Christians who deny Christ's divinity/Trinity

[Katzpur]

Lol.:frog:

Could you explain the joke to me, please?

 

[Iti oj]

Could you explain the joke to me, please?

me tooo ohh cute frog

 

[Rathus]

We don't have anything quite like a Catholic Catechism, but this paragraph pretty much sums it up:

In a 2007 statement issued by the Church, the following guidelines were given as to what constitutes LDS doctrine:

Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted.

Some doctrines are more important than others and might be considered core doctrines. For example, the precise location of the Garden of Eden is far less important than doctrine about Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice. The mistake that public commentators often make is taking an obscure teaching that is peripheral to the Church’s purpose and placing it at the very center. This is especially common among reporters or researchers who rely on how other Christians interpret Latter-day Saint doctrine.

And what do you do when half of your scriptures contradict the other half? For example, the Bible and Book of Mormon both teach Monotheism while the D&C and PoGP teach Polytheism. How do you reconcile the differences?

 

[Katzpur]

And what do you do when half of your scriptures contradict the other half? For example, the Bible and Book of Mormon both teach Monotheism while the D&C and PoGP teach Polytheism. How do you reconcile the differences?

I'd need specific examples to know what you're thinking of. I think I've already explained the way in which we believe the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are "one" well enough that for us, there is no contradiction, and well enough that you could probably answer this question yourself. If you apply what I've said to our scriptures, it should be reasonably clear.

Merry Christmas!

 

[javajo]

No official LDS doctrines contradict the Bible, javajo. Not a single one. Some statements from past LDS leaders do appear to contradict the Bible, but they are merely the personal opinions of the men who made them, and do not represent LDS doctrine. This is why I specifically posted the Church's statement on what is and what is not official doctrine in my post #39. It's important to make the distinction between offical doctrine and someone's interpretation of doctrine. You've always been respectful of my beliefs, and it's not my intention to try to change your beliefs. I just want you to know that not everything ever said by any Mormon (even one in a high position) is considered doctrine, and that when you say that certain LDS core doctrines contradict the Bible, you are wrong. You just have to know what is and what is not LDS doctrine.

I understand that and will try to address it below.

I take it at its word, too. I believe God is spirit, and I believe that a spirit is a life force. God is the source of all life.

Agreed.

If 'the phrase "as one of us" refers to the plurality of God as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit' (what the scriptures refer to as the Godhead), why can't "they, the Gods" mean exactly that -- the Father, Son and Holy Spirit? Jesus Christ created our universe under His Father's direction. That's what the Bible teaches (Hebrews 1:1-2), and I assume you believe it. If God the Father were to address His Son, could He not refer to Him as "God"? We know that the Son referred to His Father as "God."

There is only one God is clear teaching from the Bible. So one God of three persons makes more sense than three Gods.

Well, it pretty clearly says we were created in His image, after His likeness. I know you don't interpret that literally, but I do. One of the reasons I do is that just a couple of chapters after the creation account, the Bible says that Adam had a son who was "in His image, after His likeness." The same exact wording was used to imply that Adam had a son that bore a physical resemblance to him, that just as Adam had a human form, so did his offspring. In the New Testament, we are told that Jesus Christ was "the express image of His [Father's] person." And even with that evidence, you deny that the Father has the image of a person. I just don't get it.

I do believe we were created in his image, not his exact likeness and we are mere humans but I believe God the Father is far more than mere glorified human. I'll get into it more in a minute.

So is God the Father just 1/3 God, God the Son also just 1/3 God and God the Holy Spirit also just 1/3 God? You can't very well say that each one is God in full and not 1/3 God, and then turn around and say that there's only one God. That's an outright contradiction.

The contradiction is saying there are more than one God when the Bible clearly states there is only one God, whom I believe is made up of three persons who are all fully God and who make up the one God. While he desires us to be in his family, he already is a family.

So you believe that "as one of us" is referring to the plurality of God, but "they (the Gods)" is not? Why isn't it? I'm sorry, but the word "plurality" definitely means more than one.

I believe that God is one God of three persons, hence plurality. Again there is only one God.

Whether he believed it or not doesn't matter. It's not in the LDS canon and you could attend LDS Church services every Sunday for the rest of your life and never hear it taught. What does that tell you? (Here's what it should tell you: We teach our doctrines. We don't teach anything about God's beginnings. If this were an LDS doctrine, you can be sure we'd be teaching it, and not infrequently.)

It is inferred in the statements below which I will get to.

At any rate, the Bible starts out "in the beginning," before the clock started ticking, so to speak. There was a time before the creation of our universe. Surely you wouldn't disagree with me on that point. But the Bible doesn't say anything at all about what was happening before "the beginning." Obviously something was going on. Let's just say, hypothetically speaking, that Mormons believed something that was happening before "the beginning," it wouldn't be contradicting the Bible, because the Bible is silent on what was happening before "the beginning," and you can't contradict something that isn't even mentioned.

The Bible mentions some things like the fall of Satan and the angels which I believe happened before the creation as I believe Satan was in the serpent in the garden as he is the father of lies. Anyway, I believe God created man to love and bring into his family and ultimately glorify us to take part in his Kingdom in part to teach those fallen angels a few lessons and that is partly why Satan and the demons hate humans so. The problem with your teachings before the beginning I have is that they do contradict the Bible because there is only one God who has always been God. Not only one God to US or that is eternal as far as WE understand, but one eternal God, period. Basically, teaching (whether one says its official or not) that God has a human body, or he was once a man who became a God and stood before a council of Gods and now has his own planet and we are his spirit babies and one day we too, will be a God of our own planet and have spirit babies who will fill that planet and so on and so on is at the root of things. I do not believe that way and although you may deny it, that is the root of it. I believe God has always been God and we were created at conception and before we trusted Christ were described as children of darkness, wrath and of the Devil in the Bible. Jesus is the only begotten of God and was with him in the beginning and has always coexisted with God. I do not believe we will be Gods over our own planets but will live with and serve the one true God here on a new earth forever as the Bible says.

That's an interesting way of putting it. The Bible says that Jesus Christ ascended into Heaven as His Apostles watched. It says He will return in like form. So you believe Jesus Christ has a body right now?

Yes, a glorified body like we will have at the Rapture (or at 1 Thess. 4, 1 Cor. 15 event).

Me too. But you make a distinction between God the Son and God the Father. While God the Son was here on earth, where was God the Father? If God the Son had a corporeal body and God the Father did not, how could they be a single substance? A substance cannot be two contradictory things -- i.e. both corporeal and non-corporeal.

We are limited in our understanding to some extent are we not? Like teaching an ant the internet. God is omnipresent, like Jesus saw Nathaniel under the tree before he got there and could tell what people were thinking, etc. There is no problem there for me.

That's fine. You can believe that if you want, but there is no where in the Bible where this is taught. On the other hand, there are a number of clues in the Bible to the contrary. I'll tell you what they are if you're interested.

You have to believe that for the rest of your beliefs to work. I believe only Jesus is God's Son, not just unique, but only. He said he only was in Heaven with God and has seen him, we were not there as spirit children and have not seen the Father except through the Son.

I guess this is something on which we will simply have to agree to disagree, but you'll have to admit that the Bible does not clearly say one way or the other.

Ok, but I believe only Christ descended from Heaven, not us. See, God formed Adam and breathed life into him, it doesn't say a spirit descended into him. We have life from God passed down from Adam when we are conceived. We are created beings as opposed to Christ who was the only begotten Son, emphasis on only.

I'd have to agree with you there. No man has ascended to Heaven but Christ. The rest who have died are currently in the spirit realm awaiting their resurrections and final judgment.

Cool. I believe this spirit realm is heaven as Jesus will come with them in the air and they will receive their resurrected bodies then we who are alive and remain will and then we shall be with the Lord for a time in Heaven where he has gone to prepare a place for us that where he is we may be also, until we come back to earth to reign and then live forever with him on the new earth, again not our own planet.

 

[javajo]

The Trinity is a concept that first came to be established as the result of a council called by a non-Christian emperor with a political agenda. Nobody in 34 A.D. believed in a God that was defined as the creeds would describe Him several hundreds of years later. There is nothing in the Bible to imply that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three persons which cannot be confounded (whatever that means) comprising a single substance, which cannot be divided. Clearly, if the Father was in Heaven while the Son was on Earth, the substance was divided. At one point, this substance even supposedly forsook itself. Now that's a good trick.

Here is what we believe about the Godhead. Regardless of the fact that you will undoubtedly disagree with what we believe, I don't believe you can prove any of it to be contradictory to what the Bible has to say about God. (Yes, it does contradict the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds. I'd be the first to admit that.)

I'm sure there have been thousands of posts on the Trinity, so I'll be very brief. Its not just from a pagan emperor with an agenda. There are many quotes by church fathers as early as the 2nd century who believed "these three are one" and we are to witness and baptize in the name (singular) of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Anyway they comprise the one true God, they are not three separate gods.

Our first Article of Faith states: We believe in God the Eternal Father, and in His Son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost. We believe that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh. While we believe that God is the Father of the spirits of each and every person who has ever lived, and that we are all His spirit offspring, Jesus Christ is most definitely in a class by Himself. He was with His Father in the beginning. Under His Father's direction, He created worlds without number. He was chosen to be "the Lamb" prior to the foundation of this world. He sits today on the right hand of His Father. Along with the Holy Ghost, the Father and the Son make up the Godhead.

I do not agree with the part that says God is the Father of our spirits and we are his "spirit offspring" except in the sense as I stated above. This is a key difference and essential to the other teachings you say are not official doctrine but are a result of this teaching here. I believe Jesus did create worlds without number on the fourth day, but not for us to be gods over, as we will live forever with him on the new earth.

We believe that our Father in Heaven and His Son Jesus Christ have a true father-son relationship. The words, "Father" and "Son," in other words, mean exactly what they say. They are not metaphorical or symbolic of a vague metaphysical relationship, in which two beings are some how both part of a single essence. We are each the physical sons and daughters of our mortal parents. Jesus Christ is the literal, physical Son of a divine Father and a mortal Mother. He was conceived in a miraculous way, but like all sons, was in the "express image of His Father's person." That is to say, He looked like Him. Dogs beget puppies, and cats beget kittens. God beget a Son who is the same species as He is. They both have bodies of flesh and bone (although, until His birth in Bethlehem, Jesus Christ was a spirit being only).

Again, close, but I do not believe God the Father is in a human body, only the Son who took on a human body and is still in his glorified human body. Before that Jesus was the Logos or Word who was with God and was God (not a god).

The Father and the Son are physically distinct from one another, and yet they are also "one." This doctrine is taught in the Book of Mormon as well as in the Bible. We just understand the word "one" to mean something other than physical substance or essence. We believe they are "one in will and purpose, one in mind and heart, and one in power and glory." It would be impossible to explain, or even to understand, the degree of their unity. It is perfect; it is absolute. They think, feel and act as "one God." Because of this perfect unity, and because they share the title of "God," we think of them together in this way. It would be impossible for us to worship one of them without also worshipping the other.

Thus the belief they are two gods which is blasphemy as there is only one.

Most Christians also use the words “co-equal” and “co-eternal” to describe the relationship between the Father and the Son. We do not. We believe that, as is again the case with all fathers and sons, the Father existed prior to His Son. No son's existence precedes his father's, and Jesus Christ is no exception to this rule. We also believe Christ to be subordinate to His Father. He is divine because of His relationship with His Father. It is, however, important to understand what we mean when we use the word "subordinate." We understand that the Son holds a subordinate position in the relationship; we do not believe Him to be an inferior being. As an example, a colonel holds an inferior position to a general, but is not an inferior being. To most people's way of thinking, an ant, however, is an inferior being to a human.

Co-equal and Co-eternal do describe Christ who was with God in the beginning and who was God. I agree with the rest of that about being subordinate yet equal.

The third member of the Godhead is the Holy Ghost. Unlike the Father and the Son, the Holy Ghost is a person of spirit only. It is by virtue of this quality that He is able to both fill the universe and dwell in our hearts. It is through the Holy Ghost that God communicates to mankind. We come to understand spiritual truths through the witnessing of the Holy Ghost, who communicates with us on a spiritual plane. It is through Him that we come to know the Father and the Son.

That's fairly close to what I believe. Dang, we need to do SHORTER posts!!! May I say, I do respect and admire Mormons and their zeal for spreading their message and their purity of life. There are just some subtle differences in their teachings that don't sit quite right with me and it is from these teachings about God that the whole polygamy idea came as people were anxious to start their spirit children for their new planet and all. (I know it is not practiced or taught by the official church although it is still by many fundamentalist off-shoots, but how much of that is because of persecution and U.S. law as opposed to doctrine?). This is a total twist to what the Bible teaches that we will live here with God forever worshiping, loving, serving and having fellowship with him. Well, I don't want to argue or attack Mormonism, but I felt I should dignify your replies with a reply and try to explain where I am coming from a little, anyway. All my respect and love to you.

 

[Katzpur]

Javajo, I can't believe how exhausted I am from the holiday. I know it's supposed to be peaceful and all, but I'm just wasted. I don't even think I could even respond coherently to your last two posts, both of which were well thought-out and respectful, particularly since I've never been able to master the art of brevity. I honestly don't have a problem with the fact that some of our teachings "don't sit quite right" with you. I'm totally fine with differences of opinion, as long as people remain civil, as you always do. Maybe in a few days, I'll feel up to responding to your last two posts, as well as to the one a number of pages back (comparing "Mormonism" to "Christianity"). I've got to admit, that one didn't strike me as typical of what I've come to expect from you. Anyway, that's for the in-depth responses. I admire and respect you, and appreciate the fact that we are generally able to have mature discussions and learn from one another.

 

[javajo]

Javajo, I can't believe how exhausted I am from the holiday. I know it's supposed to be peaceful and all, but I'm just wasted. I don't even think I could even respond coherently to your last two posts, both of which were well thought-out and respectful, particularly since I've never been able to master the art of brevity. I honestly don't have a problem with the fact that some of our teachings "don't sit quite right" with you. I'm totally fine with differences of opinion, as long as people remain civil, as you always do. Maybe in a few days, I'll feel up to responding to your last two posts, as well as to the one a number of pages back (comparing "Mormonism" to "Christianity"). I've got to admit, that one didn't strike me as typical of what I've come to expect from you. Anyway, that's for the in-depth responses. I admire and respect you, and appreciate the fact that we are generally able to have mature discussions and learn from one another.

Hi! It can be exhausting to be sure! I hope you get some time to rest and enjoy some peace. Sorry about the post from CARM, I like to just type my own response, but it seemed to point out some of the actual differences so a foundation for discussion could hopefully be laid. It did take awhile to get all that from the chart to bullet points anyway. Still, no excuse. I did not mean it in a hostile way and I have great respect for you and your beliefs as always. It can be difficult discussing our differences without seeming to attack one another's beliefs and I hope I never offend you with my ignorance or with my standing for what I believe is truth whenever we may have conflicting but very close views. Ok, cu next time!

 

[Oak of Justice]

I do not accept the belief of a so called trinity but I believe that to have faith in Jesus is to do the works He did and obey His command. He sent His followers into the world as he was sent with the same mission and words. Example;

Thus says the Lord of hosts; Render true judgment, and show kindness and compassion toward each other.

They shall be my people, and I will be their God, with faithfulness and justice.
These then are the things you should do: Speak the truth to one another; judge justly and let there be honesty and peace in your home town.

I will strengthen the house of Judah, the house of Joseph I will save; I will bring them back, because I have mercy on them, they shall be as though I had never cast them off, for I am the Lord, their God, and I will hear them.
I will strengthen them in the Lord, and they shall walk in his name, says the Lord

They shall call upon my name, and I will hear them. I will say, "They are my people," and they shall say, "The Lord is my God."

Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city.
Then the Lord shall go forth and fight against those nations, fighting as on a day of battle.

On that day there shall no longer be cold or frost.
There shall be one continuous day, known to the Lord, not day and night, for in the evening time there shall be light.
On that day, living waters shall flow from Jerusalem, half to the eastern sea, and half to the western sea, and it shall be so in summer and in winter.
The Lord shall become king over the whole earth; on that day the Lord shall be the only one, and his name the only one.

I am the good shepherd, I know my sheep and my sheep know me,
just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; To these sheep I will give my life.

My sheep hear my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish. No one can take them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can take them out of the Lord's hand. The Lord and I are one.
If I do not perform my Father's works, do not believe me;
but if I perform them, even if you do not believe me, put faith in the works, so that you may realize that the Lord is in me and I am in the Lord.
I am the resurrection and the life; anyone who believes in me, even though he died, he will come to life, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

Ah, the Trinity doctrine is one of my favorite. I believe in the Trinity and I think it is undeniable. John 1:1 is clearly a Trinity proof verse. John 20:28 is also a Trinity proof verse, along with Zechariah 12:10. These are just three scriptures of the many Trinity proof verses that the bible has to offer.

 

[Katzpur]

Ah, the Trinity doctrine is one of my favorite. I believe in the Trinity and I think it is undeniable. John 1:1 is clearly a Trinity proof verse. John 20:28 is also a Trinity proof verse, along with Zechariah 12:10. These are just three scriptures of the many Trinity proof verses that the bible has to offer.

Let's look at these three passages.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

How could "the Word" be with God if He was the same person? Does being with someone require that there be two distinct individuals?

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

I would agree that Jesus was Thomas' Lord and God. On the other hand, in John 20:17, Jesus says to Mary, when she sees Him shortly after His resurrection: "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." Evidently Jesus Christ had a God of His own. Otherwise, He'd have had to have been His own God. Again, He would not have referred to His Father as His God if the two were not distinct from one another.

Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Uh... You're going to have to explain this one. If this is supposed to be proof of the Trinity, it's a pretty darned vague proof.

 

[Oak of Justice]

When Jesus was praying to the father He said His followers who accepted His words and went into the world as he did would be One as He is One with the Father. But you do not accept His command so He has blinded you to the truth.There are going to be a lot more who are One, the son of man will make sure of it.

JN) I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be One, as we are One, I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as One, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me.

The Lord says this;

Seek the Lord so you will live.

All those who do right shall rise to live.

I'm going to make right a measuring line and justice a level.

I will strengthen and purify the lips of the people so they will all call upon the name of the Lord , to serve Him with one accord.

Anyone who drinks the water I give him will never become thirsty, the water I give him will be like a fountain inside him rising up to provide eternal life.

 

[Katzpur]

When Jesus was praying to the father He said His followers who accepted His words and went into the world as he did would be One as He is One with the Father. But you do not accept His command so He has blinded you to the truth.There are going to be a lot more who are One, the son of man will make sure of it.

JN) I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be One, as we are One, I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as One, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me.

So Jesus was asking His Father that His followers someday be absorbed into the Trinity?

 

[Oak of Justice]

[/B]So Jesus was asking His Father that His followers someday be absorbed into the Trinity?

No,His followers are One once they do what he commanded. Those who do the will of the Father as Jesus did. They are true disciples who keep His words and continue in His teaching with the same words and mission. This is how the son of man will rise from the dead. Remember; The son of man will come at a time you least expect.

Come to me, all you who labor and are burdened, and I will give you peace.
Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am meek and humble of heart; and you will find peace for yourselves.
For my yoke is righteous, and my burden is light.

Scripture has it; Let your heart hold fast to my words, keep my commands so you will live."

"You've been told what is good and what the Lord requires of you, only to do what is right, love goodness and walk humbly with the Lord your God".

"The Lord guides the humble to justice and He teaches the meek His way".

When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will realize that I AM, and that I do nothing on my own, I only say what the Lord has taught me.
For the one who sent me is with me. He has not deserted me, because I always do what pleases him.


I am the resurrection and the life; anyone who believes in me, even though he died, he will come to life, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die.

Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will preserve it with eternal life.

Whoever serves me must follow me, where I am, there will my servant be. The Lord will honor whoever serves me. I am the light of the world. No one who follows me will ever walk in darkness, cause he will possess the light of life. Whoever walks in the dark does not know where he is going.
Once you have the light, keep faith in the light, and you will become a child of light.

Whoever believes in me believes not only in me but also in the one who sent me, and whoever sees me sees the one who sent me.
I came into the world as light, so that everyone who believes in me might not remain in darkness.
And if anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not condemn him, for I did not come to condemn the world but to save it.
Whoever rejects me and does not accept my words he already has his judge, namely, the word that I have spoken that’s what will condemn him on the last day, because I did not speak on my own, but the Lord who sent me commanded me what to say and speak.
And since I know that his commandment means eternal life what I say is spoken just as He instructed me."

 

[Katzpur]

No,His followers are One once they do what he commanded.

I agree. But "one" in what way? Wasn't He saying that He wanted them (His followers) to be "one" in the same way in which He and His Father are "one"? If that's the case, then He wouldn't be asking that they all become part of "one" substance, but that they be "one" in will and purpose.

 

[Oak of Justice]

I agree. But "one" in what way? Wasn't He saying that He wanted them (His followers) to be "one" in the same way in which He and His Father are "one"? If that's the case, then He wouldn't be asking that they all become part of "one" substance, but that they be "one" in will and purpose.

Yes.One, just as He and the Father are One, because of the glory He gave to His followers, the same glory that was given to Him so that they would be made perfect as One.

"You must be made perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect".

 

[Katzpur]

Yes.One, just as He and the Father are One, because of the glory He gave to His followers, the same glory that was given to Him so that they would be made perfect as One.

"You must be made perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect".

Okay, I'm confused. How does this support the belief in the Trinity?

 

[Oak of Justice]

Okay, I'm confused. How does this support the belief in the Trinity?

It doesn't support it. It disproves it.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

Let's look at these three passages.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

How could "the Word" be with God if He was the same person? Does being with someone require that there be two distinct individuals?

Dang Katz, you sound just like the Jehovah's Witnesses whom I discuss doctrine issues with every now and again. The Trinity Doctrine does NOT state that the Word and the Father are the same person. What the doctrine does state is that all three all distinct persons that share the same title as "God", meaning all three are divine, and rightfully so. Jesus is the "Word" that is refered to in this scripture. Do you wanna know how we can tell that Jesus is the Word?? Look at verse 14 in that same chapter, where it states "the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us." So you can rightfully replace the name "Jesus" with the "Word" in the first verse. :yes:

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.


I would agree that Jesus was Thomas' Lord and God. On the other hand, in John 20:17, Jesus says to Mary, when she sees Him shortly after His resurrection: "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." Evidently Jesus Christ had a God of His own. Otherwise, He'd have had to have been His own God. Again, He would not have referred to His Father as His God if the two were not distinct from one another.

Lets go to Heb 1:8, which states "8 But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom."

Now according to your logic, the Father couldnt be God, because he is clearly calling the Son "God" in this context. Jesus and the Father are both God. Now yes, Jesus may have had to lower his position, as Phil 2:5-9 indicates, but he is still God. In fact, the very Hebrews scripture that I just gave you, a few verses up, God has the angels worship the Son. Worship should be only rendered to God, as Jesus told Satan in Matt 4:10. Anything else is blasphamy. Not only this scripture, but there are many scriptures in the NT where Jesus is worshipped Matt 14:33 is one of the many. So Jesus is called God by the Father himself, and he is worshipped as only a God would be worshipped. Pretty clear to me. :yes:

Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Uh... You're going to have to explain this one. If this is supposed to be proof of the Trinity, it's a pretty darned vague proof.

Sure. This scripture is a prophecy concerning the death of Jesus. John 19:34, it states "Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water." So Jesus was pierced with the spear of a Roman soldier. In the Zechariah scripture, God is obviously speaking in the context, and he states "They shall look upon me whom they have pierced." He said they shall look upon ME. If the "me" is God, and Jesus was pierced, then quite logically Jesus is God. And this makes perfect sense, Jesus is prophecizing on what will soon happen to himself. Yes sirrr :yes:

 

[Katzpur]

It doesn't support it. It disproves it.

Oh! Okay! That's what I thought. I misunderstood what you were saying. So I guess we agree after all.