Christians: They were banned!

[Endless]

I'm sorry but i could not resist posting this after MisterT's last reply.

It's funny (but not suprising) how you completley ignored #5 (the one that gives the Bibles definition of judging) which clearly backed up what Jesus defined as Judging. You're governing to people....which is juding. Keep ignoring that and enjoy the sin that you live in.

Mister_T are you now judging me? Are you guilty of a double standard?
You critise me for hypocrisy which the Bible clearly defines as wrong - i point out homosexuality is wrong and you blast me with the guilt of sinning. In what way is my 'judgement' (in your eyes) of homosexuality, different than your 'judgement' of me with hyprocrisy? I would never ever say that to a homosexual - keep ignoring God's word and enjoy the sin that you live in Yet you too judge me in a far worse way than i ever 'judged' a homosexual - and you don't even know me. You have formed an opinion about me - that i enjoy judging, that i enjoy sin - that i live in sin Are you telling me that my 'judgment' based on what i wrote on this forum is worse than what you have just blasted me with?
Isn't it amazing how blinded we can be - we blast other people for a sin and yet commit that sin ourself - this is hyprocrisy clearly demonstrated from your answers Mister_T.
Let me post up some more of your 'judgements'.

1. You don't realize the very implication of your actions.
2. You are breeding hate.
3. Thank you providing a shining example of how to twist scripture around to suit religious dogma! You do it with my words, why wouldn't you do it with the Bible.

To name but a few. Amazing the double standards and yet i never posted a single reply with such scathing towards homosexuals. Sad in a way i guess, that one can blaze a person for a sin with such judgement and yet in the same instance being guilty of the same sin.
Perhaps this is what Jesus meant when he wrote the following Mister_T:

Lu 6:42 "Or how can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me remove the speck that is in your eye,' when you yourself do not see the plank that is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck that is in your brother's eye.

Yet you are young Mister_T. I'm not going to defend myself much against your reply, save to say that i did not twist your words - you wrote that God does not need us to reveal anything, yet God commands us to share the gospel of the good news of Jesus, which is revealing this to those that know it not. God may not need us to do anything, but he chooses us to magnify him on earth. I will also quote this to you:

Col 1:27
27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.

 

[dorcas3000]

You critise me for hypocrisy which the Bible clearly defines as wrong - i point out homosexuality is wrong and you blast me with the guilt of sinning. In what way is my 'judgement' (in your eyes) of homosexuality, different than your 'judgement' of me with hyprocrisy? I would never ever say that to a homosexual - keep ignoring God's word and enjoy the sin that you live in Yet you too judge me in a far worse way than i ever 'judged' a homosexual - and you don't even know me. You have formed an opinion about me - that i enjoy judging, that i enjoy sin - that i live in sin Are you telling me that my 'judgment' based on what i wrote on this forum is worse than what you have just blasted me with?

There's a difference between "believing that homosexuality is sin" and running around proclaiming to homosexuals and the general public that homosexuals are sinners and banning them from churches. Last I checked, this thread is discussing the latter.

You wrote that God does not need us to reveal anything, yet God commands us to share the gospel of the good news of Jesus, which is revealing this to those that know it not. God may not need us to do anything, but he chooses us to magnify him on earth.

My question is, why does sharing the good news require us to POINT OUT SIN? It is our presence, our actions, and our example that will lead people to conviction of their own sin - NOT US POINTING AT IT.

Example: You go to a restaurant with 3 of your friends. You order first, you order the biggest steak there is on the menu - and some cheesy fries. Everyone else orders salad with ice water. Aren't you far more aware of your unhealthy eating? You friends don't need to tell you that you are clogging your arteries. By their example, you can see how they value taking care of their bodies, and that makes you want to change as well.

Light doesn't need to tell the darkness what it is. Light doesn't do anything, it just is. It is light that reveals the darkness, and reveals what is hidden in the darkness.

 

[nutshell]

I'm assuming from you language that the exclusion is part of restoring a person to full communion with the other members? That's not the same dynamic, I think, as what was described in the opening post.

I expect you're right about that.

 

[Endless]

There's a difference between "believing that homosexuality is sin" and running around proclaiming to homosexuals and the general public that homosexuals are sinners and banning them from churches. Last I checked, this thread is discussing the latter.

There's also a difference between confronting a believer who is in sin and pointing that sin out to them as a Christian brother. Also it is highly unlikely they were banned from the church building - more likely their membership of the church was removed, though they were still welcome in the building for services etc.

My question is, why does sharing the good news require us to POINT OUT SIN? It is our presence, our actions, and our example that will lead people to conviction of their own sin - NOT US POINTING AT IT.

It is only God who can convict a person of their sins. Jesus himself came and told people they had to repent, they had to leave their lives of sin etc. No Christian ever points at sin - they point it out. Then it is up to the person whether they will repent. In either case we are talking about believers here - therefore sharing of the gospel is irrelevant in this case.
Paul writes the following:

Ga 2:11 ¶ Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed;
12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision.
13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

 

[dorcas3000]

quit changing the subject! lol

 

[Mister_T]

Mister_T are you now judging me? Are you guilty of a double standard?

Yes. Absolutley. I'm being a complete hypocrite. I have no right to say anything to you. The difference between you and me is I acknowledge my act of hypocracy and I'm willing to admidt it.

You critise me for hypocrisy which the Bible clearly defines as wrong - i point out homosexuality is wrong and you blast me with the guilt of sinning. In what way is my 'judgement' (in your eyes) of homosexuality, different than your 'judgement' of me with hyprocrisy?

It's no different. But the fact that they are the same should tell you something about what you do.

I would never ever say that to a homosexual - keep ignoring God's word and enjoy the sin that you live in Yet you too judge me in a far worse way than i ever 'judged' a homosexual

You're right. What I said was pretty harsh. but you essentially are telling gay people the same thing by telling them that they are living in their sin and that they don't want to give it up.
-

and you don't even know me. You have formed an opinion about me - that i enjoy judging,

And a gay person feels the same way about you when you preach to them.

that i enjoy sin - that i live in sin

Christians say this about gay people all of the time. For example you said :

perhaps this doesn't apply to those who once profess to be Christians, become members of the Church and yet carry on living in 'sin' as one might call it.

What's the difference?

Are you telling me that my 'judgment' based on what i wrote on this forum is worse than what you have just blasted me with

I am being a little extreme. But how do you think gay people feel when you compare them to child molesters and when people say things like this

The homosexual act is an abomination to God and a sin. And those who commit such acts without regret or repentance after having been informed of the evil of their doings should be rejected.

There is no point having fellowship with those who call good what God has called evil.

Ardstar just called this people evil and essentially called them an abominatation. He said there to reject these people and not have fellowship with these people. That's a lot worse than anything I said.

Isn't it amazing how blinded we can be - we blast other people for a sin and yet commit that sin ourself - this is hyprocrisy clearly demonstrated from your answers Mister_T.

Good hold that thought. Remember this moment well. Remember how negetive I made you feel. I DON'T KNOW YOU AT ALL. AND I'M TELLING YOU THAT YOU'RE WRONG AND THAT GOD BACKS ME ON THIS. I'M NO BETTER THAN YOU ARE AND I'M TELLING YOU YOUR WRONG. REMEMBER THAT MOMENT IN TIME BECUASE THAT'S EXACTLY HOW YOU MAKE GAY PEOPLE FEEL. Isn't it amazing how blinded we can be - we blast other people for a sin and yet commit sin ourself. Kinda pisses ya off huh?

Listen to your own advice.

 

[Mister_T]

Yet you are young Mister_T.

This is irrelevant.

I'm not going to defend myself much against your reply,

Your choice.

save to say that i did not twist your words - you wrote that God does not need us to reveal anything,

I thought I was making my point clear, but I guess not. Let me rephrase; God doesn't need you to preach the law. It is written. People can read it. Pharisee's are ones who preached the law and told others they must follow it.

Jesus himself came and told people they had to repent, they had to leave their lives of sin etc

You're not Jesus.

Perhaps this is what Jesus meant when he wrote the following Mister_T:

That's a good one. Here's another."Let ye who has not sinned cast the first stone" I'm doing the same thing you're doing. Pointing out your sin. I have a plank in my eye and so do you. So stop pointing to others specks

yet God commands us to share the gospel of the good news of Jesus, which is revealing this to those that know it not

Sharing the good news doesn't involve pointing of fingers. It is sharing the fact that our relationship with God is restored through the blood of Christ.

Look, I respect your stance on the subject. I just disagree with your methods.

 

[sojourner]

The homosexual act is an abomination to God and a sin. And those who commit such acts without regret or repentance after having been informed of the evil of their doings should be rejected.

There is no point having fellowship with those who call good what God has called evil.

I don't know who posted this...I haven't kept up with the thread, but it doesn't matter. What snobbery and judgment are exhibited here! This is cogent to Jesus' teaching and example how? These kinds of statements really grieve me, because they make me part of a fellowship that propagates elitism and division. These kinds of statements even spawn acrimony amongst us on this forum.

Sad. Really, really sad to think that the Body of Christ could be sullied by such small-mindedness.

 

[michel]

I agree with Angellous...we don't have all the facts, so it's pretty hard to pass judgement "yea" or "nay" on this.

Watch you don't get splinters sitting on the fence!-Joking

If the story is as represented, yes, it is an atrocity. Mind you I have heard stories about very un-Christian like priests; people are people, after all.

If it is true, then it's a great shame.

 

[w00t]

It is very sad indeed that people are so bigoted, especially as God said nothing of the sort. Any anti gay comments in the Bible reflect the prejudice of he writers and have NOTHING to do with God who has never expressed an opinion!

 

[kevmicsmi]

Wasn't there some objection made to the sort of reprobates Jesus was hanging out with?
Didn't he point out that his purpose was to preach to the sinners rather than the righteous?

Completely agree, from the churches perspective, I dont think anyone should be excluded except if these people were trying to proselithize the congregation against church beliefs. That might have been the case.

 

[Endless]

Mister_T - i was able to tell you were young without even looking at your details. I only looked them up after i posted my reply - i was correct. The reason i was correct is because your response was that of someone who is immature.

Mister_T - i have absolutely no doubt that you did not realise that you were judging me in a far worse way than you claimed i judged homosexuals from my replies. You also claimed i enjoyed it and that i lived in sin because of it. That is a prime example of pointing the finger and coming to a conclusion you could not possibly come to without knowing me.
However all i did was acknowledge that homosexuality was a sin. How can God back you when you actually are judging in exactly the way Jesus warned so much against doing?

Let me tell you exactly what i would do where i to know someone well enough who claimed to be a believer yet lived in a sin such as homosexuality. I would go to the person and in conversation ask them do they not know that God classifies homosexuality as a sin, therefore being a Christian how can they still be living in sin. He would respond in whatever way he chooses - yet i would still be his friend and carry on being his friend. I pointed it out to him - but i have not judged him. I do this because the Bible tells me that God's word is useful for warning people. What are my motives in doing this Mister_T - because i am concerned for my friend and don't want him living in sin, hurting God. I will not blast him with scathing remarks such as you did, neither will i tell him - 'enjoy living in your sin' - how could i ever say such a thing to someone that i cared about? I could not possibly do this - because i am not there to judge him, merely to warn him as someone who cares about him.
Now if that is judgement as Jesus is talking about - then yes, i am sinning. But the simple fact is that this is not judgement and it is done with absolutely no malice intended. I have not judged Mister_T, but you in your replies have provided a prime example of exactly the judgement Jesus in condemning - yet you attempt to justify your sin in doing this by saying that 'i acknowledge it'? What kind of reply is that - you just blast me for judging but it is you in doing so that is judging? I don't understand your position at all. I have never replied to someone in the way that you have replied to me on this forum - i have never judged someone like that - i could not.

As regards to you claiming that i am not Jesus - therefore he could do it but i am not allowed....we are told to be imatators of Christ in the Bible.

Good hold that thought. Remember this moment well. Remember how negetive I made you feel. I DON'T KNOW YOU AT ALL. AND I'M TELLING YOU THAT YOU'RE WRONG AND THAT GOD BACKS ME ON THIS. I'M NO BETTER THAN YOU ARE AND I'M TELLING YOU YOUR WRONG. REMEMBER THAT MOMENT IN TIME BECUASE THAT'S EXACTLY HOW YOU MAKE GAY PEOPLE FEEL.

But i don't make Gay people feel that way because i would never say something like this to them. In anycase you did not make me feel bad in anysort of way - i got the impression you wrote the post in anger and that you were young. All was immediately forgiven as far as i was concerned.

 

[Mister_T]

You know, I find utterly amazing how many times you get off topic and and go off on another tangent.

Mister_T - i was able to tell you were young without even looking at your details. I only looked them up after i posted my reply - i was correct. The reason i was correct is because your response was that of someone who is immature.

My age is irrelevant. Old people can be immature as well as ignorant. Your remark is baseless. You're entitled to your opinions, but this has absolutley nothing to do with the topic at hand. Please stay on topic. (Which apparently is a challenge for you)

You also claimed i enjoyed it and that i lived in sin because of it.

Once again, this came from your own words

become members of the Church and yet carry on living in 'sin' as one might call it.

I told you you live in sin. You tell gay people they live in sin. What's the difference? If I called you a hypocrite nicely would that change your opinion about yourself? I doubt it. Christians are under the impression that they don't give up being gay because they enjoy it. You think they enjoy all of the negetivity that's being thrown at them? I love how you completley ignored this point along with many others.

That is a prime example of pointing the finger and coming to a conclusion you could not possibly come to without knowing me.

You fail to realize that it doesn't matter how nice you are, how holy you think you are, when you, a person who's not perfect, who is in no position to be making any kind of remarks about they're personal life, tell them that what they're doing is wrong, this is how they feel about you.

However all i did was acknowledge that homosexuality was a sin

There is nothing wrong with that. You're entitled to your opinion.

Let me tell you exactly what i would do where i to know someone well enough who claimed to be a believer yet lived in a sin such as homosexuality. I would go to the person and in conversation ask them do they not know that God classifies homosexuality as a sin, therefore being a Christian how can they still be living in sin. He would respond in whatever way he chooses - yet i would still be his friend and carry on being his friend. I pointed it out to him - but i have not judged him. I do this because the Bible tells me that God's word is useful for warning people. What are my motives in doing this Mister_T - because i am concerned for my friend and don't want him living in sin, hurting God. I will not blast him with scathing remarks such as you did, neither will i tell him - 'enjoy living in your sin' - how could i ever say such a thing to someone that i cared about? I could not possibly do this - because i am not there to judge him, merely to warn him as someone who cares about him.

That's great. I can see you have good motives. But Like I said put yourself in their shoes. Take what I've been doing to you now for example. If I told you that you were being a hypocrite in the nicest possible way, How would you take it? Especially if you didn't believe that you were not being a hypocrite and you were quite set in stone about it? What if I continually kept telling you. And then I got others to keep telling you and so on. How would you take that if you were 100% sure that you were not being a hypocrite?

yet you attempt to justify your sin in doing this by saying that 'i acknowledge it'?

I never said it was justified becuase I acknowledge it. And what's the difference between what I'm doing to you and what people are doing to gays? It's ok to kick gays out of a church becuase they fail to recognize their homosexual sin, but you guys are JUSTIFIED and can stay becasue you recognize yours?! What I'm doing to you is no different than what other Christians are doing to gays.

I'm not saying that you do this. But you do support it.

As regards to you claiming that i am not Jesus - therefore he could do it but i am not allowed....we are told to be imatators of Christ in the Bible.

Where in the Bible did JESUS grant you the authority to point out others sins? Read that quote from Matthew that you posted and you'll see what he thinks about that. I've got a plank in my eye you've got a plank in your eye. You can't tell someone to take the speck out of their eye when you have a plank in your own. You can't tell a gay person to stop sinning when you yourself commit sin every day. Jeus could tell people to stop sinning because he was perfect. You are not.

Jesus told us to spread the news about our restored relationship with God. He did not grant us his authority to openly call people sinners.

But i don't make Gay people feel that way because i would never say something like this to them.

Maybe you should try your method on a few gay people on this forum. I'm sure they'd dissagree

In anycase you did not make me feel bad in anysort of way

And that was not my intention. I was merely trying to give you an idea of how gay people react to your message.

got the impression you wrote the post in anger and that you were young. All was immediately forgiven as far as i was concerned.

Forgiven for what? Pointing out a blatent hypocracy? Forgive yourself. Yes there was anger in my posts. People are completly oblivious to the impact of their words. This makes me angry. It's probably not the best way to deal with things but like everything it's a work in progress. My age is irrelevant and it does not make my points any less valid like you're trying to make it seem. It seems like that is your way of coping out instead of addressing the numerous points that I've made which you have so easiley ignored.

So we can either debate at the issue at hand, or if you're not willing to address the points that I brought up, we can call it a day.

 

[dorcas3000]

You tell gay people they live in sin. Christians are under the impression that they don't give up being gay because they enjoy it. You think they enjoy all of the negetivity that's being thrown at them?

Well said. :clap I can't imagine being told that my own sexuality was a sin. It's not a matter of "Oh really, I'll just change my sexual orientation, then!" If a gay person becomes a Christian, how dare anyone hold their sin against them - as if they are not a good enough Christian. The changes don't happen instantaneously. We all struggle with sin, and it takes a lifetime to even begin to deal with it. Just because it's a "sin" that envelops an individual's entire lifestyle doesn't mean it's easier to change.

If you have a friend who's gay and Christian, sit down and talk with them about how they feel about it. How do they view the scriptures on homosexuality? Encourage them to pray endlessly about it, not out of guilt or shame - but simply faith. Just because someone still sins doesn't mean that God isn't working in their hearts!!!!!!

If a particular homosexual isn't your friend, your should just love him or her. That is all.

 

[Mister_T]

If you have a friend who's gay and Christian, sit down and talk with them about how they feel about it. How do they view the scriptures on homosexuality? Encourage them to pray endlessly about it, not out of guilt or shame - but simply faith. Just because someone still sins doesn't mean that God isn't working in their hearts!!!

Amen! This is a SO much better approach. This is a loving approach. Our job is plant the seed of God's goodness and compassion. It is God who waters that seed and makes it blossom into the person that he wants them to be. THAT IS THE GOSPEL!:highfive: .

Endless: Do you see the difference? Is there a flaw you see in this method? Would you care to put nasty posts behind us and start over?

 

[Mister_T]

Keep ignoring that and enjoy the sin that you live in.

I apologize for this. This came off the the wrong way. Taken in context it was a bit uncalled for.

 

[w00t]

I hope it wont be long before it is as wrong to discriminate against people because of their sexuality as it is to discriminate against them because of their race. In the UK you cannot discriminate against a gay person in public life. For instance you can't refuse someone a job because they are gay. Gay people can now adopt here too. The sort of parents they will make is far more important than their sexuality.

 

[Adstar]

It strikes me that fundies get off on the perceived sins of others! How can homosexuality possibly be a sin when most homosexuals are born that way, just as I was born a heterosexual? If one believes that God created folk, one must believe he created them gay, straight or bi! It is the sort of person you are that counts, not your sexuality.

But we are all born to be sinners.

Some people are born with addictive personalities does that make alcoholism good? Others are born with short tempers does that make violence good? No. What is sin is sin no matter if we are born with one sin tendency or we are born with another sin tendency. The whole concept that something is good because we are born with the tendency is false.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

READ NUMBER 5 OVER VERY CAREFULLY. If your on trial for theft, your neighbor can't judge you and call you a thief. You're neighbor can't sentence you in his living room. The only person who can do that is the appointed judge of the county. The lawmakers. Guess what? You're not the lawmaker. You have no right to say anything to anyone.

Sorry dude, but as we can see by definition, you and eveyone who's does what you do is judging. And that's God's job not yours. God doesn't need you to restate his rules. He doesn't need a teachers pet to run around and tattle tale on everyone. If he did we wouldn't need the Bible.

Of course He needs us to reveal His will. How many people read the Bible? Did Jesus not say to give the Words of God to the World. Yes it is true that God will judge and it is our Job to give people what they need to accept Jesus to save them from that Judgement. I give what the Bible has given me to give. But it is God whom will judge those who reject what the messenger gives.

I have no power, Nor do i see any power to inflict punishment upon anyone for their sins. But i can and will reveal to others why they need Jesus.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

The homosexual act is an abomination to God and a sin. And those who commit such acts without regret or repentance after having been informed of the evil of their doings should be rejected.

There is no point having fellowship with those who call good what God has called evil.

I don't know who posted this...I haven't kept up with the thread, but it doesn't matter. What snobbery and judgment are exhibited here! This is cogent to Jesus' teaching and example how? These kinds of statements really grieve me, because they make me part of a fellowship that propagates elitism and division. These kinds of statements even spawn acrimony amongst us on this forum.

Sad. Really, really sad to think that the Body of Christ could be sullied by such small-mindedness.

I said this and i stand by it. We are all sinners there is no snobbery in what i said. It is not small mindedness it is revealing the truth about the act of homosexuality. It is a sin. And therefore must be recognised as such and repented of.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days