Christians: They were banned!

[sojourner]

What?? Sojourner you are greatly mistaken. Perhaps you should actually look at the 'law' through the cultural lense of the people and see how they preceived it. There was the moral law which they viewed as a standard for all people - ie. what is and what is not sin. And there was the ceremonial law with all its rules and regulations which applied to the Israelites. The purpose of the ceremonial law was to show that they could never live up to God's holy standard (hence the reason they had to keep on sacrificing) but all of this was a foreshadow of what Christ would accomplish on the cross.
Have a read of Hebrews chapter 8 and see for yourself - the book of Hebrews focuses an awful lot on the law that the Israelites followed and explains why it needs no longer to be followed after Christ died for us on the cross. But this obviously has no implications of there no longer being such a thing as sin -since the Bible still talks about it. If there were no law then there would not be any sin - but since there is still sin talked about and taught in the New Testament after Christ died...well it fits in perfectly with the law that was nailed to the cross being the ceremonial law - because Christ foreshadowed it. It's no longer needed having served it's purpose. I'm not about to go into a load of detail about this, but for someone claiming to having such an awareness of culture you do seem to have missed how the law was seen through those living in that culture.



Of course it isn't ok - we have Paul condemning it who was from that culture. In anycase just because the Bible doesnt specifically classify a certain act as a sin doesn't mean it isn't one - what about peadophilia? Drugs? etc etc.



It doesn't matter -if the Bible was God breathed and it says something is sin (rebellion against God) then no matter what the culture of the people was, if God breathed it then he didn't lie. Because in essense that is what you are saying God must have done - he inspired something which was a lie - homosexuality was not an abomination.
Again you are looking from the viewpoint that their culture dictated God's word - when perhaps you should consider the point that God's word dictated their own culture. It was certainly a different culture to the one in the countries about them - whose culture it was to practise child sacrificing, homosexuality and sexual immorality etc etc. Therefore their beliefs were based on what God inspired them to write - and their culture was based on what God inspired. It is not the other way around - their culture did not inspire what God breathed.



They disfellowshipped believers who refused to acknowledge that what they were doing was wrong - based on what God inspired in the Bible. They did look at it in the proper manner - because the Hebrew culture was based on what God had said - not the other way around. This is also the reason why your faith crumbles when you apply your own logic to it - it cannot stand up for the reasons i gave in a post further on up.
No, you will find that God's word defined the culture - not the other way around.

We could make this thread as your name says...I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. I think your argument here is weak and naieve. Your basing your argument upon what is written on the page, which I've shown is insufficient. You don't buy into that. Fine. I still hold out for Christians acting with love and acceptance, no matter the condition or disposition of their fellows.

 

[Endless]

Yep agree to disagree

My closing comment would be - that what is written on the page was breathed of God, therefore if God breathed the fact that homosexuality was an abomination then God lied if you are correct. My position is that God breathed something which the Israelites built into their culture - their culture did not determine what God breathed. If that is a weak arguement then fair enough, but once you allow yourself to choose what was and what was not inspired (ie. true today) then as a standard to follow the Bible becomes meaningless, so does Jesus' death and everything else. It is like a pyramid of cards - remove the bottom card and it all comes down.
But each to his own opinion and i respect that choice you have.
Good debating this with you Sojourner.

 

[Mykola]

...everyone is invited to come to Christ and God, not just the ones who happen to fit certain criteria!

Putting Methodists aside, I would like to comment on 'everyone's invited'.

Everyone's invited to do what? To repent and be baptized. To repent means to forsake sins.
So, if someone wants to come to Christ, he needs to repent his sins first and of course not be practicing them again... and of course not show them off!

How can one tell that he's come to Christ if he persists in sin?

 

[sojourner]

Putting Methodists aside, I would like to comment on 'everyone's invited'.

Everyone's invited to do what? To repent and be baptized. To repent means to forsake sins.
So, if someone wants to come to Christ, he needs to repent his sins first and of course not be practicing them again... and of course not show them off!

How can one tell that he's come to Christ if he persists in sin?

First of all, your statement, "everyone's invited to repent and be baptized" smacks of Christian elitism to me. In my opinion, everyone is invited into God's kingdom, baptized into the Church, or not.:hug:

second, we cannot agree that homosexuality is inherently sinful. That's the issue here: is it right for a church to deny access to some, based upon their sexual orientation?

 

[Geoffthe3rd]

No, and plus its really none of their buisness, i mean its not like they go around sleeping with them all


:disco: - I just wanted to use it lol

 

[vijaya babu]

Being gay is wrong as paul said. It is against the biblical marriage. Whatever that Methodist Church defined the 'Openness' in their principles, that must not be against the God's Commandments. So, Please refer the Bible, whenever this things are to be clarified. The God wants us to be holy, as commanded by him. Thank you.

 

[sojourner]

Being gay is wrong as paul said. It is against the biblical marriage. Whatever that Methodist Church defined the 'Openness' in their principles, that must not be against the God's Commandments. So, Please refer the Bible, whenever this things are to be clarified. The God wants us to be holy, as commanded by him. Thank you.

Yet, there are vast differences in interpretation as to "what the Bible says." Your statement that "being gay is wrong, as Paul said. It is against Biblical marriage" is one interpretation. I (and others) don't happen to share that interpretation. Jesus speaks not one time about homosexuality. How can the Church (the Body of Christ) reject these people, when we don't really know how Christ would respond to the issue?

 

[Geoffthe3rd]

As far as i know its only wrong to practice homosexuality, not to be homosexual

 

[spookboy0]

I believe I mentioned this in another thread (I can't remember which it was). But a few weeks ago there was a gay couple who was banned from their church on the basis of the fact that they were gay. All I know about it is that somehow the pastor found out about it and forced them from the church. And if that weren't enough the Council of Bishops (the highest rank of the Methodist Church) is backing up the pastor's decision.

This decision just flew in the face of the "Open Hearts; Open Minds; Open doors" policy of the Methodist Church. And the ones who broke the policy are the ones who came up with it! Hypocrites!! I cannot believe they would just walk away from the very teachings the Methodists hold so dear! One being that everyone is invited to come to Christ and God, not just the ones who happen to fit certain criteria! :verymad:

What are your thoughts on this situation? As you probably have realized now I think it is an atrocity!

yeah it does seem hypocritical, but it doesn't really "fly in the face" of the principal.
​

Of course, the motto reads "open hearts, open minds, open doors" however it doesn't say what they're open to. So they could be open to anything from suggestions to kicking people out, I don't know. I also don't know how the Methodists view homosexuality.

However I do know that the couple should listen to the church's reasoning and the church should listen to the couple's. But then that would open a completely different discussion. I also know that the church isn't going to conform to the couple. Or it shouldn't conform, at least.
​

 

[Katzpur]

As far as i know its only wrong to practice homosexuality, not to be homosexual

That would be my take on the subject. Even so, I see heterosexual sex outside as marriage to be as sinful as homosexual sex -- which is something few people would agree with me on. Since I am not personally affected by other people's sexual behavior, I just tend to leave the judging up to God.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

That would be my take on the subject. Even so, I see heterosexual sex outside as marriage to be as sinful as homosexual sex -- which is something few people would agree with me on. Since I am not personally affected by other people's sexual behavior, I just tend to leave the judging up to God.

I am not sure I quite agree with that.
I would say sexulal relations out side marriage are sinful.
It begs the question as to if homosexual marriage is possable in religious terms.

I can find no fault with it in lay terms.

Certainly God will be involved some where in this.

Terry
___________________________________
Blessed are the merciful, mercy shall be shown unto them.

 

[Bishka]

I am not sure I quite agree with that.
I would say sexulal relations out side marriage are sinful.
It begs the question as to if homosexual marriage is possable in religious terms.

I can find no fault with it in lay terms.

Certainly God will be involved some where in this.

Terry
___________________________________
Blessed are the merciful, mercy shall be shown unto them.

Terry!!!! You are back I hope! Nice to see you.

 

[jeffrey]

I think every case is different. To me, a marriage certificate is just a piece of paper. A legal document. I believe you can be married in God's eyes without ever having a marriage license. It's what's in yout heart. Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and God what is God's.

 

[Lindsey-Loo]

Yet, there are vast differences in interpretation as to "what the Bible says." Your statement that "being gay is wrong, as Paul said. It is against Biblical marriage" is one interpretation. I (and others) don't happen to share that interpretation. Jesus speaks not one time about homosexuality. How can the Church (the Body of Christ) reject these people, when we don't really know how Christ would respond to the issue?

So you believe that if Jesus didn't say it, it must not be true?

 

[Katzpur]

I am not sure I quite agree with that.
I would say sexulal relations out side marriage are sinful.
It begs the question as to if homosexual marriage is possable in religious terms.

I can find no fault with it in lay terms.

Certainly God will be involved some where in this.

Terry! Hello! I am so glad to see you again.

In reading your comments, I'm not quite sure where we disagree. It sounds to me as if our respective points of view are really pretty similar. I don't believe homosexual marriage is possible from a religious perspective. I believe that marriage is a holy covenant ordained by God, and that it is to be between a man and a woman. But as I've said on other occasions, I am not opposed to civil unions between consenting adults. I see no reason to deny anyone his civil rights simply because I don't personally agree with his sexual preference.

 

[Katzpur]

I think every case is different. To me, a marriage certificate is just a piece of paper. A legal document. I believe you can be married in God's eyes without ever having a marriage license. It's what's in yout heart. Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and God what is God's.

I disagree. Marriage is divinely appointed, in my opinion. The certificate itself is just a piece of paper, yes. But it is a piece of paper that implies a commitment that is stronger than, "Well, let's just shack up and see how things work out." Let's face it. For the most part -- and I won't say there aren't exceptions -- people who are willing to legalize their marriages are more committed to making them last than are those who aren't willing to make that solemn promise before God and humanity. It's a whole lot easier to just walk out when the going gets tough if you're just the live-in boyfriend or girlfriend than if you have committed to be someone's lifelong partner and have "a piece of paper" stating that this is your intention.

 

[sojourner]

So you believe that if Jesus didn't say it, it must not be true?

Don't twist my words. The issue of homosexuality was so important to Jesus that he mentions it not once. Why is it such an anathema for us, his Body?

 

[Mykola]

First of all, your statement, "everyone's invited to repent and be baptized" smacks of Christian elitism to me. In my opinion, everyone is invited into God's kingdom, baptized into the Church, or not.:hug:

Everyone is invited... Let's see...

Paul in 1 Co 6:9-10 writes: "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

Who are effeminate, how d'you think?
What are abusers of themselves with mankind (in Greek it's just arsenokoites - sodomites)?

Don't be deceived, sojourner...

Still, I don't want to promote being rude with homosexuals, but it's obviously for any person to decide whether to blatantly persist in sin or to be a follower of Christ, subject of the "kingdom of priests", which is God's Church.

second, we cannot agree that homosexuality is inherently sinful.

Still cannot agree? Even after having read 1 Co 6:9-10?

That's the issue here: is it right for a church to deny access to some, based upon their sexual orientation?

If you want to discuss this, just tell me please what you think those people (banned afterwards) have come to the church for?
What was their purpose of coming to this church? What d'you think?

 

[Lindsey-Loo]

The issue of homosexuality was so important to Jesus that he mentions it not once.

Jesus didn't talk about a lot of things we might consider important, but they are still elsewhere in the Bible. I don't pick out Jesus's words and say the things in them are more important than the rest of the Bible. I think everything in the Bible is important, no matter who said it. And I think we should follow all of the Bible, not just the things Jesus said.

 

[sojourner]

Everyone is invited... Let's see...

Paul in 1 Co 6:9-10 writes: "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

Who are effeminate, how d'you think?
What are abusers of themselves with mankind (in Greek it's just arsenokoites - sodomites)?

Don't be deceived, sojourner...

Still, I don't want to promote being rude with homosexuals, but it's obviously for any person to decide whether to blatantly persist in sin or to be a follower of Christ, subject of the "kingdom of priests", which is God's Church.



Still cannot agree? Even after having read 1 Co 6:9-10?



If you want to discuss this, just tell me please what you think those people (banned afterwards) have come to the church for?
What was their purpose of coming to this church? What d'you think?

"Praise awaits you, O God, in Zion; to you our vows will be fulfilled. O you who hear prayer, to you all men will come." (Psalm 65:1-2)

"Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make by bed in the depths, you are there." (Psalm 139:7-8)

"The Lord is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and rich in love. The Lord is good to all; he has compassion on all he has made. All you have made will praise you, O Lord." (Psalm 145:8-10)

"On this mountain the Lord Almighty will prepare a feast of rich food of all peoples, a banquet of aged wine -- the best of meats and finest of wines. On this mountain he will destroy the shroud that enfolds all peoples, the sheet that covers all nations; he will swallow up death for ever. The Sovereign Lord will wipe away tears from all faces; he will remove the discrace of he people from all the earth." (Is. 25:6-8)

"No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the Lord. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." (Jer. 31:34)

"I will not carry out my fierce anger, nor will I turn and devastate Ephraim. For I am God, and not man -- the Holy One among you. I will not come in wrath." (Hos. 11:9)

"Your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost." (Matt. 18:14)

"All mankind will see God's salvation." (Lk. 3:6)

"Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it?" (Lk. 15:4)

"The Son of Man came to seek and save what was lost." (Lk. 19:10)

"God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." (Jn. 3:17)

"When I am lifted up, I will draw all men to myself." (Jn. 12:32)

"[Christ] must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets." (Acts 3:21)

"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." (Romans 3:23-24)

"I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything in all of creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 8:38-39)

Shall I go on? All will be brought in.

You know, not all homosexuals engage in sodomy...

I don't think the morality of homosexuality is clear in scripture. I think it's a cultural issue...not a moral issue. I think that's the responsible way to interpret what's written there. I don't think these people thought of themselves as engaging in sin.

Why did those people come to church? To be welcomed by fellow Christians and to worship with fellow Christians, of course! After all, the Methodist "slogan" is "open hearts, open minds, open doors." Do they mean it, or don't they? Or are they now being selective as to who Christ invites?