Christians who deny Christ's divinity/Trinity

[Reverend Rick]

Would it be that tragic if God and Jesus where seperate OR the same?

I mean this as far as salvation is concerned. If the trinity is correct, would Jesus be so petty that we prayed to the wrong aspect of God?

I don't see Jesus saying, " You should have prayed to me,(Son) instead of praying to me, (Father)".

The truth as I see it, this is unclear. We should not be surprised about this, Daniel did not understand all his dreams and visions and they happened to him directly.

Reading and studying texts that are in different languages where the content was handed down for generations, and we hang on every word trying to get to the bottom of this is a challenge to say the least.

I guess my point is, does it really matter all that much either way?

I cannot see some of us going to heaven or not over this issue, can you?

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

Would it be that tragic if God and Jesus where seperate OR the same?

I mean this as far as salvation is concerned. If the trinity is correct, would Jesus be so petty that we prayed to the wrong aspect of God?

I don't see Jesus saying, " You should have prayed to me,(Son) instead of praying to me, (Father)".

The truth as I see it, this is unclear. We should not be surprised about this, Daniel did not understand all his dreams and visions and they happened to him directly.

Reading and studying texts that are in different languages where the content was handed down for generations, and we hang on every word trying to get to the bottom of this is a challenge to say the least.

I guess my point is, does it really matter all that much either way?

I cannot see some of us going to heaven or not over this issue, can you?

No it doesn't matter from a "salvation" standpoint. But it does matter from a "teaching the right doctrine" standpoint. Worship can rightfully be rendered to both the Father and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Pegg]

No it doesn't matter from a "salvation" standpoint. But it does matter from a "teaching the right doctrine" standpoint. Worship can rightfully be rendered to both the Father and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

but only one grants salvation...and that is Jehovah

Isaiah 43:11 I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.”

and for that reason, even Jesus said that it is God the Father who reveals the truth to individuals....
John 6:44 No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him
John 6:65 So he went on to say: “This is why I have said to YOU, No one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father

People can pray to Jesus all they like... but if they dont know the Father, then they will not even get close to knowing Jesus because the Father will not draw them to his son if they are not drawn to him first.

Sadly, the trinity teaches people that Jesus is the Father .... so they cannot distinguish the difference between the Father and the Son.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

but only one grants salvation...and that is Jehovah

Isaiah 43:11 I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.”

and for that reason, even Jesus said that it is God the Father who reveals the truth to individuals....
John 6:44 No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him
John 6:65 So he went on to say: “This is why I have said to YOU, No one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father

People can pray to Jesus all they like... but if they dont know the Father, then they will not even get close to knowing Jesus because the Father will not draw them to his son if they are not drawn to him first.

Sadly, the trinity teaches people that Jesus is the Father .... so they cannot distinguish the difference between the Father and the Son.

Dont just respond to what I said above, respond to the other stuff I said. I mentioned at least three Trinity proof scriptures, so respond to those.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

I'm sure you came to believe in this through the many passages quoting Jesus exalting mankind.

I believe in the trinity.

Christ made it very clear I would enter in the "Son" part of it's divinity

We are all God the Son, comunicating with God through our Holy Spirit.

That's why that is the gravest of all sins, to deny the Holy Spirit. Because the holy spirit means our ability to conect with all that is sacred, which includes love, compassion, peace, faith in human virte, etc.

 

[9Westy9]

I'm sure you came to believe in this through the many passages quoting Jesus exalting mankind.

Galatians 3:26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus,

1 John 3:2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

John 1:12 NIV - Yet to all who did receive him, to - Bible Gateway

 

[Katzpur]

I don't know how I missed this post!

Dang Katz, you sound just like the Jehovah's Witnesses whom I discuss doctrine issues with every now and again. The Trinity Doctrine does NOT state that the Word and the Father are the same person. What the doctrine does state is that all three all distinct persons that share the same title as "God", meaning all three are divine, and rightfully so.

I totally agree (with what I just changed to purple font). As a matter of fact, I have described their relationship in almost exactly the same way in other posts.

Jesus is the "Word" that is refered to in this scripture. Do you wanna know how we can tell that Jesus is the Word?? Look at verse 14 in that same chapter, where it states "the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us." So you can rightfully replace the name "Jesus" with the "Word" in the first verse. :yes:

I agree again. Completely.

Lets go to Heb 1:8, which states "8 But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom."

Now according to your logic, the Father couldnt be God, because he is clearly calling the Son "God" in this context. Jesus and the Father are both God. Now yes, Jesus may have had to lower his position, as Phil 2:5-9 indicates, but he is still God.

This is a scripture I've used to support my own position. I agree that both the Father and the Son are "God," precisely because I, too, believe that all three are distinct persons that share the same title as "God", meaning all three are divine." Somehow, I'm thinking that you must have misunderstood me in the post you responded to.

So Jesus is called God by the Father himself, and he is worshipped as only a God would be worshipped. Pretty clear to me. :yes:

Pretty clear to me, too, actually.

Sure. This scripture is a prophecy concerning the death of Jesus. John 19:34, it states "Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water." So Jesus was pierced with the spear of a Roman soldier. In the Zechariah scripture, God is obviously speaking in the context, and he states "They shall look upon me whom they have pierced." He said they shall look upon ME. If the "me" is God, and Jesus was pierced, then quite logically Jesus is God. And this makes perfect sense, Jesus is prophecizing on what will soon happen to himself. Yes sirrr :yes:

Well, aside from the "sirrr" part (as I'm definitely not a guy ), I agree with everything you've said here. As a matter of fact, I have no real disagreement with you at all aside from the fact that I use the word "Godhead" instead of "Trinity." In all honesty, this is the very first time I've ever heard a trinitarian explain the relationship between the Father and the Son like you just have. This sentence says it all:

What the doctrine does state is that all three are distinct persons that share the same title as "God", meaning all three are divine, and rightfully so.

 

[Me Myself]

I'm sure you came to believe in this through the many passages quoting Jesus exalting mankind.

I have said may times the passage and you´ve read it many times at least by talking to me.

Jesus explicitely says that he is God because the jewish scriptures say "you are gods" to humans.

About all of us being Christ, have you ever had a flu and being taken care of?

 

[Me Myself]

Would it be that tragic if God and Jesus where seperate OR the same?

I mean this as far as salvation is concerned. If the trinity is correct, would Jesus be so petty that we prayed to the wrong aspect of God?

I don't see Jesus saying, " You should have prayed to me,(Son) instead of praying to me, (Father)".

Actually : http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...r/119446-where-did-jesus-asked-worshpped.html

Not one single passage when he asks to be worshipped.

Furthermore, when he taught us how to pray he says "FATHER who are in heaven..." no mention of himself in the prayer he taught us.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Galatians 3:26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus,

1 John 3:2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

John 1:12 NIV - Yet to all who did receive him, to - Bible Gateway

Luke 18: 24And Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God! 25“For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 26They who heard it said, “Then who can be saved?” 27But He said, “The things that are impossible with people are possible with God.”

Luke 17: 7“Which of you, having a slave plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, ‘Come immediately and sit down to eat’? 8“But will he not say to him, ‘Prepare something for me to eat, and properly clothe yourself and serve me while I eat and drink; and afterward you may eat and drink’? 9“He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were commanded, does he? 10“So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.’”

Proverbs 16:9 "In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps."

Proverbs 19:21 "Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails."

Isaiah 29: 16You turn things around!
Shall the potter be considered as equal with the clay,
That what is made would say to its maker, “He did not make me”;
Or what is formed say to him who formed it, “He has no understanding”?

Job 38 1 Then the LORD spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:

2 “Who is this that obscures my plans
with words without knowledge?
3 Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels[a] shouted for joy?
8 “Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,
9 when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,
10 when I fixed limits for it
and set its doors and bars in place,
11 when I said, ‘This far you may come and no farther;
here is where your proud waves halt’? 12 “Have you ever given orders to the morning,
or shown the dawn its place,
13 that it might take the earth by the edges
and shake the wicked out of it?
14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
its features stand out like those of a garment.
15 The wicked are denied their light,
and their upraised arm is broken.


Case closed

 

[-Peacemaker-]

I have said may times the passage and you´ve read it many times at least by talking to me.

Jesus explicitely says that he is God because the jewish scriptures say "you are gods" to humans.

About all of us being Christ, have you ever had a flu and being taken care of?

Deuteronomy 4:28 "There you will worship man-made gods of wood and stone, which cannot see or hear or eat or smell."

2 Kings 19:18 "They have thrown their gods into the fire and destroyed them, for they were not gods but only wood and stone, fashioned by men's hands."

2 Corinthians 4:4 "The god of this age (the Devil) has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God"

Exodus 20:3 “You shall have no other gods before me"

Exodus 18:11 "Now I know that the LORD is greater than all other gods, for he did this to those who had treated Israel arrogantly.”

1 Chronicles 16: 26 "For all the gods of the nations are idols,
but the LORD made the heavens. "


Psalm 82: 5 “The ‘gods’ know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”;
you are all sons of the Most High.’
7 But you will die like mere mortals;
you will fall like every other ruler.”

Generally speaking in the Bible, when the word "god" with a lower case "g" is used, it's refering to an idol which is a FALSE god. That is including the verse you mention in the Hebrew scriptures which you totally took out of context. In fact I can't think of one instance in which it's used to refer to one that is worthy of worship

 

[obi one]

I have enjoyed reading the threads here, and would like to pose a question I have run into lately.

What are peoples thoughts here on professed Christians who do not believe in the divinity of Jesus or the literal trinity? Are they still to be considered Christians? I have read of some early Christian sects that did not believe in the trinity or Christs divinity. And I have met Christians today who do the same. They say they simply follow Christs teachings and worship God. Is this possible, why or why not?

The trinity dogma was first institutionalized by the Nicene Council, which was convened by Constantine, the king of Rome. Anyone objecting to this dogma instituted by this new Roman Catholic Church received harsh treatment. Later on, people would loose their lives if they disagreed with the dogmas of the church.

As Yeshua stated, anyone doing the will of God is his brother and sister. For only in the sense that the Spirit of God dwells in these children, and they do his will, can one call them gods.

Many believe that you have to believe in the Roman Catholic creeds to be called Christian. The mother church is the Catholic church, and they can do what they want. But with respect to the Law and the prophets, and the testimony of Yeshua, it is all nonsense, and in the tradition of men, and are in keeping with the mystery religion of Babylon, and the Mythric church of Constantine.

 

[Me Myself]

Deuteronomy 4:28 "There you will worship man-made gods of wood and stone, which cannot see or hear or eat or smell."

2 Kings 19:18 "They have thrown their gods into the fire and destroyed them, for they were not gods but only wood and stone, fashioned by men's hands."

2 Corinthians 4:4 "The god of this age (the Devil) has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God"

Exodus 20:3 “You shall have no other gods before me"

Exodus 18:11 "Now I know that the LORD is greater than all other gods, for he did this to those who had treated Israel arrogantly.”

1 Chronicles 16: 26 "For all the gods of the nations are idols,
but the LORD made the heavens. "


Psalm 82: 5 “The ‘gods’ know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”;
you are all sons of the Most High.’
7 But you will die like mere mortals;
you will fall like every other ruler.”

Generally speaking in the Bible, when the word "god" with a lower case "g" is used, it's refering to an idol which is a FALSE god. That is including the verse you mention in the Hebrew scriptures which you totally took out of context. In fact I can't think of one instance in which it's used to refer to one that is worthy of worship

First reflect on what you said in the bolded part. If you still haven´t noticed it yet by yourself open the spoiler.

Spoiler: answer

There is no capitals in those original languages

Now, about taking out of context, I am talking about JESUS justification of why he is God when people were talking to him ABOUT THAT SUBJECT.

If you want to pretend that he didn´t say that we are gods (which is the same as "Gods" because he was talking when he spoke, not writting) then you may, but it is the only place in all the bible where he says he is God.

The only other places is when he says the he is "one" with God, but if that is the same as being God, then when he says he *is* the sick people and the hungry people, etc then all of them are also God.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

From a Christian POV, the Devil is the type of Christian that that denies the divinity of Jesus.

 

[Me Myself]

From a Christian POV, the Devil is the type of Christian that that denies the divinity of Jesus.

And the same who denies mine and yours.

 

[miss interpret]

I have enjoyed reading the threads here, and would like to pose a question I have run into lately.

What are peoples thoughts here on professed Christians who do not believe in the divinity of Jesus or the literal trinity? Are they still to be considered Christians? I have read of some early Christian sects that did not believe in the trinity or Christs divinity. And I have met Christians today who do the same. They say they simply follow Christs teachings and worship God. Is this possible, why or why not?

Hi personally I would say if they do not accept Jesus as God or the trinity they are not Christians at all.The two main sects I know who do this are the the church of jeus christ and the latter day saints and the jehovas witnesses.

 

[9Westy9]

From a Christian POV, the Devil is the type of Christian that that denies the divinity of Jesus.

I thought he has the guy who did Yahweh's dirty work for him (see Job)

 

[SaintAugustine]

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,...
Mathew 28:19..debates range from 50's to 80's AD.

"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with all of you."[2 Cor. 13:14]..around summer of 55 AD

development of the Trinity starts with the Canon on Scripture, the usuage by the early church fathers, and then the early church.

Church father Ignatius ..." whatsoever ye do, may prosper both in the flesh and spirit; in faith and love; in the Son, and in the Father, and in the Spirit;,."
Epistle to the Magnesians 13:1,2...written circa 107 AD.

Tertullian..coins phrase "Trinity", 2nd Century.

While everyone points to the Council of Nicea of 325 AD, the Trinity issue was brought up and clarified further in the Council of Constantinople in 381.

 

[abc123kid]

Yes, we are Christians. I don't believe the trinitarian doctrine. I believe in Christ's divinity. God dwells in him and God dwells in us.

Two questions here: 1st are you saying that we are divine because God is dwelling in us. 2nd Jesus is God which makes Him divine. The exact representation of God the Father.

 

[sojourner]

The trinity dogma was first institutionalized by the Nicene Council, which was convened by Constantine, the king of Rome. Anyone objecting to this dogma instituted by this new Roman Catholic Church received harsh treatment. Later on, people would loose their lives if they disagreed with the dogmas of the church.

As Yeshua stated, anyone doing the will of God is his brother and sister. For only in the sense that the Spirit of God dwells in these children, and they do his will, can one call them gods.

Many believe that you have to believe in the Roman Catholic creeds to be called Christian. The mother church is the Catholic church, and they can do what they want. But with respect to the Law and the prophets, and the testimony of Yeshua, it is all nonsense, and in the tradition of men, and are in keeping with the mystery religion of Babylon, and the Mythric church of Constantine.

Yes, but the idea that Jesus was Divine is very, very early -- before the gospels were written down, probably.