he hardly EVER wags his finger at sinners.