Christians: Why aren't you Muslim?

[Bismillah]

you realise im talking about 'unrepentant' wrongdoers, dont you?

Yes I understand, of course shunning someone from the house of God and excluding them from the religious community will always exacerbate the problem. As I said "if a man is abandoned in the time of his spiritual need then religion is profoundly useless."

 

[Bismillah]

The act of God becoming incarnate does not "separate" God from anything.

Really? If Jesus was at point A then he logically cannot be at point B. Confining Allah within the confines of the human realm is to limit his transcendence and thus an insult to his tawhid that leads into shirk.

So?

Allah need not be confined into human form, he already exists and manifests his presence on every scope humanity can comprehend and far beyond that. He is already, as you said, immanent.

The Trinity doesn't divide God.

No, it does. Dividing God into himself and "his son and the holy spirit" is quite apparent demarcation of Allah's unity.

It unifies God and reconciles humanity to God.

As I said there is no reason to as his presence is already within the most intimate confines of humanity. It reconciles humanity in that it attempts to place Allah upon mortal realms and seeks to explain that which cannot be explained.

God is perfectly subjective within each individual, yet perfectly transcendent above all. I can't help it if you can't "get it."

That is completely wrong, for Allah to be subjective requires, at base minimum, the ability to comprehend him. That you attempt to place yourself upon that pedestal speaks volumes about what happens once Allah is attempted to be confined within the worldly realm for reflection. I am sorry if you cannot express yourself clearly enough for me to "get it" but you have not done anything to clarify my apparently wrong views.

No, we don't. God becomes fully human of God's volition.

Confining Allah into human form places limitations upon him, the moment God "becomes human" he cannot be considered God.

I am not "banging my head" rather you are unable to explain clearly why you, time and time again, limit the omnipotence of Allah. His presence permeates all, to think that he needs to condense himself and confine himself in the form of a mortal is ridiculous.

The fact is humanity doesn't need to be "reconciled", as it can never approach a plane coming close to that of divine omnipotence. It can reform itself instead and that has already been proven through the means of a Prophet with the vehicle of divine scripture.

I understand it is frustrating, the trinity makes no sense at all if one seeks to reconcile the limitations placed upon him when considering the totality of the creator.

 

[Pegg]

Yes I understand, of course shunning someone from the house of God and excluding them from the religious community will always exacerbate the problem. As I said "if a man is abandoned in the time of his spiritual need then religion is profoundly useless."

i hate to be the one to say this, but religion's role is not to enforce change...its to be a light for those who WANT change. Religion should 'show' people the way, not force people to live in the way.

Do you really think that, if God wanted his laws enforced on people, he could not simply control people himself? Of course he could. He could reprogram us the way the animals are programmed to behave.

He obviously doesnt want to program us in the same way. He wants us to make a choice and religions role is certainly not to take away that choice.

 

[Bismillah]

You're not "showing people the way" if you cut them off from the religion and community.

 

[ninerbuff]

If you look at the topic title, the question is aimed at Christians. Thus, your opinion was not needed here. The question wants to see why people would choose Christianity over Islam; not if people found either of them credible.

Please, it's an open forum. Don't like the opinion, ignore it.

 

[ninerbuff]

i hate to be the one to say this, but religion's role is not to enforce change...its to be a light for those who WANT change. Religion should 'show' people the way, not force people to live in the way.

Do you really think that, if God wanted his laws enforced on people, he could not simply control people himself? Of course he could. He could reprogram us the way the animals are programmed to behave.

He obviously doesnt want to program us in the same way. He wants us to make a choice.

No he wants you to make him the choice. That's why it's black and white. Live eternally or burn eternally. I don't understand why christians say this is a "choice". It's an ultimatum. You don't do it his way you're ******. Plain and simple.

 

[Pegg]

You're not "showing people the way" if you cut them off from the religion and community.

the only people who can be disfellowshipped are those who have learnt Gods ways, submitted their life to God and shown their dedication to him through baptism. Its when those people go back to willfully practicing sin that they are disfellowshipped, and that only occurs if they refuse the help & counsel they are offered to come back to God.

Unbaptized people are given all the help they need to turn their lives around and become servants of God. That is religions role...to show people the way and maintain a place of worship where Gods laws are being upheld by people who want to uphold them.

 

[Pegg]

No he wants you to make him the choice. That's why it's black and white. Live eternally or burn eternally. I don't understand why christians say this is a "choice". It's an ultimatum. You don't do it his way you're ******. Plain and simple.

we didnt exist before we lived, nor will we exist after we die

God has no reason to burn people eternally...the punishment for refusing to choose God is non existence which is all we deserve because its all we had before God used his own power to give us life.

 

[Bismillah]

the only people who can be disfellowshipped are those who have learnt Gods ways

Source?

submitted their life to God and shown their dedication to him through baptism.

Baptism isn't showing "dedication" towards God as many children are baptized and have yet to show their dedication.

Its when those people go back to willfully practicing sin that they are disfellowshipped

Yes people relapse into sin, that is the human condition. It is the condition of divine religion to be the light that pulls them from that abject darkness.

and that only occurs if they refuse the help & counsel

Source?

 

[Pegg]

Source?

Jesus counsel on how to treat a willful wrongdoers:
Matthew 18:15 “Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go lay bare his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, in order that at the mouth of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. 17 If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector.

1Cor 5:11 But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves.


How a person was treated under the mosaic law:
Deuteronomy 17:2 “In case there should be found in your midst in one of your cities that Jehovah your God is giving you a man or a woman who should practice what is bad in the eyes of Jehovah your God so as to overstep his covenant,... 5 you must also bring that man or that woman who has done this bad thing out to your gates, yes, the man or the woman, and you must stone such one with stones, and such one must die. ... and you must clear out what is bad from your midst


You may notice a vast difference here. Under the mosiac laws, certain acts were dealt with by death. But under christ, all unrepentant wrongdoers are dealt with by removing them from the congregation. They are sent out in order to keep the congregation clean.

Baptism isn't showing "dedication" towards God as many children are baptized and have yet to show their dedication.

thats true, however, what the church's do today is not the biblical example of what baptism was about.

People came to be baptized due to their faith in Christ and once they were baptized, they were to be preachers of the good news. I dont know too many babies who can do that. Not all christian churchs baptize children for that very reason.

Yes people relapse into sin, that is the human condition. It is the condition of divine religion to be the light that pulls them from that abject darkness.

they relapse and realise their mistake and confess their sins to God and ask for forgiveness...that is not the sort of person who would be disfellowshiped from a congregation.

the ones who have turned away from God and do not wish to obey his laws anymore...these are the ones who are disfellowshiped in christianity. There are some examples in the scriptures of such ones. Paul speaks of two:
1 Timothy 1:18This mandate I commit to you, child, Timothy, in accord with the predictions that led directly on to you, that by these you may go on waging the fine warfare; 19 holding faith and a good conscience, which some have thrust aside and have experienced shipwreck concerning [their] faith. 20 Hy‧me‧nae′us and Alexander belong to these, and I have handed them over to Satan that they may be taught by discipline not to blaspheme.

 

[search the scriptures]

"No he wants you to make him the choice. That's why it's black and white. Live eternally or burn eternally. I don't understand why christians say this is a "choice". It's an ultimatum. You don't do it his way you're ******. Plain and simple."

yes, but you choose.

you may not like the judge, Law or the punishment but you don't have a say.

why not trust Jesus? for free you will be forgiven. that is mercy.

choice: trust in jesus - or- be judged by the law.

choice: grace/mercy - or- damnation

if im wrong o well
if your wrong o hell

 

[sojourner]

Really? If Jesus was at point A then he logically cannot be at point B. Confining Allah within the confines of the human realm is to limit his transcendence and thus an insult to his tawhid that leads into shirk.

You're confusing the particularity of place with distinct separateness. if you understood Christian theology, you wouldn't make such statements. It is complete transcendence that creates a distinct separation from humanity. In what way was God "confined to the human realm?" Just because God was found in human form doesn't mean that God isn't also transcendent.

Allah need not be confined into human form, he already exists and manifests his presence on every scope humanity can comprehend and far beyond that. He is already, as you said, immanent.

God is not "confined" to human form, though. Your argument here is completely pointless.

No, it does. Dividing God into himself and "his son and the holy spirit" is quite apparent demarcation of Allah's unity.

God isn't divided into God's Self. Once again, your argument is pointless. It's the very fact that God abides in three Persons that God can be said to abide in community. Community contains the words "com" (with) and "unity" (self-explanitory). There is no "demarcation" in true community. There is only community. When Muslims are "in community" there is only the community of Muslims -- not a simple conglomeration of individuals. A community is an organic whole, just as God-in-community is an organic whole.

As I said there is no reason to as his presence is already within the most intimate confines of humanity.

Now you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. To confine God in humanity is bad. Yet you say here that God is already "within the most intimate confines of humanity."

BTW: In what way is Allah "within the most intimate confines of humanity" if God is fully transcendent???

It reconciles humanity in that it attempts to place Allah upon mortal realms and seeks to explain that which cannot be explained.

It doesn't attempt to place God anywhere. God is fully within humanity, and fully transcendent. God is Who God is.

That is completely wrong, for Allah to be subjective requires, at base minimum, the ability to comprehend him.

Most (if not all) human beings cannot fully comprehend themselves, yet human understanding is said to be "subjective." How is God revealed in the world without human agency? Animals do not apprehend God. Neither to plants or rocks or oceans. But humans do. The Trinity shows how God abides in perfect community with humanity, over whom God also has dominion. Again: I can't help it if you can't get it. And that's really not my problem. God is Who God is. God's very Name says as much...

That you attempt to place yourself upon that pedestal speaks volumes about what happens once Allah is attempted to be confined within the worldly realm for reflection.

I don't see that I've placed myself on any pedestal. Nor should you attempt to place me there.
As to your second phrase, apparently I'm not the only one who "attempts to place God 'within the most intimate confines of humanity,'" as you, yourself have said.

I am sorry if you cannot express yourself clearly enough for me to "get it" but you have not done anything to clarify my apparently wrong views.

I've done everything but hold your hand and connect all the little dots. There comes a point when the learner must take responsibility for the learning.

Confining Allah into human form places limitations upon him, the moment God "becomes human" he cannot be considered God.

I beg to differ. Christians have been considering Jesus "very God" for quite a while now. If God is omnipresent and omnipotent, then God is capable of being both particular and transcendent.

I am not "banging my head" rather you are unable to explain clearly why you, time and time again, limit the omnipotence of Allah.

But I'm not doing that. You say I'm doing that.

His presence permeates all, to think that he needs to condense himself and confine himself in the form of a mortal is ridiculous.

Apparently, you have "condensed" God into a gender here...
God has no need to condense God's Self in mortal form -- but we have need of that.
Millions of Christians disagree that it's ridiculous.

The fact is humanity doesn't need to be "reconciled"

The fact is that humanity doesn't need to be "reconciled" because humanity already has been reconciled when became Incarnate.

as it can never approach a plane coming close to that of divine omnipotence.

Jesus certainly did, because Jesus was fully human and is fully Divine. And we may become like him.

It can reform itself instead and that has already been proven through the means of a Prophet with the vehicle of divine scripture.

Riiiiight. Who were the first to draw blood on 9/11? Who were the first to kill diplomats when an idiot burned a Koran? Who were the first to threaten violence when someone printed "Muhammed" on a teddy bear? "Reform" has not been "proven," either through a "prophet" or "divine scripture."

I understand it is frustrating, the trinity makes no sense at all if one seeks to reconcile the limitations placed upon him when considering the totality of the creator.

I'm not in the least frustrated by it. I don't need to make complete sense of it.

 

[sojourner]

"No he wants you to make him the choice. That's why it's black and white. Live eternally or burn eternally. I don't understand why christians say this is a "choice". It's an ultimatum. You don't do it his way you're ******. Plain and simple."

yes, but you choose.

you may not like the judge, Law or the punishment but you don't have a say.

why not trust Jesus? for free you will be forgiven. that is mercy.

choice: trust in jesus - or- be judged by the law.

choice: grace/mercy - or- damnation

if im wrong o well
if your wrong o hell

A very, very small perspective.

 

[Bismillah]

Thanks for the sources Pegg.

 

[Bismillah]

You're confusing the particularity of place with distinct separateness. if you understood Christian theology, you wouldn't make such statements. It is complete transcendence that creates a distinct separation from humanity. In what way was God "confined to the human realm?" Just because God was found in human form doesn't mean that God isn't also transcendent.

You have yet to counter this logical claim "If Jesus was at Point A then he was not at Point B" There is thus no transcendence in the trinity.

God is not "confined" to human form, though. Your argument here is completely pointless.

Clearly Jesus was, you have yet to prove otherwise. Not only was he confined to human form, but he was apparently fallible enough to get nailed to a cross and die. What a God.

You also manage to ignore the fact that you stated that Allah cannot be completely transcendent if he is to be immanent, that is also false.

It's the very fact that God abides in three Persons that God can be said to abide in community. Community contains the words "com" (with) and "unity" (self-explanitory). There is no "demarcation" in true community. There is only community. When Muslims are "in community" there is only the community of Muslims -- not a simple conglomeration of individuals. A community is an organic whole, just as God-in-community is an organic whole.

You are kidding right? Deriving the latin prefexes and suffixes from English words and then applying them as reality is...

A community is, logically, a collection of individuals. We may be "united" in the most base of sense of shared belief or motive, but we are thoroughly independent beings.

The "community" that you are constructing is a weak facade to hide the fact that you have separated God into three parts.

Now you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. To confine God in humanity is bad. Yet you say here that God is already "within the most intimate confines of humanity."

No, not both sides of the mouth.

Allah is logically everywhere, he is infused within being on every level. Rather, confining God to human form only exposes you to this argument of confinement because you have dared to place divinity into something of a human form.

BTW: In what way is Allah "within the most intimate confines of humanity" if God is fully transcendent???

I have already quoted the verses for you, we are made from him, echo him, and he is closer to us than our jugular vein.

However, given his true divinity his intimacy with each of us need not cancel his transcendence but only add upon his omnipresence.

It doesn't attempt to place God anywhere. God is fully within humanity, and fully transcendent. God is Who God is.

You said earlier God isn't transcendent. Furthermore, God CANNOT be transcendent if he is confined to a human form, to a mortal life.

If he is in Nazareth he is not in Philadelphia.

Most (if not all) human beings cannot fully comprehend themselves, yet human understanding is said to be "subjective." How is God revealed in the world without human agency? The Trinity shows how God abides in perfect community with humanity, over whom God also has dominion.

No one can "understand" Allah, that is a given. Whatever ideas you may have are always incomplete and mundane on the most trivial of levels. Understanding Allah is not the ideal, becoming closer to him is.

I don't see that I've placed myself on any pedestal. Nor should you attempt to place me there.

Yet, you claim to subjectively understand God, that is a very bold thing to declare.

I've done everything but hold your hand and connect all the little dots. There comes a point when the learner must take responsibility for the learning.

What you have done is stumble and fall repeatedly without being able to explain just how a trinity does not limit Allah's divinity, now you are attempting to run away.

I beg to differ. Christians have been considering Jesus "very God" for quite a while now. If God is omnipresent and omnipotent, then God is capable of being both particular and transcendent.

Jesus clearly wasn't, as I said the moment you confine God to a mere mortal shell you have placed upon yourself a heavy burden.

Apparently, you have "condensed" God into a gender here...

Allah has no gender, he is not human nor can he take a shape or form that humanity may recognize, we can only recognize his portents and resolve ourselves in his presence.

Masculinity and femininity cannot be attributed to Allah, those are signs of fallibility.

In Arabic a word is masculine, as it stands, unless a character is added at the end of the letter the ta marbuda. Since the male version is independent it can be used to reference either a thing whose gender is unkown or unspecified.

This correlates with English usage as well

He - definition of He by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

2. Usage Problem Used to refer to a person whose gender is unspecified or unknown: "He who desires but acts not, breeds pestilence" (William Blake).

God has no need to condense God's Self in mortal form -- but we have need of that.

If we do then the entire vehicle of Prophets and Scripture is useless. All we require is the guidance of the best among us and their revelations entrusted to them.

Millions of Christians disagree that it's ridiculous.

It nonetheless is ridiculous.

The fact is that humanity doesn't need to be "reconciled" because humanity already has been reconciled when became Incarnate.

Except humanity is not reconciled. If God were to become "incarnate" then he would lose all the trappings of divinity.

Jesus certainly did, because Jesus was fully human and is fully Divine. And we may become like him.

Jesus didn't come close to divinity, as Ive already explained.

Who were the first to draw blood on 9/11? Who were the first to kill diplomats when an idiot burned a Koran? Who were the first to threaten violence when someone printed "Muhammed" on a teddy bear? "Reform" has not been "proven," either through a "prophet" or "divine scripture."

I understand that when discussing the inconsistencies within your spiritual beliefs you would like to shift to your flawed political views. I have no interest in discussing them here in this subsection.

Humanity has traditionally reformed itself with the presence of scripture. It has started with a pure orthodoxy and a period of theological expansion and understanding followed by a decay, similar to a life span.

That your flawed examples are counters to this idea is ludicrous, as the onus is on humanity to reform. The Qur'an provides the means and methods to live a better life and walk the straight path.

I'm not in the least frustrated by it. I don't need to make complete sense of it.

What a horrifying proclamation. You don't need to make sense of the essence premise of your religion?

 

[search the scriptures]

trinity

water:
Hydrogen, hydrogen, oxygen.

God:
father, the word, holy spirit.

man:
body, soul, spirit

time:
past, present, future

 

[sojourner]

You have yet to counter this logical claim "If Jesus was at Point A then he was not at Point B" There is thus no transcendence in the trinity.

So... now you want to reduce God to a problem of logic. And you accuse me of "confining" God...
God is Who God is.

Clearly Jesus was, you have yet to prove otherwise. Not only was he confined to human form, but he was apparently fallible enough to get nailed to a cross and die. What a God.

Jesus was fully human, and as such was confined to human form. But God is not confined to merely the Person of Jesus. God is also the Person of the Father. That flushes your argument down the crapper...

You are kidding right? Deriving the latin prefexes and suffixes from English words and then applying them as reality is...

Well... again, it is what it is. That's what community is, and that's what it means.

A community is, logically, a collection of individuals.

But theologically it is more than that -- it is an organic whole.

We may be "united" in the most base of sense of shared belief or motive, but we are thoroughly independent beings.

If you're in a real community, you are interdependent individuals...sort of like the Trinity.

The "community" that you are constructing is a weak facade to hide the fact that you have separated God into three parts.

God separated God's Self in three Persons...don't know that I'd call them "parts." And since they abide in unity, they are community, whether you think so or not.

Allah is logically everywhere, he is infused within being on every level. Rather, confining God to human form only exposes you to this argument of confinement because you have dared to place divinity into something of a human form.

Difference between the strong theology of Xy and the weaker theology of Islam is that Xy states that God is Being on all levels -- human and Divine; God is not "infused within being" on every level.

I have already quoted the verses for you, we are made from him, echo him, and he is closer to us than our jugular vein.

However, given his true divinity his intimacy with each of us need not cancel his transcendence but only add upon his omnipresence.

Hmmm... it's ok for Allah to be immanent and transcendent at the same time according to you, but it's not ok for God to be immanent and transcendent at the same time. That's quite a theological magic act you've got going there!

You said earlier God isn't transcendent.

I never said God isn't transcendent.

Furthermore, God CANNOT be transcendent if he is confined to a human form, to a mortal life.

God can be, if God is in three Persons, only one of which is confined to human form.
(BTW, I guess you're choosing not to address how you manage to confine God to a male identity...)

If he is in Nazareth he is not in Philadelphia.

God can be if God is the Father. Which God is. As well as the Son.

No one can "understand" Allah, that is a given. Whatever ideas you may have are always incomplete and mundane on the most trivial of levels. Understanding Allah is not the ideal, becoming closer to him is.

One can only get so close to a God who is transcendent...

Yet, you claim to subjectively understand God, that is a very bold thing to declare.

No, I don't.

What you have done is stumble and fall repeatedly without being able to explain just how a trinity does not limit Allah's divinity, now you are attempting to run away.

I'm not running away. I'm simply leaving you in the theological dust, as you stand there helplessly scratching your head because you can't understand that if God is omnipotent, then God has the power to be both immanently human and Divinely transcendent at the same time.

Jesus clearly wasn't, as I said the moment you confine God to a mere mortal shell you have placed upon yourself a heavy burden.

I never said Jesus was. I said God was. Jesus is one Person of God. But God also has Being in the Person of the Father. And the Spirit.

Allah has no gender, he is not human nor can he take a shape or form that humanity may recognize, we can only recognize his portents and resolve ourselves in his presence.

Masculinity and femininity cannot be attributed to Allah, those are signs of fallibility.

In Arabic a word is masculine, as it stands, unless a character is added at the end of the letter the ta marbuda. Since the male version is independent it can be used to reference either a thing whose gender is unkown or unspecified.

Well, how convenient. Allah has no gender...he. A limitation, I guess, of Arabic. Happily, you're not using Arabic here. You're using English. So you're not limited to the constraints of a gender-biased language.

If we do then the entire vehicle of Prophets and Scripture is useless.

I wouldn't say they're useless. But they're certainly inferior.

All we require is the guidance of the best among us and their revelations entrusted to them.

Guess that's why Jesus was the best among us, seeing as how he was fully Divine.

It nonetheless is ridiculous.

No more ridiculous than somebody riding off to heaven on a horse, since horses can't fly...

Except humanity is not reconciled.

Except that it is.

If God were to become "incarnate" then he would lose all the trappings of divinity.

Not sure I would describe Divinity as "trappings." Evidence of the disregard you have for things holy, perhaps?
God becoming Incarnate and yet remaining fully Divine is a pretty strong example of God's omnipotence.

Jesus didn't come close to divinity, as Ive already explained.

You've explained nothing, since Jesus is as Divine as can be.

I understand that when discussing the inconsistencies within your spiritual beliefs you would like to shift to your flawed political views. I have no interest in discussing them here in this subsection.

LOL! My spiritual beliefs aren't "inconsistent." But you'll have to admit that 9/11 is pretty good indicator that Islam is not nearly so pure as you would like to pretend here.

Humanity has traditionally reformed itself with the presence of scripture.

Humanity is incapable of reforming itself, as history has proven. But God can reform us.

It has started with a pure orthodoxy and a period of theological expansion and understanding followed by a decay, similar to a life span.

"God's revelation is not just truth to be 'believed in' by mere intellectual or mental assent. It is truth to be participated in...The climax of divine self-disclosure was not in a set of documented religious formulae or theological propositions, but rather in a life -- a human life which could be seen, looked upon and touched...Christ is Word Translated.That fact is the sign that the contingent scriptures (also describable as the Word of God), unlike the Qur'an, may and should constantly be translated...Incarnation is translation. When God in Christ became human, Divinity was translated into humanity, as though humanity were a receptor language."
(Kwame Bediako, Jesus and the Gospel in Africa, 2004, Orbis, pp. 38,39)

the onus is on humanity to reform.

We discovered 2000 years ago that humanity cannot do that. We need God. Your day for realization of that will come.

The Qur'an provides the means and methods to live a better life and walk the straight path.

Not doing a very good job of doing that on your own, though...

What a horrifying proclamation. You don't need to make sense of the essence premise of your religion?

No more horrifying than:

No one can "understand" Allah, that is a given...Understanding Allah is not the ideal, becoming closer to him is.

I'll leave you with this question:
Muslims: Why aren't you Christian?

 

[Bismillah]

So... now you want to reduce God to a problem of logic. And you accuse me of "confining" God...

Stop evading. Jesus was a mortal man. If he is in one place he cannot be in another. That is a fact.

Jesus was fully human, and as such was confined to human form. But God is not confined to merely the Person of Jesus. God is also the Person of the Father. That flushes your argument down the crapper...

And yet Jesus is still confined to mortality. Jesus is a human. Thanks for demonstrating my point that once you lower God to the form of human he loses his divinity, thus you fall back on the "Father" who apparently is more powerful than the son.

Well... again, it is what it is. That's what community is, and that's what it means.

No it doesn't. A community of Christians doesn't mean one being but rather a collection of individuals.

If you're in a real community, you are interdependent individuals...sort of like the Trinity.

Ah yes, no true scottsman...The "real community" and the Trinaty only highlight the inadequacies of your divinity if you demarcate it into specific spheres.

God separated God's Self in three Persons

So God is three equally mortal and fallible people? Man what a foolish and weak God.

t Xy states that God is Being on all levels -- human and Divine; God is not "infused within being" on every level.

You can't tell the statements apart, in fact they have no significant differences. The only real difference is that Jesus is not divine because he is confined to one specific level. Case closed end of story.

Hmmm... it's ok for Allah to be immanent and transcendent at the same time according to you, but it's not ok for God to be immanent and transcendent at the same time. That's quite a theological magic act you've got going there!

Except God is never confined into human form. When God becomes a man then he is limited to mortal realms and loses all claims to divinity.

I never said God isn't transcendent.

God is not completely transcendent.

God can be, if God is in three Persons, only one of which is confined to human form.

Yet Jesus is God...but Jesus is confined to the world so he obviously is NOT God. The "Father" as you call it or the one that "isn't confined to the world" can truly be called God, yes.

(BTW, I guess you're choosing not to address how you manage to confine God to a male identity...)

I did you reply to it three quotes down.

God can be if God is the Father. Which God is. As well as the Son.

LOL. Statement: Jesus if he is in Nazerath then he isn't in Philadelphia.
Response: Jesus isn't but the Father is > Also Jesus is too > Conflicting statements.

One can only get so close to a God who is transcendent...

Obviously, one can never BE God.

The Angel Gabriel says “Each of us has his pass permit. If you step forward Mohamed you will go through. However, if I step forward I will burn from the light of Allah.”

We all are given a level of intimacy with Allah dependent on how far we seek him.

No, I don't.

You state

God is perfectly subjective within each individual

God is subjective? You dare to interpret God? What type of fool attempts to form opinions and understandings of Allah?

I'm not running away. I'm simply leaving you in the theological dust, as you stand there helplessly scratching your head because you can't understand that if God is omnipotent, then God has the power to be both immanently human and Divinely transcendent at the same time.

Glad to know that you are so confident and for leaving me in the "dust", you have yet to sufficiently explain just how Jesus can be divinely transcendent when he is not physically transcendent. He was confined to a time and place, what a pathetic form of God you create?

 

[Bismillah]

I never said Jesus was. I said God was. Jesus is one Person of God. But God also has Being in the Person of the Father. And the Spirit.

And yet apparently a "part" of God is not divine because "Jesus clearly wasn't, as I said the moment you confine God to a mere mortal shell you have placed upon yourself a heavy burden."

Well, how convenient. Allah has no gender...he. A limitation, I guess, of Arabic. Happily, you're not using Arabic here. You're using English. So you're not limited to the constraints of a gender-biased language.

That is a constraint of language. I like how you ignore that the exact same rule is applied for English as well with the dictionary link

"This correlates with English usage as well

He - definition of He by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

2. Usage Problem Used to refer to a person whose gender is unspecified or unknown: "He who desires but acts not, breeds pestilence" (William Blake)."

I wouldn't say they're useless. But they're certainly inferior.

There would be no reason for Prophets and Scripture if God would show himself as a human but if he were to do that he would essentially cut off his transcendence.

This is why Christianity always makes itself susceptible to things such as the Stone Paradox

And I suppose your devaluing of scripture is not surprising given the changing over time of it...

Guess that's why Jesus was the best among us, seeing as how he was fully Divine.

He couldn't even lift a house! He sounds like a Meccan Idol!

No more ridiculous than somebody riding off to heaven on a horse, since horses can't fly...

No, you are comparing two things. I am comparing comparative theology and the idea of God somehow limiting himself into human form and you are comparing divine miracle. Divine miracle comes from an authority who is not confined to the mortal world, I could reply that no more ridiculous of the dead coming back to life but I know this is a divine miracle from Allah.

Except that it is.

Humanity is reconciled? Really?! Then why is there so many immoral plagues sweeping the world. If this is humanity at harmony with God....

Not sure I would describe Divinity as "trappings." Evidence of the disregard you have for things holy, perhaps?

Actually it was word play to poke fun at the idea of a man being God, Shakespeare used such rhetoric you should try it. It also means "qualities"

God becoming Incarnate and yet remaining fully Divine is a pretty strong example of God's omnipotence.

But Jesus was nailed to a cross! He died! He was born! That is omnipotence? Maybe I am omnipotent...

LOL! My spiritual beliefs aren't "inconsistent." But you'll have to admit that 9/11 is pretty good indicator that Islam is not nearly so pure as you would like to pretend here.

Ah yes you have adequately expressed the trinity

It is doubly hilarious that you are telling me that 9/11 is an indicator or reflection on Islam!

Anxiety? Feeling insecure?

Humanity is incapable of reforming itself, as history has proven. But God can reform us.

According to you God came and he went. But we are not reformed. Furthermore this entire business of dying for my sins is odd, what sins did I commit before I was born? I am sorry to say that living is not a sin it is a blessing, it is how you act that determines the merits of your life. Because if I die right now I will go to hell according to you, why couldn't Jesus have did for all my sins, instead of the illogical and unfair sin levied upon my birth ]:

When God in Christ became human, Divinity was translated into humanity, as though humanity were a receptor language."

BINGO! The key being that Divinity shifted into mortality in Christianity! To reconcile the idea of God within the realms of man he must lose his divinity because no man can "subjectively understand God". To subjectively understand Jesus debunks any idea of omnipotence. Thanks Kwame.

We discovered 2000 years ago that humanity cannot do that. We need God. Your day for realization of that will come.

Humanity reforms, that is obvious. There are obvious examples of differences among Humans in their piety and taqwa. The Prophets set the spiritual plane of reformation, to which we ascribe to but can never match. The idea of "reconciling" humanity of God only speaks of associating oneself with God. This leads me to think that once a man dares to strip Allah of his tawhid he has no qualms about associating himself with him!

“That is because Allaah He is the Truth (the only True God of all that exists, Who has no partners or rivals with Him), and what they (the polytheists) invoke besides Him, it is Baatil (falsehood). And verily, Allaah He is the Most High, the Most Great”[al-Hajj 22:62]

Not doing a very good job of doing that on your own, though...

I am doing fine thank you

No more horrifying than:

No one can "understand" Allah, that is a given...Understanding Allah is not the ideal, becoming closer to him is.

I suppose it is a premise in Trinitarian beliefs to lack humility



Before thee We sent messengers to many nations, and We afflicted the nations with suffering and adversity, that they call Allah in humility. When the suffering reached them from Us, why then did they not call Allah in humility? On the contrary, their hearts became hardened, and Satan made their sinful acts seem alluring to them. (Al-Anaam 6:42-43)



In the past, there have also been those who have been haughty, proud, and arrogant. They forgot their fallibility and this pride blinded them to the reality of creation. Of place and purpose of truth and action and they lived senseless meaningless lives indulging themselves in narcissistic pleasures all the while declaiming the harmony and totality of Allah.



Call on your Lord with humility and in private, for Allah loves not those who transgress beyond bounds. Do not mischief on the earth, after it has been set in order, but call on Him with fear and longing in your hearts, for the Mercy of Allah is always near to those who do good. (Al-Araf 7:55-56)


Successful indeed are the believers, those who humble themselves in their prayers... (Al-Muminoon 23:1-2)


The first step to belief and reform is to lower humble oneself. Islam is about submission, submission to truth and rejection of the carnal and base desires of this world. Submission in act, in dress, in finance, and in supplication. When the reality of the order of this world is understood we can realize and realign our actions to walk the path ordained by God.

Muslims: Why aren't you Christian?

The subject of my worship deserves to be worshiped


"I alone am Allâh. There cannot be, is no other and will never be One for worship but Me." (20:14)

I am not required to explain and parse together the conflicting ideas of trinitarian beliefs and finally realize, as you stated

I'm not in the least frustrated by it. I don't need to make complete sense of it.

Clearly monotheism can never be reconciled with shirk.

Thanks for the replies sojourner, I enjoyed it really.

 

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In bible it is written that

"Sarah, thy wife, shall bear thee a son and thou shall call him Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his seed after him. And as for Ishmael I have heard thee: behold, I have blessed him and will make him fruitful and will multiply him exceedingly, twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation." (Genesis 18: 19-20)

This verse is not just proving islam but shia islam